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De: On Getting Criticism


Cleesus
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Read: http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/14/raph-koster-on-getting-criticism/

If you dont know how to read and only post :(

 

 

If the warframe team hasn't read this yet it might be insightful.

 

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous."

Edited by theclinton
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That's all well and good, some good points there that make sense, but it doesn't give the community an excuse to snark about like whiny little brats, attacking the developers and insulting them. Feedback can be professional, courteous and polite. 

You don't have to call the Dev's stupid in order to say that you disagree with their choices. You just have to say you disagree with their choices, and why. It's really not difficult. There's no need for some of the hostility that plagues this forum.

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That's all well and good, some good points there that make sense, but it doesn't give the community an excuse to snark about like whiny little brats, attacking the developers and insulting them. Feedback can be professional, courteous and polite. 

You don't have to call the Dev's stupid in order to say that you disagree with their choices. You just have to say you disagree with their choices, and why. It's really not difficult. There's no need for some of the hostility that plagues this forum.

I'm not sure anyone is advocating for people to insult the devs. (and they really shouldn't, it's just gonna get a fast lock)

 

You can give negative feedback without being negative...

Err, isn't negative feedback that's more or less "Change this to that" without any reason? (positive feedback being "Change this because X, Y, and Z" or "Here's an idea, and why I think it'd be good")

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Err, isn't negative feedback that's more or less "Change this to that" without any reason? (positive feedback being "Change this because X, Y, and Z" or "Here's an idea, and why I think it'd be good")

Positive feedback right way: DE thank you for "x", I love how "x" feels, how easy "x" is to understand, and how "x" seems to have no blatant bugs or problems with it. I think you should do more things like how you handled "x" system

 

Positive feedback the wrong way: Thanks DE love it, don't listen to anyone else you're doing great!

 

Negative feedback the right way: DE I am displeased with the new "y" system this update, aside from the blatant bugs that "y" has such as -insert bug here- and -insert bug here-, "y" also is quite a confusing system that also seems to punish veteran players for using it. I think "y" should be removed altogether or changes such as -insert suggestion-,-insert suggestion, and -insert suggestion- can be made to make it at least bearable.

 

Negative feedback the wrong way: DE really? really? What we're you guys thinking throwing this system into the game. You obviously didn't test anything and just decided "hey lets throw this out there and see how it goes". Stop making such dumb moves and actually think about what you do before you do it!

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I think I try my best to provide consructive criticism/feedback. That DE doesn't get much love from me is self-inflicted. There is absolutely no need to insult or make things up - the truth suffices.

 

And, yeah. Yes-man are a problem. I think I said that, too. ;)

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"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous."

man... i can't imagine reading thru these forums all day, week, and month and not seeing any positive feed back or good job de posts.  it would be quite depressing and disheartening.  

 

im not saying we should shower them in fanboyish love letters, but saying you like something they did is not useless or dangerous...  there are feedback forums for complaints and constructive criticism.  

 

i think a postive ty thread in general is ok every once in a while.  also, defending something one likes when it is under fire is not wrong.  we all have a right to our opinions.

Edited by Alohoe
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man... i can't imagine reading thru these forums all day, week, and month and not seeing any positive feed back or good job de posts.  it would be quite depressing and disheartening.  

If you read the article/post, it says saying "You did great and are perfect!" is the harmful, not saying "This is great because X, and I'd like to see more things like it!" But yes, threads saying "Great job DE, everything is fine!/Perfect update!" ARE harmful as they provide no useful feedback, just like complaint threads that don't explain why what they dislike is bad.

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That's all well and good, some good points there that make sense, but it doesn't give the community an excuse to snark about like whiny little brats, attacking the developers and insulting them. Feedback can be professional, courteous and polite. 

You don't have to call the Dev's stupid in order to say that you disagree with their choices. You just have to say you disagree with their choices, and why. It's really not difficult. There's no need for some of the hostility that plagues this forum.

Agree! Well said.

 

Overall I've found that *in game* the Warframe community is largely better than the other games I've dabbled with, namely MWO, Firefall, and League of Legends.

 

I've *never* had a griefer problem, and only rarely have I encountered someone who talks trash or is unsporting in game. With LoL I'd say that every other game has at least one problem-player (although I will admit that since each LoL game is 10 people, the sample size is much higher and therefore more likely to be subject to community problems) and MWO (again, 24 player games) has probably a problem-player every game. Some games you get an entire problem team (KaoS, I'm looking at you.)

In Warframe, I'm actually very pleased with the people I run into. I can open up region chat and scout for teammates if my group is offline, and reliably get players that I can enjoy dealing and communicating with.

