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-Xtharvind-

Please do something about khora's whipclaw

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Introduction
Nowadays, there are not many weapons and warframe abilities that can bypass the obstacle; for example, exodia contagion (nerfted, remember nukong?), saryn, banshee, and khora's whip claw and etc.

 Problem
If you ask me what among those that can bypass obstacle that I feel annoying the most, I would say it is khora's whipclaw.
Let's analyse what's wrong with khora's whipclaw

  • Range: Whipclaw have base 10m at max rank which is the same as exodia contagion (10m), saryn (10m), and lower range than banshee (20m) so the range is not the issue here
  • Damage: Exodia damage is nerfed wrong time ago so there is nothing to say here (damage still exist but just less than when it was), saryn need stacking spore to deal high damage, banshee damage is just irrelevant but khora whipclaw damage is insaneeeeeeeeeeee you can dealt like million of damage with just this skill alone and compare to other warframe's ability, it is so easy to use, you just press 1 and it have high range, high damage and bypass obstacle.

To summerize, there are two problem with khora's whipclaw, which is the insanely high damage and the ability to bypass any obstacle. 

Solution 
In my opinion, there are 2 choice to fix this skill
1) Nerf the insanely high damage but still maintain the ability to bypass obstacle 
2) Maintain the damage but remove the ability to bypass obstacle  (in my opinion, I think this choice is better, similar to mesa where the enemy need to be in her sight to deal high damage)
 

 

 

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Sure, might aswell just delete her entirely then. Frame abilities should be better than weapons. Khora right now is a very good frame and it should stay like that, If missions are just basic exterminates then something needs to change about that, not nerf any and all good damage abilities.

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Just so we're clear, the destructive potential of whipclaw doesn't come from the whipclaw itself proccing through obstacles but how it synergizes with her strangledome to hit targets that are affected. The whip itself can be very finicky to aim. I regularly miss targets when trying to hit with it.

Also, the extreme damage is from accumulating whipclaw. Without this mod Khora can still hit for 100K+ to many enemy types but it does require a specifically tailored melee weapon which effectively removes your melee as a viable option for regular use.

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you realize that's a Modded maximum of 10 Meters, from the point that the Whip hits?
10 Meters is not a huge number to say the least.

and the reason why the Ability effectively explodes is to make it less of a nightmare to actually hit Enemies with.

 

making a comparison to Peacemaker is quite strange, seeing as one has a 50 Meter Range and the other a 10 Meter Range (and a maximum 10 Meter AoE from the point of impact).

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1 hour ago, -Xtharvind- said:

Range: Whipclaw have base 10m

At rank 3 it has a 5 meter base range, and it can't surpass a 10m range, even if you have 280% range.

 

  • Not only is this a wrong mindset to have, but I assume you watched some KhoraXXoris videos recently and have come here to complain.
  • You also say Saryn has to build up her damage, but then talk about Khora like she doesn't. She has an even longer build up. She has to build up Acummulating Whipclaw, bonus damage from combo, her crit chance from combo, and her status chance from combo.
  • Without the Xoris, or even with it you aren't getting that damage consistently without doing a 20+ min survival. And at that point Atlas, Hildryn, Baruuk, Exodia Contagion, Kuva Bramma, Nova, etc... are all doing the same thing.
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The only nerf I would consider is to have line of sight on one of the enemies you hit, as long as you can see at least one the attack should work the same.

And you mention Mesa, like she is not way more broken than Khora?

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb -Xtharvind-:

Introduction
Nowadays, there are not many weapons and warframe abilities that can bypass the obstacle; for example, exodia contagion (nerfted, remember nukong?), saryn, banshee, and khora's whip claw and etc.

 Problem
If you ask me what among those that can bypass obstacle that I feel annoying the most, I would say it is khora's whipclaw.
Let's analyse what's wrong with khora's whipclaw

  • Range: Whipclaw have base 10m at max rank which is the same as exodia contagion (10m), saryn (10m), and lower range than banshee (20m) so the range is not the issue here
  • Damage: Exodia damage is nerfed wrong time ago so there is nothing to say here (damage still exist but just less than when it was), saryn need stacking spore to deal high damage, banshee damage is just irrelevant but khora whipclaw damage is insaneeeeeeeeeeee you can dealt like million of damage with just this skill alone and compare to other warframe's ability, it is so easy to use, you just press 1 and it have high range, high damage and bypass obstacle.

