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WingR84

Is there even a vision for Warframe?

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Lets try to make is "as short as possible" and break it down to the point: Why are we even playing Warframe?

 

I started like 2 years ago and thx to all those unvaults i got everything that gives MR xp (and no.. i dont have the founders pack for those who cant focus on the topic itself).
For the longest time i always had those goals:

1) get stronger
2) build setups that i enjoy
3) get higher MR for standing per day/free stuff from syndicates)

Since over a year i got the feeling that DE Devs dont even play their own game and have almost zero understanding of what makes Warframe fun/challenging and have come to the conclusion that "rework or reuse tilesets, add new drops and call it content" seems their way to go, because those who buy plat are the new players and not those who got lots of plat and nothing left to do (those are just there for inflation.. they need new buys to get RL money).

I'm losting the vision that warframe has... if there even is one.
 

Problems that i see:

-MR29 to 30 might need 2 years...beacuse there are not enoth

-New things are ALWAYS behind massive grind walls. Remember the "good old days" when you had to kill a boss that had a 33,33333% dropchance for any part? With Protea we're not at the 11,111% chance that also needs you to do some other things to even "enter the lottery" that is just a little bit better than Lichweapons pre "you have to run about 40 times to get the last kuva weapon on a lich.. now enjoy killing him..."

- Storys takes WAAAAYYYYYY to long to even be relevant anymore.

The two part story of DE and Warframe on Youtube has two moments where Spacemom and Steve are saying why others said that they will fail and they managed to avoid it for a long time... but it seems that they've forgoten about this very basic problem: https://youtu.be/UOE6528pwFc?t=1491

 

What i really dont understand is how DE is working in itself, because it shouldnt be a problem to start the same missions (like they always do it) with a different starter level of the enemys... and then just add some stuff to the drop pool. Again we're talking about this for months... hard more still isnt there and they dont even know what drops there should be. I mean you would kill us with dropchances and i would pref tokens and a shop somewhere to a "alternative universe" with the same stuff... but in harder... " and just make Wraith and Vandal weapons there. Just a little reskin and some changed numbers... THIS shouldnt take longer than a month and would take us weeks to complete.

What did we get? Well... i got the new weapons the first day...I will buy the frame, because the dropchance is to low for me. Seems DEs wish for plat inflation is working... but i wonder how many peoplers they will lose if they dont remember THEIR VERY FIRST PROBLEM, because if there isnt anything to do... people will quit.

 

Once my nightwave is at 30... i'm also gone. Not because i really dont want to play... but the way DE is releasing unimpressive (mostly buggy) grindfests has done his work on me.
If you see "the vision" then please tell me about, because i dont think that it's worth to play a game anymore that releases 3 frames per year (that you can just get if you take a long break) and then some reworks that force you to replay stuff that you finished long time ago. Ok for new players that still got things to do... but for me i wish they would FINALLY release the Tao system and those purp aliens that you can grind standing for (in the hope that there might be something to do that means content for more than 2 days)

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They tried releasing content that lasted for two days with the lich and y'all complained about how long it took.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

They tried releasing content that lasted for two days with the lich and y'all complained about how long it took.

Hey I was complaining about the automatic death being stupid and causing ludonarrative dissonance thank you very much.

...Personally though I'd rather if something lasted two days by need rather than RNG abuse.

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I'm fine with the liches as is, I am not fine with the "waste 5 forma" mechanic on those weapons. but tbh, I dont mind warframe not constantly being on my mind. helps me playing other games I do enjoy.

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35 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

They tried releasing content that lasted for two days with the lich and y'all complained about how long it took.

Its boring, they dont even make it interactive or change up the murmur things its always the same thing which ends up making me question my sanity as why Im doing some stupid thing for hours for this lich. Hell I even wouldnt mind if they had it timegated for 5 days but have the missions we do be like sorties, and not go in mission look for thralls and pew pew poke, its so brindeading like seriously how do people stay sane after that, I had a few liches for mastery to get to 28 and I found myself so bored

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vor 13 Minuten schrieb Takkov:

I'm fine with the liches as is

congratulations that you're fine with Lichs "as is" after them changing the original grind to a tolerable level.

i mean i'm done with it and the "you can see what weapon you get before you kill the lich spawner" but it's still terrible if there are almost no players and you get a planet with some really bad missions on it and dont have other people that take you into "their" missions to unlock the 3 symbols in a way that doesnt force you to play spy missions spawn your Lich to die and spawn another "red planet" that has missions that at least make sense to play.

As i remember... Europe, Venus, Earth and the 3rd starter planet (because you have to go to Mars) are the worst planets for your lich to take, because of the low numbers of "good missions".But that wasnt my main point...

