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Please do something about khora's whipclaw


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1 hour ago, CloudATL said:

Her 1's just got too much damage, and no need to aim at all. Combo with 4 should just not exist. The way the augment works (making you just get rid off ability strength mod) adds up to the imbalance of the spell. To those saying you need to build up the combo, don't pretend you ever struggled in lvl 100 missions with 0 combo... And then if you go beyond lvl 100 you'll be already long enough in the mission to manage x12. And there's xoris now...

No, you really do have to aim. It does miss a lot and it even doesn't hit sometimes even when you do aim. It doesn't always bypass terrain or obstacles and it really works best when using synergy with 4 (which does let you bypass terrain and obstacles that 1 by itself can't always bypass!). The Stangledome itself provides far less AOE than actual nuke frames but once it accumulates lots of enemies, you can "nuke" them for sure.

When you take Khora into a low spawn mission (like Defense) or a mission with spread out spawns (like Excavation or Survival), she doesn't work as well as what you see in ESO videos. But you know when 50 guys spawn in one location and you can jump back and forth between spawn points whipping 50 guys at a time... oh yeah, Khora looks really powerful and more so than she really is. Whipclaw does hit very very hard, but it hits in a focused area... people ignore that in the ESO videos because it hits 50 guys that all spawn together in one location where that works out!

Xoris brings nothing to the table. I have shown that beautifully... no combo or energy problems with Naramon (full energy almost all the time). There's also an ESO tile in my video with distributed randomized spawns where Khora does not work well (Zone 5). If you're on a large tile and there aren't 50 guys spawning all together in one place, then not only does Khora have to go around and look for small clumps of enemies, her Strangledome doesn't even help her much! An actual nuke frame is never affected by a tile like that.

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Il y a 17 heures, nslay a dit :

No, you really do have to aim. It does miss a lot and it even doesn't hit sometimes even when you do aim. It doesn't always bypass terrain or obstacles and it really works best when using synergy with 4 (which does let you bypass terrain and obstacles that 1 by itself can't always bypass!). The Stangledome itself provides far less AOE than actual nuke frames but once it accumulates lots of enemies, you can "nuke" them for sure.

Can you even call it aiming when really it's wide af... if that's rewarded aiming then harrow should go godmode when hiting a head.

Il y a 17 heures, nslay a dit :

The Stangledome itself provides far less AOE than actual nuke frames but once it accumulates lots of enemies, you can "nuke" them for sure.

Neither volt nor saryn can literaly blow up lvl 5k guys in strangledome's radius actually. I guess another comparable nuke AOE would be mag's 2, and we all know how balanced that spell is as well. But at least mag doesn't revive on her own lel (venari bodyguard). I sometimes feel like people give thoughts without actually pushing their frames to the limit ... No offense man but whipclaw literaly one shots lvl 500 grineers and i don't even have a god stat stick... And what's the energy cost again ? It's ridiculous. Actually i wonder if whipclaw isn't one of the most damaging, easiest and cheapest nuke spell in the game, once combined with strangledome.

There's a reason people recruit for infinite kuva survivals with khora as core component... Can defend a pod, CC a whole tileset, heal an ally, and revive in case some enemy didn't get cc'd in time, cast her 1 on the run, get extra loot, and so on. What else does a frame need ?

Il y a 17 heures, nslay a dit :

When you take Khora into a low spawn mission (like Defense) or a mission with spread out spawns (like Excavation or Survival), she doesn't work as well as what you see in ESO videos. But you know when 50 guys spawn in one location and you can jump back and forth between spawn points whipping 50 guys at a time... oh yeah, Khora looks really powerful and more so than she really is. Whipclaw does hit very very hard, but it hits in a focused area... people ignore that in the ESO videos because it hits 50 guys that all spawn together in one location where that works out!

Glad to say i don't make points out of vids cuz i despise most youtubers for spreading fake things. So yea i'm not talking about simulacrum or ESO right here. With 280 range, khora does very well in defense missions, especially cuz u can stack strangledomes lol. I actually never go past 235 range on khora cuz it's just too large of an aoe already, and cuz of whipclaw cap.

