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Richeatue

The Proposed Hard Mode

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Posted (edited)

So DE made a forum post describing what the new hard mode will be like, and while it all looks fine and dandy, I personally found one major issue with it. There doesn't seem to be any actual good rewards. 

" Higher Difficulty Series of content that rewards exclusive cosmetic decorations, emotes, and mastery.
An extra layer of opportunity for players to use their powerful gear to take on threats at a higher level without having to wait in missions for long periods of time.
 A way to engage with some better scaling Affinity and Mod Rewards."

From what I've seen since the announcement, most people don't care about cosmetic decorations, emotes are meh, and mastery is kind of eh since the majority of people who will play this regularly will most likely already be higher level so mr will also be meh.

This seems like it will just be used for affinity farming, and maybe some rare mod farming.

I was hoping they'd have better rewards than regular starchart missions, like removing credit caches from rotations etc.,  or pretty much anything at all besides just a new endo/mod farm. It just seems a bit pointless to play this past release day, maybe they haven't announced all of the rewards yet? Atm it just seems like it will be another grind zone with nothing really special to it.

Edited by Richeatue
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Posted (edited)

The mode itself is supposed to be the reward, and there are exactly zero ways in hell DE is going to allow "shortcut" rewards.

Edited by -Kittens-
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Posted (edited)

You know what the majority of people thinks and wants as rewards? Where's the survey you took or the data sheet you got from DE?

It's fine if that's your opinion, but if you claim to know everyone's it's just in order to give yours more weight which makes your entire argument look weak and shakey.

I agree with the pointlessness to keep playing it after the unique rewards were reaped for me personally though.

Edited by (PS4)Deeceem
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What keep us playing(mr29) is rewards/resources(kuva/riven slivers. rivens). I really hope all this things come to hard mode!

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There are no evergreen rewards. Even endo and kuva are useless because they drop basically everywhere at this point (endo especially). There are some people who, despite maybe having some rivens, are not interested at all in rivens and riven slivers either.

 

I like having access to higher levels, I couldn't care less for any of the basic rewards people always come up with. None of them. If there had to be some kind of reward (which, I know the game has kind of conditioned us to expect to stimulate that little oxytocin craving and people are always expecting like it has to be there), to me it would be more mechanics on existing bossfights, different AI patterns and additional non-annoying gimmick units like noxes. Something that in itself is to be enjoyed, rather than being tickled by a reward.

 

That said, that's nothing I actually expect for a long time, simply because of time constraints.

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1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

The mode itself is supposed to be the reward, and there are exactly zero ways in hell DE is going to allow "shortcut" rewards.

But we all know it won't be so might as well salvage what we can, throwing a few levels onto enemies isn't going to change how players engage with the content, levels are basically irrelevant in this game at this point, the only motivating/unique factor of the mode will be its rewards it seems. 

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They can approach this with some ways. But we have to wait and see on the PTC.

1. Double resource drop and chance 

2. Radiant Relics instead of regular ones in the rotations or intact relics in higher quantities.

3. Higher credit caches rewards in the region of hundreds of thousands.

Basically star chart rewards, but better.

 

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Can I do Hard Mode Profit-Taker for 8x Credits every Thermia Bonus? 😃

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52 minutes ago, BlackCat500 said:

I like having access to higher levels, I couldn't care less for any of the basic rewards people always come up with. None of them. If there had to be some kind of reward (which, I know the game has kind of conditioned us to expect to stimulate that little oxytocin craving and people are always expecting like it has to be there), to me it would be more mechanics on existing bossfights, different AI patterns and additional non-annoying gimmick units like noxes. Something that in itself is to be enjoyed, rather than being tickled by a reward.

Yea, one of the bigger problems is it just seems like they are increasing the level, without increasing the skill required. Which means it's just going to be a grind for more mastery for me rather than a game mode that changes things up and challenges players.

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On paper it seems pretty cool tbh... I mean I'll take mastery and a couple cosmetic rewards any time of the day. Being able to play every tileset at a reasonable level will make the game more fun and it'll be much faster to reach a point in endless mission where you're actually getting some enjoyment. Hope they do add another even higher level down the line though, because sortie level is for the 1000th time not really a challenge for most people.

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2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

But we all know it won't be so might as well salvage what we can, throwing a few levels onto enemies isn't going to change how players engage with the content, levels are basically irrelevant in this game at this point, the only motivating/unique factor of the mode will be its rewards it seems. 

