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Venyxos

PvP Reborn

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So while the established Warframe community clearly has no issue with the lack of PvP content/polish (myself included, although I miss it and wish it were there), I know for a fact it does keep others from becoming "an established player."

My thoughts are:

1 - Have Conclave exclusive "Warframes" (but call them something else and treat them as such in game, for sake of lore). I would recommend making them slower, more plodding, like a high gravity feeling. Give them abilities that are suited for PvP as that's all they'll be used for. Keep them simple and few in number so you can focus on cool game modes (traditional ones as well as some of the elements already in game, like Index, Arena, and Lunaro), which brings me to... 

2 - Make standard PvP modes people will recognize with a Tenno twist... Death Match, Search & Destroy, Capture the Flag, Capture Points, etc... You could also have modes which are more "game/sport" feeling for Operators only - like paint ball, the squirt gun Summer event, and things similar to Rocket League or whatever (why not toss K-Drives in?). Incorporate mission types begging to be made PvP - as mentioned before, like Index and Arena. 

 

3 - More specific suggestions...

a - Things like "Official" K-Drive racing (like as a Bounty type) as well as Railjacks and Archwings, which, lets face it... Would be NUTS to have a PvP mode for. Even 4 on 4. You could still force use of nerfed PvP frames/wings
b - I think every Free Roam zone should have 2 PvP modes - Battle Royale and Open War. Battle Royale modes (which I know they joked about in a DevStream) is self-explanatory. Open War would be more of a GTA/Red Dead/APB feel. Should be all smash and grabs (like stealing supply drops) and teams compete for the resources with high security alert levels; like under cover cops from different departments accidentally fighting each other... You don't know who's a bad guy or another Tenno, so make sure YOU get it.
c - Change existing Warframe PvP to more of a Grand-Champion, Duel oriented vibe.

It appears most of the ground work is there but I know none of this would be a simple task and could distract from the core gameplay. That said, PvP is a glaring omission in Warframe's roster of gameplay features and could be why they seem to hover just off the radar as an industry leader (like, most my friends play Warframe rip-offs instead... It's sad, lol)

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4 minutes ago, Venyxos said:

could be why they seem to hover just off the radar as an industry leader

This gets beaten to death but it has to be said to clear the air: Warframe is a PvE game, that's its core audience, and so Warframe's reasons for not being an industry leader lie primarily in PvE issues. Stephen King isn't a successful author because he writes romance novels on the side (which AFAIK he doesn't), he's a successful author because his novels cater to a particular audience and do so with a good degree of quality. Indeed, it'd be remiss to suggest he'd be a better author if he branched out. Warframe, and indeed many similar ventures, aren't different: it all comes down to finding the target audience, catering to them, and not buggering it up. PvP doesn't cater to Warframe's target audience.

To reiterate: Warframe wouldn't be better with PvP. It could be done in a way that doesn't make it worse, such as variant modes that pretty much handle themselves, but time spent on PvP isn't going to magically bolster the game to some god-tier status, unless the PvP crowd is the audience DE wants to attract. Given the current direction of the game, that's unlikely.

With that out of the way:

13 minutes ago, Venyxos said:

Have Conclave exclusive "Warframes" (but call them something else and treat them as such in game, for sake of lore). I would recommend making them slower, more plodding, like a high gravity feeling. Give them abilities that are suited for PvP as that's all they'll be used for. Keep them simple and few in number so you can focus on cool game modes (traditional ones as well as some of the elements already in game, like Index, Arena, and Lunaro)

I'm certainly not against Conclave equipment being divorced from PvE equipment, but I do think it shouldn't be just Warframes, and it should specifically be isolated to Conclave. I.e., if you have a Conclave Warframe, it doesn't require any PvE resources whatsoever, including forma and catalysts. That should encompass weapons as well. It should be as straightforward as "if you use it for Conclave, you get it from Conclave".

(Alternatively, Conclave abilities could be repurposed to mods so that players can keep their fashion-frame.)

16 minutes ago, Venyxos said:

Make standard PvP modes people will recognize with a Tenno twist... Death Match, Search & Destroy, Capture the Flag, Capture Points, etc... You could also have modes which are more "game/sport" feeling for Operators only - like paint ball, the squirt gun Summer event, and things similar to Rocket League or whatever (why not toss K-Drives in?). Incorporate mission types begging to be made PvP - as mentioned before, like Index and Arena. 

The major problem is that we have game modes right now that are entirely abandoned. One of which is a literal CTF. Variants, like the Dog Days event or the Opticor-only event, are likely just fine and often called for (due, in part I think, to the ability to just pick up and play: no loadout fuss, no modding, just go). But full-fledged modes like King of the Hill seem likely to go the way of Capture the Cephalon and Lunaro: they might seem enticing, but for most players...they're not.

