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Differences Between Volt...


SIDESTRE4M
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... and what you may ask. This line doesn't make any sense.

 

Well, let me explain, but first, this post will probably contain a lot of rant and own preferences and english is not my native language, so some sentences could be wacky.

 

So, where do I begin. Before I go into detail, I want to rant a bit: I think there are two categories of people interested in Volt.

 

Category A: Those guys who read the description ingame and think "whoa, electricity themed warframe. Sounds awesome."

 

Category B: Those that read forums, wiki, youtube and chose Volt (or any other frame for that instance) because they think, they maybe like what he is.

 

I will further refer to people from category A as Zeus-Casters and to B as Realists. There may be some mix between those two but I think, this is essentially it. Oh wait, let's give them a category on their own. Let's call them the Hardheads, because despite of what they know, they want to change it... for great justice.

 

While the Realists are often fully aware who they get exactly involved with if chosing Volt, knowing he could be broken or something. The Zeus-Casters don't care because they want to run arround shooting lightnings in the face of poor grineer because the ingame description implies it.

The hardheads however see how it is, but the difference between them the Realists is that they cannot move on to another frame which would suit them better, but try to change things in a totally different way, just because they think Volt sucks anyway so why not mess with him and make something totally awesome the world has never seen.

 

So who is right, who is not, who is maybe... I say no one.

 

There is no way to make it right for everyone so everyone fights for his or her own beliefs. They try to attract people to their opinions and if enough do so, they start feeling righteous.

 

However, how many people are playing Warframe? So if maybe ten people show up liking an idea, it doesn't neccessarily mean, that half of the userbase is behind him. Most people don't even care about forums. Ok, let's put it aside, this is getting nowhere.

 

I think, the realists have it best. They won't get surprised (at least not that surpised). They know, what they have/get and are either satisfied, see some potential to improve or are just disappointed and try to make things better or move on.

 

The Zeus-Casters have it worst. They quickly see, how hard their expectations differ from reality and that seems to be a big problem,

 

The hardheads however think in a different way. They depend on logics, idealism, whatever reason, why something has to be this or that way regardless the real outcome (which they still think would be cool).

 

 

SO WHY VOLT?

 

 

Volt seems to attract a lot of attention in the forums lately. A lot of people are upset the way he is. I don't know why he gets so much spotlight but I like it because he needs it. I'm a Volt fan too. I've forma'd him three times now and he is my main.

 

Here are the main reasons for dissatisfaction:

 

 

1.: Weak damage of Shock and Overload

 

They are right. Shock doesn't do that much damage and Overload does it neither. While Shock's intention probably never was to be a killer in the first place but a CC with some damage which is totally fine because it chainstuns. It is his first ability and it is a cheap one. Overload is situational and depends on the map because surrounding electronics can explode. This is a very nice touch flavorwise but what do you do, if not inside some corpus ships? Here I see potential.

 

My suggestions:

Make weapons of enemies explode. It's could be as simple as that because they take more damage and are left unarmed which would be nice too. And to make it even better: It makes sense in a rational way.

Invulnerability while casting or at least a 100% reliable stun would be nice too.

I will just ignore the Jesus reference because I think it is silly.

 

Shock is a tricky one because it's not clear if it's just meant to be a CC or just an outdated damage skill with some CC-effect left in it. Frankly, I don't know, because I just began playing recently, so I don't know about the history. What I know is: chainlightning killing high level enemies for low cost? Not gonna happen. If it would stun reliably and would maybe even debuff shields or something, it would still be nice.

 

 

2.: Synergy between skills

 

This is where the community splits appart and honestly I don't even know why exactly. My guess is, that people have several different expectations (Remember the categories?) AND playstyles. So just because Volt does suck in their point of view, some came up with the synergy-argument. Shield and Speed aren't about electricity they say.

 

I'm no physician, but an electric field stabilized and even blocking bullets? Seems far fetched to me but not more than space ninjas fighting against decaying aggro clones, laser obsessed high-tech ferengi-interpretations and really freaky... umm... multiple biological signals. With enough creativity, everything makes sense in its own way and I like the shields so I won't complain.

However this skill is often compared to Frost's bubble and at first glance, the bubble is superior. Yes, the bubble is larger, everyone can go camping in there and it's very reliable. On the downside, it doesn't grant a bonus if you shoot through and and you can't shoot through if not in it, reducing it to a fortification of a static spot like a cryo pod, a downed user or something like that, which is still awesome.

