Getting Knocked down, Staggered, and Tripped Way Too Often

[Joezone619]

i've noticed there is a growing problem, where players keep getting spam Knocked down by enemies and then just dying cuz they cant get back up to get away.

1 of 2 things needs to happen

A) Limit how often the player CAN be knocked down (limit how often enemies withing (#)meters can perform a knockdown move

or

B) Give the player a Knock Down immunity timer that lasts 1-3 seconds so they have a chance to move and get away from the spam KD/KB/Stagger

Edited June 18, 2020 by Joezone619

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Use Nezha or Gauss.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Ooorrrr, you could use the mods that actually help you reduce stagger and a quicker recovery time for that.

[Joezone619]

shouldn't need to use specific mods or 1 or 2 frames just to play the game normally when a squad of moa's spam stomp.

[Teksorbkyva]

I would love to see a cooldown on knockdown/stagger sources because so many enemies can do it these days. Almost every recent Corpus melee unit has the ability to stagger with every hit or produce fast AoE knockdown, most notably those guys on the Orb Vallis who yeet themselves at you and produce a shockwave that bumps you up into the air and- if you don't jump or roll in time- are forced to play the hard landing animation. They're not the worst though. The worst is ancients, not just in the frequency they can knock you down, but the fact that stunning or freezing them in some way often does not cancel their knockdown attack. They can be spinning as a ragdoll in the air and that dastardly hookshoot will hit you clean in the face. As of a couple updates ago, knockdown no longer auto-recovers either, just to add to the frustration.

Much like how we now have shield gating, there should be some protection towards repeated knockdown/stagger. Unless you're running a frame that has built-in knockdown resistance, you're going to have to waste a slot (and possibly a forma because Primed Sure Footed costs a lot of points) on mod(s) to counteract it all. That's my 2 cents.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Teksorbkyva

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, Joezone619 said:

shouldn't need to use specific mods or 1 or 2 frames just to play the game normally when a squad of moa's spam stomp.

The stomp can't hit you if you jump before the shockwave touches you.

[Joezone619]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

The stomp can't hit you if you jump before the shockwave touches you.

ancient grabs,  arson eximus,  and besides the mods dont even really fix it, they just turn KD into KB flinging you into the air or staggering you.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

3 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

shouldn't need to use specific mods or 1 or 2 frames just to play the game normally when a squad of moa's spam stomp.

As Pizzarugi said you can jump over that. I know Warframe doesn't require much skill but if you took the time to learn how to play a little better you won't be bothered by this as much.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, Joezone619 said:

ancient grabs,  arson eximus,  and besides the mods dont even really fix it, they just turn KD into KB flinging you into the air or staggering you.

Rolling mitigates both.

There's nothing wrong with trying to slot in Constitution (knockdown recovery speed + ability duration) and/or Power Drift (ability strength + knockdown resist), because they can benefit your frame in other ways.

[Joezone619]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

As Pizzarugi said you can jump over that. I know Warframe doesn't require much skill but if you took the time to learn how to play a little better you won't be bothered by this as much.

cant jump over an ancient grab, or wall of fire from eximus.and besides if the moas are spamming stomp you have to hit the ground sometime even if to heavy attack.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

5 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

cant jump over an ancient grab, or wall of fire from eximus.and besides if the moas are spamming stomp you have to hit the ground sometime even if to heavy attack.

You can dodge an ancients grab and block it with your melee. You can back filp the wall of fire. Moas spamming stomp you? Wall cling, roll, bullet jump in the air then roll away. There are ways of avoiding everything they throw at you.

