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What we know of hard mode


Jarriaga

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont understand the bullheadedness in being against balanced rewards (which is all we ask for in the end) since it would have no impact on your experience but would have massive impact on the experience of several others in a positive way. Is this done because you don a ivory suit of full plate armor or because you just want to argue or possibly just dont understand the concept of what we ask for?

That is why I stopped replying to him. He holds a position that hurts other people's enjoyment while our position does not affect his. I no longer know if he's just trolling, playing devil's advocate, or just riding a high horse. 

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I don't understand, why are people against extra kuva in hard mode? Hard mode isn't supposed to be for casuals, it's supposed to be an actually hard gamemode for people who are experienced at the game, which is basically the people who invest in rivens to begin with, if you don't want to play hard mode for kuva, then don't and just stick to normal mode, it'll just take a little more time than hard mode.

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44 minutes ago, Caliboom said:

I don't understand, why are people against extra kuva in hard mode? Hard mode isn't supposed to be for casuals, it's supposed to be an actually hard gamemode for people who are experienced at the game, which is basically the people who invest in rivens to begin with, if you don't want to play hard mode for kuva, then don't and just stick to normal mode, it'll just take a little more time than hard mode.

Yet here they are trying to justify why the current state of affairs (No Kuva scaling) is a good thing and the way it should remain.

If we give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they truly believe that (No trolling or devil's advocate), then I can only think of it as a form of purity test for hardcore devotion, which is the most toxic form of elitism I can think of. Statements such as "And this is why I see people who chase kuva like I see a drug addict." and "If you are just hoping to get more Kuva per hour, then stick to normal. Thats the very mindset i want far away from hard mode", if serious, are toxic.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

If we give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they truly believe that (No trolling or devil's advocate), then I can only think of it as a form of purity test for hardcore devotion, which is the most toxic form of elitism I can think of.

How so?

How is the expectation that Hard Mode not be compulsory elitist?

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5 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

How so?

How is the expectation that Hard Mode not be compulsory elitist?

I don't understand your question. Kuva is not a resource that is exclusive to hard mode and no one here is asking to make it exclusive to hard mode or to reduce the amount you currently get in normal mode. Care to elaborate?

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6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't understand your question. Kuva is not a resource that is exclusive to hard mode and no one here is asking to make it exclusive to hard mode or to reduce the amount you currently get in normal mode. Care to elaborate?

If the highest yields of Kuva is tied to hard mode that would effectively make Hard Mode compulsory for Kuva farming.

Now, please answer my initial question...

How is not holding that expectation elitist?

 

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41 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

If the highest yields of Kuva is tied to hard mode that would effectively make Hard Mode compulsory for Kuva farming.

Now, please answer my initial question...

How is not holding that expectation elitist?

Normally, you have 2 choices:

Lower effort = Lower reward

Higher effort = Higher reward

But for Kuva, we have:

Lower effort = Higher reward

Higher effort = Lower reward

"Compulsory" means that there is no choice. No option. If you go by the quantity argument, then you are correct. But that is also true on the other side of street since it then makes normal mode compulsory for Kuva farming due to the differences in TTK. Hard Kuva Disruption begins at level 140 with a 2x armor and shield multiplier and only going up from there while still giving you 350 Kuva per C rotation. This is turn makes normal mode compulsory for the most scare resource in the entire game when playing the same mode for the exct same amount of time.

If increasing Kuva for hard mode would make it compulsory for farming Kuva, then it is also compulsory for every other non-set resource due to the drop chance booster though. Even with mods as well thanks to the mod drop chance booster. You'll see how that goes farming Condition Overload in hard Uranus vs normal Uranus.

Yet you don't see them arguing that the drop chance boosters should be removed. They are also not arguing for a decrease in affinity per enemy level so hard mode doesn't become compulsory for affinity farming in hard Adaro or hard Hydron. 

