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THE STEEL PATH! Upcoming 'Hard Mode'.

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Just now, CorvusTheHeretic said:

What does "Award mastery" mean exactly?

Completing the regular star chart nodes award mastery points. The "Hard Mode Nodes" might also award mastery upon completion.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, CorvusTheHeretic said:

What does "Award mastery" mean exactly?

Maybe nodes will give mastery points again like upon first completion

Edited by Myscho

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1 minute ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

Can we just agree that they should implement the old scaling for at least THIS mode alongside other ,,mechanics'' to make enemies harder?

Nope, old scaling was horrible. They should do something else instead of using a used kids band aid to patch an amputated leg.

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

Unfortunately, mechanics which shut us down tend to be extremely negatively viewed upon, even though I agree that the enemies need these tools.

That being said, better AI specifically won't help the enemies, since as mentioned before, we have ways to just instantly shut them down so they can't do anything. We are far too strong for any AI adjustment to work, and it baffles me that people keep asking for it when we have map-wide disablers ourselves.

Indeed, people love their "its a power fantasy!" fallback comment.

And yeah, better A.I is not a solution in the state game is in. We have too much range, duration and all that. I think hard mode would be the perfect opportunity to limit those things with innate resistance to abilities etc. that reduce duration, stacking possibilities and so on. Damage should of course not be effected straight up, since the eHP scaling is there to regulate such things. And most importantly in addition to reduced duration on enemies right of the bat they should also add harsh diminishing return on following casts.

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I'm very positive about this mode. To me it could just have been higher level missions, a small reason to do the star-chart again and I would be happy with it. As its more complex with some cosmetic rewards, perhaps mastery for doing all nodes again I have no doubt that this is going to be a great addition to the game.

 

Its understandable if its not going to happen but, damn ,Teshin doing mission announcements would be so good.

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Gerade eben schrieb SneakyErvin:

Nope, old scaling was horrible. They should do something else instead of using a used kids band aid to patch an amputated leg.

Indeed, people love their "its a power fantasy!" fallback comment.

And yeah, better A.I is not a solution in the state game is in. We have too much range, duration and all that. I think hard mode would be the perfect opportunity to limit those things with innate resistance to abilities etc. that reduce duration, stacking possibilities and so on. Damage should of course not be effected straight up, since the eHP scaling is there to regulate such things. And most importantly in addition to reduced duration on enemies right of the bat they should also add harsh diminishing return on following casts.

Limiting abilities only does what? Make the Enemies stronger,less buff effectively means more HP for the enemy or more TTK. In other words we both ask for the same thing,if we get both (old scaling + your idea for example) the difficulty will improve much more

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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Glaive-012 said:

Perhaps whatever this new feature may offer, or for future implements like this, it could impose restrictions on whatever equipment is available to us (e.g. Disabled gear item use, impaired weapon/ability strength and damage, warframe restrictions, etc). We could also impose these restrictions to ourselves by using substantially weaker builds than ones that might just rely too much on overkill; a means to create challenges we impose on ourselves. 

That has been done in the past. Gear used to have a power level assigned to it based off of what it was and its equipped mods. For certain special missions, DE would cap your power level, essentially restricting what you could bring with you. It was not popular to say the least and people found ways around it. Even look at something like the Grendel challenges, which again were received overwhelmingly negatively due to their restrictive nature and people still found ways to cheese them.

People want challenge but not by restricting their previous investment but it is far easier to point out the flaws then it is to find a solution and I do not envy DE in that regard. IMO, the only way to acomplish this would be a ground up overhaul of almost everything in the game and that runs a very large risk of alienating the core player base, which is predominantly casual players. It is a tough nut to crack, one that I don't think DE will ever truly solve.

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Just now, --Q--FSK41 said:

Limiting abilities only does what? Make the Enemies stronger,less buff effectively means more HP for the enemy or more TTK. In other words we both ask for the same thing,if we get both (old scaling + your idea for example) the difficulty will improve much more

Not necessarily.