Edited June 18, 2020 by (XB1)Shodian

[Teksorbkyva]

To those arguing that it's just a matter of "skill": Have you never been frustrated from knockdown? Getting chain-grabbed one-by-one from a group of Ancients? Staggered into infinity and beyond (death) by a Terra Trencher? Sometimes it's not a matter of human skill. Knockdown and stagger should stay in the game as a way to check your situational awareness, but it is not always humanly possible in tight quarters or with dozens of enemies surrounding you. Getting nicked by a single ancient before you can cast your ult isn't the problem, it's the 3 other instances of knockdown you suffer immediately after, in quick succession, and in spite of the crowd control measures you or an ally may have applied to enemies.

No enemies should be able to continue with an attack if stunned, especially Ancients and units with radial knockdown abilities. You have witnessed this happening if you've played a lot of Infested or Grineer survival. It's hella inconsistent. You toss an enemy back with a Fireball and suddenly a shockwave erupts from their crotch and you go flying too. It just shouldn't happen. That alone would solve my frustrations.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

3 minutes ago, Teksorbkyva said:

To those arguing that it's just a matter of "skill": Have you never been frustrated from knockdown?

No because I get the heck outta dodge if it gets too hairy in one spot. Plus I have mods that help me recover faster.

[Bakaguya-sama]

The unfortunate thing is Warframe survivability is too damn high right now. Most warframes either have some massive damage reduction ability built in, being straight up tanky, being supported by Magus Repair/Arcane Grace/Arcane Guardian/shield Arcanes, and shield gating preventing people from getting 1 shotted, or even if they die they can easily revive thanks to spoiler mode, and with dirt cheap r3 arcanes most people have 5 lives.  .  

So to add a challenge, DE have to find some other way than simply killing the Warframe. I think having mobs spam CC is a good medium. Of course you are supposed to feel frustrated if you keep getting knocked on the floor. That's a sign to tell you that you should play safer.  

Think back to the self-damage removal - it's the same thing. People hate dying, so DE have to add in a challenge somehow. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Bakaguya-sama

[Joezone619]

Well being Knocked down isn't the issue here, i agree, warframe should be harder and things, KD is an interesting alternative to just taking a bunch of damage. The issue comes when you KEEP getting knocked down on repeat and cant move at all cuz your still in animations and get knocked down while in animations, triggering the animaions and then being knocked down again while still in animation. they're adding alot of KD enemies which i think is great. but give us a KD invulnerability timer even if its 1s after animation so we can get the hell out of dodge and not get spam Knocked down. this problem is especially prevalent in moa's and ancients. moas will all spam the  KD ability at different times, and ancients will just keep grabbing you in sequence so even if you roll and dodge, the next ancient is already grabbing you so you dont have time to stop it.

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, Teksorbkyva said:

To those arguing that it's just a matter of "skill": Have you never been frustrated from knockdown? Getting chain-grabbed one-by-one from a group of Ancients? Staggered into infinity and beyond (death) by a Terra Trencher?

Not really.

Rolling makes you immune to knockdown and you can immediately do it as soon as you get back up. Roll out of the mess and then try to deal with the situation at hand.

[Pizzarugi]

51 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

The unfortunate thing is Warframe survivability is too damn high right now. Most warframes either have some massive damage reduction ability built in, being straight up tanky, being supported by Magus Repair/Arcane Grace/Arcane Guardian/shield Arcanes, and shield gating preventing people from getting 1 shotted, or even if they die they can easily revive thanks to spoiler mode, and with dirt cheap r3 arcanes most people have 5 lives.  .  

So to add a challenge, DE have to find some other way than simply killing the Warframe. I think having mobs spam CC is a good medium. Of course you are supposed to feel frustrated if you keep getting knocked on the floor. That's a sign to tell you that you should play safer.  

Think back to the self-damage removal - it's the same thing. People hate dying, so DE have to add in a challenge somehow. 

This is the sad reality of things. The game is way too easy in several fronts, but instead of nerfing the problems, DE has decided to try and implement other means of adding difficulty into the game.