So why is Kuva being singled out? Why the double standards if their argument is "you should not play hard mode for better rewards"?

Why is the amount you get in normal mode remaining the same as it is in normal mode but increased in hard mode suddenly a compulsory change for hard mode? You would still have the choice of easy time but lower amount vs. harder time but higher reward. That doesn't exist in the current scale, which means that those who stay in normal mode get what they used to but those who go to hard mode get less, in turn removing any form of choice since everything is stacked in favor of normal mode when Kuva is involved: More rewards and a more chill experience.

How is hard mode competing there? How is normal mode not compulsory by the same standards?

As for the elitism part, statements such as "And this is why I see people who chase kuva like I see a drug addict." and "If you are just hoping to get more Kuva per hour, then stick to normal. Thats the very mindset i want far away from hard mode", if serious, are nothing but toxic elitism. That's a purity test argument in which you should only play hard mode for the sake of hard mode even if hard mode makes parts of the game objectively worse for other players and even if an adjustment that improves our experience doesn't affect THEIR experience.

Their way or the high way in other words.

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41 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

You guys are right. Normal mode and hard mode should yield the same amount of Kuva. Since we are playing for fun, let’s make Kuva Floods yield 600+ kuva like Kuva Syphons 🙂 

Too much. 6 Kuva is enough if it's just for fun. And it should also be a random chance rather than a set drop. It's not like you are choosing to go to Kuva Flood/Syphon over other regular Grineer nodes because of a resource unique to it.. You're doing it for the fun, the map and the voice transmissions involved. 

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I fully expect some change in kuva rewards for hard mode. Not sure it will come down to a change from the 100% drop chance booster to a 100% resource booster however. I expect a measure of hesitation on the dev's side and they have, imho, understandable reasons for that. Believe me, while I dislike rivens and the meta they created I really do understand the importance of kuva. Namely whatever other rewards the devs decide to give, kuva is the one thing which will split their player base.

If they give a sufficiently good boost everyone with access to hard mode will be farming it there. Or will want to try to do so. Farming Kuva survival or disruption on hard mode in an efficient fashion will require meta frames and weapons. I expect lots of drama. 

Not enough, or the same as normal, no kuva farming in hard mode obviously, but hey, less drama. And hard mode helene or whatever will become a new leveling node, and plenty of people go on those long endurance runs for the fun of it, so it will still be used. 

I hope you understand that giving more kuva or not is a touchy subject with far-going implications.

 

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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

"Compulsory" means that there is no choice. No option.

Actually it doesn't...

Compulsory:
required; mandatory; obligatory:

In other words... It means expected. Hard Mode is, by design, optional.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

If increasing Kuva for hard mode would make it compulsory for farming Kuva, then it is also compulsory for every other non-set resource due to the drop chance booster though. Even with mods as well thanks to the mod drop chance booster. You'll see how that goes farming Condition Overload in hard Uranus vs normal Uranus.

Actually no... Because every other resource has a chance of dropping in non-set amounts regardless depending on the map in question.

Likewise, Mods drop chance suffers the same condition in that mods always have a chance to drop and you can't predict which mods will...or when. 

Hard Mode as it is currently,( by your own admittance) is going to enjoy 2 different boosters being applied just for going into it... That's a pretty big set of bonuses for what amounts to sortie level mobs.

Missing out on additional Kuva compared to a normal mission is a non-issue.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

So why is Kuva being singled out?

Probably because they have tried to maintain controls on it since it was introduced to keep riven rolling meaningful...I frankly wouldn't have been surprised if Endo had also been controlled as well tbh.

The difference with Kuva being that it's still a heavily used resource.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

As for the elitism part, statements such as "And this is why I see people who chase kuva like I see a drug addict." and "If you are just hoping to get more Kuva per hour, then stick to normal. Thats the very mindset i want far away from hard mode", if serious, are nothing but toxic elitism. That's a purity test argument in which you should only play hard mode for the sake of hard mode even if hard mode makes parts of the game objectively worse for other players and even if an adjustment that improves our experience doesn't affect THEIR experience. Their way or the high way in other words.