Il y a 17 heures, nslay a dit :

An actual nuke frame is never affected by a tile like that.

err wat. Saryn's the only nuke frame then ? Really really let's re-read that, what frame can actually nuke in 5th wave on its own (taking equi off the table)? Volt/Mirage ? lel comon if the tileset is grineer neither of the latter 2 will take on Khora. She just rocks in any type of mission (besides assassination?), her 2 makes her amazing in many niche scenarios, 4 loot make her core for any farm comp, 3 makes her ez in arbitration, 4+1 = free kuva survival... there's just so much this frame does amazing.

Il y a 17 heures, nslay a dit :

no combo or energy problems with Naramon (full energy almost all the time)

yea exactly so you can still go for a better stat stick than xoris and still work your way with naramon & gize. Xoris is just the beginner ez choice. Soooo yea w/e man idk what point you're trying to make but khora is busted and we all know it... If you find yourself struggling at some point it's just a build matter.

Edited by CloudATL
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1 minute ago, CloudATL said:

Can you even call it aiming when really it's wide af... if that's rewarded aiming then harrow should go godmode when hiting a head.

Yes! And lots of missed Whipclaws are in my video! There are also missed Whipclaws in Brozime's video which is the originator of this Khora sentiment. Brozime's also shows "dud" Whipclaws where only just a few enemies die.

Once you have Strangledome up, it's hard to miss. But Whipclaw by itself can easily miss, for example, a lone enemy.

1 minute ago, CloudATL said:

Neither volt nor saryn can literaly blow up lvl 5k guys in strangledome's radius actually. I guess another comparable nuke AOE would be mag's 2, and we all know how balanced that spell is as well. But at least mag doesn't revive on her own lel (venari bodyguard). I sometimes feel like people give thoughts without actually pushing their frames to the limit ... No offense man but whipclaw literaly one shots lvl 500 grineers and i don't even have a god stat stick... And what's the energy cost again ? It's ridiculous. Actually i wonder if whipclaw isn't one of the most damaging, easiest and cheapest nuke spell in the game, once combined with strangledome.

There's a reason people recruit for infinite kuva survivals with khora as core component... Can defend a pod, CC a whole tileset, heal an ally, and revive in case some enemy didn't get cc'd in time. What else ?

Yeah, Mag the "nuke." Neither of these frames are in the same class as real nuke frames. They both need setup... there's no press 4 and everyone dies on the map. That's what we're discussing right? The "problem" of Whipclaw nuking the whole map... which is a myth.

Since we're touching on some kind of advantage of reviving with Venari and killing level 5k enemies (which is probably not true without exploiting the bug mentioned in this thread)... Revenant is better than Khora at this. Not only can he take level 5k enemy damage and laugh it off, he can one shot level 5k enemies (and his ability is not the result of a bug!). Nobody is calling Revenant "OP" because he can one-shot level 5k enemies. It's because he can only one-shot 7 of them at a time! Just like in non-ESO missions Khora can just whip a sparse number of enemies with her Whipclaw alone. There is no other mission type with ESO spawning mechanics where Whipclaw can work so efficiently by itself.

4 minutes ago, CloudATL said:

Glad to say i don't make points out of vids cuz i despise most youtubers for spreading fake things. So yea i'm not talking about simulacrum or ESO right here. With 280 range, khora does very well in defense missions, especially cuz u can stack strangledomes lol. I actually never go past 235 range on khora cuz it's just too large of an aoe already, and cuz of whipclaw cap.

You still can't "nuke" an entire map with a single Whipclaw. That range will help you kill those sparse enemies in a focused area further away! Big whoop.

7 minutes ago, CloudATL said:

err wat. Saryn's the only nuke frame then ? Really really let's re-read that, what frame can actually nuke in 5th wave on its own (taking equi off the table)? Volt/Mirage ? lel comon if the tileset is grineer neither of the latter 2 will take on Khora. She just rocks in any type of mission (besides assassination?), her 2 makes her amazing in many niche scenarios, 4 loot make her core for any farm comp, 3 makes her ez in arbitration, 4+1 = free kuva survival... there's just so much this frame does amazing.

Saryn is the absolute best frame for ESO and there isn't a single tile in ESO she can't do effectively. Yet there's a real example that Khora is bad at... It's painfully obvious why she's bad at it. It's because Whipclaw isn't this magic map nuking ability people in this thread make it out to be. It's entirely because of limitations in Whipclaw that she's bad at that tile! And no, she's not the greatest frame for just any mission type beside assassination. You're exaggerating.

