How to solve the Kuva Bramma ammo problem

[IamLoco]

Everything used to be better before they removed self-damage.

As I and others often said beforehand, the self-damage should have been reduced, not removed. 

Now we see mindless spamming of Brammas, Stahltas, Tombfinger primaries, Ogrissss...ses, and Acceltras being fired mid-bulletjump.

Has this improved gameplay? NO. Now we need to take care even less than before and just deliberatly accept a short stagger effect to blow up a rocket between our feet to kill tons of enemies at once. 

[Hayabusa97]

3 hours ago, Bandileros said:

how to solve a problem?
No way. The developer specifically made the weapon unplayable. So unplayable that it makes no sense even to play warframe.

Because the developer has taken the course. Consistently and methodically remove the most popular content from the game so that players pay more donations while pumping other weapons.

And everything will be repeated. Players will have a new popular weapon, SJW will appear, who will complain about the bright special effects. The developer will ruin this weapon in the same way as it ruined the brahma, and everyone will run in a circle, pumping new and new weapons.

And each time more and more really good weapons will be destroyed until the developer realizes that the game is in crisis. And then they add to the game more new warframes and weapons that will be imbalanced. Players will again arrange a zerg rush on the server, and everything will go in a new circle.

Not without reason, in a warframe, unlike all MMOs, all weapons are already available at half the maximum level, after several weeks of play. And to raise the level - you need to buy and pump weapons.

Because in a normal MMO, a player who reaches the end game no longer changes weapons. He does not need it, he got the best and always uses it. But this does not bring money, so the developers went along the path of creating a kind of financial pyramid of virtual values.

Something valuable is created, the victim wants it for himself, receives it, then it depreciates and all the money invested by the victim remains in the owner of the pyramid. And he offers a new value, and so on over and over again.

This is how a warframe works. Donation Collection Machine.

The hell did I just read

[(PSN)FK2P]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Random isn't the right word, the issue with Self-damage was that it was like shooting yourself with damage that could kill even Inaros in 1 or 2 hits.

Had they put a cap on how much of a percentage you could have taken in one hit, or made it only run off base damage, or LITERALLY ANYTHING OTHER THAN "oops I hit my toe, -1 revive" then it might have been fine, but what it was before just made it flat out less practical than Warframe nuking.

But because there were so many people calling it "fine" it got massive pushback and we wound up with the opposite extreme, instead of a middle ground, admittedly self-stagger is the lesser of two evils, if only because instant death because your Kavat walked in front of you was obscenely stupid.

I meant random in the sense that during the mission you would fire and something random would clip the shot and kill you, such as an invisible teammate, or a thin twig from a tree. But I agree, perhaps 20% of base health overall with no scaling would be good. Perhaps even 30%

[(PSN)FK2P]

2 hours ago, IamLoco said:

Everything used to be better before they removed self-damage.

As I and others often said beforehand, the self-damage should have been reduced, not removed. 

Now we see mindless spamming of Brammas, Stahltas, Tombfinger primaries, Ogrissss...ses, and Acceltras being fired mid-bulletjump.

Has this improved gameplay? NO. Now we need to take care even less than before and just deliberatly accept a short stagger effect to blow up a rocket between our feet to kill tons of enemies at once. 

Base 30% health each time. 

[Magus_Tahir]

2 hours ago, SignatureChewy said:

I think that the bramma deserved a nerf, but that the core issue wasn't really corrected. People used the bramma because without self-damage, it excelled in all situations. Post nerf, it still excels in all situations, but people are mad because there isn't enough ammo to use it in all situations. In my opinion, a better nerf would have been to require the bramma's explosive arrows to fly for a certain amount of time before arming. That way the bramma becomes a single-target weapon in close quarters, while retaining it's AOE ability at longer ranges. This would also differentiate it from the lenz, which has an AOE at all ranges.

They could have done that sure. But then everyone and there mother would still be using it. Since the patch ive been in groups that didn't have a single Bramma as a primary weapon choice. Which is a far cry from before where the Bramma was 4/4 primary wep choice in around 90% of the public groups I was in. 

Based on the small sample size of the groups I have been in I would consider the intended goal with the changes to be a success. 

That said I do like the arming distance idea better. Only because I enjoyed spamming the bow in my Liches faces while cackeling madly like a deranged psychopath. Hehe.

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, Hayabusa97 said:

The hell did I just read

An incoherent mess, by the looks of it.

[UC21]

I don't really know what to say about those changes. The true nerf is the number of arrows gains from ammo pickups. Only one arrow right now. I tested on survival Mot with my Loki, I had to wait one hour before having an issue with the ammo. I put "Ammo Drum" on my Bramma and went with my Carrier, so 11 arrows. The problem if you go with him is that his "Ammo Case" has a 2 secondes of ammo mutation delay witch means that it will consume all ammo pickups in range for 2 seconds before it give ammo.

 

It's true the Bramma kuva is a beautiful weapon, it's still my main weapon even after those changes. But sometime you need three shots to kill a 120 lv Corrupted heavy gunner because you had no proc on your shots and then you gain only one arrow after the kill or zero if it doesn't loot any ammo.