Many abilities do more than just "make you stronger", they also change mechanics of things. Take Vauban's Bastille/Vortex for example -- these essentially make the enemies do absolutely nothing and allow us to just straight kill them. This means, no matter the enemy level, there is no risk to you, there is no challenge. You just hit the enemies until they die.

Another example is invisibility. Invisibility practically makes you invincible as enemies will not attack you. You may need to dodge certain things such as Osprey Mines or Venomous Eximus procs, but ultimately the only thing that happens here is you shoot things until they die, there is no strategising or reason to build for defence.

However, limiting abilities in some way so that we can't cover the maps with disablers or make ourselves practically invincible allows the enemies to fight back. This means there is a potential difficulty or strategising there, instead of just complete cheese.

Old enemy scaling was not difficulty by any stretch of the imagination, and I know because I've been there. It was simply just stacking scaling damage to kill things easily while not getting hit yourself through a mechanic such as invisibility, just like it is today.

We need more than just "more HP" to make things difficult or challenging.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

It is enough to get you quite a few ranks and if the relays are available to unlock again you will get a descent chunk there. Plus people are still complaining about the missing MR from the founder items.

 

It is literally harder content. Fight stronger enemies, become stronger yourself.

 

Still, you will get more progression for the MR towards the standard game, even if the amounts are small, and like Teshin has given out trophies in the past. Quick Steel event, several Conclave exclusive cosmetics. Dude likes his status symbols.

I mean, we really don't know enough either way with the limited information we have but this doesn't really seem like an opportunity to heavily characterize any character.

 

Unique cosmetics, higher base level starting point towards the end of the star chart, no special characteristics like nightmare mode modifiers or arbitration drones/death mechanic. People have been asking for ways to play the game at higher levels for years without anything more complex added to it. This is meant to fulfill that request. If that is enough for you, well that will have to be a decision you will have to make on your own.

This isn't a pure RPG, I gain nothing from fighting stronger enemies, over the same enemies with the same stats scaled to a different yet lower level. My progression is via mods, so yeah; if I got mods, base increase tokens I could apply to my warframe, the ability to put on more arcane sets at a time, or even an upgrade to put augments on the ability screen or bake them into an ability thus freeing up a slot, this would be "getting stronger from fighting tougher enemies" in this case of course, tougher enemies means bullet sponges which I already regularly due to spending most of my time in endless missions - it doesn't make me better than anyone else who only runs captures and other run and guns barely looking at the surroundings as they find extraction; as long as they spend time total in the missions, its the same time and has the same bearing. Mastery rank doesn't prove anything of player ability, just mastering weapons and to be frank, the fastest way and often the main way players do that is through shared affinity meaning they may not even know how their weapon works, or have gotten it to 30 without ever pulling the trigger. Mastery is nice, if folk like it as a goal; but it means nothing experience wise.

Status symbols exist already, if folk want them, like the Teshin conclave syandana that doesn't even work unless you constantly do those silly daily challenges; more power to them, but I figure through my interactions with players in the game, that that is a very small portion of the players. And those players bore easily, fresh new experiences being a constant requirement or they take breaks. Where as a normal player will keep playing as long as their work in the game goes towards something that has tangible meaning later. You can fight lvl 100 enemies already or ones that have the stats of them, as folk are saying they have already fought an arbitration and that means that they have fought sorties. This provides no additional "Challenge" but just starts the enemies off as their bullet spongy higher than the player plateau without using conditional gimmicks and cheesy tricks to stay alive or win. Once you have done that once what does it prove to re-clear the starchart again doing the same thing, but now being required to play in such a manner?

Edited by Urlan
Mispelling
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Please don't forget to add Steel Path to Railjack and Archwing missions.

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1 hour ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

Wait... So the level through the entire hard mode is the same? Or is it still +100 levels on top of the mission original level but not hard + hardcore mode?

if it is as was told on the devstream where they talked about it it should be: base mission level +100

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Just now, Magnus said:

Please don't forget to add Steel Path to Railjack and Archwing missions.