Volt's shield however can provide situational cover and grant various, often funky bonuses like red crits, killing ogris users, making torid hitscan and leaving the poison at the shield, is said to affect damage falloff of shotguns (which I couldn't confirm myself yet), improving range of ranged weapons like Flux Rifle, Spectra, Synapse and makes laserguns like Supra, Dera and Lanka hitscan. Oh well, and it adds electrical damage to projectiles passing through it. So it either is an easter egg, well places by the developers, just bugged like hell or most secret secret weapon, which makes it cool in it's own way.

It provides "offensive" cover, while frost bubble provides "defensive" cover. It depends on the situations and the playstyle which one is better.

 

Speed could easily be explained with overloading or infusing the suits so they can move faster. So yeah, it's all about electricity and a purely unique skill in the whole game so why take it away and replace it with some boring phewphew? 

 

My suggestions:

The shield could be a larger wall. Personally I play with the shield, walking around or through it just depending on the directions of enemies. It could be affected by range enhancing mods alternatively.

Some people want it to be mobile so they can move in all directions and walk with it. It seems to be not such a bad idea at first, but this way your back is wide open und you just can't do turtle formations or lined up formations anymore. Another user had a nice idea (sorry, forgot your name, please lift your hand in this thread) to make it stick to your crosshair and then be able to place it where you want. Sir, you are a genius and I like this idea.

Some think it is broken due to abusing the effects with synapse. It is only the half truth because you cannot deploy a shield for every enemy you see, so you have to set the situations up. Otherwise you've still got a nice primary weapon with a crippled range.

 

Speed FOV seem to annoy many players. I like it though. It makes you feel really fast. No real problemsolving here because you won't make it right for everyone.

 

 

Where to put him...

 

I can't think of another tactic using Volt instead of beeing like a strategic supporter. People relate electricity to destruction because of lightning arcs dealing severe damage. While this may be true, you've got already two skills that compliment (at least in theory) this facet. The other facet is, electricity powering systems or machines comforting our livestyle or helping with various things. So I think Volt is all about electricity and sums it up in a neat way.

 

He is a good option for speedruns or boss fights. I like him too for survival. The shields grant cover without blocking shot directions (except Ogris I guess xD) and buffs damage. He is no fast goner either because he has 150 base shield (like Rhino) in addition to still decent 100HP base. Armor is practically not existent but Rhino is no standard for that so it is still ok.

 

My suggestions:

He could maybe a bit faster. So raise base speed and maybe immunitiy or reduced damage from lightning sources (because it makes sense, but it is trivial).

 

 

The purpose of this thread...

 

... is to make suggestions for improvements without changing Volt completely and sharing my point of view. All his skills are fine the way they are, but could use some tweaks to make them really shine. One problem is to define where endgame content begins to draw a line for the power of his skills. At which level should Overload still be able to kill? That's good question and I don't know an answer. The only places where the level of enemies raise constantly are unlimited defense and survival so where to draw the line?

I just try to appeal to you, dear reader and potential Volt fan, not to be too greedy because maybe Armor 2.0 will change the powerlevel of frames and weapons and Volt is not glassy enough to be like Nova. He is a decent mix of skills which makes him something special and something more than just pressing some buttons to see everything explode.

 

So that's it. I gladly hear you opinions about it.

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Interesting, I haven't played the Volt yet (just crafted him in the foundry 2 days more...) but reading your explanation has given me some insights into what to expect when using him. Seeing as I just finished leveling my frost to 30 it may take me a while to get used to a fast/squishy warframe.

And btw props to your english! it's really good :) 

But having been with a volt or two on a few runs the speed boost is really nice, but perhaps you are right that it is not a "DPS warframe" rather than it is a utility and support warframe. Not all warframes need to be the "hero" just like in any mmo that roles have to be filled out in order for the game to work. xD

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Sidestre4m, what if you are in both camps? xD

I myself wouldn't mind either one

1) Buffing and tweaking his skills so they synergize better (there IS a serious lack of synergy between some of his skills, functionality-wise, not theme-wise)

or

2) Changing him to become a lightningcaster + creating a different Warframe that is the "steroid gunslinger" instead.

 

I realize that option 1 is the more likely one to happen, but number 2 actually has more potential. (Check the third post of mine in the following linked thread, which is about Volt etc, to see what i mean about serious potentials https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119575-azamagons-warframe-ability-balancing-part-2/ What do you think about that?)

 

A quick little note though: I say NO to the disarming effect on Overload, as it would make Loki's Ultimate obsolete.