21 minutes ago, Venyxos said:

Things like "Official" K-Drive racing (like as a Bounty type) as well as Railjacks and Archwings, which, lets face it... Would be NUTS to have a PvP mode for. Even 4 on 4. You could still force use of nerfed PvP frames/wings

K-Drive races would likely be underused, but not wholly unwelcome I think, and decently easy to implement.

Rebalancing for Railjack / Archwing seems like a headache waiting to happen for something generally not-well-desired (the Venn diagram of PvP-loving players and Railjack-loving players doesn't have the biggest overlap in the world, especially if Archwing's reception is anything to go by...).

24 minutes ago, Venyxos said:

I think every Free Roam zone should have 2 PvP modes - Battle Royale and Open War. Battle Royale modes (which I know they joked about in a DevStream) is self-explanatory. Open War would be more of a GTA/Red Dead/APB feel. Should be all smash and grabs (like stealing supply drops) and teams compete for the resources with high security alert levels; like under cover cops from different departments accidentally fighting each other... You don't know who's a bad guy or another Tenno, so make sure YOU get it.

BR modes have been proposed a lot. They've been shot down pretty much every single time for various reasons, such as a lack of playerbase to facilitate a BR mode even on a good day. (It's frequent enough to go several minutes not even seeing other players in regular Conclave maps. Expand that to the size of Fortuna.) Believe me when I say that the vast majority of players who like PvP do not want a BR mode.

"Departments accidentally fighting each other" sounds like a mess, but I'm also not 100% sure what you're talking about.

30 minutes ago, Venyxos said:

Change existing Warframe PvP to more of a Grand-Champion, Duel oriented vibe.

More details definitely required.

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1 - slower and clunky? no thanks, we already have that it's called you operator... (unless you dash), the movement is a core part of what's making warframe good

2 - yeah more gamemodes every pvp game has... how original.... and more gamemodes just split up the 4 guys playing pvp even more

3 - a) k-drive races could be fun, the rest not as much since railjacks are just clunky and archwings are just blink spam.

3 - b) yeah more battle royal, as if we dont have enough games with that... and the second part sounds like yet another content island, since you get plenty of normal resources in "normal" missions you would need new exclusive stuff

3 - c) go in you simulacrum and turn on friendly fire and you can do your 1vs1, which will result in a boring meta where everyone plays the same

If i would guess, i would say most players are here for the pve content and have no interest in pvp and if, they play a game which has the focus on pvp.
Warframe needs no focus on pvp, there are much more important things that they need to fix at their core gameplay, which is pve.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-06-21 at 7:03 PM, Dark_Lugia said:

1 - slower and clunky? no thanks, we already have that it's called you operator... (unless you dash), the movement is a core part of what's making warframe good

2 - yeah more gamemodes every pvp game has... how original.... and more gamemodes just split up the 4 guys playing pvp even more

3 - a) k-drive races could be fun, the rest not as much since railjacks are just clunky and archwings are just blink spam.

3 - b) yeah more battle royal, as if we dont have enough games with that... and the second part sounds like yet another content island, since you get plenty of normal resources in "normal" missions you would need new exclusive stuff

3 - c) go in you simulacrum and turn on friendly fire and you can do your 1vs1, which will result in a boring meta where everyone plays the same

If i would guess, i would say most players are here for the pve content and have no interest in pvp and if, they play a game which has the focus on pvp.
Warframe needs no focus on pvp, there are much more important things that they need to fix at their core gameplay, which is pve.

1 - yep, but the movement is beyond what most people can actually track which is the number one reason I think people don't experiment with PvP. It's total madness, in a bad way, rn. So slow the frames down specifically for PvP... I'm not saying make it feel like Destiny, Halo, or even Titanfall, like it seems you're picturing.

2 - moot points/circular logic. Warframe itself proves you can take something that's been done before and make it feel completely unique (as a shooter, as a dungeon crawler, as an rpg...). Common game modes are common because what can you ACTUALLY do differently around modes featuring players fighting players without reinventing the game? This discussion is how to make PvP fun and entice people to play/try something new/break the routine, so pointing out there's "4 guys playing" is moot - a waste of time mentioning. Also, humans tend to be more of a challenge than AI, unless your stats just aren't there (you're literally not strong enough to fight the AI).

3a - I find rail jack easy, archwings too, but I've played a lot of dog-fighting games. I'd love to see someone blink-spam a win in anything... Nother moot point.

