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Still, the turret's duration seems completely underwhelming. DE, I'd like to keep the 2 key on my keyboard intact, thankyouverymuch.

Simply put, even if the ability is good - which it'll probably be with the damage boost - having an ability that you need to constantly refresh every 4 seconds is bad game designing. Worst if you have to do it 3 times every 4 seconds. Hell, even if it's a godlike ability, the constant button mashing is not worth it.

Player comfort is a a thing that influences ability usage whether you like it or not. Many times I found myself not using an ability of certain frames simply because it's too clunky or too annoying to use. Take Wisps 4 for example. It's a good ability, deals decent damage, and I even have a dedicated cookie-cutter build for it, but I simply don't use it because it's too clunky. I love wisp. I main Wisp. I've used her for a lot of hours since her release, and I have shared my build over an over to any other Wisp player I meet... but I don't use her sol gate. The VFX is annoying, the sound is annoying, it obstructs vision, you can't jump, you can't use other abilities or weapons, and still, sol gate is not better than any of the weapons in my arsenal, specially if I can pair those weapons with my reservoir buffs and my 3. 

A low-duration turret is just more of the same. Might have great numbers, might even devastate the enemy, but if it's not comfortable to use, it's not worth it. 

Edited by ixidron92
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3 минуты назад, ixidron92 сказал:

Simply put, even if the ability is good - which it'll probably be with the damage boost - having an ability that you need to constantly refresh every 4 seconds is bad game designing. Worst if you have to do it 3 times every 4 seconds.

And furthermore casting this ability prevents you from shooting, so you sacrificing a lot of damage for sub par ability.

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For a damage ability to be at all worthwhile, I have to have a reason to use it over my weapons. As it is currently, there is no reason to cast Protea's 2 over, say, just shooting my acceltra in the same general direction. Or my fulmin, or my arca plasmor even (won't even mention the Bramma). From what I can see, these "fixes" won't change that at all.

 

The best damage abilities are the ones that don't compete with my weapons for attention, but rather extend them. Sayrn's spores: I cast once, then need to shoot things for them to do their work. Protea's 2 is way too spammy as it is currently. If I am spamming the turret, I am not shooting my guns. So the ability comes with an opportunity cost way higher than the energy cost. Is it worth my while to stop shooting long enough to put up three turrets? Even with these changes, I'm afraid not.

Edited by CerealPlayer
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hace 5 minutos, anfuerudo dijo:

And furthermore casting this ability prevents you from shooting, so you sacrificing a lot of damage for sub par ability.

This, indeed. There are abilities that replace weapons and abilities that compliment weapons. If it's meant to replace weapons, it needs to be worth using, but raw destructive power alone doesn't make an ability worth using if it's too annoying to use. 

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3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Grenade Fan

  • Doubled the Damage of the Shrapnel Vortex grenade.

Not possible for it to scale like Vauban's? Fixed damage numbers on Warframe abilities is a thing of the past. Since nowadays Warframe is talking about moving forward (the new creator program etc) so why is scaling damage not a thing yet with most Warframe abilities?

Also, if Grenade Fan is throw while Protea is sprinting, she will be sprung/boosted forward the moment she throw the grenade, thus making aiming very difficult

Edited by kyori
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3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Most of these changes aren't negative in spirit, but they aren't enough (seeing other comments and such).

Please let her take advantage of Volt's shield buffs. This is anti-synergenic for honestly no reason as other Warframes do benefit from this interaction, and it's just silly not to allow Protea to as well. This reminds me of of the time that it was decided that Mesa can't use Arcane Velocity anymore and people responded accordingly...

I agree, it's bogus to make abilities, and then make them not do what they're supposed to 90% of the time for completely arbitrary reasons.

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1 hour ago, Yrkul said:

Ugh! The shield VFX is already obnoxious, if the caster chose even just a semi-bright colour. I'm not a fan of your recent penchant for filling our screens with bright particle effects. It only gives an incentive to avoid playing with others.

and wasn't the apparent playerbase complaining of Bramma's VFX and noise one excuse given for nerfing her? Ivara Prime's Prowl VFX got changed sooo them giving Protea all bright shinies is very hypocritical of DE I think, would you agree?

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3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Grenade Fan

  • Increased Duration of both grenades by 3 seconds.