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I just finished leveling my frost to 30 it may take me a while to get used to a fast/squishy warframe.

Actually, he has the highest base shields in the game, on par with Mag and Rhino (?). So he isn't that squishy. Especially when you can block off ~120 degrees of incoming fire. Add on Speed for a great GTFO button OR as a temporary Fury mod to go chop chop into a crowd of baddies (Galatine gets nasty in the hands of Volt).

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lots of stuff

Nice to you see you make this thread.

 

If the current rumors of Armor 2.0 buffing electrical damage in general are to be believed many of the complaints about shock and overload will probably die down since they will do what they are intended to do, damage and or stun.

 

On the subject of overload, only one tileset seems to have the lights to make it really shine. Its a cool idea and effect but it doesn't work in other tilesets making it even more situational. It definitely has the cool factor going on when lights start blowing out and you leave a dark hallway behind.

 

Shield is always controversial since it encourages the opposite playstyle of speed. Making it mobile and fixed to the crosshair would probably be the greatest change ever for this skill and class. Like you said the Idea has been bounced around, but I cannot recall who said it first.

 

 

Last but not least, your English is excellent. I didn't even know you weren't a native speaker.

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Interesting, I haven't played the Volt yet (just crafted him in the foundry 2 days more...) but reading your explanation has given me some insights into what to expect when using him. Seeing as I just finished leveling my frost to 30 it may take me a while to get used to a fast/squishy warframe.

And btw props to your english! it's really good :) 

But having been with a volt or two on a few runs the speed boost is really nice, but perhaps you are right that it is not a "DPS warframe" rather than it is a utility and support warframe. Not all warframes need to be the "hero" just like in any mmo that roles have to be filled out in order for the game to work. xD

 

Well if you have the slots, it couldn't hurt to try him out. Thx for the praise.^^

 

Sidestre4m, what if you are in both camps? xD

I myself wouldn't mind either one

1) Buffing and tweaking his skills so they synergize better (there IS a serious lack of synergy between some of his skills, functionality-wise, not theme-wise)

or

2) Changing him to become a lightningcaster + creating a different Warframe that is the "steroid gunslinger" instead.

 

I realize that option 1 is the more likely one to happen, but number 2 actually has more potential. (Check the third post of mine in the following linked thread, which is about Volt etc, to see what i mean about serious potentials https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119575-azamagons-warframe-ability-balancing-part-2/ What do you think about that?)

 

A quick little note though: I say NO to the disarming effect on Overload, as it would make Loki's Ultimate obsolete.

 

Synergy is something to be debated about. It's not the synergy you seek but a balanced set of skills. How many frames do you know, whose abilities can all be combined? So if that isn't the premise, then the only thing left is flavor.

 

If would consider play the other "gunslinger frame" if he had the shield and the speed and the shield stats like Volt.

 

Nice to you see you make this thread.

 

If the current rumors of Armor 2.0 buffing electrical damage in general are to be believed many of the complaints about shock and overload will probably die down since they will do what they are intended to do, damage and or stun.

 

On the subject of overload, only one tileset seems to have the lights to make it really shine. Its a cool idea and effect but it doesn't work in other tilesets making it even more situational. It definitely has the cool factor going on when lights start blowing out and you leave a dark hallway behind.

 

Shield is always controversial since it encourages the opposite playstyle of speed. Making it mobile and fixed to the crosshair would probably be the greatest change ever for this skill and class. Like you said the Idea has been bounced around, but I cannot recall who said it first.

 

 

Last but not least, your English is excellent. I didn't even know you weren't a native speaker.

 See above, Thx for the praise.^^

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I very much agree with a lot of what you are saying and you did a very great job with categorizing the groups of players who want a change in Volt.

 

I'd say that I am on category B for the reason I'm interested in Volt. I choose him because I looked up his abilities and thought that he was great for the kind of playstyle I wanted to go for.

 

I really am on the same boat with you on Shock, SIDESTR4M. I would very much want Shock to have a guarantee stun on viable enemies rather than a buff in damage. It won't be the best CC skill, but it will at least be a mild and reliable one for high level play.

 

I did a bit of testing with Shock and it's ability to stun awhile back and I I was a pretty disappointed with what I found out. The idea for the mechanic seemed good on paper, but it doesn't work well in higher levels.

 

As for Electric Shield, I seems to use it the same way as you do. I can agree that the shield could being a bit bigger, mostly to be more supportive to the teammates. I feel bad if I find out that I am hogging the space shield, preventing others from using it. :(

 

For Electric Shield being mobile and attached to the cross-hair, this kind of thing was mentioned before and I still think of it being potentially over-powered. Sure, there are the risks of being shot at from other directions the shield is not facing, but I feel it could easily be re-adjusted.

