The Deadlock Protocol: Hotfix 28.0.5

[[DE]Momaw]

2 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Alright now also fix the bug where if the saryn dies and self revives (or gets revived in arbitrations) any existing contagion clouds lose their owner and become hostile.

You just made the list buddy.

(of known bugs)  👍

[Urlan]

13 minutes ago, Caius_Fact said:

That's not a terrible way to do it, mind you! I really enjoyed the way Brozime talked about Octavia in his 2020 tier video - "this warframe is overpowered, but no one's using it, so I guess it's not a problem!" And, I mean, he's got a point. "This option is taking over the meta" is a decent working definition for "overpowered." It's even kind of democratic!

The problem, of course, is that something being popular isn't equivalent to "taking over the meta" - Serration is a pretty clear-cut example of that. It's essentially a required inclusion, but that doesn't really hurt the game. That's why you need math, testing, and a robust theory of balance to round out your user analytics.

So yeah, I agree that DE's attention to detail could be a bit better! I don't even think "hands-on experience" is necessarily the issue, here. As I mentioned way back in my initial response, it should have been trivial to see, on paper, why both the original Tombfinger balance and the new balance didn't work. In the first case, all the guns had identical charge-times but different damage outputs, and this afternoon they somehow they ran face-first into the opposite problem - the guns have similar damage outputs and wildly different charge-times.

So yeah, I agree that hands-on experience would be helpful here, but the problem originated well before that. Did nobody think to check the numbers in a spreadsheet? The balance problems should have jumped right off the screen.

The problem is popularity shows popularity, not power; essentially when you use Popularity as the metric for whether a weapon is good, bad, or "OP"; you are loading variables without looking at them. This is seen in the previous popularity chart explanation for why the catchmoon 'needed' to get nerfed. Was it powerful sure, as such custom weapons should be; but popularity alone doesn't say that or show it. In Bramma's case, look at how folk complained about seeing it everywhere; about how it was too popular. Then look about how few players out of our 24 million plus "losers" have actually fought and beaten a lich let alone gotten a a full investment Bramma. Stats, yeah they have the spreadsheets in front of them, but those are spreadsheets a weapon like the Kuva Bramma that is intended to threaten either small groups of elites or singular vehicles and heavies at medium to close range (per its heavy arc and fall-off) lends itself to those stats. Its not an archgun (though those are not really representative of the stats DE's setting work wants to think) but its meant to cover for a shorter period some of the same targets. Its closest cousin is the Lenz and thematically the Zarr and Kulstar. How many folk had lens'd their Catchmoon in that Chart shown to justify its popularity based nerfs, how many that was their only pistol due to limited slots, how many had actually used it for a year; or was the range we were looking at just a week and taking into account folk quickly mastering their gear? We saw a chart, but perhaps not the real information needed to make a balance change decision on power within a tier, and the same could be said of the Bramma.

[lordcominus]

do you not understand that ppl dont want to use mediocore weapons the more you nuff things the more pll stop playing

 

[GreyZetsu]

Please stop kill-nerfing fun and uniquely outrageous weapons like Kuva Bramma.  R.I.P. Zenistar...Weapons are content. Please don't forget you are in the fun business and not the balance business. The update was really fun but it was ruined by the underwhelming primary kit-guns.

[Caius_Fact]

16 minutes ago, Urlan said:

How many folk had lens'd their Catchmoon in that Chart shown to justify its popularity based nerfs, how many that was their only pistol due to limited slots, how many had actually used it for a year; or was the range we were looking at just a week and taking into account folk quickly mastering their gear?

You raise an interesting question. I'm not sure how DE does it, but I think the first thing I'd do is weight the results according to mastery level, on the assumption that higher-level players are probably not running into the kinds of hurdles you're describing. I assume DE is at LEAST doing this - otherwise they would be getting misleading spikes for, say, Broken War or Braton-Mk1.

The next thing I'd do is develop a rough system for gauging how "difficult" different missions and mission-types are. Seeing an MR 23 player bring Akzani to a Lith Fissure probably means that player is just messing around and mixing things up. It they take that same weapon to an Arbitration where Akzani isn't the bonus weapon, that's a more interesting data-point. DE probably isn't doing exactly this, but they could be doing something like it? It's hard to say.

I think I'd also put less weight on weapons with installed Rivens, because that can often mean the Riven is good rather than the weapon itself. DE might be doing this - it's probably less important than abovementioned factors.