I do like using Khora for Disruption. You can Ensnare those Demolysts!

10 minutes ago, CloudATL said:

yea exactly so you can still go for a better stat stick than xoris and still work your way with naramon & gize. Xoris is just the beginner ez choice. Soooo yea w/e man idk what point you're trying to make but khora is busted and we all know it... If you find yourself struggling at some point it's just a build matter.

OK. Good, as long as you actually believe Xoris is a "beginner ez choice" then you have no need to use Xoris as a vehicle to exaggerate Khora's Whipclaw.

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Why are you asking for nerfs? Do you actually think Warframe will be any harder if they nerf Khora? Let people have fun with their games... I'd understand asking for nerfs for something OP in a PvP game, but in Warframe????

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10 minutes ago, MegaloStrikeBack said:

Why are you asking for nerfs? Do you actually think Warframe will be any harder if they nerf Khora? Let people have fun with their games... I'd understand asking for nerfs for something OP in a PvP game, but in Warframe????

Just because a game is mostly PvE doesn't give it an excuse to not have balancing. There's plenty of PvE games that nerf and buff things as needed, Warframe is no exception.

Hell it's done nerfs already, many many times in fact.

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23 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Just because a game is mostly PvE doesn't give it an excuse to not have balancing. There's plenty of PvE games that nerf and buff things as needed, Warframe is no exception.

Hell it's done nerfs already, many many times in fact.

But you're trying to "balance" the game in your favour and make it like Destiny or COD even.. some of us just play the game because its fun and we like to smash stuff.. if you all want to nerf everything and balance it then it doesnt stay Warframe, its another game you maybe should be looking for?

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43 minutes ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

But you're trying to "balance" the game in your favour and make it like Destiny or COD even.. some of us just play the game because its fun and we like to smash stuff.. if you all want to nerf everything and balance it then it doesnt stay Warframe, its another game you maybe should be looking for?

How does making sure you can't blow up entire rooms of enemies with one button and turning the game into a walking simulator suddenly turn it into CoD or Destiny?

How does making sure you can't trivialize the game with one button take away your enjoyment of smashing stuff? I'm not saying we take away Saryn's Miasma or Mesa's Peacekeepers, I'm saying ridiculously high AoE and damage shouldn't mix.

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il y a 15 minutes, -AncientWarrior- a dit :

But you're trying to "balance" the game in your favour and make it like Destiny or COD even.. some of us just play the game because its fun and we like to smash stuff.. if you all want to nerf everything and balance it then it doesnt stay Warframe, its another game you maybe should be looking for?

Wowowo we're talking about nerfing stuff that can take on 7 hours long missions, not random content you smash through when playing "chill".

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Il y a 5 heures, nslay a dit :

You still can't "nuke" an entire map with a single Whipclaw. That range will help you kill those sparse enemies in a focused area further away! Big whoop.

whipclaw atk speed + strangledome interaction comon it's maybe 5 buttons to clear it all but not efficient enough whatever tileset it is ? Saryn should be left aside but khora's just as efficient as it gets in warframe  really i can't think of easier ways to clear such amounts of high level guys (and this solely with her spells i'm not talking about banshee here). You can totally solo 8 waves of ESO on khora w/e tileset it is...

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Just now, CloudATL said:

whipclaw atk speed + strangledome interaction comon it's maybe 5 buttons to clear it all but not efficient enough whatever tileset it is ? Saryn should be left aside but khora's just as efficient as it gets in warframe  really i can't think of easier ways to clear such amounts of high level guys (and this solely with her spells i'm not talking about banshee here). You can totally solo 8 waves of ESO on khora w/e tileset it is...

Yes! Agreed! I do solo 8 waves of ESO with Khora... I choose Khora because she's a tonne of fun. But even Khora can struggle on a handful of ESO tiles. This week the ESO tiles are pretty easy. But I've had large tiles with low spawns where I need to join a random pug with a Saryn to reliably get past that zone. It just shows the vast difference in efficiency between these two frames in ESO.

I tell you, I really don't like the nuke frames. I don't want to deprive fun for other players (which is how I define balance in PvE). I chose Khora because she can do ESO, make it fun, and not necessarily be a frame that everyone hates in random pugs. Though I do think her Strangledome is annoying for other players trying to shoot the dangling guys!