  -  I still have doubts of myself and that it might be alright if it goes mobile. I would really need hands-on-experience with it to be sure.

 

 

A quick little note though: I say NO to the disarming effect on Overload, as it would make Loki's Ultimate obsolete.

 

I also agree with Azumagon with Overload. I'd rather not tread on Loki's area, even if it is a cool ability effect. Otherwise, I'm all for your other suggestions.

 

 

And as you said, I also think of Volt as a strategic supporter. Maybe even a tactical fighter, but that may just be me.

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Category A: Those guys who read the description ingame and think "whoa, electricity themed warframe. Sounds awesome."

 

Category B: Those that read forums, wiki, youtube and chose Volt (or any other frame for that instance) because they think, they maybe like what he is.

 

So who is right, who is not, who is maybe... I say no one.

 

1.: Weak damage of Shock and Overload

 

2.: Synergy between skills

 

First off, I fall into category A.  I picked Volt back when he was a starter frame in January.  I didn't have any friends that played Warframe and didn't know the wiki was a thing at that point (and definitely wasn't yet active on the forums), so I just went with the cool-looking one.  I chose the alleged "potent alternative to gunplay."  He actually was at the time because Overload was so freaking OP it wiped entire maps, but that's another story lol.

 

Before I get into the other stuff, I'm just going to say that everyone agrees that Shock and Overload in their current forms do terrible damage at later play, though this should get fixed in Damage 2.0.  We'll have to wait on that one.

 

Anyways, to answer your question as to who is right?  I say both A and B.  I'm the first one to really put forward the dichotomy idea (which you can read https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/77224-breaking-the-dichotomy-of-volt/'>here) which was based around the synergy argument.  I don't respond to most of the Volt threads (a lot of them are just more of the same, so I don't bother most of the time unless the title suggests a new take on things), but I wanted to weigh in on this thread simply because I'm the one that started the view that Volt should be broken apart and you mention that with some seeming disdain.

 

The Synergy Argument (which the aforementioned thread relies upon) is this: Volt attempts to support multiple playstyles without actually being able to support any single one sufficiently due to contradiction between abilities.  You've identified the players that use those playstyles as A and B.  Assume for the moment that armor scaling didn't break Volt's 1 and 4.  If you are killing with your 1 or 4, you have no need for 2 or 3.  If you are using 2, you have no need for 3 as one is mobility while the other is static.  If you want to know why those are contradictions and not just "options," I please advise you to read the thread and read the part contained within the first spoiler.

 

I want to see Volt broken apart so that both A and B can be satisfied and have a frame to call their own; one that actually supports their playstyle sufficiently.  It just seems the logical choice to me.

Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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I read your thread and I would probably play Amp and would be satisfied as well.

 

There is only one tiny point. I can't speak for all others so I refer to my playstyle and IF Overcharge would actually do something against others than Corpus with some reliable efficiency, I would use it and mesh it with my playstyle, because at times I have to turtle behind my shields, clearing everything with guns instead of just using my ultimate.

IF Shock would do something more, I would use it too.

My point is: I'm currently working arround two skills because the others aren't that viable and guns are reliable.

 

You wrote that it is a problem with most other frames too... I may lean myself a bit out of the window but maybe it is no problem at all. If I play Excalibur, which I rarely do sadly because my group prefers Volt (xD), I often use all four skills, even super jump and I like superjump. I personally think Excalibur is a great frame after not liking him at first.

The way you think, every frame should be very straight forward in one direction. Aka, your frame tries to dictate a playstyle instead of leaving room for more variations shifting playstyles and so on.

 

Volt is in very variable. You can speedrun to a room with life support, deploy a shield and press "X". If Shock were better, you could run to that room and shock a bit instead or in addition. If Overload were viable, you could even use that instead, if you've got a bit more time. You get the idea and hopefully my point.

 

Take Nova for example. Yesterday I tried her out and guess what? I used Worm Hole. I realised, even Nova has utility at hand (not even a bad one). If you look arround, nearly every frame has utility with some priorities leading to either one or more specific directions, allowing variations. Nova for example is very focused. Excalibur on the other hand is not. He feels like he adds his abilities to just help you. Your need CC? Radial blind. You need to get to some Areas or make tricks with melee? Superjump. Beeing to reckless and surrounded by enemies? Radial Javelin. Sure you can invert your playstyle to use him to the fullest. That's why he is a solid frame for beginners and later on.

