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CrimsonSpawn

We need more fear in Warframe....

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Hmm. Warframe destruction is off the table because real world money.

But what if it wasn't permanant?

So like, you use up all your revives, and if the mission isn't completed (so your buddies can't haul your corpse out) you gotta do a mission to get the pieces back, and then reassemble it in your foundry--maybe only a day instead of three?

But that's just a punishment gameplay loop, don't think it'd cause actual fear.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Hmm. Warframe destruction is off the table because real world money.

But what if it wasn't permanant?

So like, you use up all your revives, and if the mission isn't completed (so your buddies can't haul your corpse out) you gotta do a mission to get the pieces back, and then reassemble it in your foundry--maybe only a day instead of three?

But that's just a punishment gameplay loop, don't think it'd cause actual fear.

Yeah that won’t work. It would complicate all the Formas people put into the frames and trying to code it to where you can just rebuild your frame in the foundry from the pieces would cause a lot of bugs/glitches with both new and already owned frames. It would be extremely complicated. Too complicated. Like I don’t think there is a single game where you can do that. Cause they don’t follow the same rules as warframe. The whole use a specific item to add a symbol above a perk slot to reduce the capacity usage for more perks. Like there is not a single game that does that AND has a function to rebuild an already owned item with all the added perks. 
 

It would cause a complete do over. DE would have to implement a way to regain all the Formas and catalysts from frames that were sold. THEN, they would have to make it where polarizing a frame doesn’t require releveling the frame either. So that way if the frame got completely destroyed and rebuilt like you’re suggesting, then players can simply add the polarity slots and catalyst and be done. That’s like asking DE to add some reverse time button. Go back to previous save progress button. They can’t. The game doesn’t have some recorded history like that. No game does. Warframe is unique in how you build up your characters. DE cannot implement some code that can recall the Formas and catalysts in each frame destroyed just to have them reinstalled the moment they’re rebuilt in the foundry. 
 

An alternative, more realistic, suggestion is to have a unique mission where you gather the parts in a new type of mission and rebuild the frame from that mission while in your arsenal list the frame is still there but locked. To rebuild in a foundry would require DE implementing like a sort of key and lock code. Where you don’t actually lose lose your frame, but it is locked. And to unlock it you build a sort of warframe key which is built in the foundry by the 3 parts you find in a mission that happen to look like standard/default warframe parts. They would just be called “warframe neuroptics”, “warframe chassis”, and “warframe systems”. No specific name. Otherwise DE would have to implement over 40+ versions which would be way too much data and over complicate the idea. Once you have all 3 parts you start “rebuilding the frame” in a sense as it would be more like building a warframe unlock key for your arsenal. Which can be used to unlock the frame that was “broken”. And can only be done IF a frame gets destroyed. So players can not stack on these “warframe unlock keys”. Can only be done once per broken frame. And you cannot get multiple parts either. It would be like an indefinite side quest. Don’t get all 3 in one go, then you fail and have to start over with no parts.

Kind of like how the warframe specters are just called warframe specters and the symbol is that of Excalibur with stars above his head. Making an ember specter doesn’t change the symbol for warframe specters. So it being a rhino prime needing to be rebuilt won’t cause the parts or name of the parts to be changed To look like rhino prime. And the lotus would say something “you successfully rebuilt your warframe in one piece. Tenno, tru to be more careful next time”. If you try to click on the locked frame it would show something like Ordis saying “the data says the frame is no longer there. It must be broken. You’ll need to retrieve the parts and rebuild”. The “warframe unlock key” would be like a reverse memory chip. Like the locked frame in your arsenal would be a sort of memory data and the “warframe unlock key” unlocks that data and restores the frame to its polarized build. Instead of completely rebuilding the frame and then restoring all its Formas. 
 

That would be the only way for DE to even attempt your suggestion. That is how it would need to go for it to work. But many players will not like the idea of having to rebuild the frame. Being that the frame is already owned, maybe rebuilding only takes 12-24 hours instead of 3 days. But that will still make players mad. Especially those who only have one frame. Or what if they broke all their frames and can’t play at all? 
 

Too many players will stop playing. Or at the very least okay way, way less. It wouldn’t work. Course the new “broken frame” could have a unique secret passive that makes him technically unbreakable. But that wouldn’t matter if people don’t have him from the start.
 