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Il y a 1 heure, nslay a dit :

Though I do think her Strangledome is annoying for other players trying to shoot the dangling guys!

i see many ppl asking for it to be changed too yea, it would be nice not to have them dance and swing. Yet holy crap it can be hilarious hahaha. I guess we'll see what will be done, hopefully soon indeed

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On 2020-06-17 at 5:14 PM, -Xtharvind- said:

Introduction
Nowadays, there are not many weapons and warframe abilities that can bypass the obstacle; for example, exodia contagion (nerfted, remember nukong?), saryn, banshee, and khora's whip claw and etc.

 Problem
If you ask me what among those that can bypass obstacle that I feel annoying the most, I would say it is khora's whipclaw.
Let's analyse what's wrong with khora's whipclaw

  • Range: Whipclaw have base 10m at max rank which is the same as exodia contagion (10m), saryn (10m), and lower range than banshee (20m) so the range is not the issue here
  • Damage: Exodia damage is nerfed wrong time ago so there is nothing to say here (damage still exist but just less than when it was), saryn need stacking spore to deal high damage, banshee damage is just irrelevant but khora whipclaw damage is insaneeeeeeeeeeee you can dealt like million of damage with just this skill alone and compare to other warframe's ability, it is so easy to use, you just press 1 and it have high range, high damage and bypass obstacle.

To summerize, there are two problem with khora's whipclaw, which is the insanely high damage and the ability to bypass any obstacle. 

Solution 
In my opinion, there are 2 choice to fix this skill
1) Nerf the insanely high damage but still maintain the ability to bypass obstacle 
2) Maintain the damage but remove the ability to bypass obstacle  (in my opinion, I think this choice is better, similar to mesa where the enemy need to be in her sight to deal high damage)
 

 

 

Oh no Khora too strong omg!!!

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On 2020-06-26 at 4:08 PM, Pizzarugi said:

Just because a game is mostly PvE doesn't give it an excuse to not have balancing. There's plenty of PvE games that nerf and buff things as needed, Warframe is no exception.

Hell it's done nerfs already, many many times in fact.

There are two schools of thought related to balance in games.

Many people see balance as a good thing because it puts everyone on the same playing field.

Others see balance as an issue because it can negatively impact the fun people are able to have.

 

Warframe is essentially a game about being a super powerful robot ninja. There is no competitive element outside of conclave (dead game mode) and a couple of one-off minigames. Asking for a non-competitive game to be balanced is problematic because the unbalanced stuff really doesn't negatively impact the experience others have unless it prevents people from engaging with the content. Nuke frames have been heavily criticized because they stop others form being able to play the game. Khora may fall into this category but is her ability to nuke better than the other primary nuke frames?

I would argue that Khora is balanced if you consider her to be one of the nuke frames. Khora, Equinox, Saryn, Volt etc.

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4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Others see balance as an issue because it can negatively impact the fun people are able to have.

Other peoples' fun doesn't take precedence over that of their teammates. If it did, there would've been no need to rework Limbo to not be a hindrance to their teammates. Some people thought his old kit was fun, freezing bullets so they can put a whole bunch in one spot, unfreeze them and essentially 1shot shotgun something.

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Warframe is essentially a game about being a super powerful robot ninja. There is no competitive element outside of conclave (dead game mode) and a couple of one-off minigames. Asking for a non-competitive game to be balanced is problematic because the unbalanced stuff really doesn't negatively impact the experience others have unless it prevents people from engaging with the content.

Nobody is arguing about a nerf from a competitive perspective. Warframe is a horde shooter, not a power fantasy.

DE has once enforced preventing press-4-to-win playstyles in the past, which is why they gave Excalibur's Radial Javelin a LoS limitation and bumped it down to his 3rd ability way back when. There's no reason to believe this mindset has changed, rather they're too busy adding more things to the game rather than taking time to balance what we already have.

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Nuke frames have been heavily criticized because they stop others form being able to play the game.

It's not so much stop others from being able to play, but rather trivialize the game for them and stop them from having fun, taking the "horde" out of "horde shooter". I don't know you personally, but when I play Warframe, I want to shoot at enemies while completing the objective. Not easy to do if I get teamed up with someone who presses 1 button to kill everything, leaving me nothing to do except walk to extraction.