Blaze Artillery

  • Increased Duration of Blaze Artillery by 1 second, and doubled the Damage multiplier to compete against higher level enemies. Duration will now show in Arsenal stats instead of the maximum number of shots.

Our goal here is to keep the spirit of the rapid fire Artillery alive, with just a bit more punch. We will monitor for feedback after this change as well. 

Not sure if 3 seconds will be enough of a duration buff to her grenades, but we will see. 30 seconds currently in game at 306% duration is really not great (especially for the shield grenade), so any buff is better than nothing. As for Blaze Artillery, frankly I think the duration stat just needs to be ditched entirely. I think it would be much more worth using if it was purely an ammo based power, as duration mods already affect the ammo count (yes it has a duration AND ammo count for those who don't know). That way the turret doesn't sit there doing nothing when it can't hit enemies for whatever reason and therefore wasting its duration and the energy used to spawn it. The duration is so awful as is that it never uses all of its ammo. Maybe introduce a cap of two instances of Blaze Artillery at a time to compensate. 

Edited by DawnoftheWhiteFury
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Her 4 should just be a continuous ability, press it again to go back X seconds back based on duration. Wouldn't need to record the whole game, just the previous X seconds that would then be deleted.

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All this has told me is that DE still hasn't learned a damn thing from prior experiences.

 

Vauban got a similar treatment after his last rework just basic flat damage buffs and he still struggled to do anything with his kit, then they changed it to use scaling damage and it was a whole new ball game, he actually became a viable frame choice.

 

Did they learn from that experience? Seems not since they just made the same mistake with Protea here. 

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Even though I'm console only, I'm curious and a bit worried about the turret for protea being non scaled... everything else sounds great in words except that to me... as for one eager to use her, I am curious if cert was done on console or in the middle or not started yet? Just because you did mention slipping it in under console cert... (which to me sounds like it's in cert and these fixes will be implemented when its cert cleared and added to the update?) 

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Oh boy ... Can i have only one favor to ask? Just one?

Can you please reiterate the current and future state of Protea based on the fact the Wisp exists and how large the differences are in their kits both in accessibility and strength?

I get it, slash granade can cover a wide area with no restriction (as far as i know) on their number on the field but the electric reservoir is a fire and forget ability with infinite duration that can be refreshed on every ally easily (it actually helps companions survive). With the changes you have a base duration of 13 sec (be it 15s please it looks odd) and 5 meters base range competing against 30 sec duration and 15 meter range. I know grenades stack but they overlap eachother so it's smaller than 15m and you havet to aim there not just walk up to an enemy and CC it for eternity. Also the damage Wisp can provide with the haste buff is probably way too good than any amount of slash proc Protea can put out.

I don't know how to feel about the lack of changes with shield grenade but using it in Tandem with Temporal anchor and Rolling guard i can see some interesting gameplay coming out of this.

With the dispenser i have the feel you are afraid it becomes way too powerful as a replenishing tool but again if you think in context loot frames, arcane energize, the bazillion of healing options, ammo mutation etc makes the ability already redundant and it's barely anything more than a gimmick BUT providing resources is always welcomed however the way currently it does it is really  really underwhelming. If nothing else please reduce the casting cost to 50 energy. 

PS: Okay this turned out to be more than one. Oopsie.

 

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The changes look good, but if I could suggest one more thing:

Tweak her dodge, for the love of Ordis! It comes out so bloody quick that it feels super flimsy, and it doesn't flow very well with general warframe movement. An aerial cartwheel is a cool dodge, but draw it out so I at least have time to appreciate it, please?

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suggestion (well, three of them): shield satellite should not be usable by allies (sentinels/pets) and instead be applied to them when their partner warframe picks them up.

as well, i think that blaze artillery should be made to be protea's exalted weapon so it can scale better than it does now and keep up based on the player's mods.

finally, i think that dispensary should have a way to be tethered to protea so it can follow her around so it is more useful when on the move.

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On 2020-06-16 at 3:24 AM, Aeon94 said:

I have played with Protea a lot and wanted to post my feedback and suggestions for her.

Passive - is fine as is.

[1] Grenade Fan - Base duration of Shrapnel Vortex and Shield Satellite are increased to 15 sec.

Base number of grenades is 3 and Protea throws an additional grenade for every 100% Ability Strength she has ( Synergy with Passive ). 

Shrapnel Vortex - is fine as is.