In a perfect world sure, but if you gander to ESO and Kuva 200+, there are a few caveats to that direction, but gilded riven material, nah? Directed augments? Nah. Customizable Auras? Nah. Big ass kuva? Nah. Kuva Fusor? Nah. Valence transmuter? Nah.

The QoL is the mode itself and then we're done.

At this point I think a 2 is distinctly in WF's future because they can't seem to get on the offroad towards streamlined content and even adding ANY kind of directly user requested content.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

You know what the majority of people thinks and wants as rewards? Where's the survey you took or the data sheet you got from DE?

It's fine if that's your opinion, but if you claim to know everyone's it's just in order to give yours more weight which makes your entire argument look weak and shakey.

I agree with the pointlessness to keep playing it after the unique rewards were reaped for me personally though.

 I mean this is just based off of the fact that most people I've talked to about it so far seem to think the majority of the rewards are just more or less filler/not that good, even the ones that enjoy decorations. I never claimed to know what everyone wanted, I don't really know where you got that from. 

Edited by Richeatue
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8 minutes ago, Richeatue said:

this is just based off of the fact that most people I've talked to about it so far seem to think the majority of the rewards are just more or less filler/not that good

So, hearsay, when the say is just spitballing speculation anyway.

Nobody has any idea what specifically the rewards will entail. It is far to early to call them good or bad.

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The reward is getting to fight level 100 enemies right from the start of a mission without spending 40-60 minutes getting there. 

Any other reward beyond that will never be good enough. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

The mode itself is supposed to be the reward, and there are exactly zero ways in hell DE is going to allow "shortcut" rewards.

 I don't want shortcut rewards, I didn't even list any shortcut rewards. I just wanted a reason to play this other than some decor or as an affinity farm. I was just hoping they added scaling rewards or something, the thing people have been asking for for years. They haven't released all of the details yet, so I might be wrong, but you would be pissed getting 7.5k cred caches from a level 100+ mission. 

Edited by Richeatue

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1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

So, hearsay, when the say is just spitballing speculation anyway.

Nobody has any idea what specifically the rewards will entail. It is far to early to call them good or bad.

Yea that's what I've just said, it's an opinion piece of course.

And I made the post because we have do a general idea now based off of what DE has listed in their post. I did also mention they might not have announced all of the rewards yet.

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4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

They can approach this with some ways. But we have to wait and see on the PTC.

1. Double resource drop and chance 

2. Radiant Relics instead of regular ones in the rotations or intact relics in higher quantities.

3. Higher credit caches rewards in the region of hundreds of thousands.

Basically star chart rewards, but better.

 

I would honestly really like this, I was hoping hard mode would have scaling rewards in the first place.

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12 hours ago, Cubewano said:

But we all know it won't be so might as well salvage what we can, throwing a few levels onto enemies isn't going to change how players engage with the content, levels are basically irrelevant in this game at this point, the only motivating/unique factor of the mode will be its rewards it seems. 

And if that's the case, then DE might as well not have bothered. The whole reason they're doing this Steel Path thing was - in their own words - to give people who want higher difficulty a higher difficulty mode to play. I'm personally perfectly fine with Steel Path being a niche game mode for a niche audience specifically looking for higher enemy levels. If you don't find that compelling, then I'd argue you're not in the niche audience it's aimed at. And this goes for everybody, by the way. If the only context within which you're internalising the new mode is "better farm," then I'd argue that you're not looking for a "Hard Mode."

If the only motivating factor behind Steel Path is its extrinsic rewards, then it's not worth adding to the game in the first place. If the ideal state of a new mode is "give me stuff as quickly as possible," then DE could just skip all the work and just mail us stuff every week. I realise this comes across as facetious, but I also find it important to overstate just how disconnected that line of thinking is from game design. "Warframe is a grindy game" is not an excuse but a statement of a problem. A game mode which exists simply for grinding and farming is wasted development work. It also guarantees either nerfs to the mode or power creep for the players. The moment you present something as a "more efficient farm," you're going to see a mass of players who hate it but play it anyway, then complain on the forums and eventually get it nerfed. Exactly like Arbitrations.

 

12 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

They can approach this with some ways. But we have to wait and see on the PTC.

1. Double resource drop and chance 

2. Radiant Relics instead of regular ones in the rotations or intact relics in higher quantities.

3. Higher credit caches rewards in the region of hundreds of thousands.

Basically star chart rewards, but better.

"Star Chart rewards but better" seems fair. These do appear to be just "Star Chart missions but harder," so it only makes sense. DE don't seem to want to go that way, though. Everything they design HAS to be a content island and HAS to push everyone into playing it. I don't think they're capable of designing niche content any more. Which, as a player with niche tastes, is kind of disheartening to me.