 

In my opinion, it's just fine right now, there are some warframe with a good synergy with ( Mesa, Octavia, Protea and others ). But I think gaining two arrows instead of one will be perfect.

 

I'm sorry if my English is bad, I'm a french player.

[CerealPlayer]

The Brama problem has been solved. Thank goodness!

[LoriSei]

You see why people complain the nerf of Bramma yet no one talks about the Lenz is being overshadowed by this weapon

Edited June 24, 2020 by LoriSei

[JackHargreav]

16 minutes ago, LoriSei said:

You see why people complain the nerf of Bramma yet no one talks about the Lenz is being overshadowed by this weapon

Overshadowed?

I barely see anyone using it. Even with built in ammo conversion it barely gets back any ammo. And the damage is nowhere near to the Bramma's.

[CerealPlayer]

5 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Overshadowed?

I barely see anyone using it. Even with built in ammo conversion it barely gets back any ammo. And the damage is nowhere near to the Bramma's.

The Lenz is meant to be a weaker weapon. Otherwise, there'd be no room for the upcoming Kuva Lenz...

[(PSN)Pragmatic_2015]

4 minutes ago, CerealPlayer said:

The Lenz is meant to be a weaker weapon. Otherwise, there'd be no room for the upcoming Kuva Lenz...

Is that an actual thing or just wishful thinking

[CerealPlayer]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Pragmatic_2015 said:

Is that an actual thing or just wishful thinking

Yes.

[UC21]

Just wait for Lenz prisma/vandal.

 

Just tried another survial Mot with Loki and the Bramma, but with "arrow mutation" instead of "ammo case". Even if you begin with 5 arrows instead of 11 it's much much better. No ammo issues even after an hour.

[Aoennor]

Really, tbh. Self damage used to make me laugh so much, and feels like a fair trade-off as it deals high damage with self damage. 

I do not know why they remove it in the first place. Self damage can come back but maybe just reduced for a bit. Because as a constant chroma player, need to wait for enemies to hit at first is kind of M to me. although is kind of my thing

In short, bring back reduced self-damaged

[(PSN)Pragmatic_2015]

5 minutes ago, UC21 said:

Just wait for Lenz prisma/vandal.

 

Just tried another survial Mot with Loki and the Bramma, but with "arrow mutation" instead of "ammo case". Even if you begin with 5 arrows instead of 11 it's much much better. No ammo issues even after an hour.

I need a Lenz Vandal, like yesterday.

I have Vigilante Supplies on my Bramma, use it with Inaros and make sweeping jump shots. Damn fun time.

[(PSN)songojames]

On 2020-06-21 at 1:26 PM, JackHargreav said:

Nope. It was easy to use, easy to obtain and pretty much did a better job than any other weapon.

I wouldn't say it's that easy since you have to beat Kuva Liches which are generally high level enemies.

I think the surrounding weapons should get a buff instead of nerfing the Bramma. It's too hard to get a decent weapon these days.

[LoriSei]

3 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Overshadowed?

I barely see anyone using it. Even with built in ammo conversion it barely gets back any ammo. And the damage is nowhere near to the Bramma's.

 

I mean Bramma still OP  and no talks about the Lenz being overshadowed by this weapon (Kuva Bramma)

[Aldain]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)songojames said:

I think the surrounding weapons should get a buff instead of nerfing the Bramma.

For the sake of discussion, how would you buff say, the Tiberon Prime to compete with the Bramma?

Because even on the best day I find it hard to believe that any of the 3 fire modes could compete with the pre-changed Bramma in any realistic fashion.

[(PSN)songojames]

21 hours ago, Aldain said:

For the sake of discussion, how would you buff say, the Tiberon Prime to compete with the Bramma?

Because even on the best day I find it hard to believe that any of the 3 fire modes could compete with the pre-changed Bramma in any realistic fashion.

Honesty, I'm not sure. Maybe a base damage buff? 

Plus I'm not saying all weapons should be equal but that it shouldn't take such a grind to get a decent weapon.

Every weapon should at least be good against lvl 30-50 enemies if they have max/high lvl damage and chance mods without needing any forma or potatoes. 

Also I think every Kuva and Prime weapons should only need max damage and chance mods as well as max Multishot without the need to forma (Only need potato) to be good against high level enemies. Only lesser weapons should take multiple forma and potato (And maybe a riven for the really low weapons) to be good.

Edited June 25, 2020 by (PS4)songojames

[Aldain]

3 hours ago, (PS4)songojames said:

Honesty, I'm not sure. Maybe a base damage buff?

Then we run into a different problem, then if we buff the damage of the Tiberon Prime, it starts to outperform most Semi-auto weapons, and likely several Sniper Rifles.

That's the issue with trying to buff weaker weapons up to higher power ones, it creates a cascade effect where the more you try to increase the power of some weapons, the more weapons you wind up needing to buff.

3 hours ago, (PS4)songojames said:

Plus I'm not saying all weapons should be equal but that it shouldn't take such a grind to get a decent weapon.