I merely see those comments as, at worst, purist...Which makes sense given how long, and why, this mode has been being requested.
That said, it's not endgame (even though many will opt to think of it as such)... it's an optional play mode.

Keeping it optional means keeping its' general value in line with other play modes.
Failing at that makes it compulsory which ultimately defeats the purpose of the mode to begin with...We know what that looks like already as we saw it with Sorties.

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15 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Actually it doesn't...

Compulsory:
required; mandatory; obligatory:

In other words... It means expected. Hard Mode is, by design, optional.

Nope, those 4 words mean that there is no choice. If it is required, mandatory or obligatory it is not optional nor is it expected unless you want to break the rules regarding whatever those words are applied. Thus they are compulsory.

Expected however is optional, with an emphasis on that it would be viewed as best if not skipped i.e expected means that you preferably do it and ignore that it is optional.

I'm sure you've ran across it in several classes over the years where the teacher/professor tells you that something is expected (extra credit work) but not mandatory/required/obligatory/compulsory in order to pass the class/exam.

edit: And if you think the word compulsory and the other 3 words tied to it mean optional. How on earth do you think the acronym OCD ever came into exsistance to describe what it describes. It is not an optional obsession, people must do whatever it is their illness wants them to in order to feel good and stable. It isnt Obsessive Maybe Disorder, Obsessive Optional Disorder or Obsessive Expected Disorder.

edit2: Also, have you never played table top or board games with units that have compulsory movement rules, i.e they are forced to move each turn or under specific conditions?

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2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Actually it doesn't...

Compulsory:
required; mandatory; obligatory:

In other words... It means expected. Hard Mode is, by design, optional.

It is not and will not be optional until enough excess mastery points are added as to completely ignore the 27,000 tied to hard mode and still reach MR30. Anything that contributes mastery is mandatory until then. The moment DE decided to add mastery to the game mode, they signaled that this is an expected step towards completion on the road towards MR30. Arguing if MR matters is not relevant to the argument of what is required for reaching it.

6 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Actually no... Because every other resource has a chance of dropping in non-set amounts regardless depending on the map in question.

Likewise, Mods drop chance suffers the same condition in that mods always have a chance to drop and you can't predict which mods will...or when. 

Doesn't negate that chances still mean more. Any resource with 50% now becomes 100%. It's still more efficient. More so considering that these boosters stack with your own, which further means they will stack with 2x booster weekends. 

5 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Missing out on additional Kuva compared to a normal mission is a non-issue.

To you, it is not. To many others, Kuva is the most important resource in the entire game. The most scare one. The one with stockpiles in the hundreds of thousands that can run dry in 10 minutes. To many, missing out on additional Kuva is an absolute deal-breaker. A non-negotiable deal-break.

10 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Probably because they have tried to maintain controls on it since it was introduced to keep riven rolling meaningful...I frankly wouldn't have been surprised if Endo had also been controlled as well tbh.

The difference with Kuva being that it's still a heavily used resource.

That is best acquired in normal mode with nothing in favor of trying to acquire it on hard mode. No choice there. Why not cut the amount you get in normal mode in half then? This would also solve my problem with normal mode being more efficient.

12 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Failing at that makes it compulsory which ultimately defeats the purpose of the mode to begin with...We know what that looks like already as we saw it with Sorties.

Ironically enough, I see sorties as optional. There is no mastery involved there. 

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Brozime's impressions are in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXyIjlsMWJc

- He confirms that there is in fact a 2x HP/armor/shield Sortie modifier on top of enemy levels.

- Enemies are such heavy tanks that even 199% strength Saryn has trouble dealing with them. Same goes for Mesa. Viable choices are highly reduced.

- Baruuk shines. Other "Tank" frames like Oberon on the other hand have a hard time keeping up with their "normal" builds without investing heavily in survivability rather than ability min-maxing.