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

And if that's the case, then DE might as well not have bothered. The whole reason they're doing this Steel Path thing was - in their own words - to give people who want higher difficulty a higher difficulty mode to play. I'm personally perfectly fine with Steel Path being a niche game mode for a niche audience specifically looking for higher enemy levels. If you don't find that compelling, then I'd argue you're not in the niche audience it's aimed at. And this goes for everybody, by the way. If the only context within which you're internalising the new mode is "better farm," then I'd argue that you're not looking for a "Hard Mode."

If the only motivating factor behind Steel Path is its extrinsic rewards, then it's not worth adding to the game in the first place. If the ideal state of a new mode is "give me stuff as quickly as possible," then DE could just skip all the work and just mail us stuff every week. I realise this comes across as facetious, but I also find it important to overstate just how disconnected that line of thinking is from game design. "Warframe is a grindy game" is not an excuse but a statement of a problem. A game mode which exists simply for grinding and farming is wasted development work. It also guarantees either nerfs to the mode or power creep for the players. The moment you present something as a "more efficient farm," you're going to see a mass of players who hate it but play it anyway, then complain on the forums and eventually get it nerfed. Exactly like Arbitrations.

 While I agree, I still think they should improve the rewards from base starchart rotations. Getting vitality caches and 7k cred caches while fighting level 100 enemies is just annoying and pointless. Generally speaking, when playing video games More Difficulty=Better rewards. At the very least, I was hoping they'd remove the trash from the rotations a bit so we aren't getting rewards designed for literal mr5 players.

Well, this and the fact that this gamemode will be stale after a while anyway due to the braindead ai. Level 100 enemies will only be fun for so long before they become as stale as the level 60 ones. This wouldn't be as bad if there was some kind of scaling enemy ai/quicker enemy ai, but that's a different story.

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9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

And if that's the case, then DE might as well not have bothered. The whole reason they're doing this Steel Path thing was - in their own words - to give people who want higher difficulty a higher difficulty mode to play. I'm personally perfectly fine with Steel Path being a niche game mode for a niche audience specifically looking for higher enemy levels. If you don't find that compelling, then I'd argue you're not in the niche audience it's aimed at. And this goes for everybody, by the way. If the only context within which you're internalising the new mode is "better farm," then I'd argue that you're not looking for a "Hard Mode."

If the only motivating factor behind Steel Path is its extrinsic rewards, then it's not worth adding to the game in the first place. If the ideal state of a new mode is "give me stuff as quickly as possible," then DE could just skip all the work and just mail us stuff every week. I realise this comes across as facetious, but I also find it important to overstate just how disconnected that line of thinking is from game design. "Warframe is a grindy game" is not an excuse but a statement of a problem. A game mode which exists simply for grinding and farming is wasted development work. It also guarantees either nerfs to the mode or power creep for the players. The moment you present something as a "more efficient farm," you're going to see a mass of players who hate it but play it anyway, then complain on the forums and eventually get it nerfed. Exactly like Arbitrations.

They shouldn't have bothered but they have and now it's too late to back out so all that's left is to salvage what work they can as they aren't getting the time back. DE caved (as they do) to some half formed notion of a solution to balance that clearly would never work, over committed to it happening, and now are expected to put it out one way or the other, even if the notion just isn't one that can work under the current state of inherent design balance issues that plague this game in its pursuit for more universal engagement, and so they will. It's clear from even their initial statement on how they would make difficulty (more levels, something one of their own devs not long after outright said would have no effect) that not a lot of thought had been put into the suggestion before they just went along with it, and by the sounds of what is in the test cluster they haven't evolved much past such hollow measures. Whether this is a result of DE just having no grasp on this games balance as seems a constant, or DE just being unwilling to make the difficult choice (also a constant) to address to core balance problems they have baked into the game over the years, we and DE both know difficulty isn't something so easily remedied in this game with something like a quick and easy level slider. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

They shouldn't have bothered but they have and now it's too late to back out so all that's left is to salvage what work they can as they aren't getting the time back.

"Salvaging" it doesn't necessarily have to mean "turning it into a farm," though. Far as I'm concerned, that's the exact opposite - it's a massive waste. Warframe has needed custom difficulty settings for a long time. Whether YOU feel they would make a difference or not isn't at issue. Being able to play low-level planetary nodes at a higher, more meaningful level would be a decent way to salvage it. Granted that's a broader issue, but setting a FIXED level for all nodes rather than just adding levels to the underlying nodes would have been a decent first step. Not setting this up as "ultra super hard mode" but rather "custom difficulty" would have been another.

