Why did parvos not get a prime protea?

[(XBOX)Cyrex XIII]

Parvos made a deal with the orokin and gained protea as a bodyguard but why isnt she a prime version of her? 

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Vedlom said:

You are speculating that every infested individual used in the warframe project before the Zariman subjects was an Umbra. Which is extremely unfounded as the only Umbra we know of was created by Ballas himself.

Only unfounded because DE had to rewrite the War Within script (yes, War Within, not Sacrifice). In the original draft it was planned to have "Umbra" encompass more than just Excalibur Umbra

2 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

Read the transcript, watch a playthrough of the Quest, replay it yourself. Nowhere is it stated or even implied that Excal Umbra was the first Warframe made.

We don't dig anything out of the ground during that Quest. We spend the whole time fighting the Grineer who are trying to destroy the Grove, annointing the Shrine with Apothics, and fighting the Spectres which result from that annointing.

Regarding Excalibur, I have another post you're probably reading now where I use a key word: subtext. You can make something canon through implications, not just statements

Regarding Titania, yes we do dig them up. Cressa Tal states that we were digging up old Sylvania audio logs even though we don't physically walk up to dig spots and press X to pick them up ("who vandalized this Grove with this message?"). And we get the Titania remains too

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-07-22 at 9:34 PM, TARINunit9 said:

We know when Rhino Umbra was built, before the Z-kids became the Tenno (we literally just agreed on that)

We know that when Rhino X was created the Tenno were not yet Operators ("Tenno" coming from the name of the Zariman 10-0 and not necessarily implying involvement with the Warframe project), yes.

On 2020-07-22 at 9:34 PM, TARINunit9 said:

I look at the "Excalibur Umbra was the first Warframe ever" subtext that the Sacrifice quest is bleeding from the walls

I see no such subtext in that Quest. That is where we differ.

The sequence of events I see related in The Sacrifice (combined with material from The Second Dream and The Silver Grove) is:

• Warframes created
• some Warframes deployed, run amok, and are destroyed
• remaining Warframes consigned to Lua for experimentation
• Tenno consigned to Lua in stasis after Transference Therapy is abandoned
• Tenno become Operators of the Warframes
• Margulis executed
• Ballas betrays the Orokin to the Sentients
• Ballas' old Dax friend discovers the betrayal, and Ballas uses him as host for Excal Umbra

When I put all the material from the Quests together, that's what I get.

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

The sequence of events I see related in The Sacrifice (combined with material from The Second Dream and The Silver Grove) is:

• Warfames created
• some Warframes deployed, run amok, and are destroyed
• remaining Warframes consigned to Lua for experimentation
• Tenno consigned to Lua in stasis after Transference Therapy is abandoned
• Tenno become Operators of the Warframes
• Margulis executed
• Ballas betrays the Orokin to the Sentients
• Ballas' old Dax friend discovers the betrayal, and Ballas uses him as host for Excal Umbra

When I put all the material from the Quests together, that's what I get.

We are at a point where we can respectfully disagree. My read of the Fax soldier is that he discovered Ballas's betrayal very early in the Old War. The Ballas taunts him and says "you think it was that simple? I made my move to play both sides of this war before you were even born" and turns him into Excalibur X. Because Ballas is speaking in three time periods (Umbra's creation, Vitruvian to Hunhow, and present day) about two different sequences of events (early war betrayal and Umbra's creation) things get weird regardless of when Umbra's creation takes place

[OmegaVoid]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Cressa Tal states that we were digging up old Sylvania audio logs even though we don't physically walk up to dig spots and press X to pick them up ("who vandalized this Grove with this message?").

You mean Amaryn.

Edit: found this in the transcript...

"Operator, the Codex system just pulled another voice entry from that Apothic. Allow Ordis to display it for you."

So apparently Sylvana's logs are extracted by the Codex from the Apothic blueprints which Amaryn gives us to craft.

