Granum Void Droptables seem to not function correctly (No Protea Parts in 60+ runs)

[KnossosTNC]

Welp, after looking up what I had to do, I knew this would go straight to a minimum of 4 out of 5 on my Grind-o-Meter.

And after running two sets of 12 and one set of 18 and still not getting the Chassis Blueprint, I have upgraded that to 5 out of 5, right alongside Ash, Harrow, Ivara and Khora. Congratulations to the newest member of the RNG Torture Chamber Club. Here's your complementary key to the iron maiden, and chalk for the blackboard. Please try to keep the screams down for the neighbours.

Still, I'm going to be patient and keep at it, because I'm stubborn and I like my stubbornness being tested.

[32768]

9 hours ago, stormy505 said:

Its possible to flip a coin and get heads a 100 times in a row. Even if the coin has 50% chance for each result. Welcome to RNGframe.

It is possible but very unlikely. If you have a coin like that most likely this means that coin is gimmicked in one way or another.

While R in RNG means random, and theoretically anything can happen, statistically you can always tell if you are really looking at random numbers or just some regular numbers that aren't random. Sometimes garbage is just garbage and not random numbers, there are specific requirements for RNGs.

I was also seeing this problem, but with wasp instead of protea. I had like 10 heads, 10 chassis, 10 systems and 0 main blueprints. They need to look into their RNG.

[KittySkin]

24 minutes ago, 32768 said:

It is possible but very unlikely. If you have a coin like that most likely this means that coin is gimmicked in one way or another.

While R in RNG means random, and theoretically anything can happen, statistically you can always tell if you are really looking at random numbers or just some regular numbers that aren't random. Sometimes garbage is just garbage and not random numbers, there are specific requirements for RNGs.

I was also seeing this problem, but with wasp instead of protea. I had like 10 heads, 10 chassis, 10 systems and 0 main blueprints. They need to look into their RNG.

As a programmer I can tell you that its VERY common to have this outcomes. While weighted RNG or a token system are the best for me, if you calculate the nearly guaranteed number need, it usually are arround the hundreds.

Im not saying that RNG its ok, as I hate it, but its working as it have to. A good way to fix it could be allowing for trading of each warframe and weapon part (like the new weapons added with protea actually)

[taiiat]

for better or for worse only Digital Extremes has the data scope to tell if it's an outlier or not, i can't say just as much as the next person can't. even if this Thread got to 1000pages long, it'd still be representing not even 2% of the overall samples across the entire Playerbase, alas.
and we wouldn't know if that other 98-99% mostly has similar experiences or not.

 

On 2020-06-13 at 4:46 PM, Jukantos said:

Either the official droptables are bogus (unlikely)

that's quite confident of you. that sheet isn't generated by a robot.

[32768]

1 hour ago, KittySkin said:

As a programmer I can tell you that its VERY common to have this outcomes. While weighted RNG or a token system are the best for me, if you calculate the nearly guaranteed number need, it usually are arround the hundreds.

Wiki lists nearly guaranteed numbers and they are order of magnitude lower than "hundreds".

1 hour ago, KittySkin said:

Im not saying that RNG its ok, as I hate it, but its working as it have to.

No, it's a common problem with drops, open any Warframe page on wiki, scroll down to comments, there will be someone complaining that game doesn't drop one part. They need to look into their RNG and do the maths, because it really looks like it's rigged, which is probably not and it just bugged, but not everyone is going to give them benefit of doubt.

[KittySkin]

23 minutes ago, 32768 said:

Wiki lists nearly guaranteed numbers and they are order of magnitude lower than "hundreds".

No, it's a common problem with drops, open any Warframe page on wiki, scroll down to comments, there will be someone complaining that game doesn't drop one part. They need to look into their RNG and do the maths, because it really looks like it's rigged, which is probably not and it just bugged, but not everyone is going to give them benefit of doubt.

If you consider how many players are and how many encounter problems, you realize that its a VERY low subset from the thousands that play.