..

 

 

I dont see there´s a problem about Khora,

She does what she should do.

The damage can of course be extremely high, but only if you know how to mod it. Many players don't know what a stats stick is. etc.

Personally, it is currently quite good that you have so many warframe to choose from, depending on what you want to do.

I think a lot of players get upset that at the end of the mission they only do 0-1% damage. but this is irrelevant

 

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Posted (edited)

I play warframes for warframes. Abilities should hit hard and be effective. If I want to have guns all day, I'd go play call of duty instead. 

 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Sure, might aswell just delete her entirely then. Frame abilities should be better than weapons. Khora right now is a very good frame and it should stay like that, If missions are just basic exterminates then something needs to change about that, not nerf any and all good damage abilities.

You can have a good damage frame that isn't a press-4-to-win (or press-1-to-win in Khora's case) nuke which just spams one button for the entire mission to make all challenge go away. Khora's current implementation is both lazy and encourages the behavior of treating the game like a walking simulator.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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vor 17 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

You can have a good damage frame that isn't a press-4-to-win (or press-1-to-win in Khora's case) nuke which just spams one button for the entire mission to make all challenge go away. Khora's current implementation is both lazy and encourages the behavior of treating the game like a walking simulator.

Khora cant remove any challenge if there never was one to begin with. Trash enemies should die extremely quickly, that's the point of it. And if you go to higher level khora needs to watch out for enemies because she is very squishy. 

I never understood this anti "press x to win" mentallity. Do you want the ability to just kill you instead? Do you want it to be useless trash like frost's 1? If it's better than weapons it will get used a lot, if it's worse then it will be absolutely useless. 

Disruption does an amazing job at balancing the large aoe dps frames: sure you can try to murder every fodder enemy, but does it really matter for progressing the mission? not really. The ground mission in scarlet spear did an even better job at requiring almost everything warframes have to offer: single target damage, buffs, AoE clear and protecting things. This is what I mean with missions need to change, not warframes. Exterminate is inherently boring because of how simplistic it is. Khora doesnt change anything about that.

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12 hours ago, -Xtharvind- said:

1) Nerf the insanely high damage but still maintain the ability to bypass obstacle 
2) Maintain the damage but remove the ability to bypass obstacle  (in my opinion, I think this choice is better, similar to mesa where the enemy need to be in her sight to deal high damage)

Khora main here.

I'm perfectly fine with her getting a nerf to her nuke potential as long as Saryn, Mesa and Equinox are nerfed the exact same day as Khora with the exact same change.

Balance them all. Don't single out a frame.

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6 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Khora main here.

I'm perfectly fine with her getting a nerf to her nuke potential as long as Saryn, Mesa and Equinox are nerfed the exact same day as Khora with the exact same change.

Balance them all. Don't single out a frame.

I doubt DE will be able to knock them all down at once, but seeing as I want all nuke frames dealt with, I support this.

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5 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I doubt DE will be able to knock them all down at once, but seeing as I want all nuke frames dealt with, I support this.

Well, if they make it a global revision like healing abilities then I think they can make it happen. It would take longer though. 

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8 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Khora main here.

I'm perfectly fine with her getting a nerf to her nuke potential as long as Saryn, Mesa and Equinox are nerfed the exact same day as Khora with the exact same change.

Balance them all. Don't single out a frame.

Pretty sure that would not be balancing them.

Guns already out damage Warframe's, making Warframes weaker is not really a solution. If anything the tankier Warframe is going to grab a already bigger spotlight than they currently are.

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Just now, Hellmaker2004 said:

Pretty sure that would not be balancing them.

Guns already out damage Warframe's, making Warframes weaker is not really a solution. If anything the tankier Warframe is going to grab a already bigger spotlight than they currently are.

They may outdamage frames but they do not kill everything around you at both sides, above and below at once in a 40-meter bubble like abilities do.

Balancing is done in the context of other things within said category, not other things. If Khora (As a frame) is to be nerfed by decreasing her range or damage or by requiring line of sight and no longer go through walls, then I expect the same to be done to Saryn and Equinox to the same proportional degree.