3b - The content island already exists (conclave) but no one visits it (as you mentioned)

3c - So much for grand master feel, eh?

Everyone keeps saying they're here for the PvE not the PvP, not realizing there's no PvP to claim you're not here for. Which actually has nothing to do with enjoying the PvE content, which is why you play. Follow me?

Edited by Venyxos
typos... there's probably more

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Great points, which I'm mostly in agreement with (so what I'm saying here isn't in disagreement, but rather addressing what you say and elaborating on my original statements)

On 2020-06-21 at 6:58 PM, Tyreaus said:

This gets beaten to death but it has to be said to clear the air: Warframe is a PvE game...

Right, but to have Conclave in the game and leave it as is when PvP is a standard is no good. To use your analogy: Stephen King's books do contain romance, and the fact that it's well done is why they're such great horrors, first and foremost. There's no attachment. In Warframe, high-score charts and Fashion Frame is neat, but there's no head to head... It's all about time logged in the game. Big deal. RPGs, historically PvE games, basically HAVE to have PvP if they're going to be successful. In other words, if you cater to niches, you'll always be a niche, and work with niche budgets and produce niche results. Sound like Warframe/DE a bit? 

Not to mention, it's almost as if DE and the established audience (which is a niche crowd due to DE's early bad experience with a big publisher or whatever) want to make a statement on PvP... Like they echo this "that aint us" which is fine, I guess, but the justifications are moot. Plain and simple.
 

On 2020-06-21 at 6:58 PM, Tyreaus said:

The major problem is that we have game modes right now that are entirely abandoned.

Exactly. I do believe the main issue though is PvE Warframes and Equipment are way to OP for any kind of PvP - Extremely hard to hit and not balanced against each other. I'm saying stock everything for PvP. If it's in PvP, it's gotta be the same load-outs available to everyone, with perhaps some "In-PvP" progression... But it should be limited leaving most participation for fun and of course faction standing for the shop (think of the aesthetics you could add to Conclave if PvP had been implemented corrected vs tossed in and folks shrugging, "welp, I guess it's not us." lol


THEN you could make an assessment on game modes. Good point on the load-up and play for things like the Dog-Days event - it's that kind of mindlessness (a little customization IS desirable for full PvP) that makes PvP so appealing. Raw competition.
 

On 2020-06-21 at 6:58 PM, Tyreaus said:

K-Drive races would likely be underused, but not wholly unwelcome I think, and decently easy to implement.

Rebalancing for Railjack / Archwing seems like a headache waiting to happen for something generally not-well-desired (the Venn diagram of PvP-loving players and Railjack-loving players doesn't have the biggest overlap in the world, especially if Archwing's reception is anything to go by...).

General Issue 'jacks and 'wings. I can hear Cy briefing us on "War Games" already. Then just let people blast each other (I've noticed poor reception to arch-wing, which does need love, and railjacks and I feel the same way about that as I do the communities reception to PvP - It's not their God-mode climb and vastly different to what they've been used to/have experienced before and give up before they have skills to even polish.

 

On 2020-06-21 at 6:58 PM, Tyreaus said:

BR modes have been proposed a lot... ...players who like PvP do not want a BR mode.

Same as before - preconceived notions (I'm not a BR fan myself, I just know a lot of people prefer it to traditional match play). I did a poor job describing the "Open War" concept... Simply a blend of Invasion mission types and an experience similar to Battlefront/Battlefield games. Small squads deploy and have to capture points or whatever utilizing the chaos of the AI factions battling as cover. For sake of story, say the Squads cannot communicate with one another and must assume everyone is an enemy, so Tenno would be fighting the open world as much as each other. Remember - Non-PvE warframes... So it doesn't need to be obvious who's who simply by looking at them. What if PvP "warframes" were Corpus or Grineer designed "suits"? Lower performance than a Tenno's warframe but still ferocious? Something like that.

In other words, "Open War" would be like PvP Bounties almost. Great opportunity for syndicate involvement to boot.

On 2020-06-21 at 6:58 PM, Tyreaus said:

More details definitely required.

...Pertaining to "Grand-Champions"... We could simply take the existing Conclave set-up and shove it into the Dueling Room and/or something akin to the Inspiration Room in the Dojo's. Like trim it down further and add prestige to it. So instead of dropping into Conclave and waiting however long for someone to join, it would be more of a 1v1 emphasis. As you've said, the other game mods are already dead. This would allow for PvE Warframes and load-outs to go toe-to-toe with each other if they made PvP Warframes. You could have minor embellishments to Dueling Rooms (not in the Dojo mind you but for this hypothetical change) to cater to some of the specialties you see among Warframes, like Mirage and light sources for example.