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

And we get the Titania remains too

Unproven. Ordis speaks of scanning the Grove; if the blueprints are the result of his scanning the original Titania's remains, we have no Prime parts to use, even if the Warframe destroyed there was the Prime.

[OmegaVoid]

8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

We are at a point where we can respectfully disagree.

I hope you've found me respectful throughout. 🙂

Interesting quote from The Sacrifice:

Ballas to the old Dax: "Yet you couldn't understand why I'd give my secrets to our enemy. How could I betray my own kind? But you have never had to sacrifice your love for faith. Imagine. To live, forever, with only one memory: seeing the one you love, die."

It's always been assumed Ballas is speaking of Margulis. (Though maybe the devs will throw us another curve-ball and reveal him to have been referring to someone else entirely. 😆)

While in The Silver Grove transcripts, Sylvana says: "My childhood dream has become a nightmare. I don't blame Margulis, she's as much a victim as the children we're working with. At first, the project seemed therapeutic and nurturing. I was myself. But now... Transference therapy is being turned into a weapon. Now I build these vile weapons called "Warframes" all for one purpose: death. I've become everything I hate."

The use of the present tense re. Margulis indicates she was still alive when the Tenno had become the Warframes' Operators.

That's why if Margulis' demise was the catalyst for Ballas' betrayal, the confrontation with the Dax who discovered that betrayal must have taken place after the Warframes were created.

Of course if Ballas turns out not to have been speaking of Margulis, I'll need to reassess things. Oh what a tangled web! 🤣

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, OmegaVoid said:

Unproven. Ordis speaks of scanning the Grove; if the blueprints are the result of his scanning the original Titania's remains, we have no Prime parts to use, even if the Warframe destroyed there was the Prime.

In the past I had always found the "what if Titania Prime degraded?" to be iffy. Then the devs made that cinematic trailer, which shows that Warframes really don't biodegrade. It more or less confirms that yes, there were no Prime parts in the Grove because it wasn't a Titania Prime to begin with. So unless you're accusing Ordis or Sylvania of deliberately omitting the Prime parts...

39 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

It's always been assumed Ballas is speaking of Margulis. (Though maybe the devs will throw us another curve-ball and reveal him to have been referring to someone else entirely. 😆)

While in The Silver Grove transcripts, Sylvana says: "My childhood dream has become a nightmare. I don't blame Margulis, she's as much a victim as the children we're working with. At first, the project seemed therapeutic and nurturing. I was myself. But now... Transference therapy is being turned into a weapon. Now I build these vile weapons called "Warframes" all for one purpose: death. I've become everything I hate."

The use of the present tense re. Margulis indicates she was still alive when the Tenno had become the Warframes' Operators.

That's why if Margulis' demise was the catalyst for Ballas' betrayal, the confrontation with the Dax who discovered that betrayal must have taken place after the Warframes were created.

Of course if Ballas turns out not to have been speaking of Margulis, I'll need to reassess things. Oh what a tangled web! 🤣

This is a good point. Like I said earlier, Ballas and his monologue is all over the place in that quest in terms of the timeline, and now it seems he can't even pin down exactly when Margulis actually died. Then again, by their own admission, Neither can the devs.

In fact I think we should have just asked Steve this whole time whether Excal Umbra came from early or late in the Old War

[OmegaVoid]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

unless you're accusing Ordis or Sylvania of deliberately omitting the Prime parts...

No, just that Titania Prime's destruction there was so complete that putting the physical pieces back together wasn't an option, given that we lack Orokin manufacturing technology.

Instead Ordis pieces the scans he takes together into workable blueprints and we start again from scratch, using our non-Orokin components.

Note that the Silver Grove was New Loka's most sacred shrine, but Amaryn was completely unaware that Titania had died there -- suggesting that the pieces of her which remained were very small indeed.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

No, just that Titania Prime's destruction there was so complete that putting the physical pieces back together wasn't an option, given that we lack Orokin manufacturing technology.