Shield Satellite - Protea gets a Shield Satellite automatically on cast. Grabbing another Shield Satellite refreshes buff duration. Shield Satellite with better effectiveness overrides the weaker one.

// I like the jump animation on cast, it can stay but one handed cast would be nice. //


[2] Blazing Artillery - Duration limit is removed and each Turret has 12 plasma ammo ( unaffected by ability mods ). Turrets disappear when they use all of their ammo.

Each turret shot deals 200 / 250 / 300 Heat Damage with 100% status chance. Plasma shots can pierce through all enemies in their path. Blaze Artillery's overall damage increases by 20% for each successful hit against all enemies caught in a plasma shots, stacking for subsequent plasma charges.

  • Number of remaining shots and damage multiplers are shown on the rear of turrets.
  • Turret firing arc is increased to 150 degree cone.
  • Damage scales with enemy level ;
  Reveal hidden contents

Total Heat Damage = Heat Damage × (1 + Ability Strength) × Enemy Level Multiplier

Enemy Level Multiplier = ceil(Enemy Level ÷ 10). The multiplier only increases after 1 level past the per-10-levels mark (e.g. levels 11, 21, 31, 41, etc).

// Blazing Artillery needs to be one handed cast because of its spammable nature and it has to have some sort of scaling to shine. //

[3] Dispensary - Base duration is increased to 30 sec.

// I wholeheartedly wish this ability was changed to something else entirely, Yes, its cool to create energy / health / ammo and have synergies with some of the mods ( Synth Fiber, Equilibrium etc. ) but it feels like a wasted ability slot. Since this ability is not gonna get scrapped anytime soon , all I can ask is a bit more duration. //

[4] Temporal Anchor - Protea gains 20% cast speed and 20% movement speed for the duration and creates " Checkpoints " throughout 10 sec to save her state.

Checkpoints are created at every quarter of the duration, the first being created immediately on cast ( Anchor Point ). The final checkpoint is created when three-quarters of the duration has elapsed. Whenever a new checkpoint is created, the older one is removed ( Anchor Point is exempt from this ). Checkpoint is shown with different visual effect than afterimages.

// Works similar to Quicksave function. //

  • Tap - Full Rewind : Rewinds Protea back to anchor. She creates Explosions on both her last location and at anchor point.
  • Hold - Quick Rewind : Rewinds Protea back to checkpoint. Explosion occurs only on Protea's last location.

Both rewind actions end Temporal Anchor prematurely.

Explosion damage are equal to the 30% of damage done during Temporal Anchor. Explosion has 20 meters base range and damage type is changed to radiation.

Protea keeps her present position and state when duration expires. Anchor and checkpoint are destroyed. ( Current " Hold to Cancel " mechanic becomes a  passive effect. )

// If checkpoint and quick rewind ideas are hard to implement, then just remove forced rewind on ability expiration, add explosion to rewind and give her cast & movement speed buffs for ability duration. //

Edited by Aeon94
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Nice changes, definitely a step in the right direction. I‘m not sure if it will fix her problems though. Here‘s a short list of changes I think would make her a lot more enjoyable to play:

1) Her grenades are probably her best ability at the moment, but i think they would benefit a lot from scaling damage. As it stands right now they are just worse flechette orbs.

Also change her shield grenades to not break when her shields get depleted, but have them stay for the full duration regardless of shield status.

2) Her turret has the same problem as the shrapnel grenades. It‘s not bad against lower level enemies, but lacks scaling to be useful against higher tier opponents. Either also add damage scaling, make the turret benefit from primary/secondary mods or modable on its own like exalted weapons. Also remove its duration and limit it to one turret at a time with a certain amount of ammo. The turret will disappear once the ammo is depleted or another one is placed, like Wisps Motes. This gives players the ability to plan ahead and use the turret to cover a flank they‘re not paying attention to, instead of being a short burst of lackluster damage.
At the moment you might just rather want to shoot your weapon than spam those things around.

3) Dispensary is fine i think. The visibility upgrade is a nice and welcome change.

4) Remove the necessity to manually place the anchor, but always record the last x seconds based on duration. Pressing 4 will just start the rewind. Pressing 4 again during rewind or rewinding for the max duration will stop the rewind. After rewinding you gain a short period of immunity to damage but the rewind will be on a cooldown for x seconds so you can‘t just spam it and to compensate for the technical difficulty of not recording the entire mission.