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As for PvP equipment... I picture this as being Non-Tenno equipment. Perhaps repurposed or advanced things from the enemy factions, specifically Grineer and/or Corpus.

So while all your controls and basic abilities (bullet-jumping and wall-clinging for example) remain in tact, the overall feel (and certainly, the look!) shouldn't be quite the same.

This allows aaall kinds of flexibility within the storyline as well as developing PvP mechanics as it stands beside the actual arsenal we have available.

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52 minutes ago, Venyxos said:

Everyone keeps saying they're here for the PvE not the PvP, not realizing there's no PvP to claim you're not here for. Which actually has nothing to do with enjoying the PvE content, which is why you play. Follow me?

 Even if you managed to lower the Conclave's skill floor enough to make it accessible for everyone without somehow making warframes (or whatever alternative you want to create for them) feel painfully slow, and that's a huge if, I still don't think most people would care about or like PvP at all.

It's true that a lot of other PvE based games have successful PvP modes, but the gameplay of those modes is generally at least somewhat similar to the core gameplay already found in the main game. Warframe is primarily a horde shooter, the core gameplay consists of playing as what is basically a demigod and slaughtering hundreds of braindead enemies, often at the press of a single button. Do you seriously think that people who enjoy this would enjoy any form of PvP at all? And that the people who would be interested in a PvP mode like this wouldn't be bored by Warframe's core gameplay before even giving PvP a shot?

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52 minutes ago, (PS4)fdsc77 said:

 Even if you managed to lower the Conclave's skill floor enough to make it accessible for everyone without somehow making warframes (or whatever alternative you want to create for them) feel painfully slow, and that's a huge if, I still don't think most people would care about or like PvP at all.

It's true that a lot of other PvE based games have successful PvP modes, but the gameplay of those modes is generally at least somewhat similar to the core gameplay already found in the main game. Warframe is primarily a horde shooter, the core gameplay consists of playing as what is basically a demigod and slaughtering hundreds of braindead enemies, often at the press of a single button. Do you seriously think that people who enjoy this would enjoy any form of PvP at all? And that the people who would be interested in a PvP mode like this wouldn't be bored by Warframe's core gameplay before even giving PvP a shot?

Hi, welcome to the forums.

Strange that this would be the first thing you'd care and post about, but I don't judge.

It's true that PvE has removed itself more and more from Conclave gameplay (the shooter part, not Lunaro) over the past few years. Conclave itself is much closer to a new player's PvE experience, though. You know, before one has access to the exponential power curve in form of all the mods and nukes.

Besides, some people enjoy both PvE and PvP in a game.

 

If you're new, I'd recommend joining the the community Discord at https://discord.me/conclave (direct invite link) to get a foothold, because it can be extremely hard to go against people with months to years of experience.

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2 hours ago, Venyxos said:

-Snip-

To go in some semblance of order:

Novel analogy: The point was about what makes a product successfully work for its target audience. King may have romantic elements in his novels, but if he took up writing romance (and/or inverting the horror / romance prominence), they very likely wouldn't reach the same audience, because that audience is looking for the horror stories.

Indeed, if we wanted to roll with that line of thinking further, we would realize that Warframe's PvP content is the romance of King's novels: secondary to the main draw, with a fraction of the effort, and built to support the main draw. Thus, rebuilding efforts should focus on integration and streamlining: smaller, easier-to-enter game-modes (like event modes), readily accessible from the starchart (as with other mission nodes). Complicated, effort-intensive ideas like "open world warfare between factions" don't really fit that role.

PvE requires PvP: Warframe is, by many measures, successful with negligible PvP. Perhaps Warframe is just special in its ability to do well without a major PvP base, or perhaps it skirts the definition of RPG just enough to not require PvP to anywhere near the same amount. Regardless of the reasons, it seems to be a demonstrated exception to the rule.

That and, let's be blunt: if the issue is about Warframe not being an industry leader, how would following the industry turn them into a leader? That seems a little inverted, doesn't it?

Niches: Normally I would just ask what you define as "catering to a niche", but every sensible definition I can come up with has a successful analogue. BR games, Kirby...a lot of games almost, by definition, cater to niches in their design. At least some of them are successful. So either we need to clear up what "catering to a niche" genuinely means, or we rule out that niches aren't necessarily a bad thing and the flaw lies somewhere else (e.g. some error in the actual catering part, not in the target audience).

Customization being desirable: Something small to note is that, with event variants, the customization is in the mode choice as well. So even when there are pre-set loadouts, there is a sort of customization, just further up the causal chain.