- Making the best out of shield gating with decaying dragon keys and shield speed regeneration is very helpful.

- Status wins over crit. 

- Unexpected weapons like the Phage shine while tried-and-true weapons like the Rubico Prime feel useless. In general, status is a lot more important than crit.

- Corpus shields are so high that building magnetic/toxin with status feels mandatory.

- Archwing missions or horrible. The weapons and abilities are simply not designed for such enemy EHP values. Even Earth Archwing missions take a very long time to complete.

- Vay Hek has so much EHP (Level 125 + Sortie modifiers) that people get timed out of missions because they can't kill him on time.

- Not every planet has an emote reward. Uknown if bug, intentional, or simply not implemented. All planet emotes have the same animation.

- Believes leaving the drop tables untouched is a mistake. It incentives clearing a node and not looking back if there's a different node with more/better rewards. Same problem as normal mode with drop table pollution, but amplified and made worse here because of enemy EHP levels. Removing junk such as low Endo and Vitality would suffice.

- Believes all infinite nodes (In a given planet) should have the same relic drop tables so you don't just farm a specific relic in a specific node. This would increase mission selection variety by making it a choice between survival/interception/defense vs the node with X/Y/Z relic. 

- Believes awarded relics should be Radiant relics since there's no boost to Void Traces. Otherwise, normal mode is better for farming relics.

- Reward scaling is terrible as it stands for Kuva.

- Mot is hell.

- Had a good time overall despite rewards. He feels like he had to re-think how he approaches the game, essentially transforming the feel of the game vs. normal mode.

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39 minutes ago, Angwah said:

I fully expect some change in kuva rewards for hard mode. Not sure it will come down to a change from the 100% drop chance booster to a 100% resource booster however. I expect a measure of hesitation on the dev's side and they have, imho, understandable reasons for that. Believe me, while I dislike rivens and the meta they created I really do understand the importance of kuva. Namely whatever other rewards the devs decide to give, kuva is the one thing which will split their player base.

If they give a sufficiently good boost everyone with access to hard mode will be farming it there. Or will want to try to do so. Farming Kuva survival or disruption on hard mode in an efficient fashion will require meta frames and weapons. I expect lots of drama. 

Not enough, or the same as normal, no kuva farming in hard mode obviously, but hey, less drama. And hard mode helene or whatever will become a new leveling node, and plenty of people go on those long endurance runs for the fun of it, so it will still be used. 

I hope you understand that giving more kuva or not is a touchy subject with far-going implications.

 

Then why not cut normal mode Kuva in half? Up until now I had been arguing for more Kuva in hard mode, but if the problem is that there will be drama tied to the current amount being higher, why not reduce the amount in normal mode? Even though I would not be getting more Kuva than what I am getting now, it would still mean hard mode would be getting more. Thus addressing my problem with normal being better.

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Just now, Jarriaga said:

Arguing if MR matters is not relevant to the argument of what is required for reaching it.

Except for the fact that you brought it up and asserted that it makes Hard Mode compulsory....effectively making it relevant.

So, I am obliged to remind you that Mastery Rank has almost no value....and absolutely no value after rank 15.

That's not even an argument...That's a fact.

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Doesn't negate that chances still mean more. Any resource with 50% now becomes 100%. It's still more efficient. More so considering that these boosters stack with your own, which further means they will stack with 2x booster weekends. 

Yes, Increased chances means more chances—That doesn't mean more guarantees though.

...It's how chance works.

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

To you, it is not. To many others, Kuva is the most important resource in the entire game. The most scare one. The one with stockpiles in the hundreds of thousands that can run dry in 10 minutes. To many, missing out on additional Kuva is an absolute deal-breaker. A non-negotiable deal-break.

Then don't do it...Stay out of Hard Mode then.