I don't doubt Archwing will be included, they are standard starchart mission nodes counted for the requirement of arbitration after all. Maybe Railjack would come after, since they don't count as Starchart. Be good to know upfront though.

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1 minute ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

Limiting abilities only does what? Make the Enemies stronger,less buff effectively means more HP for the enemy or more TTK. In other words we both ask for the same thing,if we get both (old scaling + your idea for example) the difficulty will improve much more

It isnt about the buffs and debuffs as much as it is about restricting our option to lock down enemies completely. Old scaling wouldnt be needed since other more interesting solution can be made. Like I said, restricting different statuses or adding enemies that make surrounding enemies immune or more resistant would solve it, but would also reward more tactical gameplay by taking out the priority targets etc. 

Just keep the current scaling but add specific units that are durable like say the Treasurer in the new corpus tiles. That could easily be eximus units. That way if you play smart you take them out, which leaves the trash vulnerable afterwards, while it also lets people try to brute force it as if they were all old 9999 enemies. Just thing of the impact the bugged Crewship healing bubbles did in RJ, now imagine units that provide such buff to nearby allies. It would get people to think and react.

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Finally we have some challenge.
I support 100%

maybe in the future we could have +500 +1000 +2000 levels.
Now that would be amazing!

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1 hour ago, .OwOkin. said:

THE  C O N C L A V E   2

Conclave 2: Electric Boogaloo

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Matt-S:

Not necessarily.

Many abilities do more than just "make you stronger", they also change mechanics of things. Take Vauban's Bastille/Vortex for example -- these essentially make the enemies do absolutely nothing and allow us to just straight kill them. This means, no matter the enemy level, there is no risk to you, there is no challenge. You just hit the enemies until they die.

Another example is invisibility. Invisibility practically makes you invincible as enemies will not attack you. You may need to dodge certain things such as Osprey Mines or Venomous Eximus procs, but ultimately the only thing that happens here is you shoot things until they die, there is no strategising or reason to build for defence.

However, limiting abilities in some way so that we can't cover the maps with disablers or make ourselves practically invincible allows the enemies to fight back. This means there is a potential difficulty or strategising there, instead of just complete cheese.

Old enemy scaling was not difficulty by any stretch of the imagination, and I know because I've been there. It was simply just stacking scaling damage to kill things easily while not getting hit yourself through a mechanic such as invisibility, just like it is today.

We need more than just "more HP" to make things difficult or challenging.

I completely agree we need more don't understand me wrong. What I am trying to say is that if the current HP stays I can use shield gating to be almost immortal and a melee to kill anything without using a single braincell. Back then a common way was Nidus with condition overload stacking,but there we HAVE it ,it was NIDUS (one frame with a good surviveability mechanic and a grouping ability) he to some extend made it easy but that it was ,,needed'' to take him and buff your melee with condition overload weapons sometimes needing to use a primary and secondary to build up the damage shows how much more of a threat the enemies were back then than now. WE NEED MORE than HP I agree but HP is one of the most important things.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

It isnt about the buffs and debuffs as much as it is about restricting our option to lock down enemies completely. Old scaling wouldnt be needed since other more interesting solution can be made. Like I said, restricting different statuses or adding enemies that make surrounding enemies immune or more resistant would solve it, but would also reward more tactical gameplay by taking out the priority targets etc. 

Just keep the current scaling but add specific units that are durable like say the Treasurer in the new corpus tiles. That could easily be eximus units. That way if you play smart you take them out, which leaves the trash vulnerable afterwards, while it also lets people try to brute force it as if they were all old 9999 enemies. Just thing of the impact the bugged Crewship healing bubbles did in RJ, now imagine units that provide such buff to nearby allies. It would get people to think and react.