Either nerf them all or don't nerf any. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, -Xtharvind- said:

saryn need stacking spore to deal high damage,

...

but khora whipclaw damage is insaneeeeeeeeeeee you can dealt like million of damage with just this skill alone

but... but Khora as much as saryn has to stack combo instead of spores, sure its diffrent, but you cant say Khoras damage comes from nothing when it literally has to be "built up" as well.

sure it starts out strong even without combo, but its not like she can one shot level 150+ enemys without combo. she also has to spam much more then saryn.. so I would not consider her to be overly toxic to the game right now. also, to most important bosses (like the new Jackal) it doesn't even work. so it still ahs its limitations, its only good for mobbing, which is nice, but not to overpowered in a game where everyone can do that, your Bramma can do that, and for lower content Ivara can to it with the augment. all the while Baruuks laugh on a pile of millions of dead enemys you just palmed for 2 mil damage.

 

I dont see an argument here.

 

when you say "bypass obstacles"? do you mean it should not go through walls? because then yes, this could be removed but is not necessary.

 

 

EDIT: also can I say that it is so funny to me that all the rage starts NOW, just because she got LITERALLY ONE more mod slot to work with.. because all that Xoris added was that you no longer need a combo mod.. and good Khora players were doing this exact same thing for MONTHS now! and even stronger then using Xoris, it literraly adds convinience to it, nothing more. xD

my atlas and ash are happy for the exact same reasons btw. and I just started testing everyone.

 

Edited by SmokinDice
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21 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Sure, might aswell just delete her entirely then.

It is ridiculous to think that making Whipclaw LoS would ruin Khora. It is still an immense amount of damage in a respectable range. Most times you use the ability the LoS would probably not even be a factor. 

The "it is less good, therefore useless" responses are useless when trying to convince someone else of your opinion because clearly they think different. 

And we both know that Khora's murder potential is a lot better than for just exterminate, in some ways it is the best "I want this group of enemies unalive" currently in game... something that is valuable in any game mode that requires murder. Don't undersell Khora to try to make a point, she's nutty.

 

Don't take this to mean I am in favor of the nerf, honestly I'm torn. I just really, really don't like it when people immediately say "then it will be useless" in response to any nerf suggestion without backing it up.

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vor 15 Minuten schrieb DrBorris:

It is ridiculous to think that making Whipclaw LoS would ruin Khora. It is still an immense amount of damage in a respectable range. Most times you use the ability the LoS would probably not even be a factor. 

The "it is less good, therefore useless" responses are useless when trying to convince someone else of your opinion because clearly they think different. 

And we both know that Khora's murder potential is a lot better than for just exterminate, in some ways it is the best "I want this group of enemies unalive" currently in game... something that is valuable in any game mode that requires murder. Don't undersell Khora to try to make a point, she's nutty.

 

Don't take this to mean I am in favor of the nerf, honestly I'm torn. I just really, really don't like it when people immediately say "then it will be useless" in response to any nerf suggestion without backing it up.

With how narrow some tilesets are i do think this would matter a lot. Khora would then fall and rise purely depending on what tileset a specific mission is on. From my experience with gauss and the breaking corpus windows (which are thankfully gone now) this is absolutely awful.

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10 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

You can have a good damage frame that isn't a press-4-to-win (or press-1-to-win in Khora's case) nuke which just spams one button for the entire mission to make all challenge go away. Khora's current implementation is both lazy and encourages the behavior of treating the game like a walking simulator.

This whole game is and all you can eat cheese and spam buffet. We have invis frames like Loki, Ivara, Ash and Octavia that trivialize all content in the game since enemies never aggro them. We have tanks like Revenant that literally take zero damage. Nukes like Saryn, Khora, Equinox and Mirage that can clear maps with a few keystrokes. Melee is completely broken and no primary/secondary can possibly compete for dps or kills. It doesn't matter. Any content that DE throws at us we have the tools to cheese and spam our way to victory. 

Any frame/weapon combo you choose to play is just your preferred spam and cheese flavor combination. Who cares if it's press 4 to win, press 1 to win, e spam or your favorite bullet hose. It's still spam and cheese. 