Railjacks and Archwings: Be careful about construing your interest with general interest. It may seem fun, but we already have demonstrably poor reception for Archwing, Railjack, and PvP. ANDing those together means you'll have your Railjack PvP with maybe one or two other player(s). That probably isn't the exciting team-based space warfare ala Sea of Thieves you were imagining.

Open War: Besides what I mentioned about needing a substantial playerbase to make that terribly effective, I can only weep for the servers that would have to undertake the amount of processing for that to work...

Grand Champions: I am only left more confused following the explanation...you mean having PvP, with PvP equipment, but 1 on 1? I guess that wouldn't be too difficult to do but, again, not exactly a grand audience for it. And if we're talking about having separate PvP equipment, I can smell some technical hurdles in implementation.

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Il y a 15 heures, Venyxos a dit :

1 - yep, but the movement is beyond what most people can actually track which is the number one reason I think people don't experiment with PvP. It's total madness, in a bad way, rn. So slow the frames down specifically for PvP... I'm not saying make it feel like Destiny, Halo, or even Titanfall, like it seems you're picturing.

Possibly a better way to go about this:

One of the reason if feels total madness is because of the fact that weapons have rather long TTK and STK, especially with shield gating. On top of that, the map design makes it worse, as the convolute-ness of it gives a very small window of opportunity to actually hit players. Mind you, we are talking about players rushing the map at mach 2. Its why there is an Telos Boltace, High fire rate, ignis meta there.

If players like the high movement, gimping it may not be well received, but what might be is bigger map sizes to accomodate the high movement speed, as well as the weapon's themselves being buffed up so that hitting players does not resort to using AoE weapons only.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-06-22 at 12:58 AM, Tyreaus said:

This gets beaten to death but it has to be said to clear the air: Warframe is a PvE game, that's its core audience, and so Warframe's reasons for not being an industry leader lie primarily in PvE issues. Stephen King isn't a successful author because he writes romance novels on the side (which AFAIK he doesn't), he's a successful author because his novels cater to a particular audience and do so with a good degree of quality. Indeed, it'd be remiss to suggest he'd be a better author if he branched out. Warframe, and indeed many similar ventures, aren't different: it all comes down to finding the target audience, catering to them, and not buggering it up. PvP doesn't cater to Warframe's target audience.

To reiterate: Warframe wouldn't be better with PvP. It could be done in a way that doesn't make it worse, such as variant modes that pretty much handle themselves, but time spent on PvP isn't going to magically bolster the game to some god-tier status, unless the PvP crowd is the audience DE wants to attract. Given the current direction of the game, that's unlikely.

 

Warframe is a PVE game and the audience loves its PVE but that doesn't mean that it couldn't and shouldn't try to get a better PvP ( Stephen King is not a successful author because he writes romance novels in his spare time but who tells you he wouldn't be good at writing them or that he wouldn't get more appreciated ? He's still an excellent writer after all ; sure , it would take him time to get known in that new kind of enviroment but if he's willing to give it a try... ~ ) .
I find it to be preposterous to say that PvP wouldn't cater to Warframe's audience given the fact that the community is formed by extremely various people with very different tastes and that many of them did feel like giving conclave a try in the past , only to get discouraged by its status . 
Besides...catering to both the PVE audience and to the PvP audience ( provided they both get the necessary attention ) would in the end prove more beneficial for the game than just paying attention to one of the two parts of the community ( even though it's the largest and everyone's aware of that ) . 

Warframe would be better with a good PvP system , this game's an ever growing and ever changing one , it would certainly draw in more people who are interested even in that kind of content . Then again , PvP is not that one single thing that would change the state of the game , at least as things currently are . 

 

 

On 2020-06-22 at 12:58 AM, Tyreaus said:

 

The major problem is that we have game modes right now that are entirely abandoned. One of which is a literal CTF. Variants, like the Dog Days event or the Opticor-only event, are likely just fine and often called for (due, in part I think, to the ability to just pick up and play: no loadout fuss, no modding, just go). But full-fledged modes like King of the Hill seem likely to go the way of Capture the Cephalon and Lunaro: they might seem enticing, but for most players...they're not.

K-Drive races would likely be underused, but not wholly unwelcome I think, and decently easy to implement.

Rebalancing for Railjack / Archwing seems like a headache waiting to happen for something generally not-well-desired (the Venn diagram of PvP-loving players and Railjack-loving players doesn't have the biggest overlap in the world, especially if Archwing's reception is anything to go by...).