Mind you, my reference to spreadsheets was about the spreadsheets in their design docs, not their analytics. I'm talking about a table that compares the stats of the Tombfinger components side-by-side. I don't think there's any danger of contaminated data when you're working with the rules of your own game.

[Esmaterran]

Count this as another negative vote for the new Moa's texture change. I had something slick and nice that looked like it was out of the Tron sequel, and now I have something that looks like a young child painted it with cheap flat acrylic paint.

[Quezaar]

34 minutes ago, Kromatia said:

I hope not. I like the shotgun mods on it. Plus, if it switched to rifle, we couldn't skin it.

Whoa, good point. No change pls. Just, you know, buff blunderbutt already. Like, anytime now.

[Mu_Gera]

4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Tombfinger

Brash

whatever I'm just gonna trash my tombfinger once I get stahlta, already dropped it once I mr foddered it anyways.

[MescalineChef]

I already built 5 primary kitguns...can we at least have a way to switch out parts if yall gunna change the stats so fast? F for my Forma and blue potatoes.... I built 5 secondary kitguns at the start of Fortuna and had no problems...

[Raitlor]

25 minutes ago, [DE]Momaw said:

You just made the list buddy.

(of known bugs)  👍

Would it be possible for this list to be made public somewhere? There's a lot of issues that have been around for a few patches and it would be nice to know they're at least being looked at...

Like Garuda's talons still being unaffected by Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and the Gladiator set bonus since patch 27.5.5

[Old_Fogie]

4 hours ago, -NICHE- said:

Can we get some kind of Forma refund for early adopters of the Primary Kitguns or something? I understand that these changes had to be made for balance/health reasons and will be good for players who build them in the future, but it burns your dedicated players. Sucks to throw 28 Forma + 4 Catalysts + 4 Exilus Adapters down the drain only to have to rebuild them. That's almost 500 plat and several hours that me and many of my clanmates spent.

Or, in the longer term, the ability to swap parts while retaining our current investment. Make the weapons actually modular.

Also, Stropha and Garuda's Talons are still bugged. Stropha does not benefit from Condition Overload or from Combo Counter when heavy attacking. This is a pretty big issue as light attack Gunblades are reliant on CO, while heavy attack Gunblades are reliant on Combo Counter.

Garuda's Talons let you equip Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds, but do not benefit from them nor the Gladiator Set Bonus. This change occurred when the Deadlock Protocol was released and you buffed it, but was unlisted in patch notes and unlike other Exalted weapons you can still equip those mods. 

Ok, whew! Here I thought that I was the only Old Fart who actually does ( shudder) math. Wouldn't mind seeing a response from the Devs on this. Take your time though, I'm currently on hold with the IRS.

[Old_Fogie]

4 hours ago, Caius_Fact said:

 

Whoa, what? Brash Tombfinger's charged radial attack is 329.6 damage and Tremor's is 392.0, and now it has nearly triple the charged firing rate? Sure, its direct damage is only 30.4 to Tremor's 92.8, but in the final sum my Tremor-Tombfinger is now essentially worthless. Could you please tune these numbers a bit more, or else give me my seven Forma back?

Nice. Another math aficionado. Well done Good Sir.

[Gaggle_Baggle]

Please, can frost prime get a stat boost from the 25 shield thing, even for people who don't even use frost, 25 shields is unacceptable from a vanilla to prime.

[RHDecnet]

Been holding this question for quite some time now but.. Cant remember me having to press a button after getting knocked down to get back on my feet.. Why this implementation? Useless mechanic to be honest.. 

[3rdpig]

1 minute ago, RHDecnet said:

Been holding this question for quite some time now but.. Cant remember me having to press a button after getting knocked down to get back on my feet.. Why this implementation? Useless mechanic to be honest.. 

They did it at the same time they took away self damage. Two poor decisions IMO. I remember Reb and Megan showing it off like it was a wonderful thing and thinking, just as I did earlier with the Tombfinger nerf, "You're going to get a mountain of salt over this".

[DoveCannon]

42 minutes ago, [DE]Momaw said:

You just made the list buddy.

(of known bugs)  👍

Is that list anywhere public? Knowing what bugs are known and what is being looked at would go a long way towards quelling frequent bug reports.