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Khora may fall into this category but is her ability to nuke better than the other primary nuke frames?

Just because she may be among the worst of the nuke frames doesn't make her a non-issue. She can still press one button to 1shot any group she sees, easier if you mod her to have much higher range. 😛

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I would argue that Khora is balanced if you consider her to be one of the nuke frames. Khora, Equinox, Saryn, Volt etc.

There is no "balanced" when it comes to nuke frames. You either spam one button to wipe out large groups/entire rooms of enemies, or you don't. The only balanced "nuke" frame is Garuda, and that's because her 1shot capability requires a lot of setting up to justify it and still has limited range/number of enemies.

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1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

There is no "balanced" when it comes to nuke frames. You either spam one button to wipe out large groups/entire rooms of enemies, or you don't. The only balanced "nuke" frame is Garuda, and that's because her 1shot capability requires a lot of setting up to justify it and still has limited range/number of enemies.

That's true for Khora too. The setup is Stangledome, combo counter, and Accumulating Whipclaw stacks. When enemies accumulate in Strangledome, then Khora can "nuke" them and "nuke" them reliably through walls and obstacles. You've ignored this repeatedly and you've ignored Brozime using Strangledome... and you've ignored Brozime's Whipclaw not "nuking" numerous times when enemies aren't in a Strangledome. Even worse is that you base this on an ESO run where you can just put up a Strangledome at a spawn point, jump away, and then come back and "nuke" the 50 some odd enemies that spawn and get instantly caught in it. This spawning mechanic does not happen in any other game mode... you cannot do what Brozime does in any other game mode. On top of that, because it is ESO we have a reproducible Accumulating Whipclaw bug that accumulates stacks across zones (and more stacks than otherwise possible) allowing an otherwise stackless comboless Khora to do more damage than actually possible. The way I see it, a bug fix will address your Brozime complaints ... he'll then actually want to use his melee weapon (like me) to build combo for more damage.

So then, how can Garuda be a "balanced" nuke and with setup and Khora not when Khora also needs considerable setup? Do you think Brozime is killing those enemies behind that wall with Whipclaw alone? There's a Strangledome there (with ESO spawning mechanics to help it work way better than otherwise possible). It doesn't actually work the way you've interpreted it to.

You're grouping Khora in with frames that actually can really just essentially press 4 and kill everything on an entire map. Khora cannot do anything like that. People leave games when they see a Mesa or a Saryn because those frames can actually do that with little to no setup. People complain about these frames because they can do that. Nobody really leaves games because Khora can "nuke" enemies caught in her Strangledome with Whipclaw... People more so hate Khora because Strangledome dangles enemies and makes them hard to kill, not because she's a "nuke." You're demonstrably wrong on so many levels... forum Khora threads, game play, setup, bugs, etc...

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1 hour ago, nslay said:

That's true for Khora too. The setup is Stangledome, combo counter, and Accumulating Whipclaw stacks.

No it's not. You've said yourself several times that it's easy for Khora to build combo counter without even needing the Xoris. All you have to do is keep spamming 1 to build it and if you've modded her well enough, she should be able to 1shot most enemies right out the door.

1 hour ago, nslay said:

When enemies accumulate in Strangledome, then Khora can "nuke" them and "nuke" them reliably through walls and obstacles. You've ignored this repeatedly and you've ignored Brozime using Strangledome... and you've ignored Brozime's Whipclaw not "nuking" numerous times when enemies aren't in a Strangledome.

A max range Khora build gives Whipclaw a 10-14m radius which is large enough to 1shot any group. If you build Khora for nuking, and most players I've seen tend to do that, you'll most likely run max range. The reduced damage the setup would incur will balance itself out with sufficient combo count.

1 hour ago, nslay said:

Even worse is that you base this on an ESO run where you can just put up a Strangledome at a spawn point, jump away, and then come back and "nuke" the 50 some odd enemies that spawn and get instantly caught in it. This spawning mechanic does not happen in any other game mode... you cannot do what Brozime does in any other game mode.

I've only brought up ESO once, namely to demonstrate how broken she's gotten with the Xoris. You're the one who wants to keep using that example.