There's merit to playing legacy nodes at a higher level. I personally feel that turning it into a farm would fundamentally undermine that benefit.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

"Salvaging" it doesn't necessarily have to mean "turning it into a farm," though. Far as I'm concerned, that's the exact opposite - it's a massive waste.

Sadly alot of warframe`s content needs a salvaging because most of it is effectively the same content with only a super b.s. drop rate of paultry goods that could easily be bypassed via market buying or one could get something vastly superior, especially if they give little care to mastery from weapons past a certain point. Which also does not help that outside of kuva, We already have effective farming sectors with Index for Credits, Arbitations for Endo and you can use any dark sector survival for most common resources and most unique resources tossed into `new game systems` is just derailing so many things.

...hence why plenty would hate how kuva lich relics has a bunch of loots that make no freaking sense and on the opposite end, Railjack has nothing worth a farm on it to redeem it outside of improving the ship for likely improvements you never really going to need for the most part(since unless we get a new raid type boss, with new war, is pretty pointless to grind for less then .1% items, that likely no one really wants to try and farm to sell, even for plat when its likely better to riven mod fkery instead), especially when the basic needs can be achieved thru just sneaking onto other people`s ships to leech loot or something along those lines.

Then you get cases where entirely new game modes have to be so beyond b.s. in what they provide. Such as the case with relic farming, now being done on disruption for the quickest, easiest relic farm speed, especially for endless modes, due to how you can rush a wave, by just killing one specific enemy, ASAP, per conduit, where unless you have no issues with constantly reloading into new screens every 5 or less minutes, you honestly aren`t getting much of a boon with capture spam cheese-its.

Quote

Warframe has needed custom difficulty settings for a long time. Whether YOU feel they would make a difference or not isn't at issue. Being able to play low-level planetary nodes at a higher, more meaningful level would be a decent way to salvage it.

Custom settings usually imply that we have a bit more then just a toggle switch to jump the levels of enemies by X amount. Granted i am spoiled by games like Disgaea, when i hear the term custom, as i expect to be able to modify values at the trade off of reducing other values(such as exp, mana & money or Hel for disgaea) and likely putting enemy boons in place like giving them b.s. modifiers/level-scaling and even what might as well be nightmare mode modifiers to boost the gains i desire.

Unless this higher level implies that all droppable resource loot, credits, endo, and the odds for certain things got multiplied a sizable amount, more on the former then drop mods honestly, well then i would not really call it a hard mode. Just D.E. slapping a fancy name on what is just +X extra level on enemies and nothing else really, even if they shove so called cosmetics, when its just more of a lazier done version then new game modes, since its just existing content with likely an extra loot pool attached to it. Which more then likely if its just thrown in the regular rotation/end-mission reward table, then thats a slap in the face on some ends on further dilluting certain pools, especially RELIC FARMING loot pools, if any use on doing a hard mode relic farming node would have any boons at all.

Quote

Granted that's a broader issue, but setting a FIXED level for all nodes rather than just adding levels to the underlying nodes would have been a decent first step. Not setting this up as "ultra super hard mode" but rather "custom difficulty" would have been another.

There's merit to playing legacy nodes at a higher level. I personally feel that turning it into a farm would fundamentally undermine that benefit.

Honestly there are many better approaches, such as condensing loot pools in multiple ways, likely thru the hard mode such as getting rid of pointless end rewards for most missions like credit/endo/resource packets and have it just be populated by uncommon/rare mods and relics. Plus maybe even add a little excitement like the chance a end reward could produce a bonus pick up at say a 50% chance, and doing it endless would boost the chance by 10% per rotation you do, so by wave 25, where enemies are already very high level, would allow a nice relic farming method, Which would be a challenging mode that gives nice rewards then just boosting enemy levels and for the most part, only boost the affinity one gains as far as i can tell.

If D.E. is going to just give us a hard mode, they might as well cut the number of mission nodes per planet in half(just like how railjack needs to have its nodes in the proximas downed to about 2-3 per prox until they give us freaking new game modes for railjack), have certain planets have more specific loot tables and actually give more reason to go after specific planets for certain loot, especially if the drop rates fo said loot is vastly boosted by playing in hard mode. Instead of it just being tied to a particular enemy dropping particular mods or some other b.s.