You have to help Nova getting her to nuke. Nova's style to solve problems is nuke her way through until the problems cease to exist or stop beeing a problem.

 

I'm not saying your Amp for example would be bad. I kinda like the concept and wouldn't mind playing him/her if he or she  existed. I'm just saying you are maybe too fixed at a specific theme a frame has to accomplish. The one perfect way of doing things.

 

"Don't be slave to your theme" is rule number one for creating something really outstanding because you can overcome boundaries that way.

In my opinion, themes should be guidlines, not dictate you the way of doing things. ;-)

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1 shock is unreliable, agree stun effect is more important than damage.

2 speed is great, does what it is meant to do.

3 shield wall, I have a couple of problems with this. Distortion is really annoying (snow globe is much easier to see through). The hight of the wall is too low, all too often enemies shoot you over it, could do with a doubling of height (maybe double with maxed stretch, but more height base also).

4 overload does not bypass armour, does not always stun enemies and leaves you hanging in the air for a loooooonnnnng time.

Armour 2.0 may fix the first problem. Fixing shock may fix the second. However I feel the animation should have you crouching rather than floating. Alternatively you could jump and deploy some sort of glowing orb that did the job for you, leaving you free to move, take cover, shoot, revive teammates etc.

I dont think Volt is irreparable, but three of his skills need some work.

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You know you can crouch behind a shield or deploy it a bit higher. Seeing through it is definetly something I forgot. There is a work arround. You can use dark colors for frame energy. The darker, the better you can see through. Of course, it looks bad on your frame having black as energy color.

I use a darker saturrated violet, so I can see through and it still glimms a bit.

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I read your thread and I would probably play Amp and would be satisfied as well.
 
I'm not saying your Amp for example would be bad. I kinda like the concept and wouldn't mind playing him/her if he or she  existed. I'm just saying you are maybe too fixed at a specific theme a frame has to accomplish. The one perfect way of doing things.
 
"Don't be slave to your theme" is rule number one for creating something really outstanding because you can overcome boundaries that way.
In my opinion, themes should be guidlines, not dictate you the way of doing things. ;-)

 

I'm not trying to detract from options or the viability of playstyles outside of the primary one having fun on a given frame.  I'd love playing Amp because (in my eyes at least) she has a good kit of useful abilities.  It's just that I'd personally prefer Volt more and I'd hope that people that would main Amp would be able to still enjoy Volt.

 

It's one thing to give a player several ways to approach the world.  It's another thing when you give them two things which accomplish the same task in too similar a way.  That redundancy just invites the player to use whichever is more effective and exclude the other.

 

I'm not perfectly set on the exact implementation I came up with for Volt or Amp (in fact, I've seen several ideas since then I'd love to use for each of them), but they do still demonstrate what I'm going for: breaking Volt apart at the seams such that he supports a given playstyle adequately.  Right now, he frankly doesn't.  If he supports even only one playstyle adequately, at least he'll do well in that role.  Now, people that play Volt just use him in whatever role they want but don't get a lot of positive feedback from his kit.  In the event you want to try a different one of his playstyles, you could, but you'd be stuck with the problem that you're now not only playing a playstyle that isn't your preferred one, but also you're not on a frame that adequately supports that playstyle.

 

Honestly, if Volt could be made to appropriately support several playstyles without ripping him apart, I'd be fine with that.  I just have no idea how to do that when he has such a wide userbase.  As such, ripping him apart seems the best option.

Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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If a new caster themed frame came out and turned out to be the caster-frame that those wanted out of Volt, do you think those same people would be alright with it?

 - The description for Volt would really need a change if that does happen, of course.

 

I personally would want to see some of the tweaking suggestions performed first before resorting to splitting Volt apart.

Edited by Zap15
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What should I care if they would be alright or not with it. It is everyone's freedom to use the frame he wants to or use another frame if they dislike their choice. And while there is a possibility of changing things as they are, it probably doesn't mean everyone will be satisfied in the end.

If that new caster really came out and is what everyone wanted in the first place, so why should those people ignore him and continue sticking to their choice which turns out to be a mistake?

 

Hm, I'm getting to a point where I'm not able to understand people anymore.

 

You see, there are lots of frames and no one is near perfection. Vauban's trap theme for example would consist of totally random skills following your argumentation. Ok, we're talking about Volt...

 

"What" is synergy related to a warframe? What is the premise? What playstyle and whose opinions are the straightedge for defining those things?