Whenever I join a PUG game in progress, normally the people I find will be willing to casually use in-game chat and will typically help if you need and request it, and furthermore will stick to a strategy and work together if an overall gameplan is sketched out. This is really only for defense PUGs, needing a strategy, but it happens often enough.

 

Now, for the FORUM community... It's very interesting to me that there's such a huge disconnect between the type of people you find on the forums *talking* about the game when compared to the players actually *playing* it.

I suppose that this could be due largely in part to the fact that players who *are* happy with the game don't even bother opening those threads.

I imagine that could lead to a lack of support during these threads, lmao.

Many of the forum users are actually very unpleasant to deal with, and reading what they have to say just brings a palm to my face.

 

There are countless, COUNTLESS threads and posts posting what falls miserably short of legitimate criticism, and a decent enough amount containing vitriol towards DE and the game. Every thread with a strong negative title will instantly draw the other like minded, cynical and oftentimes ignorant forumdwellers together, where they'll post their universally negative opinions for several pages worth.

 

There are some threads with real criticism and well said ideas and potential tweaks, but I feel these are in the minority.

For the most part, these "criticism" threads are full of ignorance. I don't understand how people can get so upset over such tiny, trivial things. If you don't like the game, don't play.

Edited by jaywalker
removed insult
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There are some threads with real criticism and well said ideas and potential tweaks, but I feel these are in the minority.

For the most part, these "criticism" threads are full of ignorance and stupidity. I don't understand how people can get so upset over such tiny, trivial things. If you don't like the game, don't play.

Problem also here is that what might be a good and thoughtful post of criticism to me might not be that for you but it doesn't mean it is wrong on either side. This is what we all forget and it is good that we have people with different opinions and ideas and it helps to expand the approach that may be taken.

Your last line though is the worst of way to approach anything. It enforces arrogance and ignorance at best. Think about it, if you would say that to all your players and none of them would like your game, would you still be able to develop that game or would you be forced to shut it down? Furthermore isn't beta testing and giving feedback kind of the idea in this game for example.

Yeah it involves both good and bad criticism. What should be improved upon as a community though, applies to myself as well, is the way we do criticism and like you said, the threads tend to attract similar minded players to there but it may also be the result of majority walking the same path rather than just the fact that they necessary attract only people with similar thoughts.

On part of criticism, Hazmatzone gave a good example how you should do criticism. The only problem in that is thought that not everyone is good at making up solution, not even bad ones. Should that kind of criticism be ignored? Of course not, in fact it at least implies that something they mentioned is not working like it should be according to their experiences. It is not as good as providing solutions and you have to figure them out by yourself, but it still is good feedback as long as it makes sense and is justified for right reasons.

Lastly and the hardest part (Directed to DE) is to figure out whose feedback has the most value, there is no rule, no correlation whose feedback is the best possible solution. A slightly badly written idea might be a better solution than fully detailed one and there isn't any way to tell whose feedback is the most valuable. You have to pick one or do a median out from all of the suggestion and hope for the best, if you don't succeed at the first time, try again and also try to ask why your attempts possibly failed. It doesn't mean you did bad work or that people don't appreciate the effort. Most cases it just means there is something that is not working and implementing things may even come up with flaws that were not foreseen before your system got implemented.

Edited by BETAOPTICS
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Read: http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/14/raph-koster-on-getting-criticism/

If you dont know how to read and only post :(

 

 

If the warframe team hasn't read this yet it might be insightful.

 

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous."

 

"The criticism that is useful is that which helps you do it better."

 

DE needs to read this blog post. No matter how much they think they know their stuff.

Edited by yiron
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There's another problem. If you consider every critiscism valid. Then you can't do anything. Looks at the forums, people disagree with Mag remake where I agree (without defending DE). If both criticisms are valid. What do you do ? Offer 2 spells on each slot ?

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There's another problem. If you consider every critiscism valid. Then you can't do anything. Looks at the forums, people disagree with Mag remake where I agree (without defending DE). If both criticisms are valid. What do you do ? Offer 2 spells on each slot ?

That's not how critique works. More than one person can be right about a subjective thing, but solutions need not marginalize one side over the other.

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The other problem I see is there's a lot of guy to critiscize when the others are just playing the damn game. We're only a minority here. A game ruled by a minority is not the greatest move ever. Since we don't have any statistical data, we can't really tell what's really wrong or not.

 

For example, I find that the revives things should be linked to the current level rather than the warframe. So you can't die more than 4 times in a mission, but you can play every other missions with 4 lives refilled by default. The current system is very noob unfriendly.

 

The thing is. I can't prove that this system IS wrong. I can't know how much revives has been bought. If it's a good source of income. Well, then it could be a good system.

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In science and perhaps to a lesser extent philosophy, it can sometimes be much easier to define something by what it isn't, as opposed to what it is. In giving feedback, the same can certainly be applied.