Kuva didn't even friggin' exist the first time players asked for this mode. You saying you won't play it without additional Kuva won't be a deal breaker.

...Your mask is slipping.

8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That is best acquired in normal mode with nothing in favor of trying to acquire it on hard mode. No choice there. Why not cut the amount you get in normal mode in half then? This would also solve my problem with normal mode being more efficient.

Why do you think you are due more for doing it in hard mode?

Who is being "Toxic" and "Elitist" now exactly?

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Ironically enough, I see sorties as optional. There is no mastery involved there.

Except it isn't if you want to stockpile either rivens or statues.

Likewise it wasn't when you wanted focus affinity Lenses.

DE has made it a point to keep something in Sorties you couldn't easily get elsewhere.

..Making it not that optional if you want those things. 

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9 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Except for the fact that you brought it up and asserted that it makes Hard Mode compulsory....effectively making it relevant.

So, I am obliged to remind you that Mastery Rank has almost no value....and absolutely no value after rank 15.

That's not even an argument...That's a fact.

Doesn't matter if I brought it up. I made it explicitly clear that anything that is required for reaching MR30 is not optional. DE decided to add the mastery. Which brings me to....

9 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Except it isn't if you want to stockpile either rivens or statues.

Likewise it wasn't when you wanted focus affinity Lenses.

DE has made it a point to keep something in Sorties you couldn't easily get elsewhere.

..Making it not that optional if you want those things. 

This shows that if you mean it, you are a hypocrite. You highlight that what you deem as optional/mandatory is whatever you need it to be at that moment. Arguing "Mastery has no value past rank 15" but then concluding that Sorties are mandatory if you want Rivens or statues leaves me thinking that if you are not trolling or playing devil's advocate, then you are a hypocrite as that is a double standard. On either case, I am no longer replying to you. So please feel free to have the last word if you feel like it. 

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20 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Brozime's impressions are in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXyIjlsMWJc

- He confirms that there is in fact a 2x HP/armor/shield Sortie modifier on top of enemy levels.

- Enemies are such heavy tanks that even 199% strength Saryn has trouble dealing with them. Same goes for Mesa. Viable choices are highly reduced.

- Baruuk shines. Other "Tank" frames like Oberon on the other hand have a hard time keeping up with their "normal" builds without investing heavily in survivability rather than ability min-maxing.

- Making the best out of shield gating with decaying dragon keys and shield speed regeneration is very helpful.

- Status wins over crit. 

- Unexpected weapons like the Phage shine while tried-and-true weapons like the Rubico Prime feel useless. In general, status is a lot more important than crit.

- Corpus shields are so high that building magnetic/toxin with status feels mandatory.

- Archwing missions or horrible. The weapons and abilities are simply not designed for such enemy EHP values. Even Earth Archwing missions take a very long time to complete.

- Vay Hek has so much EHP (Level 125 + Sortie modifiers) that people get timed out of missions because they cam't kill him on time.

- Not every planet has an emote reward. Uknown if bug, intentional, or simply not implemented. All planet emotes have the same animation.

- Believes leaving the drop tables untouched is a mistake. It incentives clearing a node and not looking back if there's a different node with more/better rewards. Same problem as normal mode with drop table pollution, but amplified and made worse here because of enemy EHP levels. Removing junk such as low Endo and Vitality would suffice.

- Believes all infinite nodes (In a given planet) should have the same relic drop tables so you don't just farm a specific relic in a specific node. This would increase mission selection variety by making it a choice between survival/interception/defense vs the node with X/Y/Z relic. 

- Believes awarded relics should be Radiant relics since there's no boost to Void Traces. Otherwise, normal mode is better for farming relics.

- Reward scaling is terrible as it stands for Kuva.

- Mot is hell.

- Had a good time overall despite rewards. He feels like he had to re-think how he approaches the game, essentially transforming the feel of the game vs. normal mode.