After what happened to Inaros and especially Limbo, I kind of doubt that is a problem for us

[Ender140]

The argument seemed to turn as to if the Primes were also classified as an Umbra Warframe. And why Titania from silver Grove Quest line wasn't a Prime.

In my understanding all the warframes were able to move by their own like Umbra for some time. But the pain brought by the infestation eventually consumes them and "infested madness" takes hold. And so the Primed warframes had to be destroyed or at least restrainted.

There might've been a Protea Prime at some point. But that wouldn't be the frame they'll give to Parvos. The original Protea might've needed to be restrained. Instead a weaker more tamed Variant of Protea was given. Yes I'm suggesting there's 2 different dax soldiers transformed. Or at least a more willing and loyal servant to Parvos instead of a dax. Ofc this one is just my theory.

As to Rhino being an Umbra Warframe. I think what defines the warframes as an "Umbra" is their transference bolt. Umbra is unique in 2 ways. He can still move on his own without an operator. 2 he has memories of his former self. Which comes from having a different transference bolt. Although this isn't completely unique to Umbra.

With the warframe animations, you seem to inherit some of their personalities and skills. Which will explain why we can use their abilities like it's in our nature. And if their memories are traumatizing enough, they seem to carry on like Valkyr. Tho I doubt she remembers where her rage comes from. Umbra's transference bolt seems to be much more aggressive. To the point that the operator confuses Umbra's memories as their own.

As to moving on their own, the warframes can still do it, but not to the lengths of Umbra. As shown in the second dream when your warframe pulls out the sword.

Titania not being a prime might've been just because she died? And we're digging her corpse which can wither, unlike the relics that preserves whatever is inside it. We were only able to get the idea of Titania rather the the complete blue print. If we had found Umbra years before he got destroyed, we might've just gotten a moving regular Excalibur instead of the Umbra we know

[Ender140]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

After what happened to Inaros and especially Limbo, I kind of doubt that is a problem for us

Given that we didn't get Inaros Prime. I think that is a problem to us.

[OmegaVoid]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

After what happened to Inaros and especially Limbo, I kind of doubt that is a problem for us

In Limbo's case, what we get are blueprints. Ordis straight-out says "A Limbo part blueprint! The Theorem wasn't complete malarkey after all." and directs us to craft from that blueprint. The only mention of "parts" is right at the end "Operator, I think I know why we're finding Limbo parts scattered throughout the system. His final rift walk was a miscalc... --disaster." Again, my conclusion is that any physical remains encountered are too fragmented to be repaired. Instead we craft from the blueprints, using tech we have. It's close but no cigar.

We couldn't craft a Limbo Prime until we'd recovered Orokin Relics.

In the case of Inaros, the original Warframe had been replaced by a non-Prime version before we arrive at the tomb. It's not explained when, how, or why, but that's visibly what had happened. We are subsequently able to craft a non-Prime Inaros.

We couldn't craft an Inaros Prime until we'd recovered Orokin Relics.

The Chroma we encounter in The New Strange is non-Prime... it's always remained a mystery where he came from. Unlike Chroma Prime, his carapace looks more grown than built. We let him go after scanning him (a bit irresponsible if you ask me, we don't know who the operator was... he shows in the Codex under Infested faction, so maybe directly controlled by the Hive Mind? I'm honestly perplexed that we left him at large), and we craft a non-Prime Chroma from the scans.

We couldn't craft a Chroma Prime until we'd recovered Orokin Relics.

In Hidden Messages, Lotus detects energy which leads to a Void imprint preserving the memory of Mirage's final battle. She tells us "I recovered something from the memory... a blueprint." Each Void imprint directs us to the next, each yields another blueprint. We never recover anything physical of the original Mirage, just Void Imprints bearing memory-impressions and blueprints. We build, from scratch, a non-Prime Mirage.

We couldn't craft a Mirage Prime until we'd recovered Orokin Relics.

And in the case of Protea, Parvos Granum is given Protea Prime by the Orokin, when they are still on speaking terms.