At the moment it‘s just really clunky to use and i don‘t really see any practical use-case for it that‘s not really niche. This change would allow it to work like a panic button you could activate to get out of an unfavorable position.

Still looking forward to test her upcoming changes.

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If you find in feedback that blaz artillery isn't keeping up in high level still, perhaps add a damage synergy with shrapnel grenades? Any enemy in shrapnel field gets more damage from the turret. Just a thought if people feel it needs a bit more.

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15 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Grenade Fan

  • Increased Duration of both grenades by 3 seconds.
  • Increased Range of both grenades at max rank from 4 to 5 meters.
    • For Shield Satellite, this applies to the grenade pickup Range.
  • Increased Shield Satellite grenade count from 3 to 4 to accommodate max Squad sizes.
  • Increased visibility FX on available Shield Satellite grenades to aid in differentiating between the two grenades.
  • Doubled the Damage of the Shrapnel Vortex grenade.
  • Fixed Protea's Grenade Fan/ Shield Satellites appearing giant while using Archwing.

Our goal here is to improve efficacy, usability, and logic of Grenade Fan! 

VERY GOOD 9/10

13 seconds will still make it feel very short (for the shield version that is), where pre hot fix leveling it felt AMAZING at 20 seconds. on Rank 2, maybe just double the duration on shield grenade? and keep damage grenade at 10 seconds.

 

15 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Blaze Artillery

  • Increased Duration of Blaze Artillery by 1 second, and doubled the Damage multiplier to compete against higher level enemies. Duration will now show in Arsenal stats instead of the maximum number of shots.
  • Protea’s Blaze Artillery will now shoot through Volt’s Shield, but won't benefit from its buffs.
  • Fixed Protea’s Blaze Artillery not targeting ragdolled enemies. 

good start, this will not be enough though, you can tell without even testing it.. 4/10 still

people cry for damage to much when this isn't even the main issue.. the abilitys damage is fine, and it would be even better had it been given more time to ramp that damage up.. a 1 second increase in duration really feel like a punch to the face, it will make no diffrence and we still need to spam it constantly. it needs a major duration increase or overhaul.

make it consistant, make it last at least 10 seconds unmodded. otherwise it just feels bad to have to spam it over and over when vauban already has a much better version of this (even though proteas turret looks so much cooler! which is the only thing it has going for itself). or change it to a real ammo system, where it has 24 ammo, and then only disapears when all shots are shot, or it is replaced, or is reloaded through a new synergy with temporal anchor or dispensary ammo pickups it can have

15 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Temporal Anchor

  • Protea is now invulnerable for the first 3 seconds of Temporal Anchor (i.e on cast, to prevent casting animation deaths).

I mean, its a neat fix if people had problems dying during the animation, but this does not change the fact that the ability is rearely even useful.. I justh ave to tell you that it needs a little redsign too.. the best solution from the forum really would be to just make it a toggable spell that reconds the last 5 seconds always, and then you can press it again to rewind from a tricky situations, that way you actaully have it ready when you need it, instead of having to know the future where you MIGHT be in a tricky spot in 8 seconds where you would need it..

the energy saving is nice, but not at ll needed when we already have infinite energy on her thanks to her 3, and we don't want to spam her abilitys anyway since we want more duration on her spells (which is clear to all now I think)

also the damage component doesn't really make a lot of sense when you stack it by killing everything, what is left to deal damage to? and then the damage scales poorly.. making it more of a CC ability, like suspending enemys in the air (aka time locking them) would be a much better solution here. or add some synergy into it, reloading her turret or something like that

still a 6/10 ability.

15 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Dispensary

  • Protea’s Dispensary location is now displayed on the minimap in the form of the Ability icon.
    • Similar to Wisp’s Reservoirs! 

its perfect 11/10

 

 

so all in all, THANK YOU DE for always listening and making such a great game! I really dearly appreciate it!

just give her even more love, there is no need to be afraid of making her to strong or "afk" since we already have frames that do it much better, like wukong with a perma turret, vaubans flachette orb or even Octavia. they are all doing the basically same thing, but metter.. so just give her the love a true turret frame deserves!

Edited by SmokinDice
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Turret still has limited duration ?

You should just swap her 2 and 4 and make turret better since rewind time has no absolute impact on playthrough. Explosion after rewind is just pathetic as Nyx.

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