Its almost impossible to program a weighted RNG on accident, you can missplace a 0 or a . and make 11 1.1 o 0.1 0.01, but thats not weighted, thats plain typing error and its really common.
I had a problem on an MMO game where a player was doing a quest with 10% droprate for an item (a dinosaur egg). He killed almost 300 of said enemies without a single egg drop. I personally checked the quest script, drop data, manually completed said quest at least 10 times and killed myself almost 1 millon enemies using dev commands in order to gather a LARGE data sample, both from my tests and from other users drop data.
End result: He had a VERY, VERY, ABSURDLY STUPIDLY INSANE bad luck. A day later after I finished every single test and he almost raged against me and the other devs he got the damned eggs to drop, the 100 needed on a row (i guess that he actually killed 150 enemies, but still got the damned eggs).

It was not weighted, it was plain bad luck. RNG are that, and you can have said problems. Here on warframe I myself did 270 harrow system missions till I got the damn piece, while I got khora on 4 sanctuary runs, and a friend of mine had the oposite situation, did hunders of SO runs without khora blueprints, but got harrow on less than 10 runs.
 

The ideal resolution to this would be a weighted RNG system, but IDK how viable its to implement that on DE's drop system algorithm.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

I got it in 8.

Your mathematics fails to consider how likely an unlikely outcome is.

The stats suggest that you’re guaranteed to get a Protea part in 90 runs, or very very likely.

When you roll a dice there is a = chance of any side being rolled. But that perfect symmetry, while being mathematically sound is unlikely. What is much more likely is for one or a small group of numbers getting rolled more than the others.

Rng is frustrating, random and irregular. Practice safe farming, do shorter runs and don’t wear yourself out ❤️

[Jukantos]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb _R_o_g_u_e_:

I got it in 8.

Your mathematics fails to consider how likely an unlikely outcome is.

The stats suggest that you’re guaranteed to get a Protea part in 90 runs, or very very likely.

When you roll a dice there is a = chance of any side being rolled. But that perfect symmetry, while being mathematically sound is unlikely. What is much more likely is for one or a small group of numbers getting rolled more than the others.

Rng is frustrating, random and irregular. Practice safe farming, do shorter runs and don’t wear yourself out ❤️

The dumb part is that an average player who hits every side of the dice once should have Protea after ~27 Runs across all tiers. I've spent nearly 20 hours of 78 runs and JUST got my first part on the 76th run. If the other 2 parts take the same amount of time i will have spent 60 hours on a single Warframe, more than i've ever had to grind for any other frame in the game. We need SOME sort of fallback that just gives you a better chance once you've had everything but X drop a droptable, you should find X within the next 20 runs. Especially when droptables are constructed of items that have absolutely zero repeat value.

[Danielw8]

Did 5 hours one day nothing

Next day in 2hour got all parts

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

I get really, and I mean really, frustrated at the rng sometimes.  I've had some really bad experiences with it that, at least temporarily, kill my love of the game.

Some kind of pity system would be great and I'd love to see one implimented.

However, I can imagine this would be extremely difficult to code and make work.   Essentially, it means customising every drop table to each individual based on their historic drops.   That's a hell of a lot of storage required right there I should think.  And remember, this has to be done in real time.   Now consider doing the mission in a squad where every player has a different history.  Who's drop table takes priority? 

Now I'm not a game dev or know much, if anything, about coding so it may be these are actually simple problems to overcome.   Now think how likely it would be for de to implement this into their spaghetti code without borking the system completely. 

All we can really hope for is that rng is actually rng, and there's not a bug crept in that affects some players and not others.

[Lifsteinn]

1 hour ago, Danielw8 said:

Did 5 hours one day nothing

Next day in 2hour got all parts

I got something very similar.

And I'm here to support the thread, I also dislike the fact of somethings are completely RNG based.

[32768]

12 hours ago, KittySkin said:

If you consider how many players are and how many encounter problems, you realize that its a VERY low subset from the thousands that play.