Granum would of course not have been one of the priveleged few to know that the Warframes were remotely-piloted via Void link... so the Orokin had put a spy at the side of the burgeoning Corpus' leader. (Smells like a Ballas move to me...)

One might ask why the Orokin didn't have Protea eliminate Granum after they fell out. But there's at least one sensible reason for that; the Orokin didn't consider Granum and the Corpus to be a direct threat to their dominance... yet. Having a mole right next to the Corpus leader himself was better than eliminating him and subsequently not knowing what the Corpus were up to at all.

Naturally, after the Corpus came into conflict with the Orokin and were condemned as a merchant cult, Granum could hardly send Protea to the Orokin if she needed repairs. He'd never get her back! And since she was his bodyguard it's not beyond imagining that she'd get damaged...

Alternatively, Gramun may have simply removed her Prime armour because he distrusted the Orokin and suspected it might be bugged...

I reckon he'd also want to have his Archimedians examine the technology to see if they could learn anything from it...

So there's a variety of reasons why Protea Prime's Prime parts had all been replaced by the time she got trashed when Granum's Void drive got overloaded.

Protea herself we never encounter, only the Spectres. We have no Prime parts, so we craft a non-Prime Protea.

We won't be able to craft a Protea Prime until we've recovered Orokin Relics.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

In the case of Inaros, the original Warframe had been replaced by a non-Prime version before we arrive at the tomb. It's not explained when, how, or why, but that's visibly what had happened. We are subsequently able to craft a non-Prime Inaros.

Um, Citation Needed?

3 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

And in the case of Protea, Parvos Granum is given Protea Prime by the Orokin, when they are still on speaking terms.

For someone happy to debate evidence with me, you sure love assuming things without evidence. Isn't it just far more likely that the Orokin just gave him Protea not-Prime? Since they're, you know, Orokin

3 hours ago, Ender140 said:

Given that we didn't get Inaros Prime. I think that is a problem to us.

Why would we get an Inaros Prime? No Inaros Prime was buried there

[Ender140]

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Why would we get an Inaros Prime? No Inaros Prime was buried there

I'm sorry, why would it not be Inaros Prime?

[Lutesque]

Because weaving Lore to match Game Design in a Free To Play game is not easy... its not impossible but you should never ever expect it to happen.

Atleast she got her own Quest... been a while since we had one of those. 

[TARINunit9]

8 hours ago, Ender140 said:

I'm sorry, why would it not be Inaros Prime?

Because the God-King of the Sand People was Inaros not-Prime. That's who showed up on the planet

[Ender140]

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Because the God-King of the Sand People was Inaros not-Prime. That's who showed up on the planet

Inaros Prime was the only Inaros... We call the Primes as such because they're at their best condition. If you go to Baro with Inaros Prime he freaks out because Inaros Prime IS HIS GOD KING that he recognize.

[OmegaVoid]

I'm taking as canon the statement referenced earlier in the thread:

"Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are actual pieces of Ancient Orokin technology. [...] Non-Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are based on Orokin technology, however they are not genuine Orokin articles."

That's what we're discussing, isn't it? Whether there is canon evidence to directly contradict that.

In all cases where the Warframe in a Quest is established categorically to have been Orokin-made or the service of the Orokin, it has been destroyed (Mirage, Titania, Gara) and is not depicted in the Quest.

In the cases of Nidus and Octavia, the fate of the originals is not explored; we are simply given blueprints by the Myconian colonists/Cephalon Suda.

Where the Warframe is encountered in a Quest and is non-Prime, it has been established as having been either separated from the Orokin (Inaros, Protea, Revenant) or has unestablished provenence (Harrow, Mesa, Chroma). Any repairs and replacements made to those Warframes would have come from non-Orokin sources.

So for the canonically Orokin-made Inaros, Protea and Revenant we need to establish means, motive, and opportunity for the Warframe to have been modified after it left Orokin service, and before we encounter it in the relevant Quest.