BR modes have been proposed a lot. They've been shot down pretty much every single time for various reasons, such as a lack of playerbase to facilitate a BR mode even on a good day. (It's frequent enough to go several minutes not even seeing other players in regular Conclave maps. Expand that to the size of Fortuna.) Believe me when I say that the vast majority of players who like PvP do not want a BR mode.

"Departments accidentally fighting each other" sounds like a mess, but I'm also not 100% sure what you're talking about.

More details definitely required.

The only reason as to why I believe they do not look enticing to the players is due to the current status of Conclave ( dead and abandoned game mode which does not really provide such amazing rewards , in which getting mods can prove annoying , in which bullet jumping is abused to the moon and beyond up to the point in which a conclave match basically feels like watching a pack of crickets shooting with guns , where there's so many weapons and frames available to pick that balance isn't really a thing , ecc ) ; if Conclave were to be reworked completely then who knows what might happen ? Might get a little bit more lively in there .

K-Drives need a whole rework too . I don't want archwings to be nerfed in favor of K-Drives cause it'd be ridiculous for them to be slower than space skateboards but at the same time K-Drives need a boost in their utility that actually encourages the people to use them.
As for the races...it wouldn't be a bad idea as long as the rewards are actually going to be worth it ( that's honestly one of the biggest drives of the community as a whole , you may not like mining and fishing and grinding for Fortuna / Cetus standing but you want those Kitguns and Zaws so you are gonna do it eventually . Give races or conclave something just as good albeit different and the people will try them out ) .

Archwings and railjacks need rebalancing and a whole rework ( again... ) ; their concept isn't bad at all but it's poorly executed and sometimes I see DE actually taking steps backwards when it comes to archwings rather than developing them more . 



As to how I'd rework conclave itself I'd make it be more similar to Halo 2's multiplayer . Frames are only there for aesthetics , they are all gonna have the same stats and abilities are gonna be disabled ( or as an alternative just a few "conclave only" frames would be available with their relative abilities to make balancing be easier ) , only a handful of weapons would be available for use ( I'd say 20 as it's an easy enough number to provide variety while at the same time allowing for an easier time when it comes to balancing stuff . More weapons could then be introduced by rotating what can be used every "x" months ) , modding should not be a thing in conclave as it'd make balancing become much harder or at least it should require a lot  of attention from the developers .
I am not sure whether everyone should be starting with the same weapon and find the others around the map or if loadouts could just be left as they are .
Different game modes ( CTF , king of the hill , slayer / team slayer , headhunter , infection , ecc ) would be a thing , bullet jumping would either need to be removed from the conclave or its effectiveness get reduced / be put on a cooldown . Rewards should once again be worth it .

Edited by Elyann
typos

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Elyann said:

Warframe is a PVE game and the audience loves its PVE but that doesn't mean that it couldn't and shouldn't try to get a better PvP ( Stephen King is not a successful author because he writes romance novels in his spare time but who tells you he wouldn't be good at writing them or that he wouldn't get more appreciated ? He's still an excellent writer after all ; sure , it would take him time to get known in that new kind of enviroment but if he's willing to give it a try... ~ ) .
I find it to be preposterous to say that PvP wouldn't cater to Warframe's audience given the fact that the community is formed by extremely various people with very different tastes and that many of them did feel like giving conclave a try in the past , only to get discouraged by its status . 
Besides...catering to both the PVE audience and to the PvP audience ( provided they both get the necessary attention ) would in the end prove more beneficial for the game than just paying attention to one of the two parts of the community ( even though it's the largest and everyone's aware of that ) . 

Warframe would be better with a good PvP system , this game's an ever growing and ever changing one , it would certainly draw in more people who are interested even in that kind of content . Then again , PvP is not that one single thing that would change the state of the game , at least as things currently are . 

First, and allow me to abuse the living crud out of my analogy, I should specify that this was in response to the notion that "the lack of PvP is why Warframe isn't an industry leader". Stephen King may be a good romance writer, but his measure of success comes from his horror stories. He wouldn't need to write romance to be a good author; he would need to write something well that fits a target audience to be a good author. In line with that, yes, PvP can be given a try in the same way Stephen King could give romance writing a try. But the romance stories have nothing to do with his quality as a horror writer and, in the same vein, PvP has little to do with Warframe's quality as a PvE game. Like King being geared toward horror writing, Warframe is geared toward PvE. That's just their main audiences, and so those become their main measures of success.

Second, there are two practical considerations with addressing a PvP system.

