Stronger Weapons or Harder Enemies

[hippokrene]

Stronger Weapons.

Stronger Warframe powers while I'm at it.

I want a two-handed katana that can slice the Exploiter Orb open in one swipe while dropping mini-nukes around me in a 5k radius. Maybe on the third strike, the mailed banhammer of [DE] Kickbot appears above the battlefield before crashing to the ground in a fiery inferno, turning the map and all enemies on it into smoking cinder.

Until that happens, no, the weapons are not strong enough.

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, hippokrene said:

Stronger Weapons.

Stronger Warframe powers while I'm at it.

I want a two-handed katana that can slice the Exploiter Orb open in one swipe while dropping mini-nukes around me in a 5k radius. Maybe on the third strike, the mailed banhammer of [DE] Kickbot appears above the battlefield before crashing to the ground in a fiery inferno, turning the map and all enemies on it into smoking cinder.

Until that happens, no, the weapons are not strong enough.

[GKP_light]

Il y a 12 heures, DrakeWurrum a dit :

Not really. He just took longer.

The only challenge from it was the effect on a player's patience.

For us, the best defense is attaque. when you can kill everything in an instant, there is no danger.

we need to not be able to kill everything in an instant to have danger.

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

we need to not be able to kill everything in an instant to have danger.

And almost every time DE has done this or created an enemy that doesn't die instantly, the community hops on the forums and screams "THIS IS TOO HARD!" "DE NERF X ENEMY" or "X ENEMY IS NO FUN. REMOVE IT!"  

I have seen it so many times in the last 4+ years I've been playing the game and reading the forums.  

[DrakeWurrum]

5 hours ago, GKP_light said:

For us, the best defense is attaque. when you can kill everything in an instant, there is no danger.

we need to not be able to kill everything in an instant to have danger.

I'm not saying otherwise.

I'm simply saying that increasing an enemy's EHP does not, on its own, make an enemy dangerous.

"Oh no, I need ten Opticor shots instead of one!"
Enemy still dies. Still poses no threat. It just took ten shots instead.

Edited June 28, 2020 by DrakeWurrum

[DatDarkOne]

57 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I'm simply saying that increasing an enemy's EHP does not, on its own, make an enemy dangerous.

"Oh no, I need ten Opticor shots instead of one!"
Enemy still dies. Still poses no threat. It just took ten shots instead.

This is why I loved the original release of the Nox before they got nerfed.  They were hard to kill even using Stealth Finishers, They could punish you with their toxic sludge thrower guns, and even kill you with the poison clouds when they died.  So even when I managed to Stealth melee kill them, they were still a threat because the cloud could kill my Ivara from being too close.  

All that changed when they got nerfed.  *sadface* 

[TheKazz91]

I want option C. MEANINGFUL CHOICES

The idea that you can't have powerful weapons and challenge is completely false and shows a lack of creativity. There are and have always been options to make something challenging while still delivering a power fantasy. Contrary to popular belief bigger numbers do not mean bigger challenge. The proof of that should be pretty clear for literally anyone that has stuck around in MOT for far longer than any sane person should or watched someone else do that on a stream or youtube video. It isn't challenging to mow down enemies that are level 5000 it only means your choices become far more limited. That's it that is all that changes. Creating challenging content starts at the design level not the balance level. Take WoW for example raids in WoW are not widely considered the most challenging PvE content in all of gaming because they have the biggest numbers or because the bosses are level ten bajillion It's because they are designed in such a way that they require the players to respect mechanics. WoW's raid bosses are not just bigger enemies with more health that do more damage. They are puzzles to be solved that require planning, preparation, strategy, and at the higher difficulties flawless execution. That doesn't stop you characters in wow from feeling powerful if anything overcoming something that was legitimately challenging makes you feel more powerful that simply slogging through droves of cannon fodder.

[GKP_light]

Il y a 13 heures, DatDarkOne a dit :

And almost every time DE has done this or created an enemy that doesn't die instantly, the community hops on the forums and screams "THIS IS TOO HARD!" "DE NERF X ENEMY" or "X ENEMY IS NO FUN. REMOVE IT!"  

I have seen it so many times in the last 4+ years I've been playing the game and reading the forums.  

but i don't speak of 1 ennemis. i speak about all of them at high level.

i want the old HP scaling back. (not the armor)

[Vahenir]

As someone mentioned its possible to make hard stuff, but that also requires better balance between all weapons and frames. Right now all harder enemies would really accomplish is forcing a smaller variety when it comes to frames and builds.