 

I would say, the meta game. If Volt performs really bad compared to other frames considering all balancing components there have to be changes. I'm ok with that. Of course I am.

 

A complete rework is only neccessary in my opinion it he is really bad skill-wise, which I think he is not. It's just unlucky advertised and thus misunderstood by people.

 

The designers had thoughts too, when they designed him. As some sort of project manager, I can tell you that if you are trying to explain something to people, everyone is painting his own picture in his head.

 

So if I tell you, Volt is electricity themed. Imagine you don't know him yet but you have countless ideas what he could be, what would make sense, what possibilities there are for playstyles.

 

How do you determine whose picture is right or wrong? If you mispelled a word or did a miscalculation, you did something wrong and it is how it is.

In the creative department, these parameters open up.

For example if Volt would summon circus clowns riding on elephants, this wouldn't fit at all. Even if he used electricity to infuse a device or contact another dimension to summon them, it just doesn't fit into this world, they've created. This world is the parameter.

 

So in short: If DE says Volt is all about electricity and he could use it to create shields (which do whatever physics to block bullets) or can infuse suits for speed and he can throw lightnings, I would believe them and I did. I can even grasp the thinking behind that, even if they'd say, they aren't satisfied with their creation later on. I don't know if they playtested him much or even give a crap about him beeing changed because new content is more important at the moment.

 

So I don't care about some sort of logical synergy because this logic is based upon everyone's playstyle/thinking without some scientific evidence.

 

So what is more important? The advertising line or the real product?

Edited by SIDESTRE4M
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Although I disprove of your rather biased group descriptions, I agree with them on account of the goals of each group. Volt might not be able to support different play styles properly, but he definitely flaunts them like a peacock its feathers. This makes everyone want something different out of Volt, regardless of which 'group' they belong to. This is also why we can never--and probably WILL never--truly come to a consensus about what we want for Volt. Most other Frame-activist groups usually at least have a majority ruling on what fix is needed/desired in their frame, and that's why it gets acted on so quickly. Not so with Volt, and we get rowdier and less agreeable by the day. This is why I support splitting Volt in two; because it might prove to take less time and satisfy more people than this constant back and forth we all like to have.

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What should I care if they would be alright or not with it. It is everyone's freedom to use the frame he wants to or use another frame if they dislike their choice. And while there is a possibility of changing things as they are, it probably doesn't mean everyone will be satisfied in the end.

If that new caster really came out and is what everyone wanted in the first place, so why should those people ignore him and continue sticking to their choice which turns out to be a mistake?

 

Hm, I'm getting to a point where I'm not able to understand people anymore.

 

You see, there are lots of frames and no one is near perfection. Vauban's trap theme for example would consist of totally random skills following your argumentation. Ok, we're talking about Volt...

 

"What" is synergy related to a warframe? What is the premise? What playstyle and whose opinions are the straightedge for defining those things?

 

I would say, the meta game. If Volt performs really bad compared to other frames considering all balancing components there have to be changes. I'm ok with that. Of course I am.

 

A complete rework is only neccessary in my opinion it he is really bad skill-wise, which I think he is not. It's just unlucky advertised and thus misunderstood by people.

 

The designers had thoughts too, when they designed him. As some sort of project manager, I can tell you that if you are trying to explain something to people, everyone is painting his own picture in his head.

 

So if I tell you, Volt is electricity themed. Imagine you don't know him yet but you have countless ideas what he could be, what would make sense, what possibilities there are for playstyles.

 

How do you determine whose picture is right or wrong? If you mispelled a word or did a miscalculation, you did something wrong and it is how it is.

In the creative department, these parameters open up.

For example if Volt would summon circus clowns riding on elephants, this wouldn't fit at all. Even if he used electricity to infuse a device or contact another dimension to summon them, it just doesn't fit into this world, they've created. This world is the parameter.

 

So in short: If DE says Volt is all about electricity and he could use it to create shields (which do whatever physics to block bullets) or can infuse suits for speed and he can throw lightnings, I would believe them and I did. I can even grasp the thinking behind that, even if they'd say, they aren't satisfied with their creation later on. I don't know if they playtested him much or even give a crap about him beeing changed because new content is more important at the moment.

 

So I don't care about some sort of logical synergy because this logic is based upon everyone's playstyle/thinking without some scientific evidence.

 

So what is more important? The advertising line or the real product?

 

Whoa. I'm sorry if you got a bit passionate because of my last post, but I think you misunderstood me.