One is time and quality, both of which are limited resources. Stephen King could write romance novels, but the time and effort required could lower the quality of his horror stories, which would be less-attended to. PvE and PvP is the same thing. That means there's a choice: either the amount of time spent on PvP has to be capped to prevent PvE from degrading, or the target audience needs to shift toward PvP. As I said, the game is mostly geared toward PvE, so they're unlikely to pivot that way. That means capping effort.

Two is the unfortunate fact that PvP doesn't have a big audience. Part of it is for the reason I said above: people don't want PvE to suffer for PvP to operate. Part of it is the fact that other games have geared toward PvP with small PvE elements, so they're just going to do PvP better (due to resources). Part of it is the simple fact that the number of Warframe players who like PvP is a subset of those who like PvE.

That isn't to say PvP shouldn't exist or can't work, but it is to say there are certain limits on how much time can be spent on PvP and how much of an effect PvP would have on Warframe. That is to say: not a lot for both. Not that DE couldn't spare a little extra time fixing some things...cough-cough...

8 hours ago, Elyann said:

The only reason as to why I believe they do not look enticing to the players is due to the current status of Conclave ( dead and abandoned game mode which does not really provide such amazing rewards , in which getting mods can prove annoying , in which bullet jumping is abused to the moon and beyond up to the point in which a conclave match basically feels like watching a pack of crickets shooting with guns , where there's so many weapons and frames available to pick that balance isn't really a thing , ecc ) ; if Conclave were to be reworked completely then who knows what might happen ? Might get a little bit more lively in there .

I doubt it is just liveliness. I don't like Lunaro, I don't like CTF. The latter doesn't function well with Warframe's mobility and the former is such a major shift away from regular run-and-gun gameplay that it's hard to be interested in it. I imagine you'll see a lot of that line of thinking apply to Conclave in general, too....

Even so, the major point was, "these new modes require a fair bit of work and the playerbase for them is questionable since everyone defaults to Annihilation". That's why I mentioned event modes by contrast: those are in the game and quite simple to re-enable. If they end up having a small playerbase, who really cares? It's pretty much a flick of a switch. You lose so little it's pointless not to try it.

8 hours ago, Elyann said:

K-Drives need a whole rework too . I don't want archwings to be nerfed in favor of K-Drives cause it'd be ridiculous for them to be slower than space skateboards but at the same time K-Drives need a boost in their utility that actually encourages the people to use them.
As for the races...it wouldn't be a bad idea as long as the rewards are actually going to be worth it ( that's honestly one of the biggest drives of the community as a whole , you may not like mining and fishing and grinding for Fortuna / Cetus standing but you want those Kitguns and Zaws so you are gonna do it eventually . Give races or conclave something just as good albeit different and the people will try them out ) .

Archwings and railjacks need rebalancing and a whole rework ( again... ) ; their concept isn't bad at all but it's poorly executed and sometimes I see DE actually taking steps backwards when it comes to archwings rather than developing them more .

This again goes to the point of, "is it worth the effort needed to put in?" K-drive racing is pretty straightforward: take any of Fortuna's races, have multiple people run it simultaneously, and disable mods. There's no balance consideration required since K-drives are, by default, identical in performance. In principle, that's very straightforward to do, and it'd be a good way to remove the monotony of Ventkid grinding.

Archwing and Railjack, on the other hand, require the same sort of balancing as PvP has with its Warframe and weapon roster. That's not quite as big as the regular Warframe and weapon roster, but it's also not "just make people run Fortuna races concurrently". And is that effort worth it? Given people don't fancy PvE Railjack and Archwings, it seems very unlikely.

8 hours ago, Elyann said:

As to how I'd rework conclave itself I'd make it be more similar to Halo 2's multiplayer . Frames are only there for aesthetics , they are all gonna have the same stats and abilities are gonna be disabled ( or as an alternative just a few "conclave only" frames would be available with their relative abilities to make balancing be easier ) , only a handful of weapons would be available for use ( I'd say 20 as it's an easy enough number to provide variety while at the same time allowing for an easier time when it comes to balancing stuff . More weapons could then be introduced by rotating what can be used every "x" months ) , modding should not be a thing in conclave as it'd make balancing become much harder or at least it should require a lot  of attention from the developers .
I am not sure whether everyone should be starting with the same weapon and find the others around the map or if loadouts could just be left as they are .
Different game modes ( CTF , king of the hill , slayer / team slayer , headhunter , infection , ecc ) would be a thing , bullet jumping would either need to be removed from the conclave or its effectiveness get reduced / be put on a cooldown . Rewards should once again be worth it .