 

But, there's a catch.

 

For developing something like a game, it is important not to focus solely on what is bad or needs changing. While a good portion of your feedback should ideally be something like this, positive feedback can serve as crucial reinforcement into what your users would like to see more of. An element on the periodic table is much easier than a person's opinions/tastes to define by opposites, as it is far more static than the chaotic nature of the human mind. Humans can have absurd and unpredictable conditionals as to when something is appropriate to them, while elements are bound to the laws of nature. And while those laws do give ample room for unpredictability, nothing compares to the fickle, self-serving nature of the human mind.

 

Point is, if you only tell someone what they are doing wrong, they will avoid doing wrong. But avoiding wrong is inherently different from seeking what is not wrong. If you give both negative and positive feedback, they will do both.

 

It is also important to remember that the folks at DE are still human. Humans are flawed. Humans cannot work on a huge number of things simultaneously. Humans tend to work slower than one would expect. But a human is still a being of intelligence that deserves to be respected.

 

Just my two cents on the issue of feedback.

 

On the topic of the community, I'm pretty much in alignment with a lot of the things Mr. Gohae has been saying in this thread. A seemingly vast majority of the community has been behaving in a fickle, paranoid, cynical, and quite frankly childish manner for the past several weeks. It should be no surprise that DE started putting their foot down about useless feedback and personal attacks. Quite honestly I'm far more surprised that they didn't do it sooner.

Edited by DroppedaBeat
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I think communication would at least be preferable. I know we have active staff members in the forums, and livestreams, and all that good stuff-- but none of those ever actually talk about the stuff people are interested in. The players absolutely hate vague responses, because it sounds like the staff is hiding things from us, and.. that's not cool, you know? If you ( DE ) have reasons for certain mechanics being the way they are, it would help the community if you could actually come in here and explain what those reasons are.

 

As a beta forum, we're helping you make this game grow. We make suggestions, we give feedback, and you use it. It would help us to help you if we actually had all the information necessary to fill in those blanks. What we need is staff that actually has information about the game's development ( because it's equally unsatisfying to hear someone who's part of your PR team telling us "I don't know the answer for that, I'm not part of that team" ) to be here, in the forum, doing consistent Q&A sessions with the people here in the forum.

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I think I try my best to provide consructive criticism/feedback. That DE doesn't get much love from me is self-inflicted. There is absolutely no need to insult or make things up - the truth suffices.

 

And, yeah. Yes-man are a problem. I think I said that, too. ;)

Yeah, I've tried too many times to count to provide civilized constructive feedback on various systems within the game from networking protocols to minimum game spec statement revision to suggesting improvements to their support department (which I also do for my job and have hundreds of awards for customer service).  You know what has happened?  Nothing.  I've even written directly to the their staff here on the forum and they'll respond back in a manner to make you think they actually cared about the feedback, but they really don't care.

 

Now, I agree with Ced23Ric on some points, but I also disagree with him on others.  And this actually applies to a few other posters in this thread as well.

 

1.  I've tried to give constructive feedback identifying the problem, and if possible, a solution that resolves it.

 

2.  DE is getting much less support from me the longer they allow old major issues like not following networking ISO standards (reason for NAT issue).

 

3.  Even though I completely agree that "personal" insults are not "nice".  They can also burst a person's "ignorance bubble" and in a way, force that person to fully engage with the person that made the insult(s).  Granted, this is not the ideal way to begin a constructive discussion, but it is still a viable communication medium.  People are generally the most honest when they are upset and don't hold anything back.

 

4.  As for Yes-men/Fanboys/Worshippers... I don't agree 100% that they are useless.  I do agree 100% that they do not promote the continual improvement process that every technology professional knows and follows if they have any common sense.  However, those Fanboys/etc. do "stroke" the developers' egos back to health after the verbal/written bashing by the testers/players reporting on what isn't perfect yet.

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The other problem I see is there's a lot of guy to critiscize when the others are just playing the damn game. We're only a minority here. A game ruled by a minority is not the greatest move ever. Since we don't have any statistical data, we can't really tell what's really wrong or not.

Well, we are just more helpful than the ones that just ragequit and go play TF2. It's reasonable to assume that the issues causing ragequits are the same.

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I think I try my best to provide consructive criticism/feedback. That DE doesn't get much love from me is self-inflicted. There is absolutely no need to insult or make things up - the truth suffices.

 

And, yeah. Yes-man are a problem. I think I said that, too. ;)

Maybe some day I will be a problem too.

 

But the blog that guy wrote is pretty much common sense.

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Maybe some day I will be a problem too.

 

But the blog that guy wrote is pretty much common sense.

You should make a correction there to say "is pretty much something that should be common sense." Edited by jaywalker
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