So basically unless the entire game is rebalanced and warframe abilities, buffs etc are somewhat standardized along with weapon damage it wont really work all that well to bring in actual hard missions and whatnot. Where would the balance point be? Should it be balanced for the most meta cheese stuff imaginable or where a decent build on any weapon/frame will be enough? In either case after such a rebalance the "power fantasy" would most likely be dead.

I could see hard missions being made through something like dungeons or raids in MMOs where the main challenge is in the boss mechanics and team coordination rather than pure tankyness or damage output. In either case all difficult content in an online game such as this will be optimized to death by the players because i don't think many players like to fail missions and will do what they can to minimize the risk of failure. Be it through enforcing a strict meta setup and premade teams or ranting at people that fail the mechanics.

Don't get me wrong however id love to see some kind of heist type missions that really benefit from a proper and communicating team, involving several mission types and railjack all in the same heist. Like the mission is to kill captain bob. So first up is a spy mission to find out where he is, use railjack to get to the location of the mission. Detection at this point means Bob gets word of the attack and takes some kind of action to stop the team. Que large galleon/obelisk fight with both railjack and sabotage elements. Proceed to bobs location. Ohnoes, theres an annihilation grid around his ship, board the control station and shut it down. Crap you got detected! Bobs ship is spooling up its void drive, you have 3 minutes before the ship leaves the sector. Board the ship and fight your way to the bridge where you fight bob in an epic showdown with full mechanics and telegraphs etc.

So stuff like that. Something that could theoretically be possible would be active scaling depending on how the team does in the missions. Blast through easily and the next one will be harder and potentially faster. Struggle and the next one is easier but takes longer.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

Make heavy units like Corpus Techs and Infested Ancients actually heavy, with higher EHP and extreme resistance to any and all AoE damage from weapons or frames. Priority targets that necessitate single target damage in specific elements will go a long way towards tactical diversity and less trivial difficulty.

[GKP_light]

il y a 5 minutes, Xylena_Lazarow a dit :

Make heavy units like Corpus Techs and Infested Ancients actually heavy, with higher EHP and extreme resistance to any and all AoE damage from weapons or frames. Priority targets that necessitate single target damage in specific elements will go a long way towards tactical diversity and less trivial difficulty.

this is exactly what they should not do.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

31 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

this is exactly what they should not do.

Why? Too attached to AoE spam or your college freshman essay on AI?

[Vahenir]

What would be seen as AOE damage in this case? 

Mesas 4? 

Melee weapons? All are technically AOE already.

What about punchthrough on weapons? 

Or is this only for explosions and large AOE powers?

What about chaining attacks like the nukor and aprex?

In either case it wouldn't add much more than forcing a few pure AOE weapons out of being all that good. So instead of the bramma being /the/ meta weapon it'd probably end up being the stahlta or similar since it has both AOE and single target.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Vahenir

[Steel_Rook]

On 2020-06-26 at 4:53 AM, zurefox said:

Stronger Weapons or Harder Enemies

I vote for "neither." What Warframe needs right now is weaker weapons and weaker enemies. The way weapon damage buffs stack multiplicatively with each other and with critical damage is absurd and requires all manner of obtrusive game mechanics to prevent the combat system from collapsing under its own weight. I can't speak for what "we" want, but what we need is for weapon damage buffs (mods, in particular) to become additive with each other, and I'm very much including critical damage here as well. We also need for elemental damage mod overstacking to not balloon weapon damage to the extent that it does now. It would also be nice for our weapon damage to be brought down to somewhere around the level of our ability damage, not counting the few outliers.

Once our weapons' damage scales in some kind of sane manner, then we can look into un-#*!%ing enemy EHP stats. Armour, for one thing, needs to not scale with level, but offer a fixed degree of protection specific to the enemy. Say, 600 armour for a Heavy Gunner, 900-1200 armour for a Nox. I'm fine with TTK where it is, but the excessive amounts of health, armour and shields enemies have make NPC vs. NPC combat essentially pointless, not to mention turning reflected damage into a joke.

We don't need more power creep, we don't need more difficulty creep, we don't need more feature creep. Game's creepy enough as it is. What we need is another Revised update with some teeth to it. An update which "breaks those bones" as Scott McGregor put it, and actually addresses the game's long-standing mess of buff stacking all in one go. DE have been testing the waters for a while, tepidly changing damage stacking here and there. Condition Overload, for instance, changed from a multiplicative damage buff to being additive with base damage - as it should be. But that's one mod. There are probably hundreds more.