To reiterate what I said before:

On 2020-06-21 at 3:58 PM, Tyreaus said:

I'm certainly not against Conclave equipment being divorced from PvE equipment, but I do think it shouldn't be just Warframes, and it should specifically be isolated to Conclave. I.e., if you have a Conclave Warframe, it doesn't require any PvE resources whatsoever, including forma and catalysts. That should encompass weapons as well. It should be as straightforward as "if you use it for Conclave, you get it from Conclave".

(Alternatively, Conclave abilities could be repurposed to mods so that players can keep their fashion-frame.)

And regarding more game modes: we have game modes. People gravitate toward Annihilation. PvP's major difference from other PvP games isn't in the modes  but in the mobility. Modes like CTC or Team Annihilation don't fundamentally impact mobility a whole lot, so those gameplay differences are very muted by the gameplay similarities. That is to say: the fact the main aspect, the mobility, doesn't change overshadows the different game objectives.

Where I would say that isn't the case is in KOTH / Interception. That affects mobility directly because it limits areas of conflict to those interception points. That makes a much larger difference on the core gameplay, and so it would feel notably different. Whether that would be successful (see Lunaro) is another question, but it's at least substantially unique. It's important to identify that sort of "what makes a mode feel different from other modes" lest you spend a lot of time sorting out some new mode that, turns out, doesn't play too different from what exists. Not exactly the best expenditure of time.

I will refrain from commenting too much on bullet jump alterations (that's been shot down a lot in the past) or reward systems (which many agree needs some work regardless of other changes) or removing modding, IPS / elemental complexity, etc.

Edited by Tyreaus

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I agree with most of the points OP listed but instead of having special warframes for conclave it could just be that we control the factions like I said here:

Saying that, here are some extra points:

-Battle royale and open war modes cannot be implemented right now.

-We don't need standard names for the modes but surely we could get some of those.

-DE said that they wanted to implement races to conclave and it would be one of the greatest feature that conclave could have since a lot of players don't want to play conclave cuz they just don't want to see a guy with "meta" equipment while in a race, almost always, everything relies on the skill.

The last point on the OP was a bit confusing, anyways, I personally won't like if DE implement something like the celestia syandana. If the pvp players want rewards for playing conclave then those rewards must be cosmetics and nothing more but this cosmetics would be for their pvp characters like (asuming that we play as the factions) Zanuka skin for the Hyenna class or Tyl Regor's skin for the Powerfists class. 

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33 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I agree with most of the points OP listed but instead of having special warframes for conclave it could just be that we control the factions like I said here:

Those changes would make the PvP feel like that of a more traditional shooter's and on the surface that could make it seem more appealing to a broader audience, sure, but why would anyone stop playing the space ninja game to play as one of the chumps that get slaughtered by them instead, especially when they could just play any of those traditional shooters if that's the experience they're after?

37 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

DE said that they wanted to implement races to conclave and it would be one of the greatest feature that conclave could have since a lot of players don't want to play conclave cuz they just don't want to see a guy with "meta" equipment while in a race, almost always, everything relies on the skill.

DE had the exact same idea when they introduced Lunaro to the game. Considering how that turned out, I'm not very optimistic for this potential new racing mode.

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hace 1 minuto, (PS4)fdsc77 dijo:

Those changes would make the PvP feel like that of a more traditional shooter's and on the surface that could make it seem more appealing to a broader audience, sure, but why would anyone stop playing the space ninja game to play as one of the chumps that get slaughtered by them instead, especially when they could just play any of those traditional shooters if that's the experience they're after?

 

Why they would play COD when they have Battlefield? why they will play STBF2 when they have Gears? Sure this will make pvp feel like a traditional shooter but considering how it is now it would be a hundred times better, let me explain.

You don't play another traditional shooters because they are not a traditional shooter, right? you play them because other reasons, Warframe attempted to be a non-convencional shooter with fancy weapons and fancy characters leaping here and there and didn't work because a lot of players have not the connection, characters, weapons... blah blah blah.

Why they would play as the minions that are killed in billions? Dunno, bored to play as the child with two infinite gauntlets and a pocket size deathstar? Why someone would play as the demons from Doom? Why they would play as the Locust in Gears or the aliens in Halo? I don't know about you but I like the enemies design and thats enough to me.

Plus, this game has no characters locked behind loot boxes unlike others.

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18 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Why they would play COD when they have Battlefield? why they will play STBF2 when they have Gears?

People choose any specific one to play because they all play differently.

You could streamline Warframe's gameplay by removing or reducing the parkour and still have it be a different third-person shooter PvP experience from any other, but considering that  the games that Warframe would have to compete with in the PvP market are going to have a main PvP focus while the main focus of Warframe will likely never shift from the PvE, I doubt DE could make a solid enough experience to make the PvP gain any traction.

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