 

Overall, getting this `game mode`, feels more of a D.E. ignoring more important things, like making pets actually more then just buff slaves or gimmick meme builds that usually are more lol then useful. The fact focus system still has been untouched basically still and serves as another dead system for likely 95% of it besides whats used for waybound skills ,eidolon hunting and the free energy/heal effects. Aka one of many dozens upon dozens of things that need fixing in just the coding itself, no SFX updates, no Texture redoings, said QoLs can just be snucked in as easily as stasis removal was done.

Anyway, between PSO2 starting its 4th of july event campaign & sneaking in the MAJESTY of CHALLENGE QUEST(seriously, something D.E. should of put in for warframe aka that TOWER HEIST some content creators have suggested a while back), Borderlands 3 sneaking in its 3rd campaign DLC and work hours i now have for finally having employment, i honestly see less and less reason to give warframe much care besides being critical on its faults and popping on for a bit every few days these days.

Edited by Avienas

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3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

"Salvaging" it doesn't necessarily have to mean "turning it into a farm," though. Far as I'm concerned, that's the exact opposite - it's a massive waste. Warframe has needed custom difficulty settings for a long time. Whether YOU feel they would make a difference or not isn't at issue. Being able to play low-level planetary nodes at a higher, more meaningful level would be a decent way to salvage it. Granted that's a broader issue, but setting a FIXED level for all nodes rather than just adding levels to the underlying nodes would have been a decent first step. Not setting this up as "ultra super hard mode" but rather "custom difficulty" would have been another.

There's merit to playing legacy nodes at a higher level. I personally feel that turning it into a farm would fundamentally undermine that benefit.

It is an option though, and the most realistic one they are able to fall back on seeing and difficulty is realistically not on the table, not relatively soon, and not something I'm frankly even confident DE will ever be willing to actually bear the brunt of to achieve. If they want to give the mode some kind of purpose/value on launch their option is basically some kind of reward system at this point, higher level engagement isn't on the table and its a far more complex and heavy matter to solve than some few weeks turn around. Levels as many well know no longer serve the balancing purpose they were made for, they don't really enhance difficulty, they've become arbitrary, enemies from 1-1000+ die effectively the same to our over bloated arsenal and that's not changing on its own, so that as a modifier is meaningless in isolation as well, and that notion being more or less being the entire core concept of difficulty for the mode makes it similarly ineffective.

The whole notion of this node was frankly bad from the start just because the fragmenting it'd cause in community matchmaking, something that is important to avoid where you can in a primarily multi-player game, it being an impractical way to try and side step balance issues on top of it just worsens the concept, if DE wants to fix the balance issues of they game they need to directly address the balance issues, something that would make a difficulty slider non-essential in the first place, every slapped on bandaid solution they've tried hasn't stuck and this one likely won't either (not for the cause it's supposedly aiming for) for a reason, the balance issues in this game that make challenge late game such a sought after and seemingly impossible task is tied to fundamental design issues you can't just handwave away with a handful of secondary modifiers. 

It's a nice notion, this mode allowing difficulty, but its an unrealistic one at this point and they aren't going to redesign/rebalance the kind of aspects of this game that would need such in relatively soon manner to make the concept work. Makes me wonder what happened to all that talk Scott had about working on the foundation before piling more on it, and the firm acknowledgement that they'd need to start trimming some over performers to better even out game balance, both seem relatively absent from the application of this mode and their pursuit of difficulty. 

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Rewards really don't matter all that much.  Gameplay is what matters.

There is no reason to get rivens, endo, mods, even guns if there isn't gameplay to be had.  A hard mode with elevated levels is a couple years late but a good start and a welcome addition.

I have no idea why any high MR player would play for rewards.  Rewards are trivial.  We can get them at will, whenever we want them, and by the time you're high MR you know you can do this.  Acquiring resources or wealth is a trivial venture at that point, and frankly it doesn't matter at all.  It's literally been years since I could recite the drop locations for the games resources because I haven't intentionally targeted any resource except Kuva(and I grumble at that one, I sure as hell don't play because I enjoy its methods).

All hard mode really has the potential to accomplish is to give old missions the "feel" they had when we weren't powerful, back when rounding a corner into twenty grineer actually meant making some real decisions and fancy footwork.  I don't really think enemy levels are going to accomplish this, but if it did, I'd play it for no rewards at all.

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3 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Rewards really don't matter all that much.  Gameplay is what matters.

It matters a lot, especially for a looter shooter like Warframe where rewards is the only thing that keep people playing this game. For me, once I get those trophies and emotes I will never touch the game mode ever again because there is no reason to come back to it.

 

 

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