And it's incorrect that enemies don't spawn like that outside of ESO. I've run plenty of endless missions to see enemies rush in from other rooms in packs tight enough for her Whipclaw to 1shot. Just because she has to cast it a few more times than a Saryn or Volt to tag all of the groups doesn't make her not a nuke.

1 hour ago, nslay said:

On top of that, because it is ESO we have a reproducible Accumulating Whipclaw bug that accumulates stacks across zones (and more stacks than otherwise possible) allowing an otherwise stackless comboless Khora to do more damage than actually possible. The way I see it, a bug fix will address your Brozime complaints ... he'll then actually want to use his melee weapon (like me) to build combo for more damage.

This only applies to Accumulating Whipclaw augment.

And again, you've said yourself that it's easy to build combo multi so having the bug fixed is only going to be a temporary inconvenience in ESO or a non-issue outside of it (unless you're unfortunate and get knocked off a cliff).

1 hour ago, nslay said:

So then, how can Garuda be a "balanced" nuke and with setup and Khora not when Khora also needs considerable setup?

Spamming 1 takes far less effort than the following:

1. Using Dread Mirror on enemies a few times to build up damage on ball
2. Channel 4 to increase the radius of the ability and how many enemies it can hit
3. Channel Dread Mirror to charge up the damage ball and then launch it

The channeling of both her 4 and 1 makes Garuda both slow and vulnerable as she loses the barrier from her Dread Mirror. She is much easier to target and shoot during this time, making the effort a lot more dangerous in high level missions.

All Khora needs to do is spam 1 a few times to kill the groups of enemies around her. Again, 10-14 meter radius on a max range setup, very easy to 1shot large groups with. And even if I was to be generous and use Strangledome, which has a 20 second base duration, the effort it takes to put it down is menial plus it CCs the enemy while caught.

And again, you've said yourself that it's easy to build combo count. Thanks to both Naramon and the new Xoris, maintaining it is a non-issue.

1 hour ago, nslay said:

You're grouping Khora in with frames that actually can really just essentially press 4 and kill everything on an entire map. Khora cannot do anything like that.

If she can 1shot large groups of enemies by doing nothing except spamming one button, she's a nuke frame. A poor nuke frame, but a nuke frame nontheless. And if we were to consider Strangledome, that doesn't help your argument. 😛

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6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

No it's not. You've said yourself several times that it's easy for Khora to build combo counter without even needing the Xoris. All you have to do is keep spamming 1 to build it and if you've modded her well enough, she should be able to 1shot most enemies right out the door.

Khora only builds +1 combo per Whipclaw no matter how many enemies she hits. You have to press 1 220 times to build up 220 combo which is ludicrous! (I actually went and tested this and it does accumulate more combo per enemy hit). It's still way more efficient to use your melee weapon to build combo. Even if you modded her well, you're missing a significant amount of damage using her 1 without any setup! And no, a comboless Khora with no Accumulating Whipclaw stacks (especially!) does not necessarily 1 shot enemies right out the door. Khora's Whipclaw is an otherwise unremarkable weapon with 300 base damage damage (100 IPS) with 25% crit, 2x crit damage and 20% status. Mod your "stat stick" all you want... there are plenty of examples of enemies that cannot be one shot with that without any setup. Whether that's using Ensare for 2x damage, building Accumulating Whipclaw stacks, building up combo for Bloodrush/Weeping wounds or Gladiator mods.

6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

A max range Khora build gives Whipclaw a 10-14m radius which is large enough to 1shot any group. If you build Khora for nuking, and most players I've seen tend to do that, you'll most likely run max range. The reduced damage the setup would incur will balance itself out with sufficient combo count.

That's not even close to the same as a real nuke frame that can wipe an entire map with a button press. Nobody joins a game and goes... "Oh man! There's a Khora who can kill a ball of enemies in 10-14m radius... now my fun is ruined!" And what is the density of a normal mission? How many enemies normally occur in a 10-14m radius? What is the strategy you use to increase your efficiency? That's where you need setup.

6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I've only brought up ESO once, namely to demonstrate how broken she's gotten with the Xoris. You're the one who wants to keep using that example.

And it's incorrect that enemies don't spawn like that outside of ESO. I've run plenty of endless missions to see enemies rush in from other rooms in packs tight enough for her Whipclaw to 1shot. Just because she has to cast it a few more times than a Saryn or Volt to tag all of the groups doesn't make her not a nuke.