Warframe needs a balance pass across the board, is what I'm getting at.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

44 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

In either case it wouldn't add much more than forcing a few pure AOE weapons out of being all that good. So instead of the bramma being /the/ meta weapon it'd probably end up being the stahlta or similar since it has both AOE and single target.

I'm not sure the best way to accomplish this, but I would like a game where "spam AoE" is not the optimal strategy 99.9% of the time.

[GKP_light]

il y a une heure, Xylena_Lazarow a dit :

Why? Too attached to AoE spam or your college freshman essay on AI?

"Too attached to AoE spam" If aoe existe, it is not to make them useless.

Create an ennemis immun to certain things is not dificulty, it is impossibility.

it is frustrating if we don't have what is need to kill them, and is not fun more fun for the one that have the weapon to kill them.

 

(I am in favor to a nerf of the damage of Saryne and the bramma, but keep them strong most of the time exepte for some ennemis is very bad.)

[Vahenir]

42 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

I'm not sure the best way to accomplish this, but I would like a game where "spam AoE" is not the optimal strategy 99.9% of the time.

Basically for that to change id say they need to reduce the amount of enemies we fight at any given time a lot. At least in some instances. So for instance it could be that you clear a room of a horde of enemies and then a few commandoes get sent in that are like mini bosses. AOE still works, but since there are far fewer enemies to fight it isn't really as optimal anymore.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, GKP_light said:

Create an ennemis immun to certain things is not dificulty, it is impossibility.

I'm suggesting more enemies resist AoE damage similar to the Nox, never full immunity, which I agree is terrible gameplay. AoE should always be good at clearing groups of weaklings, but nothing else. Heavy/elite/miniboss enemies (on-level) should severely punish the player for trying to AoE spam them.

1 hour ago, Vahenir said:

So for instance it could be that you clear a room of a horde of enemies and then a few commandoes get sent in that are like mini bosses.

That's part of what I'm saying, but I think we could make the commando mini bosses tougher instead of making the hordes smaller.

[GKP_light]

il y a 1 minute, Xylena_Lazarow a dit :

I'm suggesting more enemies resist AoE damage similar to the Nox, never full immunity, which I agree is terrible gameplay. AoE should always be good at clearing groups of weaklings, but nothing else. Heavy/elite/miniboss enemies (on-level) should severely punish the player for trying to AoE spam them.

The AOE weapon and ability should not be as effective as they are, compare to single target weapon and ability.

even if it is juste a resistance and not an immunity on some ennemis, i think it is the wrong way to balance it.

If i can kill any ennemis in 1.5 seconde with an Ignis wraith, it should be possible to kill it mush faster (0.4s ?) with a single tarket weapon, like a Soma Prime.

[Vahenir]

1 minute ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

That's part of what I'm saying, but I think we could make the commando mini bosses tougher instead of making the hordes smaller.

Well, the thing is that there are often so many enemies its near impossible to see what's going on. So having fewer enemies will allow these minibosses to have more complex mechanics and attacks. An attack that is relatively easy to evade with a clear telegraph can be extremely powerful after all, while something in the middle of a lit up screen of fx needs to be fairly weak since theres too much going on to reliably see it so it can be evaded or countered. Use the segmented hp of the jackal and liches on these enemies to make them last longer.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, GKP_light said:

If i can kill any ennemis in 1.5 seconde with an Ignis wraith, it should be possible to kill it mush faster (0.4s ?) with a single tarket weapon, like a Soma Prime.

The problem is that in 1.5 seconds the Ignis Wraith kills the Heavy Gunner and also everything else in the room. Meanwhile, the Soma Prime user is still switching weapons. Now if it would take 15+ seconds to kill a Heavy Gunner with an Ignis Wraith or other AoE damage, players might actually want to use tactics instead of AoE spam...

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

On 2020-06-25 at 7:11 PM, (XB1)Calliber said:

Harder Enemies, I want to actually be worried about my frame going down. EDIT: Without self-nerfing my build that is.

My favorite frame dies to two bullets outside her 4 at higher levels.  I don't want higher damage enemies, I want tankier enemies that can survive a couple shots.

[GKP_light]

Il y a 20 heures, Xylena_Lazarow a dit :

The problem is that in 1.5 seconds the Ignis Wraith kills the Heavy Gunner and also everything else in the room. Meanwhile, the Soma Prime user is still switching weapons. Now if it would take 15+ seconds to kill a Heavy Gunner with an Ignis Wraith or other AoE damage, players might actually want to use tactics instead of AoE spam...

as AOE wepon, it is the role of the ignis to kill a pack of 15 ennemis faster the the Soma.

but actually, even for 2 ennemis, the ignis is faster.