 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

This whole game is and all you can eat cheese and spam buffet. We have invis frames like Loki, Ivara, Ash and Octavia that trivialize all content in the game since enemies never aggro them. We have tanks like Revenant that literally take zero damage. Nukes like Saryn, Khora, Equinox and Mirage that can clear maps with a few keystrokes. Melee is completely broken and no primary/secondary can possibly compete for dps or kills. It doesn't matter. Any content that DE throws at us we have the tools to cheese and spam our way to victory. 

Any frame/weapon combo you choose to play is just your preferred spam and cheese flavor combination. Who cares if it's press 4 to win, press 1 to win, e spam or your favorite bullet hose. It's still spam and cheese. 

 

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

All of this is bad and should be nerfed. The difference between most of the things you listed and nuke frames plus spin2win is that they trivialize the game for everyone on the team and not just the player using them. Loki players make the game easier for themselves, same goes with hyper tank frames like Revenant. Meanwhile if you don't play these frames and end up teaming up with a Saryn or Khora or Mesa or Equinox, they trivialize the game for you regardless if you wanted them to or not. Other people tanking or going invisible doesn't take away your experience of getting swarmed and/or shot at (probably more so if teammates use invisibility, because who else are they going to aggro on).

Nuke frames and spin2win melee cheese should be a higher priority.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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14 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

All of this is bad and should be nerfed. The difference between most of the things you listed and nuke frames plus spin2win is that they trivialize the game for everyone on the team and not just the player using them. Loki players make the game easier for themselves, same goes with hyper tank frames like Revenant. Meanwhile if you don't play these frames and end up teaming up with a Saryn or Khora or Mesa or Equinox, they trivialize the game for you regardless if you wanted them to or not. Other people tanking or going invisible doesn't take away your experience of getting swarmed and/or shot at (probably more so if teammates use invisibility, because who else are they going to aggro on).

Nuke frames and spin2win melee cheese should be a higher priority.


That is not entirely true.

Tank Frames don't take anything away from you perhaps. But for people who like to provide support they do.
What is the point in giving (Inserting a arbitrary number here) 200 HP/s and a 50% Damage reduction, to someone that have 200000 EHP, meanwhile you offer this to them on a frame with like 2000-3000 EHP.

Same goes for Invisibility frames, although you can not set a value on stealth it still removes game play from other players who enjoys to support allies.

You also talk about Spin 2 win trivializing the game, but so does a lot of weapons.
My current gun yellow crit for ~587833, with a 24% Chance to red crit for even more. This in a 9,8m radius. And sure, at the edge of that range it only deals 10% damage. But that is still ~58783 damage minimum in a 9,8m radius.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Can’t you wait for console to get it first? I want to actually see what all the hype is about.

There isn't anything you can do with Khora now that you can't already do in the previous updates. Before Xoris, there was Naramon. And anyone who thinks Energy is a problem with Naramon lacks build imagination. You can make Naramon Khora solo 8+ rounds of ESO with the exact same results as Xoris by using Equilibrium, Synth Mods (Fiber guarantees health orb pickup and Deconstruct generates health orbs). There's also Arcane Energize, Exodia Brave, Rakta Dark Dagger with the augment for Blight, and Broken Scepter.. and there are even more options than this (like Dethcube!).

As per the rest of the topic...  let's be honest... a nuke has 360 degree non-LoS long range killing capability. While Whipclaw can sometimes bypass LoS and kill enemies through walls (it shouldn't be able to do this IMO), it does not cover the area that real nuke abilities can cover. Whipclaw works well in ESO because enemy densities in any given location are usually very high and wildly unrealistic. There isn't a single other game mode where there are 50 enemy units huddled together like that! It's not really fair to ask for a nerf to Khora based on an ESO run. Whipclaw does not perform like that anywhere else!

Additionally, for ESO, there are tiles (like large tiles and maze-like tiles like Kuva Fortress with spread out spawn points) where Khora doesn't work well anymore. You can find videos where Khora is doing great on small tiles with easy layouts and few spawn points and then her progress tanks on some of these other tiles. When I have trouble with an ESO tile with Khora, I join a game with a Saryn and Saryn makes every tile easy (because Saryn's a real nuke frame and Khora isn't!). That said, this week's ESO tile sequence is pretty easy! They're not always so trivial!

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