15 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Um, Citation Needed?

In the Sands of Inaros transcript we have: "Inaros began not as our king, but as our enemy; a warrior of the Golden Skymen."

The Inaros first seen on Mars was a minion of the Orokin, ergo was Inaros Prime.

The Inaros immortalised in stone by the colonists he'd protected, and the Inaros we eventually revivify as the Tomb Protector, was observably non-Prime. Ergo at least the Orokin-made Prime parts, if the not the entire Warframe, had to have been replaced.

Is there any indication that the Prime may have been damaged and need partial or complete replacement?

"By the sand and stars, the Skymen raged. They set upon Inaros with their armies but none could prevail, for he commanded the sand, he commanded death."

I'd say yes. Canonically, the original Titania was completely destroyed by Dax troops, so while Inaros prevailed against "armies" of them, I'd consider it doubtful he did so unscathed.

This reconciles the presence of a non-Prime Inaros in the quest with "Non-Prime Warframes are not genuine Orokin articles." The original Prime Inaros which the Orokin deployed to Mars had to be partially or wholly replaced.

I'll add that if any tech systems in a Warfame are built into the armour and need to function as an integrated whole (e.g. the shield system, perhaps, among others), piecemeal replacement of Orokin parts with non-Orokin wouldn't be viable if the different technologies used were incompatible in any way. (As an IRL analogy, you can't just plug DMX fixtures into a DALI-controlled lighting rig. There's... probably a more everyday analogy, but that's the one which springs to mind. 😊) Complete destruction is not necessarily required to necessitate complete replacement of the armour.

Worth mentioning here, in Vor's Prize, the Ascaris which is identified as Corpus-based tech is able to control the shields of the player's non-Prime starter 'frame.

15 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Isn't it just far more likely that the Orokin just gave him Protea not-Prime?

Since the original Protea was given by the Orokin to an outside agency, it is possible as you say that they made an exception to their normal manufacturing practices, and deliberately created a downgraded version. Though I'm a little dubious on a couple of counts.

Regressing to a previously dead tier of tech is not always as straightforward as you might expect -- once your manufacturing has completely gone over to state-of-the-art stuff, it can be difficult to find anyone who remembers quite how the clunky old-fashioned stuff was done.

And what is special about Warframes comes from some rather vaguely-defined interaction of Void energy with the Helminth strain of the Infestation. None of the manufactured elements of a Warframe -- the armour and tech -- are suggested in the lore to have been revolutionary.

Orokin military tech is a rarity nowadays, but back in the Old War it'd have been everywhere. So for the Orokin to go out of their way to downgrade tech which the Corpus would anyway have seen before doesn't seem likely to me.

Also, Parvos Granum was a sharp customer, and he would certainly have known what Orokin-made products looked like.

If he's expecting something like this...

Spoiler

...and you give him something like this...

Spoiler

...I think he'd notice the difference. I just don't see Parvos Granum happily accepting an observably non-Orokin-tech Warframe from the Orokin.

Yet the Spectre we see in The Deadlock Protocol was observably not created from an Orokin-made Protea Prime. Her armour is visibly non-Orokin. This calls for a plausible explantion, and I provided three.

Well, with Protea you can take it either way. The Orokin could have given Granum a Prime which he later refitted with Corpus-made armour.

Or the Orokin could have given him a downgraded Protea, but also created Protea Prime parts because they expected to later get her back and use her in their own service.

Either way would explain why the Protea Spectre we see in the Quest was made from a non-Prime, and either would explain why we will inevitably be able eventually to retrieve Protea Prime parts from Orokin relics. 🙂

[TARINunit9]

@OmegaVoid

I'm not on desktop, so I can't crop your post right now, but

By your own admission, the Stone Statues in Inaros's tomb are not Prime. Ergo the Inaros who was actually there was not Prime. And as much as it disgusts me to do this, look at the line "a warrior of the Golden Skymen" again. Doe sit say that Inaros was golden? No, just that the Skymen were

I'm not going to claim "Inaros not-Prime came first" this time because it's irrelevant. My point is, the Inaros who defended the Sand People was a not-Prime.