But wouldn't high HP improve that thinking even further? Why have a single enemy with high hp and being hard to kill if 50% of the enemies can be (back then butchers were trash too but killing a level 9999 gunner with armor was not as much as a joke as now

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Posted (edited)

If this is the long-awaited Hard Mode, then for the love of God, please force 4-players spawn rates for Solo and squads with less than 4 players :sadcry:

I get it not being a thing for the current Sol Chart due to huge gaps between MRs, but since this one requires the Chart completion, this is a perfect opportunity to make it so. Boredom due to lack of mobs is a true enemy of Solo players and Duo-squads.

Edited by Thundervision
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unless De increase the basic resource gain and let us open relics on it i don't see the point on doing hard mode

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26 minutes ago, --Q--Candy said:

What happens when your randoms are bad? You just carry them.

You don't say

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Posted (edited)

Please DE, make this mode to be toggleable without needing to scroll over the node. There's already many things that slow this proces; fractures, liches, arbitrations, invasions, events, etc.

Edited by Johnny-Silverhand
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I do hope to see elements of story in this, like any crossfire has an elemental hazard to demonstrate that this conflict has been going for a bit and is heavily damaging the facility, or seeing Spy missions that restrict to Secondary Only due to a munitions inhibitor.

 

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1 hour ago, --Q--Dioxety said:

Can we make it 200 levels over base mission difficulty.. 100 isn’t enough at all.

200 ain’t enough either , you need to double and Triple that. 

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1 minute ago, Urlan said:

This isn't a pure RPG, I gain nothing from fighting stronger enemies, over the same enemies with the same stats scaled to a different yet lower level.

I mean, you gain personal experience, which is lore wise what Teshin is after. He is more about improving skill then getting more powerful gear, which is why he makes sense from a lore perspective. You do also gain some power from MR. Not all of it direct but additional loadouts, higher standing caps, larger energy pool on unleveled weapons.

5 minutes ago, Urlan said:

it doesn't make me better than anyone else who only runs captures and other run and guns barely looking at the surroundings as they find extraction; as long as they spend time total in the missions, its the same time and has the same bearing.

It does to a degree. THe higher level content you can handle the more you have to invest in the game to counteract the bulletspongyness as well as understanding build basics but are we still talking about why Teshin would be involved in this cause it seems like you are straying from that to this isn't going o be hard or give me stuff I want. THe lore implications are far different from the in game reward structure. Take arbitrations for instance. in the lore the Arbiters of Hexis, share a similar philosophy to Teshin so they came up with arbitrations as a way to challenge the Tenno and advance their skill to the next level. In reality, most people are running around with Inaros and an AOE weapon popping drones like an angry toddler at a birthday party. MR likely also has a similar in universe standing, given the nature of the challenges. For us though it represents additional conveniences, quite a few of which are quite nice.

 

15 minutes ago, Urlan said:

 

Status symbols exist already, if folk want them, like the Teshin conclave syandana that doesn't even work unless you constantly do those silly daily challenges; more power to them, but I figure through my interactions with players in the game, that that is a very small portion of the players.

Cosmetic customization is a pretty key part of the community as is collection. These status symbols will play into that. Will it be for everyone, no. Does it need to be, not really.

 

17 minutes ago, Urlan said:

You can fight lvl 100 enemies already or ones that have the stats of them, as folk are saying they have already fought an arbitration and that means that they have fought sorties

Under extremely restrictive conditions. Arbis only have one node at a time and it is always an endless mission. Sorties only occupy three and only one is around 100. Liches are the closest option to hard mode now and even then you have to get them to 5 and get them to spread where you want and they avoid certain areas like the Kuva fortress and the void. THis is simply meant to give players access to all the nodes in the game but at a higher level so they can play under standard conditions bout not wait for the endless rampup or just hit shorter mission types to test under more realistic conditions.

22 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Once you have done that once what does it prove to re-clear the starchart again doing the same thing, but now being required to play in such a manner?

IDK, what does hunting kuria prove, collecting all the frames, sitting at max mastery, filling out your codex, collecting and maxing all the mods. It isn't always about proving something to other players, sometimes it is just about having something to  do or work towards. I think you are expecting way too much from what has always been explained as giving us access to the often requested feature of starting nodes at higher levels.

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