Its almost impossible to program a weighted RNG on accident, you can missplace a 0 or a . and make 11 1.1 o 0.1 0.01, but thats not weighted, thats plain typing error and its really common.
I had a problem on an MMO game where a player was doing a quest with 10% droprate for an item (a dinosaur egg). He killed almost 300 of said enemies without a single egg drop. I personally checked the quest script, drop data, manually completed said quest at least 10 times and killed myself almost 1 millon enemies using dev commands in order to gather a LARGE data sample, both from my tests and from other users drop data.
End result: He had a VERY, VERY, ABSURDLY STUPIDLY INSANE bad luck. A day later after I finished every single test and he almost raged against me and the other devs he got the damned eggs to drop, the 100 needed on a row (i guess that he actually killed 150 enemies, but still got the damned eggs).

It was not weighted, it was plain bad luck. RNG are that, and you can have said problems. Here on warframe I myself did 270 harrow system missions till I got the damn piece, while I got khora on 4 sanctuary runs, and a friend of mine had the oposite situation, did hunders of SO runs without khora blueprints, but got harrow on less than 10 runs.
 

The ideal resolution to this would be a weighted RNG system, but IDK how viable its to implement that on DE's drop system algorithm.

No, dude, your sh-t is bugged, the bug is just rare, but it's bugged, that's it. Perhaps the bug is that you have sh-tty spots in your distribution where it doesn't meet the requirements.

If someone is telling you that you flipped the coin 100 times and didn't get the tails because you are ABSURDLY UNLUCKY - they are trying to steal your money. Same applies to the dices and other RNG devices. Or maybe they are computer programmers, apparently. But even if they are, this doesn't necessarily means they are not trying to steal your money. You'll thank me later.

Don't get yourself in this mindset: "oh, it's RNG, so anything can happen", no, not anything can happen. If it's RNG then what should happen: it should have specific properties. This is what RNG means, it means it has specific statistical properties, not just "anything".

P.S. On the bright side, if RNG is bugged, then perhaps it can be exploited to get good drops. I was exploiting RNG in MMOs before, but this is not what we want to archieve, right?

[phoenix1992]

Believe it or not 10% does allow for shenanigans. 

[KnossosTNC]

Update: ah, RNG, you cruel, fickle mistress. Three days and 42 runs: nothing. Fourth day: both of the two missing parts in 5 runs.

Still gonna keep Protea in the 5/5 club, though. When I feel the same way having done this as I did when I got the last Khora part, that's how I know it was a right proper grind.

[Circle_of_Psi]

8 hours ago, 32768 said:

No, dude, your sh-t is bugged, the bug is just rare, but it's bugged, that's it. Perhaps the bug is that you have sh-tty spots in your distribution where it doesn't meet the requirements.

If someone is telling you that you flipped the coin 100 times and didn't get the tails because you are ABSURDLY UNLUCKY - they are trying to steal your money. Same applies to the dices and other RNG devices. Or maybe they are computer programmers, apparently. But even if they are, this doesn't necessarily means they are not trying to steal your money. You'll thank me later.

Don't get yourself in this mindset: "oh, it's RNG, so anything can happen", no, not anything can happen. If it's RNG then what should happen: it should have specific properties. This is what RNG means, it means it has specific statistical properties, not just "anything".

P.S. On the bright side, if RNG is bugged, then perhaps it can be exploited to get good drops. I was exploiting RNG in MMOs before, but this is not what we want to archieve, right?

This guy gets it ^

(Even more so with the bold text I put in his quote)

 

Edit: Yeah, got real bad luck lately myself, other pals (IIRC) where able to get insanely lucky, but still about 15 runs now?, only got the Neros, still no other parts, but a ton of gun parts and ship decor (that I'll never be able to get rid of)

[Jukantos]

I ended up finishing my complete Protea set within 25 runs after the 28.0.4 hotfix, totaling my run count to 91 runs for all the parts.

 

I'm not even going to bother to do the math on how unlikely it was for me to get this frustrated, bored, drunk and burnt out over a ~25 hour period across the time since this update's release. I genuinely just want to queue up the 3 day build timer tomorrow afternoon and then literally close the game for a month. If that's the experience you wanted to give players, congratz. My entire hype and happiness over the really great storyline has been eviscerated. Maybe you DO need some mercy switches in your droptables, because at this point i would've simply NEVER bought Protea with platinum out of sheer spite.