How many times did you had to go to the open world areas now to fish/mine or do missions for nightwave?
Do you really want to do 3 more rescue missions or some other stuff that you've finished months ago... just to get yourself 4500 standing for your Ubra Forma?

The hardmode will AGAIN be the next version of "replay the same stuff" because DE for some reason cant create new stuff fast enoth... while still beeing a big studio and owning the (for a long time) 4th most played game on steam that made MONEY FOR YEARS TO COME.

 

What comes next?
I think in about 2-3 months we get another prime....
hardmode is also on the way... (they still dont know about rewards).

 

Unknown release for Tao system and Corpus Railjack... abd "The New War" turned into "the Cold War"

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They wont, that's the thing with a looter when you need to stretch it, there always be something new and since pvp was poorly implemented, the general goal here its just power creeping over the content.

 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

They tried releasing content that lasted for two days with the lich and y'all complained about how long it took.

Go back to twitter with that attitude, "...and ya'll complained...".

Liches were a complete compromise on the whole nemesis system concept because DE decided to not only tie in weapon loot with them, but had the mind boggling idea to make a Lich only ever have one weapon for its entire life. And that's before completing watering down every moment of a Lich's conception. There is no dramatic mutilation and there is no good lore reason to target a Larvling. There is no process of characterization, and there is no personal investment into the Lich. They are created, they appear immediately upon ship return with a quick introduction line and an exaggeration on how we killed them, and then we grind out missions while occasionally seeing them to test out the requiem combination until they are defeated and killed or inexplicably converted. Ranking up means nothing in the narrative. There is no personal growth or variation, there is no real sense of adversity, it is just a source of Kuva weapons and cosmetics against two simple possible personalities.

DE Steve once responded to someone asking about this by mentioning that because the Kuva weapons were tied to Liches, that they condensed the experience against a Lich to a possible couple of hours rather than weeks to months of build up. He was completely stuck in that perspective, and his answer was not helpful. DE Sheldon and Rebecca did immediately try to clarify the question to him and give a better response, but it was still pretty empty.

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I play Warframe 'coz I enjoy playing it. Actually, every player (ever) plays mostly the games he enjoys. Problem with Warframe is that ppl do some things, they burn out and complain, then they quit. I barely have time to play WF so I have tons of things to unlock or enjoy and believe me I've been around here since Closed Beta, but some days I have enough and I need a break, I understand why the situation with majority of Tenno is like that.

Story-telling is lacking I agree.
End-game is missing I agree.
PvP would be lovely but they gave up on it.
Conent islands and content dilution is real.
Grind is hard.
RNG isn;t helping.
Many mechanics and features need reworking.

Time and money are lacking too, we can;t forget normal ppl like us are making this game.
Fortunatelly, there's tons of conent for everyones liking.... eidolons, orbs, open world maps, syndicates, ESO, Arbitrations, Railjack, Focus, Liches, Dojos, Orbiters, fashion-frame, Index, Rivens etc.

Once u sink in it's ez to lose ur sense of real life and forget to take a break once in a while.
Warframe has it's problems, I don;t try to defend it but devs are willing to make up for their mistakes. I am glad for that! Patience is your answer if you are not sure about "the game's vision".



 

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3 hours ago, WingR84 said:

Remember the "good old days" when you had to kill a boss that had a 33,33333% dropchance for any part?

I remember the "good old days" when bosses weren't guaranteed to drop any parts, and even when they did it was possible for them to fall out of the map and become inaccessible due to being physical objects rather than a mission reward. Bear in mind that this was also back in the pre-Vacuum, Damage 1.0 times when assassination missions were actually a fairly lengthy affair.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Hey I was complaining about the automatic death being stupid and causing ludonarrative dissonance thank you very much.

...Personally though I'd rather if something lasted two days by need rather than RNG abuse.

Dannnng...bringing it like a boss with “ludonarrative dissonance”.

Aldain’s point is that, yes, we get that ultimately DE wants to keep us all playing so that a certain % of us will keep PAYING, but how does DE’s Vision make sure that LCD game design doesn’t cause Warframe to devolve and decline?

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73

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vor 24 Minuten schrieb Corvid:

I remember the "good old days" when bosses weren't guaranteed to drop any parts, and even when they did it was possible for them to fall out of the map and become inaccessible due to being physical objects rather than a mission reward. Bear in mind that this was also back in the pre-Vacuum, Damage 1.0 times when assassination missions were actually a fairly lengthy affair.

That was more a reference to how people get their first frames (because "normal planet" frames drop like this) compared to how you have to farm for the new releases, because in theory it's sometimes easier to get prime frames.