Players spam too many nukes? Nullifier Crewmen, Scrambus enemies, Grineer Nox, Sentient enemies being resistant or outright immune to abilities, hard-to-spot energy leech eximus
Players too naturally tanky? Enemy CC spam and the occasional glass cannon enemy (Grineer Seers are still a thing)

Edited June 18, 2020 by Pizzarugi

[Joezone619]

10 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Rolling makes you immune to knockdown and you can immediately do it as soon as you get back up.

no you cant. not anymore, you can get knocked down while at the end of the getting back up animations before you can move again, making you able to be spam KD'ed

[Kayll]

19 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

This is the sad reality of things. The game is way too easy in several fronts, but instead of nerfing the problems, DE has decided to try and implement other means of adding difficulty into the game.

Players spam too many nukes? Nullifier Crewmen, Scrambus enemies, Grineer Nox, Sentient enemies being resistant or outright immune to abilities, hard-to-spot energy leech eximus
Players too naturally tanky? Enemy CC spam and the occasional glass cannon enemy (Grineer Seers are still a thing)

Are these enemies not difficulty?
You can't fault an enemy for being dangerous because that's what they are designed to do,if an enemy is dangerous then that is a step in the right direction.
Even simple things like Cameras+Laser doors, while annoying yes, they do their job well, id rather them be in the game than not even if they can be annoying.
 

[TaIirah]

There's one thing i believe you forget about this situation. The game is about farming. So, if one level is hard and frustrating with a lot of mechanics you have to be aware of, facing it from time to time is okay. But the way warframe is made, you face this situation a LOT because you are mostly doing the same content again and again and again.
And why are you doing that ? For fun ? Maybe. In hope of looting something like a mod, bp, part or resource ? Probably. And what happend when, in the end, after all the frustration you have endured, you get nothing of what you came for ? More frustration.

And the more you progress in this game, the more likely you are to face situation with frustrating mechanics (aka "challenging") while the pool of interesting things to loot is reducing. So, the way i see it, the farther you go into this game, the more you become frustrated. I'm not convinced that "fixing" these CC issues would make the game less frustrating as a whole, even if i agree that these constant CC are frustrating.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Tonelyon

[Steel_Rook]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

No because I get the heck outta dodge if it gets too hairy in one spot. Plus I have mods that help me recover faster.

Please understand that I mean no offence when I say this, but: I don't believe you. Exaggerating to this extent does not help your argument, and just makes you come across as disingenuous. Rather than meeting people half-way, you're straight-up denying that a problem exists, and I simply don't buy that. Take one step into Orb Vallis, maybe do a Profit-Taker Bounty. Knockback in Warframe is progressively getting out of control. Having some amount of cooldown before we can be knocked back again so we don't end up getting thrown around like ragdolls or dragged all over the place for extended periods of time would be nice.

 

11 hours ago, Kayll said:

You can't fault an enemy for being dangerous because that's what they are designed to do,if an enemy is dangerous then that is a step in the right direction.
Even simple things like Cameras+Laser doors, while annoying yes, they do their job well, id rather them be in the game than not even if they can be annoying.

There's a point past which "danger" turns into "frustration," and that's almost always when crowd control abilities are used on the player. Taking control away from the player and killing them (or at least dealing serious damage) while they can't do anything about it is "dangerous" in the literal sense of the word... But it's not the kind of danger that makes for a fun experience. It's the kind of danger that makes people yell at their PCs, because it feels cheap and cheesy. It doesn't help that knockback-capable enemies seem to always open with said knockback attacks. Ancients, for instance, always open with the grappling hook, then switch to the stretchy arm. That's fine if you can see them, not so much if they hook you from behind. Flame Exiums enemies are even worse, because there's really no dodging their wave short of breaking line of sight, thus limiting player movement more than creating a meaningful challenge.