[Karonuva]

Something does feel off, I'm doing tier 1 voids and my rewards so far are;
6 Stahlta Reciever
9 Stropha Barrel
8 Stropha Blade
13 Velox Barrel
1 Protea Neuroptics

Sample size isn't the biggest, but protea part seems to be closer to a 5% drop chance than what's actually advertised. Will update occasionally

edit2: Finally got Protea Neuroptics after 37 runs
edit3: Protea Chassis after 7, definitely more reasonable

[Enialyx]

On 2020-06-17 at 11:55 AM, KittySkin said:

I had a problem on an MMO game where a player was doing a quest with 10% droprate for an item (a dinosaur egg). He killed almost 300 of said enemies without a single egg drop. I personally checked the quest script, drop data, manually completed said quest at least 10 times and killed myself almost 1 millon enemies using dev commands in order to gather a LARGE data sample, both from my tests and from other users drop data.
End result: He had a VERY, VERY, ABSURDLY STUPIDLY INSANE bad luck. A day later after I finished every single test and he almost raged against me and the other devs he got the damned eggs to drop, the 100 needed on a row (i guess that he actually killed 150 enemies, but still got the damned eggs).

It was not weighted, it was plain bad luck.

The probability for not getting a 10% drop in 300 tries is: 1.8739277038848E-14.
In percentage: 0,000000000001874%.

Respectfully, it's far more probable that there was a bug and you just didn't find it. RNGs are programs like any other and can malfunction or be designed poorly.

[KittySkin]

4 hours ago, Enialyx said:

The probability for not getting a 10% drop in 300 tries is: 1.8739277038848E-14.
In percentage: 0,000000000001874%.

Respectfully, it's far more probable that there was a bug and you just didn't find it. RNGs are programs like any other and can malfunction or be designed poorly.

The main thing is that theres always a chance to not getting something. RNG its based on electric oscilators from the server so ots NEVER actially random, but its that damn hard to predict that we consider it random.

We used the RNG generator from an already popular library on a server platform based on Xeon architecture (I dislike xeon, but they decided to use it instead of EPYC), considering how low its to also get A LOT of eggs one after another during 100 drops its possible for it not be a bug.

The game its dead since a long time and I still retain its source code so I can recheck it just because the lolz later haha

[Karonuva]

33 runs and still not a single Neuroptics drop

[(PSN)UreekMazino]

seems to be a problem in the latest patch

 

200 runs with no parts is just near impossible

[vegetosayajin]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UreekMazino said:

seems to be a problem in the latest patch

 

200 runs with no parts is just near impossible

No.

Remember in wf you never have 100% chance, it's always 99.99%.
;D


https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FINNER/Warframe_Expected_%26_Nearly_Guaranteed_Numbers_-_An_Explanation

[(PSN)BuzzZaw82]

Hello All

Before even doing any of the runs, I checked several videos on seeing the mechanics, tips, suggestions....and almost all bragged and claimed they were able to get all the Protea Parts in 32-36 runs....I call that B.S or they were just super lucky. We ran Tier 1 last night close to 15 times and no Protea Part...but sure as heck got a lot of Credit Rewards and three of one Gun Part....we're going to continue tonight but after seeing posts here from others doing far more and nothing dropping, it sounds like the Protea Parts fall in a range of 2.0 -2.3% chance and not the 11% chance I remember seeing...but it is what it is and gives me a chance to focus on other Frames and Parts but we're not going to spend our lives farming this over and over with odds like this...

[16Bitman]

I had a pretty good time farming Protea.

Took me ~20 runs for each part.

 

Unlucky people make posts about Protea being super hard to farm, the lucky or average people don't make posts declaring everything is fine.

[Skaleek]

On 2020-06-13 at 4:54 PM, nslay said:

Yep, I do believe something could be wrong with their RNG. I had an experience just like this with getting the Out of Sight Parazon mod from Lech Krill. Though I had to fend myself from a bunch forum trolls. If you can get a large enough sample size, you can do a hypothesis test and post absurd p-values in PC Bugs as evidence of a bug.

Had the same thing happen to me with out of sight. Took 50+ runs.