I've been trying to get the issue with Garuda's Talons not working with Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and the Gladiator set bonus some attention lately. This has been broken since 27.5.5. Knowing that it's at least on the list of known bugs would help calm this issue.

[kulow]

did you change the new nightwave- ships ability ? when I right-clicked it to see and read some preview about it, it says(still does) something about shockwaves, destroying weak enemys and stuning heavy ones.. but after using it in a mission, all it did, was to put the enemys at sleep. does that killing part not work on enemys lvl 20+ ?

[MacKenzie-Prime]

Not a big fan of the color changes on the new moa... last night my moa was a nice matte black looking kickboxer... today, no changes to the color and he now looks like he was just pulled out of the scrap heap with the massive scratches and roughed up metal...  amd im honestly not seeing any significance in the vibrance of the colors, but rather desauration.

[Breezer88]

Also, thank God that I am done farming this new event for all the parts. Can't think of any other reason to enter the Granum..... Oh, I only have the shoulder pieces... Muh Fashion Frame will now be incomplete..... *sarcasm. Stahlta, Stropha Velox, Protea all DONE. DE has become the one thing so many of us hate about treble A companies. Forcing you into changing elemental damage every X amount of months to change META, nerfing this and buffing things people don't use to force us into other weapons. At some point we will build and keep or delete all of the weapons to make 28/29. Alert: Not all players use the same weapons or play the same way in all games. I am becoming restless with all of my favorite games becoming either a political message or the devs forcing their agenda on the community. Make a game. Make it fun. Keep it simple. Address your community. Make reaching CS easier instead of making someone like me who bought an item from a seller who used bad plat and in turn I had that item taken from me with no compensation. How would I know if someone used bad plat to purchase items and then trade/sell for good plat? Yea, I am reading these posts and I can feel how this community loves this game so much and it hurts us to the core when we spend time and resources into leveling a new weapon like a primary tombfinger only to have them, the devs, NERF THE EFFFFFFFF out of it within a week. Yea, forma building or buying as I do with plat is really cheap...….. *sarcasm. 

 

Lastly, as far as I know there is NO support or help for Players with DISABILITIES. Those of us who suffer from varying level of seizures or have little to no usage of certain appendages, nerve damage, etc and so on. Sorry the size of that community is so small that it doesn't garner it's own section in TRENDING on Twitless or from the savage media. We are here and we love Warframe. 

 

Sorry for the rant.

[Breezer88]

37 minutes ago, MescalineChef said:

I already built 5 primary kitguns...can we at least have a way to switch out parts if yall gunna change the stats so fast? F for my Forma and blue potatoes.... I built 5 secondary kitguns at the start of Fortuna and had no problems...

It is like they don't test these potential combos and when they see the community having FUN, they FKN NERF it into the CORE of the Earth. 

 

Stahlta nerf inbound?????????? lmao

[xXPlebLordXx]

Ah so i wasn't the only one to think it was weird that Tar Mutalist Moas were doing that much dmg

[xxvaderxxar]

NOP Catchmoon STILL SUCKS

[StewAintFud]

When will we get a buff on Protea's turret duration? And maybe slightly on her 1 as well? I find her pretty fun already but she needs a bit more tweaks.

[AlphaBankai]

Might as well not play the game anymore if the most impressive parts of new weapon of the update are gonna get jumped on and nerfed instead of bringing the rest up to its caliber. Why can't we "valance fuse" the parts to a kitgun yet? I'm always afraid of playing the new updates you guys make because I'm always afraid to waste Orokin catalysts and forma because of stuff like this, and most of the times, like today, it is entirely vindicated.

What about the over 150+ primary weapons that are mediocre right now? So much unique stuff there already in the game, lying unused since 2017 or earlier.
What about the Gas status effect? You built all this GREAT stuff for the previous rework patch, most of it was reaaally great, some of it was shot into hell, been a long long while that feedback has been sent.

Its been YEARS and players still fear to lose proggress when a Host switches out of their mission. I have had new players I was trying to help quit the game entirelly or slowly lose interest because of that. But priority number one is watch RED CRIT BUILD videos and pick that to hotfix?

The numbers have been dwindling so much I'm almost jumping out from sheer fear of being the last man standing in a decaying community, and its stuff like parts of this hotfix that really tick people off, at least for us beta testers, uh, i mean, PC Players.

Thanks for the bug fixes you DID do though. Those are nice.

[MrJxt]

Is this intentional?