Every weapon should at least be good against lvl 30-50 enemies if they have max/high lvl damage and chance mods without needing any forma or potatoes. 

Also I think every Kuva and Prime weapons should only need max damage and chance mods as well as max Multishot without the need to forma (Only need potato) to be good against high level enemies. Only lesser weapons should take multiple forma and potato (And maybe a riven for the really low weapons) to be good.

While this might be with the best of intentions, the issue isn't the grind, it is the state of Warframe where "decent" is often also impractical. Also due to how enemy levels work, many weapons nowadays do work at the 30-50 scale, the problem being that even with forma and potatoes they can't scale up because of their baseline.

For example, the Veldt is technically decent, especially for a semi-auto rifle, the problem is that it will never be able to match any sort of power curve simply because it is a semi-auto rifle. When most missions are about killing as much as possible as fast as possible, a semi-auto rifle will never keep up with an AoE weapon, unless the AoE weapon is Stug-tier, and that's not even talking about Warframe abilities.

Rivens also seldom help weaker weapons, solely because they are percent based increases, which only benefit weapons that have stats in the first place.

That is why it was impossible to balance up to the pre-nerf Bramma's level, because the Bramma due to its base stats could do literally everything, it could apply status, crit like a runaway bus (and by extension apply slash procs through that one mod), deal with both crowds and heavy units, and because before the changes it could pick up plenty of ammo it could even maintain high DPS due to its low charge time, hek, even now the ammo issues are still heavily solved by making use of the Exilus slot and picking shots rather than flinging arrows everywhere.

It isn't possible to balance all weapons unless we have some idea of what "average" is supposed to be, because when things like the Bramma show up what is definable as average winds up falling to either mediocre or nigh-useless, especially in any team environment.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

Just play as Wukong and have his clone use it. Problem solved.

[3rdpig]

The proper thing to do, at least IMO, is to either bring back self damage, which they'll never do, or remove the Bramma from the game entirely, which again, they'll never do.

So the answer is to either give it such a tiny ammo capacity that it can't be spammed, or nerf it into the ground in some other fashion as they did the Catchmoon secondary.

Another thing they could do, but won't, is to make it a Solo Only weapon.

So almost no ammo or huge nerfs, take your pick.

[Yakhul]

On 2020-06-22 at 10:12 PM, Aoennor said:

so bramma, the nerf for now is ok in my own perspective.

unspammable and only for decisive moment like large mob

evethough some players overcome the ammo issues, but still ok for now.

it is not hurting my eyes so it is ok 

It is worth mentioning too, that unlike other weapons that you put any ammo mutation mod on, and convert large amounts of ammo into the respective ammo for the weapon, no matter how much ammo you pick, with the Bramma, every ammo pickup is just a single arrow. Now you have to actually pay attention to your ammo pool and where are the ammo pickups.

7 minutes ago, 3rdpig said:

The proper thing to do, at least IMO, is to either bring back self damage, which they'll never do, or remove the Bramma from the game entirely, which again, they'll never do.

As you said, DE wont do either, so you can keep dreaming.
Self damage was an actual problem that players asked DE to address for years. It was not funny, that a weapon that could blow you up to space in a single shot, caused tickles to the enemy. The Kuva Bramma became the first high risk, high reward self damage weapon, and self damage would had been ok from the start, if it was anything closer to the Bramma before the removal of self damage.

Removing the actual weapon entirely, will cause A LOT of problems. Just because you and a very small minority do not like the Kuva Bramma, doesn't mean that it has to get nerfed again or removed. People invested time and resources, even platinum, into this weapon already.

Take a pick? A weapon that has the highest AOE damage fall off of all explosive weapons, has been nerfed already, and has very low ammo capacity, which has to be compensated with mods. Why pick when DE already did both?

[3rdpig]

20 hours ago, Yakhul said:

As you said, DE wont do either, so you can keep dreaming.
Self damage was an actual problem that players asked DE to address for years. It was not funny, that a weapon that could blow you up to space in a single shot, caused tickles to the enemy. The Kuva Bramma became the first high risk, high reward self damage weapon, and self damage would had been ok from the start, if it was anything closer to the Bramma before the removal of self damage.

Removing the actual weapon entirely, will cause A LOT of problems. Just because you and a very small minority do not like the Kuva Bramma, doesn't mean that it has to get nerfed again or removed. People invested time and resources, even platinum, into this weapon already.

Take a pick? A weapon that has the highest AOE damage fall off of all explosive weapons, has been nerfed already, and has very low ammo capacity, which has to be compensated with mods. Why pick when DE already did both?

I was trying to prove a point, not dreaming.  And where did I say I didn't like the Bramma? While I have one, I don't use it much because I don't like using any of the AOE explosive weapons all that much. But I don't care who uses them or how often they're used. If they're being over used in a match to a point where I can't see enemies to kill them, I just abort the match. And how do you know it's "a very small minority"? Do you have access to DE's internal statistics? No? I thought not. Making things up and using it to support your argument, specially to someone who wasn't even arguing with you, is borderline moronic.

Maybe English isn't your primary language? Don't feel bad, there are days when I feel it's not mine either.