In the end it will only backfire on DE.   

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5 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Ehhh, stalker was a disappointment for me. Dudes were like “run away! He’ll kill you”. But I just slaughtered him and was like, “🤷🏻‍♂️What’s the big deal?”

Which I have wondered about some new stalker that is part infested. Like a quest where he find the stalker with the other half of the broken war. We end up defeating him brutally like chopping off a limb or 2. And left him for dead. But the infested merged with him since they are “of his flesh” also. And not only enhanced him but they rebuilt the other half of the broken war, turning it into a sort of Mutalist version of it. Then the infested stalker pops up basically saying “I’m back!” Where the Tenno is like “no, he should be dead”. Stalker’s voice could sound a little more clear with a more infested vibe coming from it. And he comes with new abilities and old with a little touch of infested. Like stabbing the ground with his sword to cause 8 infested fungi trails like Nidus to spread out which would sprout infested tentacle at the ends that will try to swipe you like hydroid. Could list like a dozen more but I’m sure you get idea. 
 

But that version of stalker would require completing certain quests obviously AND I think should require being of a certain MR. cause players keep avoiding using and leveling up every type of weapon or frame thus not gaining much rank which leads to them demanding DE nerf things that are mastery rank based or remove MR requirements period because they don’t want to have to level up. But players who don’t actually play the game and gain most of the experience shouldn’t be able to just hop into a more complicated mission. 
 

Plus it could be a way to upgrade the war some more. Maybe all the Formas and catalyst used could also be transferred if that War is used as a material. So people won’t be forced to re do everything on it. 
 

Either way, stalker is garbage. Even when I was using an unmodded Excalibur with unmodded skana, Lato, and braton. DE could’ve done more but if you used to have issues then I guess I see why they didn’t. 

nah nah nah, i dont mean the stalker we had before he was upgraded into the shadow stalker, i mean way back in the day before second dream even existed where he would arrive and just instakill you. 
Or heck even further back where he came to the fight with a braton vandal... A powerful enemy with a hitscan weapon before DE implemented the hidden "evasion" statistic? Yeah nah, he killed you pretty easy back then.

Edited by DeckChairVonBananaCamel
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6 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Yeah that won’t work. It would complicate all the Formas people put into the frames and trying to code it to where you can just rebuild your frame in the foundry from the pieces would cause a lot of bugs/glitches with both new and already owned frames. It would be extremely complicated. Too complicated. Like I don’t think there is a single game where you can do that. Cause they don’t follow the same rules as warframe. The whole use a specific item to add a symbol above a perk slot to reduce the capacity usage for more perks. Like there is not a single game that does that AND has a function to rebuild an already owned item with all the added perks

Yeah, see now you're complicating it. There's no reason why it can't be a reskin of your 'alternitive' idea in your second paragraph.

I also addressed that it would backfire by stating it would be a gameplay loop of.punishment that would add.nothing to the game.

Plus, yanno, the Smolcaliburs, Miniags, or Smolts with no secondary frames.

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On 2020-06-14 at 4:17 PM, CrimsonSpawn said:

Perhaps, one of the first captura I ever took... anyways, was going through some old pics and found this. So I just started wondering, when was the last time warframe content was actually... scary?

About two days ago, I was in a Survival mission and Stalker showed up and locked all the doors. It took me a long time to kill him and I ended up running out of  life support so I had to race to extraction before I died. I thought that was sort of scary.

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5 hours ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

nah nah nah, i dont mean the stalker we had before he was upgraded into the shadow stalker, i mean way back in the day before second dream even existed where he would arrive and just instakill you. 
Or heck even further back where he came to the fight with a braton vandal... A powerful enemy with a hitscan weapon before DE implemented the hidden "evasion" statistic? Yeah nah, he killed you pretty easy back then.

Tried making a concept about DE bringing back Misery as an AFK Hunter. If a player is AFK for a certain period, Misery will appear wielding a scythe and can eliminate at least 33% of your health each swing. So no amount of health or armor would protect you. Not even Inaros. And he can create shadow clones of the other frames in the squad. But he only shows up in public games. Not solo or invite or friend only. And it would be a permanent death till the mission is completed or failed. No exception. 
 