To put this into perspective for 4 people using the same relic:
0 Radiant, 4 Intact 7.76%
4 Radiant, 0 Intact34.39%

A single radiant relic has 1 10% dropchance... that is almost the same chance that you have when you try to farm Protea parts (she has like 11,1111% per part).

It wouldnt be so bad to farm it if i would do other things while doing it (like newer players) and if they would drop the correct void traces (and not only 10 if you not roll the 2000 credits).

Maybe you should just be honest with yourself and take it for what it is... they make it hard to farm so people have to play more to up the gametime on steam, just like when they added nightwave to make people log in and play old stuff to get the Umbra Forma. If there wouldnt be the nightwave going on right now.... i wouldnt even play.

 

It REALLY makes me wonder how a studio with over 300 employees needs so much time for things like this, because hardmore shouldnt take more than 2 days for ONE dev.
Step 1: Copy the old missions
Step 2: Edit the name of the files and change the "rule" for the level that enemys spawn with by "+50" or "+100"   (no new code needed... just change those numbers)
Step 3 Add them to the starmap using the scipts that they have in place (you unlock arbi once you finished everything and nightmare if you finish the whole planet... just add these missions to those rules)

 

I mean... let us open relics like this. If you start with +50 levels at the start you get better rewards, just like when you would stay in a survival for over 2 hours you get a fully buffed relic every 5 and more traces because of a bonus. WHY is that so hard to extend the game with rules that are already in the game? How bad does your own code have to be that you can not reuse/copy your own code?

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5 hours ago, WingR84 said:

For the longest time i always had those goals:

1) get stronger
2) build setups that i enjoy
3) get higher MR for standing per day/free stuff from syndicates)

Since over a year i got the feeling that DE Devs dont even play their own game and have almost zero understanding of what makes Warframe fun/challenging and have come to the conclusion that "rework or reuse tilesets, add new drops and call it content"

Now, what do you see as fun/challenging in the first place? I find warframe the most fun for breaking the mold of mainstream games where you grind eternally for that legendary 5 star gear with the biggest gem bonus and enchantment to fight the boss. I think warframe is only one of few games that let you beat all content with any gear provided you have knowledge and skill to do it where you can finish level 100 enemies with braton that by mainstream games is impossible because it's status as starter weapon, that's what I find fun

For challenging? All other games do is increasing the numbers

- increase health

- increase defense

- increase attack

- increase speed

With our power, how do make things challenging without nerfing because it's "disrespectful to players efforts and investment" and how do you make it challenging when a slightly spongy boss instantly dismissed as bad design in warframe but at the same time praise the same model on other games to death? How do you make it then?

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I've been playing since Damage 1.0, Melee 1.0, and Parkour 1.0. I've been playing since Akbolto was the most expensive and laborous weapon to obtain (I used to think of it as my "big gun, only it's two guns," until I realized it had become midtier compared to other things in my arsenal). And... the game's more fun than ever. Not only is the parkour more interesting, not only did Melee 3.0 combine the good aspects of 2.0 with the good aspects of 1.0 (I can spam ground slams again! And now they're more awesome than ever!), but there are new mission types, new game mechanics... we've got Archwing. We've got modes that integrate Archwing with ground stuff. We've got Railjacks. When Fortuna came out we got HOVERBOARDS.

 

We've got bosses that come in all shapes and sizes (Vay Hek went from being a normal looking Grineer to being a VTOL that turns into the head of a mecha!). We've got fishing and mining... could they add more? Yes. Will they? Most likely. They JUST ADDED MORE CONTENT. We just got a patch a few days ago! What, did you already finish all of the new content?

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Archone:

They JUST ADDED MORE CONTENT. We just got a patch a few days ago! What, did you already finish all of the new content?

They added 3+1 weapons and 1 frame
I did the quest and then ~10 runs per coin level that took me about 5 minutes each.

I didnt get the frame parts (people said bugged right now?)... but since i have all the weapons and the drop chance for part's 11%... i will buy her with plat that i got from selling other things. The ironic part is... it makes a lot more sense to use vaulted relics and try to complete 3 framesets to sell (and then buy the new frame) than farming the frame and wait 3.5 days to build the frame.

But hey.. i have the plat anyway.. so i just buy her if i should come back. It's not like there is anything to do with her and i will not reach MR30 this year anyway... what is the point of playing anymore?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, WingR84 said:

Why are we even playing Warframe?

Because it's fun, and when I no longer find it fun I'll stop playing.

It's a game, you don't have to think too hard about this.