Your entire complaint in this thread is based on a Brozime video! Your first response to me that there isn't a problem with Khora is a Brozime video of him doing a run in ESO. Particularly him killing a bunch of enemies caught in a Strangledome behind a wall.

Tell you what... find a me a non-ESO OP Khora video. Or make a video. It should be easy because you surely can reproduce the exaggerated conditions of Brozime's video in non-ESO missions so easily.

6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

This only applies to Accumulating Whipclaw augment.

And again, you've said yourself that it's easy to build combo multi so having the bug fixed is only going to be a temporary inconvenience in ESO or a non-issue outside of it (unless you're unfortunate and get knocked off a cliff).

Yes, a minor inconvenience where a 300 IPS weapon with 25% crit chance, 2x crit damage, and 20% status chance does ~2450% more damage in Zone 8 at the get go with no setup!

6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Spamming 1 takes far less effort than the following:

You don't just spam one. You pull out your melee, you build combo (because you can do it much faster than using Whipclaw alone!) and you use Strangledome and wait for enemies to accumulate. Strangledome is a big key to "nuking."

6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

All Khora needs to do is spam 1 a few times to kill the groups of enemies around her. Again, 10-14 meter radius on a max range setup, very easy to 1shot large groups with. And even if I was to be generous and use Strangledome, which has a 20 second base duration, the effort it takes to put it down is menial plus it CCs the enemy while caught.

This is just not true without setup. At the end of the day, the underlying Whipclaw weapon stats are unremarkable without any help like Accumulating Whipclaw or Acolyte mods with combo build up.

Take for example Scarlet Spear ground missions. There no Nullifiers or zone transitions to trigger the bug. Tell me with a straight face that Khora can spam 1 a few times and kill those high level Grineer and Sentients without any setup. I know this is not true! I've lived it!

And then there's matter of Strangledome. Yes, it's easy to put a Strangledome down but it costs so much energy (you really notice this when you play Naramon!). And it also has considerably smaller range than the infamous map nuking frames. Khora has to wait for enemies to accumulate in the Strangledome and a map nuking frame can just press a button for the entire map. It sure didn't do anything for me in Zone 5 of my video! That Khora spams 1 to use a pseudo melee weapon is irrelevant... it's not the "nuke" you make it out to be.

6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

If she can 1shot large groups of enemies by doing nothing except spamming one button, she's a nuke frame. A poor nuke frame, but a nuke frame nontheless. And if we were to consider Strangledome, that doesn't help your argument.

Suggesting Khora is a "poor nuke frame" invalidates your argument entirely. Why, what are we even arguing? Khora is a "poor nuke frame" like almost all non-nuke-frames out there! Because a nuke frame is one that can wipe most of a map with the press of a 4 and Khora is not anywhere near that... especially without any setup. That a frame relies on a single ability to kill (for Khora, the only damage ability) is irrelevant to the "nuke" tag. It's not even different than using a single gun or melee to do the same.

EDIT: Ultimately, it seems to be that you define a "nuke" as a frame that uses 1 ability to kill. I define a nuke frame as a frame that has considerable range (map wide range) in killing, regardless of how the killing is done. And I think most people complain about the latter frames.

I submit to to you... Revenant is a nuke frame. With easy setup of Enthralling 7 enemies, he can one shot 7 enemies (no matter the level) and do more damage than any other frame in the game with just 1 ability and little setup (by the way, endurance runners only use Reave to kill enemies like this at high levels). Well, he's a "poor nuke frame." This is clearly silly.

Edited by nslay
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@Pizzarugi

For curiosity and for your information, I've recorded a test run of Khora in 1 zone of ESO. There is no opportunity for using the Accumulating Whipclaw bug.

Spoiler

 

This week, the zone begins with Grineer. As you can see, a properly modded Khora with no setup cannot actually 1 shot enemies. That makes sense because her Whipclaw is an unremarkable base weapon with 300 base damage, 25% crit chance, 2x crit damage and 20% status chance.

Also you can see examples of Whipclaw not consistently hitting enemies through obstacles and walls (it does work sometimes). There are plenty of examples of exploiting ESO's spawning mechanics and cleverly placed Strangledome. This also shows Strangledome being the sole reason Khora can look so fantastical in ESO. There aren't very many examples of Whipclaw by itself being this amazing map/room clearing ability its made out to be.