I was merely asking if a new caster frame were to come out, and turns out to be the "alternative to gunplay" the Zues-casters wanted, whould the Zues-caster group satisfied with the new caster frame, and be alright with Volt being the strategic supporter like you mentioned? This would be assuming that DE is aware of Volt's current state and were to change his description, while giving the "alternative to gunplay" description to the new caster when it comes out.

   - This was more of a question to the Zues-caster.

   - I hope this is a bit more clear.

I understand that everyone has their freedom of choice to use the frame that that like. I also agree that this change, such as adding a new frame, will possibly not satisfy everyone.

If anything, I was hoping to reach a solution for those who wanted an "alternative to gunplay" without the major overhaul of his abilities.

As I also agree, Volt's abilities are not really bad and that a complete rework is not necessary. Also agree that he was mis-advertised with his description and thus misunderstood.

With Volt being electricity theme, I also don't mind their ideas behind Electric Shield and Speed. You believe in DE's design thoughts on his abilities and so do I.

As for your question, I believe it is the product being more important. Though the advertising does help identify what the product is.

I believe that Volt's abilities are good and could be improved with some of the tweakings that you suggested.

 

Pretty much:  I'm agreeing with you SIDESTRE4M. It's just that I feel like the Zues-caster group may be satisfied if they were to get a true "high damage" "alternative to gunplay" caster frame from a new frame, rather than expect such from Volt. Though I can't blame them for wanting it from Volt, since he is exactly advertised as such at the moment.

 

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Although I disprove of your rather biased group descriptions, I agree with them on account of the goals of each group. Volt might not be able to support different play styles properly, but he definitely flaunts them like a peacock its feathers. This makes everyone want something different out of Volt, regardless of which 'group' they belong to. This is also why we can never--and probably WILL never--truly come to a consensus about what we want for Volt. Most other Frame-activist groups usually at least have a majority ruling on what fix is needed/desired in their frame, and that's why it gets acted on so quickly. Not so with Volt, and we get rowdier and less agreeable by the day. This is why I support splitting Volt in two; because it might prove to take less time and satisfy more people than this constant back and forth we all like to have.

I have a tendency to write a bit harsh sometimes. I'm sorry for that.

Well I never had an agreement as a goal in mind to begin with when creating this thread. I created this thread it because I was tired of everyone picking on Volt and showing where could be changed something with him to remain the original Volt as much as possible.

I had the feeling that it got worse and the suggestions got wilder each day. Everyone was ranting about how bad he is and it would be sooo awesome it he'd be like this or that, creating something totally new.

He is Volt, not Thunder or Lightning. DE could come with something like that anytime, so why change Volt into that and leave those out who actually like him?

People didn't get it and I had the feeling everyone tried to come with something for the sake of coming up with something whitn no deeper thoughts behind that. This could be cool and that would be cool. I imagined how I would feel as Volt reading the forums.^^

So please no hard feelings. This discussion got to a point, where the fractions are so hardened, that there will never be a consens.

Edit: @Zap: Oh maybe I got confused and thought you were the same person as the one I quoted. I'm sorry for that, all those same avatars are giving me a headache xD

Edited by SIDESTRE4M
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"What" is synergy related to a warframe? What is the premise? What playstyle and whose opinions are the straightedge for defining those things?

 

I would say, the meta game.

Consider for a moment the number of viable skills on a frame.  Volt has four (assuming after Damage 2.0), but at the same time, he has two.  Because despite having four good abilities, you aren't going to use them all.  His abilities, while they all fit under the umbrella of "electricity," don't fit under an umbrella of playstyle.  Most other frames have a much more defined one or are cases where they support two but there is a sliding scale between them (a tanky support rhino or a damage rhino for instance).

 

Volt is effectively boolean.  In practice, the majority of users are going to be on one end or the other with very few in the middle.  This disparage between his playstyles, this playstyle gap, is the evidence for his lack of synergy.  Were his abilities better at interacting with one another instead of being a case of players being Zeus-casters XOR realists (as you put it), he would have some synergy.

 

People aren't playing him for the same reasons.  In fact, those reasons are wildly different.  The middle-ground is no-man's land though because you end up with ineffectual mutt of a playstyle that just doesn't really satisfy.  Because I see now way to bridge the gap and have never heard anyone else come up with a decent solution, I began the movement to rip him apart by playstyle.  

 

I still want Volt to allow both raw damage and damage-support playstyles while letting Amp inherit his steroid-based styles.  This gives Volt and Amp smaller pools that players will glom onto them from which makes them more pleasant to use.  They still have flexibility, but they aren't as wishy-washy as Volt is today.