Edited by schilds
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Posted (edited)

When you look at the achievement on steam and see that only 8,6 have done the war within or caught 10 fish for example, or 11,2% that crafted 5 or more warframes, 6,3% that have done 3 or more sorties, i think their player retention isn't so great. It doesn't count the console market but since we talked about one of the 4th game most lucrative on steam...
My point is, they probably do most of their money from new players that try the game, get excited by all the content available, get a few plat for impulsive buy. Then they play a little more and realize that everything is a grind, most of the content is the same thing just painted differently and if you want anything from this game, you either burn yourself playing it or you buy your way with plat.
Every year you get a batch of teenagers discovering videos games and oh, there, this one is (almost) free which is cool when you don't have so much money yet. Add a few veteran gamers that look for something new/they didn't played yet and you get most of the current players of warframes.

Myself, i really like the setup. Lorewise that's said. A lot of mistery around it, you don't understand everything (also because the game doesn't show you much about it). And gameplay wise, at its core, it's fun. Jumping and dash around while slashing things into pieces.
But i really feels like this game (and the devs) have lost its way, its vision. There is so much things that contradict each other that i don't even know where to begin. I'll try to point out, a few of the issues i see :
- It constantly pushes you to rush things, yet constantly slow you down with either meta-mechanics like standing limit or mechanics like invulnerability, stagger/self-stagger, winding level design and such. Not to mention the crafting time that is obviously an incentive to buy plat.
- The disparity in difficulty. Most of the content is trivialized when you get level and unlock new weapons. But there are still things that simply one shot you if you don't pay attention/aren't quick enough, which is hard when a lot happens on (and off) screen. And i'm not talking about boss mechanics. This is also tied to the previous point.
- A large part of its interest being in collecting and trying new stuff, yet, because of rng and time-gatting, constantly tempts you to buy the things, killing half of the interest. The other half being taken away by the fact that most of the weapons (and frames in some extent) feel useless when some you probably got already just wipe the floor in comparaison. You can tie it again to the previous point, where some combo makes it really tedious to play while an other one makes it easy as f.
- An other interest in the game is to gain mastery rank so you can unlock and play new content that you might enjoy. But then, to do so, you need to play with things and do content that may not brings fun. If it was an option or a necessity from time to time, it would be fine, but unfortunatly, it is in the core of the game.
- Having open world to chill in but no reason to do so since most of it is tied to mission's objectives (and it doesn't want you to chill anyway since it keeps sending things to kill you/push you back)

- And then, the big contradiction that DE brought themself to is between the BUGS and the new content. Constantly releasing new stuff to keep people engaged into their game while negliging important bugs ends with people complaigning no matter what. And i'm not talking about small bugs, but really game breaking one, like being teleported out of the map, glitching through wall/floor, items dropping out of reach, enemies able to stomp you to death in a second from glitching out, not enough enemies to finish a mission, etc. It also hinder the fun you get from new content, no matter what is this content

Again, not a exhaustive list of the things that i believe are contradicting in the game.
I wonder what we'll think about DE when the Warframe adventure will end. In the long term, it may be a suicide.

P.S : I'm tired, english isn't my native language and wrote this as it went.

Edited by Tonelyon
tipo
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IMHO

Story is faster than it should be;

There's no big reason to achieve the highest MR. Rank (and maybe that's a problem);

The new Protea farm is ok 'cause I think it's fun. So my conclusion is ok to grind if the grind is fun to play. 

To me, seems like you want to rush everything, not even a week after protocol launch and you are already "hey 11 ish drop chance is too low"... "Massive"? I don't agree with that.

Btw, reworking on old stuff is one of the formulas that makes Warframe still being a great game today, if you check is early years you would see that it looks nothing like today. The work DE do on reworking tile sets, UI, UX, Graphics, Lighting is one of the things I love 'cause every other game would just milk it and make a 2.0 so you would lose all your progress and start all over. Imagine a new player TODAY, playing Waframe from 5 years ago? 

 

We might agree tho that they need a way to make the content more rewarding, better and different mechanics both for bosses and regular enemies, they need to create some fun replayable "endgame" for veterans and also add NEW stuff on new and existing content (it's a waste to let 2 huge and cool open world areas just for the "I'm going there to complete nightwave").

While I think we need some platinum sink, I don't think putting timer on crafting stuff still a great idea. I rather have harder materials to farm then wait 3 ish days even if I take the exact same time to farm it (at least I would have a sense of achievement).

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Posted (edited)
Citation

 Imagine a new player TODAY, playing Waframe from 5 years ago?