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Isn't Strangledome the really OP ability of hers? Huge permanent CC + 200% damage + damage distribution + permanent Radiation proc + unaffected by Nullifiers + bonus loot with the augment.

Other stationary CC abilities do half of that, don't affect Nullifers, and evaporate entirely once the bubble touches them.

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3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

200% damage

Strangledome is actually 50% damage but this is irrelevant anyway because Whipclaw hits so hard that a 0.5 damage factor makes no difference.

4 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Other stationary CC abilities do half of that, don't affect Nullifers, and evaporate entirely once the bubble touches them.

Nullifiers do delete vertices of the Strangledome but otherwise you're right. There is no other defense ability that isn't entirely erased by nullifiers. However, Nullifiers are otherwise immune to Strangledome until the bubble is removed (then they are grabbed by any of the remaining vertices). On the other hand, I'm not aware of any radiation procs from Strangledome. It does do a small amount of Slash-like damage (but it's very small).

In terms of a defense ability, her Strangledome doesn't block damage to a defense target. While it was possible for a Khora with an entire squad DPSes to kill 17 Condrixes in Scarlet Spear (which I took great pleasure every time when not needing Limbo!), it was still difficult to pull off because Strangledome doesn't block damage to the OpLinks. Limbo, Frost and Gara could provide more solid defense to the OpLinks. I'm not really sure Strangledome itself is OP given its limitations (compared to other frames with similar defense mechanisms).

As a looting ability... Well, first of all, you can't always fit the loot augment. And second of all it seems pretty comparable in AOE looting capabilities as Nekros and Hydroid, no? Yeah, I don't know. What does an OP looting ability look like? Nekros can make more "corpses" to loot with a high slash weapon like Kohm. Khora can't do that.. does that mean Nekros' loot ability is OP? I honestly don't care too much about loot augments (except for Survival and Excavation where it helps for life support modules and power cores).

 

 

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6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Isn't Strangledome the really OP ability of hers? Huge permanent CC + 200% damage + damage distribution + permanent Radiation proc + unaffected by Nullifiers + bonus loot with the augment.

Other stationary CC abilities do half of that, don't affect Nullifers, and evaporate entirely once the bubble touches them.

 


It is affected by Nullifier's. The dome is not one entity, and they will dispel certain parts as they come into contact with them.

It got "Radiation" proc's to hinder you, if the enemies manages to kill their own allies who are tied up that is to your disadvantage, that being said it is also very unlikely that they will manage to kill their own allies. And redirecting some shots are nice, as long as it is not enough to kill the one tied up that is.

And yes, 65% extra loot with a augment, but a augment is not free, that takes a mod slot.

And no, it is not some type of ultimate CC that overshadows everything else, it only got a 10m pull radius, or a 5m tie up radius at base power, that is on the mediocre side. It also have a limited amount of targets that can be CC, most CC skills are not limited to that. You can also only ever have two of them, once again most CC skills are not limited like that.

Edited by Hellmaker2004
Correction, Correction. It does not have a 2x Multiplier for Whipclaw.
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1 minute ago, nslay said:

Strangledome is actually 50% damage [...] Nullifiers are otherwise immune to Strangledome [...] I'm not aware of any radiation procs from Strangledome. [...] (except for Survival and Excavation where it helps for life support modules and power cores).

Enemies affected take double damage, Nullifiers shoot enemies held inside (they become targets for their allies), which is essentially what a Radiation proc does. Extra loot is also nice for energy orbs.

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1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Enemies affected take double damage, Nullifiers shoot enemies held inside (they become targets for their allies), which is essentially what a Radiation proc does. Extra loot is also nice for energy orbs.

Enemies affected only take double damage when Ensnared. Not in Strangledome. Enemies hit by Whipclaw in Strangledome take 100% damage and the non-hit enemies in Strangledome take 50% damage.

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1 minute ago, nslay said:

Enemies affected only take double damage when Ensnared. Not in Strangledome.

You should edit the Wiki then, it says:

"While captured, enemies are strangled by the chains taking 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 damage per second and receive 200% damage from weapons and abilities. In addition, captured enemies have a raised Threat Level, become susceptible to friendly fire, and taunt their former allies into attacking them."

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