It's like trying to argue "the Myconians in Glast Gambit were wagering a Nidus Prime but the game could only give you Nidus not-Prime because Nidus Prime doesn't exist yet." No, they were wagering Nidus not-Prime

This goes for you too @Ender140

[Ender140]

14 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

@OmegaVoid

I'm not on desktop, so I can't crop your post right now, but

By your own admission, the Stone Statues in Inaros's tomb are not Prime. Ergo the Inaros who was actually there was not Prime. And as much as it disgusts me to do this, look at the line "a warrior of the Golden Skymen" again. Doe sit say that Inaros was golden? No, just that the Skymen were

I'm not going to claim "Inaros not-Prime came first" this time because it's irrelevant. My point is, the Inaros who defended the Sand People was a not-Prime.

It's like trying to argue "the Myconians in Glast Gambit were wagering a Nidus Prime but the game could only give you Nidus not-Prime because Nidus Prime doesn't exist yet." No, they were wagering Nidus not-Prime

This goes for you too @Ender140

You do realize that this implies that the Orokin created a non-Prime Inaros to serve them right? Why would the Orokin bother creating a non-Prime when they have the blueprints and the resources. And with the huge ego of the Orokin.

The lore mentions of the golden sky men (Most likely the Orokins) comes down to abduct their children (most likely for consciousness transfer like what the worm queen attempted to do with us as a form of immortality). Inaros once served them but later turned his back against them. Later they would find his broken metal body and they'll incase it in vases.

The chances of Inaros from the quest existed the same time as did the Orokin is pretty high. Mind you the Orokins had enough to spare to create Excalibur Umbra. Who is essentially Excalibur Prime with a different transference bolt. If you can spot a single non-Prime warframe from the Erra cinematic I might just believe you.

[OmegaVoid]

10 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

By your own admission, the Stone Statues in Inaros's tomb are not Prime. Ergo the Inaros who was actually there was not Prime. And as much as it disgusts me to do this, look at the line "a warrior of the Golden Skymen" again. Doe sit say that Inaros was golden? No, just that the Skymen were

Sequence of events:

• Orokin oppress the Mars colonists
• Inaros Prime deployed to Mars by the Orokin
• Inaros Prime turns against the Orokin (possibly when the Tenno slaughter the Orokin leadership?)
• Orokin send armies against Inaros Prime
• Inaros Prime repaired or replaced using non-Orokin parts due to battle-damage
• Orokin troops cease to appear on Mars (possibly due to collapse of the Orokin empire?)
• Grateful Mars colonists build statues of their saviour -- the non-Prime Inaros protecting them now is their model, as the Prime version has been destroyed

This makes sense to me, and is consistent with the tenet: "Prime Warframes are Orokin technology. Non-Prime Warframes are not genuine Orokin articles."

24 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It's like trying to argue "the Myconians in Glast Gambit were wagering a Nidus Prime but the game could only give you Nidus not-Prime because Nidus Prime doesn't exist yet." No, they were wagering Nidus not-Prime

They weren't wagering anything. We wager our credits to free the Myconians from Nef Anyo.

On successful completion of the Quest, the Myconians give us a Nidus blueprint. Their colony has had it since the Old War. That's all we're told.

We aren't even told where, when, or how they got the blueprint. No direct connection between any version of Nidus and the Myconians is ever established at all.

[TARINunit9]

@Ender140 So the reason we disagree is that you don't think non-Primes existed during the Old War at all. According to the Cinematic Trailer though, they did. Primes and non-Primes existed concurrently.