But dudes literally tried to use the bathroom excuse. If the bathroom would keep you AFK for such a long time then you deserve to be permanently killed for not being smart enough and selfless enough to leave the game or not start it in the first place.   

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6 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Tried making a concept about DE bringing back Misery as an AFK Hunter. If a player is AFK for a certain period, Misery will appear wielding a scythe and can eliminate at least 33% of your health each swing. So no amount of health or armor would protect you. Not even Inaros. And he can create shadow clones of the other frames in the squad. But he only shows up in public games. Not solo or invite or friend only. And it would be a permanent death till the mission is completed or failed. No exception. 

Dealing "% of max health" to players as damage has issues of its own. What about Limbo? Would your AFK hunter hit through the Rift Plane? What about Rhino's iron skin? 33% of that per swing, as well? What about Valkyr? She's literally invulnerable. Or would you also apply ability nullification? What about Archwings? Suppose someone flies to the height cap in the Plains of Eidolon? Or what about the opposite? What about a Trinity who builds for deliberately low health and is constantly healing? 33% of "not a lot of health" would be "not a lot of damage," but she heals for a flat amount. So does Inaros, for that matter. In fact, Inaros' Scarab Swarm can heal for shocking amounts if he can hit a number of players.

Now granted, you're designing this to punish AFK players so I doubt much of that will come into play, but you just know that players will take this as a challenge and make "kill the AFK Hunder" builds. At that point, you kind of undermine the menace.

 

17 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Hmm. Warframe destruction is off the table because real world money. But what if it wasn't permanant? So like, you use up all your revives, and if the mission isn't completed (so your buddies can't haul your corpse out) you gotta do a mission to get the pieces back, and then reassemble it in your foundry--maybe only a day instead of three? But that's just a punishment gameplay loop, don't think it'd cause actual fear.

It kind of IS just a punishment loop with no real gameplay benefit. This has been my central criticism for the entire concept. Warframe's core gameplay loop is based around a power fantasy. We're stronger, faster, better than our enemies but they have infinite numbers. You're not going to scare the player unless you threaten to steal their stuff, and considering stuff in Warframe almost always also costs money, that's off the table. You can take stuff away and task players with retrieving it, but that leads to cascade failure. The stuff a player loses, the more that player is likely to fail and lose more stuff. If you make the loss temporary on a timer, then that player would just walk away from the game until the timer resets. It's what people did in Overwatch when their favourite hero was "banned" from competitive that week.

The only realistic way you can threaten players is by asking them to wager their earnings. Even Dark Souls recognised this. Rather than losing half your max health on death like in Demon's Souls, in Dark Souls you only lose souls you've gathered since the last time you saved, as well as resetting enemies. You only lose rewards you haven't yet "saved," not rewards you owned beforehand. I could argue that even that is tedious, wasting an hour only to walk away with nothing, but eh - there's an audience for that sort of thing. Like I said - most people are loss averse. A system which reverses their progress is not going to fly, but a system which keeps them from progressing is a lot more palatable.

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Dealing "% of max health" to players as damage has issues of its own. What about Limbo? Would your AFK hunter hit through the Rift Plane? What about Rhino's iron skin? 33% of that per swing, as well? What about Valkyr? She's literally invulnerable. Or would you also apply ability nullification? What about Archwings? Suppose someone flies to the height cap in the Plains of Eidolon? Or what about the opposite? What about a Trinity who builds for deliberately low health and is constantly healing? 33% of "not a lot of health" would be "not a lot of damage," but she heals for a flat amount. So does Inaros, for that matter. In fact, Inaros' Scarab Swarm can heal for shocking amounts if he can hit a number of players. 