DE seem to be aware of this, actually. Butcher ground slams, for instance, don't knock the player down - they just push us aside. One of the new Juno Moas, similarly, drops pellets on the ground which throw us into the air but don't take control away from us. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with enemies being able to use CC on us in theory, but all too often it's used en masse and chained together. That's when it becomes irritating. And sure, I can slot for knockdown protection. Or I can just take Inaros. Bottlenecking build diversity is generally not a positive action.

[Kayll]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

...

Most aoe knockdowns can simply be jumped over,
Arson Eximus' waves can just be rolled through and they don't knock you down,
Laser Walls can be rolled through as well
Scorpions/Ancient's are predictable since its the first move they use
I'd say these are the biggest offenders when it comes to knocking the player down, but they all have means of negating it by using tools everyone has, jump,roll or not standing still.

The only thing I dislike is the scorpion/ancient's because there are times where they will start their animation and you have already moved behind them, leading them to shooting their tether out 180 degrees away from the direction their facing.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Kayll said:

Most aoe knockdowns can simply be jumped over, Arson Eximus' waves can just be rolled through and they don't knock you down, Laser Walls can be rolled through as well Scorpions/Ancient's are predictable since its the first move they use. I'd say these are the biggest offenders when it comes to knocking the player down, but they all have means of negating it by using tools everyone has, jump,roll or not standing still.

Yeah, and that works if you're duelling one of them. It's another story when you're getting hooked from all directions, however. There's a reason I cited the Profit-Taker fight. That spawns so many additional enemies that I'm constantly getting hooked from behind and charged by melee Crewmen unless I abandon the fight entirely. Individual knockbacks aren't the issue - they're avoidable. Chain knocbacks coming out of large mobs of enemies from all directions are the issue. Yes, those can also be avoidable, but more of then than not they feel like suckerpunches. Whenever I get hooked or knocked down in these situations, I almost never know what knocked me down or what it knocked me down with. That's no compelling gameplay. That's just a mess.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Take one step into Orb Vallis, maybe do a Profit-Taker Bounty. Knockback in Warframe is progressively getting out of control.

Not really, they give you the tools to overcome them but some people just refuse to use them.

That's like complaining about Dark Souls and some of the enemies stunlocking you. You don't complain about them being too hard and you demand it gets easier. No, you git gud. You learn patterns and you do your best to avoid it. I can do profit taker, because I learned how to fight her. Want to avoid all of the moss stomping the ground? You don't let the alert grow. Take out the beacons. Have a player be on point, take out the fodder before it gets too bad. No one wants to learn how to play, they just want everything handed to them.

[Steel_Rook]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

That's like complaining about Dark Souls and some of the enemies stunlocking you. You don't complain about them being too hard and you demand it gets easier. No, you git gud. You learn patterns and you do your best to avoid it. I can do profit taker, because I learned how to fight her. Want to avoid all of the moss stomping the ground? You don't let the alert grow. Take out the beacons. Have a player be on point, take out the fodder before it gets too bad. No one wants to learn how to play, they just want everything handed to them.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. For one thing, Warframe is not Dark Souls. It's surprising how many times I've had to say this on this forum, but it bears repeating. Warframe is not Dark Souls. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. For another thing, Dark Souls has fairly limited ranged combat and rarely pits the player against a large number of enemies. Warframe often has 20-30 people on-screen, in all directions around the player. There are no "patterns" to learn about people hooking you from behind. The game throws too many enemies spawning from too many locations to realistically pay attention to all of them, and it's not like only individual Specials can grapple you like is the case for L4D. The likes of Scorpions and grappling hook Moas are common enemies, and even Ancients can spawn a dozen at a time.

And please don't try to give me the "git gud" excuse. Telling me how to handle knockback doesn't make a difference because I'm fully able to handle knockback, either by playing something that's immune to it or just dealing with it as it happens. I'm able to handle stunlock and I still don't like it. It's a cheap mechanic with limited depth that's all too often best solved by simply killing everyone before they can get a shot off. Believe it or not, there are other reasons for people to dislike game mechanics other than being too dumb to play around them.