 

 

It's just that I feel like the Zues-caster group may be satisfied if they were to get a true "high damage" "alternative to gunplay" caster frame from a new frame, rather than expect such from Volt. Though I can't blame them for wanting it from Volt, since he is exactly advertised as such at the moment.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I'd at least be partially satisfied.  I'd rather it be Volt that became the caster and Amp be the steroid frame simply because I've been here since January and that's how he's been advertised the whole time I've been playing.  I chose him as my starter frame because of that phrase.  I've invested forma and a potato into him hoping he would some day finally fulfill that prophecy.  Now, I know there are people across the aisle who have done the same thing because they like him as he is.  I don't want to alienate them either.

 

Honestly, as far as implementing a change of Volt into Volt and Amp (whichever became which playstyle is irrelevant), I feel like the devs should just give some sort of "credit" to to Volt owners that would contain the information as to what had been polarized how.  Then, all Volts would be wiped down, even their ranking.  You could then apply the credit either to Volt or to Amp, whichever you prefer.  The frame the credit is used on would have its rank bumped to where Volt had previously been.  Idk, it's the only way I can think of that doesn't make some group furious or make DE wade through a ton of support tickets as people ask for manual conversions.

 

 

So please no hard feelings. This discussion got to a point, where the fractions are so hardened, that there will never be a consens.

 

If he doesn't adequately support any given playstyle and it's far too contentious to declare a "victor" and too difficult to find a compromise, wouldn't it be better for everyone to just break him apart and do some sort of aforementioned credit system?

Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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Well, like I said. These evidences are based on personal feelings.

I would use all four skills if 1 and 4 would be more viable. That may be due to the fact that maybe I'm able to shift a bit, but on the other hand it may be more true, that I see 3 and 4 as the core and 1 and 4 as nice additions, which could as well be replaced.

So I agree, that may be an evidence, but the same is true for nearly all frames, even Rhino and Nova.

How many Rhinos did you come across that used charge or roar as often as stomp or iron skin (or even regularily)?

What about Nova with worm hole and those flying particles? Heck I never noticed a Nova doing more that Molecular Prime.^^

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Well, like I said. These evidences are based on personal feelings.

I would use all four skills if 1 and 4 would be more viable. That may be due to the fact that maybe I'm able to shift a bit, but on the other hand it may be more true, that I see 3 and 4 as the core and 1 and 4 as nice additions, which could as well be replaced.

So I agree, that may be an evidence, but the same is true for nearly all frames, even Rhino and Nova.

How many Rhinos did you come across that used charge or roar as often as stomp or iron skin (or even regularily)?

What about Nova with worm hole and those flying particles? Heck I never noticed a Nova doing more that Molecular Prime.^^

I'm not everyone, but provided there's someone with Energy Siphon on my team, I'll spam Charge and I'll use Roar in upper levels of the Void.  When I'm playing Nova, I usually have 1 on if there are enemies nearby (especially when I'll be zooming a lot for whatever reason) and use 3 all the time to get around.

Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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I see you got the idea. So you are not like every Rhino or Nova and neither am I regarding Volt.

Honestly, this synergy everyone is talking about, I could argue about every frame lacking synergy if I wanted to and I think I will find reasons too.

Of course the other frames don't all have perfect synergy either (but that's for another thread). But they are nowhere as bad in dissynergy as Volt is:

 

Shield and Speed just don't work well together. One is mobile, the other is immobile.

Shield and Overload don't work together. Shield is placed very low, while Overload lifts you up higher than usual, making the Shield no longer protect you.

Overload and Speed don't work together at all either. Overload makes you pinned down in place, while Speed is meant to make you go faster.

Shock at least has neutral synergy with Shield and Speed. Shock can't be cast during Overload, but hey, most ultimates are poorly designed that way so i guess that doesn't really count as much.

 

On another note regarding useage of Rhino - I think Roar is my most used skill on him. Since i mostly play solo, Roar is probably the best/easiest way to level up your weapons in solomode (much better ammo economy with max Focus + max Roar).

 

You say that even Rhino has potential dissynergy. Well, if so, it's hard to find. Rhino has at WORST just "neutral" synergy. Nova I can't comment much on as i don't have that 'frame yet. But from the looks of it, she also seems to have, at worst, neutral synergy.

 

But either way, compare Volt with his dissynergies to, say, Loki. That Warframe just has "synergy-between-skills" written all over it.

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