Well he is an alcolyte. Figured that the whole bypass ability would be obvious. Misery can deal direct damage to health, no matter what. There are bosses that can still hurt limbo. And stalker can completely nullify abilities. Figured misery simply deals direct damage regardless of protection. And he doesn’t just stand around and slowly walk. He could use the Nekros fear ability to throw your abilities off. As in the button layout is temporarily switched. Can teleport himself to you instead of the reverse and followed by the fear to throw you off in case you’re thinking of just running away. And no ability can prevent him from inflicting direct damage to your health. Healing would be the only way and that requires actually doing something. Most AFKers do nothing. So Misery popping up and swinging his Scythe with little to no warning would definitely keep them on their toes. He would say something like “Oh look, a sitting duck” just before immediately spawning and swinging. He could still use something like the Soul Punch that seeks out the Archwing or K-Drive and destroys it immediately while dealing some damage, then he teleports to you. It ain’t hard to imagine abilities that can be used to prevent AFKers from being able to hide or runaway. Only way to escape is if you can damage him while avoiding being hit. He would be pretty tanky as well. So you’d have to hope you’re squad would forgive your AFKing and help you kill him since he won’t be targeting the others unless they go AFK after you have been killed. But once killed, he won’t spawn the rest of the mission. And he won’t drop any rewards. So literally there would be no reason to purposefully spawn him except to get scans or just have some fun being chased. 
 

So to be a healer frame would require intention/planning. Not something most these AFKers think about, plus they won’t be able to go AFK easily afterwards either. Inaros and limbo are the typical ones used due to their ability to avoid or withstand damage. Which won’t work with Misery. And a trinity won’t be able to stand there and do nothing forever/indefinitely like limbo or Inaros. You can list ideas on how to defeat him or survive him, but you won’t be able to remain AFK during or afterwards. You won’t be able to do both.
 

The purpose is to at least reduce the afk in public games. I don’t expect any idea to completely prevent it. But at least reducing it will make it less annoying. Especially in open world maps. Or keep the players on their toes as they try to avoid Misery vs them doing absolutely nothing. If anything I would enjoy watching Misery chase after an AFKer instead of witnessing them just standing around and doing nothing. 
 

But doing nothing at all about it is just lazy. Survival, defense, MD, all that forces you to play the game, so why not create an enemy that will force AFKers to play too? If you start a survival you’d have to keep the life support up. Misery would force you to actually move, not just stand in one place in every mission. 

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

The purpose is to at least reduce the afk in public games. I don’t expect any idea to completely prevent it. But at least reducing it will make it less annoying. Especially in open world maps. Or keep the players on their toes as they try to avoid Misery vs them doing absolutely nothing. If anything I would enjoy watching Misery chase after an AFKer instead of witnessing them just standing around and doing nothing. 

I mean, if that's the design goal you can just kill them 🙂 I fondly remember old Arcase doing just that. First the game says "GO! GO! GO!" then waits a while. After that, it starts a 60-second timer. If you still don't "GO!" something typically just insta-kills you. Bombs drop from above or you just die. Under those circumstances, there really isn't much point to complex mechanics, I don't think. Just have a Hunter show up behind the player, wind up a loud attack for 5 seconds and insta-kill them. Those mechanics typically try to kill people who aren't at the controls.

If you have an AFKer who's AT the controls just not doing anything, you're usually not going to catch them with automated systems, so creating an actual boss that can be fought and escaped seems superfluous. It's cool, granted, but it adds a lot of moving parts that don't really help your central goal. Warframe's AFK detection system seems... Somewhat imperfect to begin with, since people have been tagged for being AFK just for not moving in Defence missions (and whose fault is it that the mission type is THIS static?) and such. If you can detect an AFK player, then sure - spawn in a Hunter to just insta-kill them and leave. No sense in giving them even the option of responding.

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I still find the truth of Fortuna's citizens genuinely horrifying, and enjoy when WF lore is terrifying enough that your godlike powers don't even matter.

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There's no such thing like fear, and there will never be unless DE completely removes cosmetics and seasonal stuff.

Because shiny golden whatever's are everything but scary.

I'm fine with the game currently, I'd rather have those weird moments we currently have (like the last cinematic from TNW) rather than jumpscares and the like..

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2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The only realistic way you can threaten players is by asking them to wager their earnings. Even Dark Souls recognised this. Rather than losing half your max health on death like in Demon's Souls, in Dark Souls you only lose souls you've gathered since the last time you saved, as well as resetting enemies. You only lose rewards you haven't yet "saved," not rewards you owned beforehand. I could argue that even that is tedious, wasting an hour only to walk away with nothing, but eh - there's an audience for that sort of thing. Like I said - most people are loss averse. A system which reverses their progress is not going to fly, but a system which keeps them from progressing is a lot more palatable.

Mm, this is what the Liches do. However because we have so many resources, so much stocked up, and we can just go to a other planets. It's a nothing unless they grab a riven or something, and then we get angry. However the anger itself can be a good draw, but it isn't always.