I first played the game 5 years ago, stopped after reaching mr 8 i believe. When i returned a month ago, i thought "Wow, this game really gained depth" but then i ended up thinking what i stated previously
 

Citation

realize that everything is a grind, most of the content is the same thing just painted differently

I mean, it's not to dismiss the job done by the art department, the game looks great. But a change in graphics doesn't make everything.
And, fyi, Witcher 3 was made with roughly 250 employees (150 at first) in 4 years

Edited by Tonelyon
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Honestly there are not much content that even requires one to get the best mods in game. This means that they need to integrate some better content to fully utilize the mods already in game. Only a few boss fights require full builds, Eidolons and Profit Taker. If not you might be in it for the long haul. I don't see any other mission content that requires anything more, which is sad.

The only time I feel content is worthy of fully ranked mods is when my Frames life depends on it to survive.

The direction many Vets have asked for is challenge. So far Deadlock, Railjack, Fortuna, can Plaines of Eidolon have been catered to beginning players. It would be nice to have dungeons in the Open World where only the most skillful and elite players will enter because of the difficulty. This could be due to cool downs on abilities, spamming locks, enemy scaling and mechanics function differently. So many options.

I would believe that after 2-3 years of grinding investment there would be some content players can use their skills acquired along that journey, instead of just for RNG grinding.

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11 hours ago, WingR84 said:

Why are we even playing Warframe?

Edgy "hot take" is so cold, people are farting snow

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12 hours ago, WingR84 said:

Lets try to make is "as short as possible" and break it down to the point: Why are we even playing Warframe?

 

I started like 2 years ago and thx to all those unvaults i got everything that gives MR xp (and no.. i dont have the founders pack for those who cant focus on the topic itself).
For the longest time i always had those goals:

1) get stronger
2) build setups that i enjoy
3) get higher MR for standing per day/free stuff from syndicates)

Since over a year i got the feeling that DE Devs dont even play their own game and have almost zero understanding of what makes Warframe fun/challenging and have come to the conclusion that "rework or reuse tilesets, add new drops and call it content" seems their way to go, because those who buy plat are the new players and not those who got lots of plat and nothing left to do (those are just there for inflation.. they need new buys to get RL money).

I'm losting the vision that warframe has... if there even is one.
 

Problems that i see:

-MR29 to 30 might need 2 years...beacuse there are not enoth

-New things are ALWAYS behind massive grind walls. Remember the "good old days" when you had to kill a boss that had a 33,33333% dropchance for any part? With Protea we're not at the 11,111% chance that also needs you to do some other things to even "enter the lottery" that is just a little bit better than Lichweapons pre "you have to run about 40 times to get the last kuva weapon on a lich.. now enjoy killing him..."

- Storys takes WAAAAYYYYYY to long to even be relevant anymore.

The two part story of DE and Warframe on Youtube has two moments where Spacemom and Steve are saying why others said that they will fail and they managed to avoid it for a long time... but it seems that they've forgoten about this very basic problem: https://youtu.be/UOE6528pwFc?t=1491

 

What i really dont understand is how DE is working in itself, because it shouldnt be a problem to start the same missions (like they always do it) with a different starter level of the enemys... and then just add some stuff to the drop pool. Again we're talking about this for months... hard more still isnt there and they dont even know what drops there should be. I mean you would kill us with dropchances and i would pref tokens and a shop somewhere to a "alternative universe" with the same stuff... but in harder... " and just make Wraith and Vandal weapons there. Just a little reskin and some changed numbers... THIS shouldnt take longer than a month and would take us weeks to complete.

What did we get? Well... i got the new weapons the first day...I will buy the frame, because the dropchance is to low for me. Seems DEs wish for plat inflation is working... but i wonder how many peoplers they will lose if they dont remember THEIR VERY FIRST PROBLEM, because if there isnt anything to do... people will quit.

 

Once my nightwave is at 30... i'm also gone. Not because i really dont want to play... but the way DE is releasing unimpressive (mostly buggy) grindfests has done his work on me.
If you see "the vision" then please tell me about, because i dont think that it's worth to play a game anymore that releases 3 frames per year (that you can just get if you take a long break) and then some reworks that force you to replay stuff that you finished long time ago. Ok for new players that still got things to do... but for me i wish they would FINALLY release the Tao system and those purp aliens that you can grind standing for (in the hope that there might be something to do that means content for more than 2 days)

DE has no vision. 

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Posted (edited)

It has a vision, its Just non traditional? Sadly DE needs a loremaster or we need to storm the offices go down in the cellar, underneath the plywood and old servers and set that hostage free....we feel u brother/ bro-ette i know u want to tell the story but your ascaris bracelet is too tight.  

Edited by (XB1)EPOSSTYLE

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