Now you have asked "Why? Why would Orokin bother making non-Primes at all?" Well, that's where the common theory of "the lore was rewritten since 2014, and Primes actually came last" comes in

@OmegaVoid There's a tiny error in your recollection of Glast Gambit, but it's an irrelevant nitpick as long as we both agree "Nidus non-Prime was with them since the Old War". As for Inaros, the notion of "Inaros Prime was so damaged he degraded into a non-Prime" doesn't sit well with me because a) it feels like a violation of Occam's Razor to me, and b) we're made to believe Tenno in general just curb-stomp the living hell out of Orokin foot soldiers; they would have barely damaged him at all, much less to a degree that's irreparable

[OmegaVoid]

25 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

we're made to believe Tenno in general just curb-stomp the living hell out of Orokin foot soldiers; they would have barely damaged him at all, much less to a degree that's irreparable

As I already referenced, Titania was destroyed by Dax soldiers at the Silver Grove.

Canonically, 'nuff Orokin troops are capable of destroying a Warframe.

25 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

There's a tiny error in your recollection of Glast Gambit

Correct me, please. 🙂

25 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

as long as we both agree "Nidus non-Prime was with them since the Old War".

No, what I'm saying is that we couldn't have created a Nidus Prime from the Myconian blueprint, because we do not have the technology to manufacture Primes from scratch.

We need the original Orokin-made parts to create a Prime, and from the Myconians we received only a bluprint, no parts.

25 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

According to the Cinematic Trailer though, they did.

I repeat what I've already posted ITT regarding the Cinematic Trailer:

The more lore-consistent explanation is that it depicts the Tenno fighting against the rising tide of Grineer domination in the early post-Orokin era.

It does include a female Heavy Gunner, after all. The Synthesis lore implies that female Grineer were cloned from Sectarus Bilsa's genetics, allowing Veytok's rebels to appropriate Orokin technology -- that happens after the Tenno rebellion.

Any remaining Dax who the Orokin twins could issue an order to would have fought for them; after the Grineer became subserviant to the twins, Dax and Grineer would have fought together for the Queens.

The Prime Warframes have been replaced due to battle-damage, and since the Orokin facilities which produced their armour are gone, they are now the Tenno-made versions.

[TARINunit9]

@OmegaVoid Well since you insist: Timestamp 43:45. Glast explicitly says the Myconians, not us and not himself, are wagering Nidus. And he explicitly says that it dates back to the Old War. And the game itself explicitly says that it is NOT Nidus Prime

This is definitive proof, even if it's just to satisfy gameplay restrictions, that non-Primes and Primes existed concurrently

I do retract my statement about the curb stomp though. I have rethought that specific argument and realized it doesn't hold water

[Ender140]

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

@Ender140 So the reason we disagree is that you don't think non-Primes existed during the Old War at all. According to the Cinematic Trailer though, they did. Primes and non-Primes existed concurrently.

Now you have asked "Why? Why would Orokin bother making non-Primes at all?" Well, that's where the common theory of "the lore was rewritten since 2014, and Primes actually came last" comes in

@OmegaVoid There's a tiny error in your recollection of Glast Gambit, but it's an irrelevant nitpick as long as we both agree "Nidus non-Prime was with them since the Old War". As for Inaros, the notion of "Inaros Prime was so damaged he degraded into a non-Prime" doesn't sit well with me because a) it feels like a violation of Occam's Razor to me, and b) we're made to believe Tenno in general just curb-stomp the living hell out of Orokin foot soldiers; they would have barely damaged him at all, much less to a degree that's irreparable

The cinematic trailer also had Excalibur one shot a ship with a bow. It's a trailer for warframe for beginners. Exaggeration might've come to play. And because their for new people, the 3 begginer frames were the ones shown

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Ender140 said:

The cinematic trailer also had Excalibur one shot a ship with a bow. It's a trailer for warframe for beginners. Exaggeration might've come to play. And because their for new people, the 3 begginer frames were the ones shown

There's a difference between "exaggerating what the player can do" and "lying to the player about the story". You would also have to say Glast Gambit quest is non-canon, because it also says that Nidus not-Prime existed in the Old War

(actually that's a bad example, since 80% of that quest is terrible anyway)