6 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

I still find the truth of Fortuna's citizens genuinely horrifying, and enjoy when WF lore is terrifying enough that your godlike powers don't even matter.

This. The horror and fear is in the story, it's in the people who aren't godlike powerful. It's in the things you cannot change and people you cannot save.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Mm, this is what the Liches do. However because we have so many resources, so much stocked up, and we can just go to a other planets. It's a nothing unless they grab a riven or something, and then we get angry. However the anger itself can be a good draw, but it isn't always.

Liches get away with stealing our stuff for two reasons. Firstly, the stuff they steal isn't permanently gone. We can still get it later. Secondly, they steal from our earnings, not our inventory. We can never lose items we had before, only fail to earn additional items. The loss aversion is much less pronounced with the latter. They're an overall good design, and I do agree that them stealing something valuable is a cool mechanic. I remember an acquaintance of mine being ecstatic to get a Smoking Body Ephemera, only for his Lich to steal it at the end of the mission.

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En 14/6/2020 a las 19:17, CrimsonSpawn dijo:

Wk4SuIp.jpg

Perhaps, one of the first captura I ever took... anyways, was going through some old pics and found this. So I just started wondering, when was the last time warframe content was actually... scary? I mean, like genuine fear, not... holy shoot look at all these intrinsics i gotta grind for. I mean the kind of fear, where you'd rather run to extraction (RIP gustrag 3) than have to confront the problem? And i don't mean, well i could do it but too much of a hassle. I mean, i got a MK! braton, vanilla excal (unmoded) and the lights just started flickering. While you could argue that that sensation is never really going to be felt by more experienced and engaged players; they'll read up on the wiki; check the tutorials or always have some invincible builds. You could also say, "Why force your player base to experience something like being a newb again" (cause that's the only time lights flickering meant something). Well, i say,,"its when you feel like a newb at something; overcoming it; mastering it, feels hundred times more satisfying". However, content has been more in lined with punishing players than making them afraid. You should be afraid of getting the wrong order of requim mods, cause then the lich will kill you (bane style) but to be fair, they did somewhat fix that. Also, to those players who liked the animation, i did too, but you have to admit that it was punishing you for something upto to RNG. I mean, if you had to figure out the correct order by solving some riddles or using some brain cells, then i can get it. Also, punishment is a very usefull tool in certain circumstances: is very good in forcing players towards correct means of playing.. but creating a fearful experience is something else entirely and has a completely different effect. And i just think in warframe, where literally any weapon and frame can achieve significant mastery over the content... things like the overall experience we have matters more. And in that aspect, this game is significantly lacking in the fear factor.

When i looked at the image, i mean... imagine you see a warframe in game... lose its mind, go berserk... and ends up killing its tenno (forget about the lore for a sec) just picture it. Now come to the realization that this could happen to you. At any time... any mission.. any moment....

And that is the kind of fear i need, to feel mortal and completely defenseless against the very tools that I have built and grown to love (deep inside i'll always be an Excalibur) are suddenly unreliable and now even killing their operator.

Keep in mind, you never really have to die... just seeing tenno around you actually die is enough to build some serious suspense. Finally, thanks for reading till the end, just had this on my mind of the past day or two and needed to write it down somewhere.. thought here would be good enough. Also... even though it may seem as such, this post had nothing to do with the stalker.. the stalker sigil had just dropped for me at the time and I wanted to see how his stuff would look in captura. Please feel free to reply and leave your own thoughts. Game mechanics and lore can be so messy, plus you can literally explain anything away with the secret space sauce 😉, so yeah... Again, thx 🙂

I think, the only 2 times I felt like "Oh hell no, f*ck this sh*t Im out" (scared as hell) was when I saw on YT what happens when you got captured by Zanuka and when I first saw the cyst on my exca, I reaaally tought It was the end for that warframe, like if you fail on the recovery mission you loose your warframe or if you leave a warframe with the cyst long enough it will become infested, will flee and will hunt you down like a hybrid of stalker and the lich.... it would be nice if this was real.

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Personally, the closest thing to fear I've ever felt in Warframe was from the Conclave. There's nothing scarier than having to fight another Tenno. Maybe when Stalker Mode drops, you'll finally get some of that fear you've been craving.

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