The fact that you have to approach the game differently is quite promising. This is a test cluster after all so the final product will change due to the feedback and I hope they do listen to the rewards part of it. 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

The fact that you have to approach the game differently is quite promising. This is a test cluster after all so the final product will change due to the feedback and I hope they do listen to the rewards part of it. 

This is all I really want. 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

The fact that you have to approach the game differently is quite promising. This is a test cluster after all so the final product will change due to the feedback and I hope they do listen about the rewards part of it. 

Indeed. It seems the problem of map nuking could be self-corrected here since you may not be able to build your frames that way anymore. At least not without a dedicated team. I feel rather hopeful here.

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2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Lower effort = Lower reward

Higher effort = Higher reward

But for Kuva, we have:

Lower effort = Higher reward

Higher effort = Lower reward

But how this hurts your interests? You get more kuva for lower effort, isn't that in your interest and in the interest of anyone who is interested in farming kuva?

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25 minutes ago, 32768 said:

But how this hurts your interests? You get more kuva for lower effort, isn't that in your interest and in the interest of anyone who is interested in farming kuva?

The baseline hasn't moved. It's set by normal mode, which has not been adjusted in any way, shape or form. There is no change for those playing in normal mode; "lower effort" is just the observation when compared to hard mode rather than a new baseline.

If you farm on normal mode and then move on to hard mode, you get less Kuva per minute than you used to in normal mode. You have to put in more effort for the same reward as before, which in this case means a lower reward in comparison vs. time investment in the same mission while in normal. This means that if you care about Kuva, hard mode is worse than normal and you have to choose between a higher challenge --or-- Kuva farming. 

Those who farm Condition Overload in Uranus now get more changes to get the mod thanks to the mod drop chance booster. Those players don't have to choose between farming and challenge. They get both.

By the same token, players who farm Kuva should not have to choose between the two. You'll see desolated hard mode Kuva nodes otherwise by there being little reason to choose said nodes on hard over normal. Those who play for the fun of it will still play for the fun of it even if they get zero Kuva, but those people are unlikely to be playing Kuva nodes to begin with.

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Brozime's impression is indeed quite hopeful. Still work to be done, but looking good.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Then why not cut normal mode Kuva in half? Up until now I had been arguing for more Kuva in hard mode, but if the problem is that there will be drama tied to the current amount being higher, why not reduce the amount in normal mode? Even though I would not be getting more Kuva than what I am getting now, it would still mean hard mode would be getting more. Thus addressing my problem with normal being better.

Well, I would rather they give more kuva in hard mode than reduce it in normal. But I hope the test cluster gives them a good idea as to how much extra they can put on it without making it so good farming it there becomes overwhelmingly better.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Brozime's impression is indeed quite hopeful. Still work to be done, but looking good.

I'm actually very eager to solo fight the Ropalolyst in hard mode. That is going to take some effort.

3 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Well, I would rather they give more kuva in hard mode than reduce it in normal. But I hope the test cluster gives them a good idea as to how much extra they can put on it without making it so good farming it there becomes overwhelmingly better.

Ideally, any amount that makes it feel like the same ratio of Kuva per minute would suffice. But I think the point of contention here is that the amount of Kuva you need per roll (Once maxed) remains the same, so any increase means being able to roll more Rivens. On top of that, boosters stack. So even if increased to, say, 1.45X, that means 2.9x with a booster, 5.8x during a double resource weekend with a booster, and 11.6x when your Smeeta happens to proc. 

I think that's something DE don't want. But there's no way around it unless they can make peace with desolated hard mode Kuva missions.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Ideally, any amount that makes it feel like the same ratio of Kuva per minute would suffice. But I think the point of contention here is that the amount of Kuva you need per roll (Once maxed) remains the same, so any increase means being able to roll more Rivens. On top of that, boosters stack. So even if increased to, say, 1.45X, that means 2.9x with a booster, 5.8x during a double resource weekend with a booster, and 11.6x when your Smeeta happens to proc. 

I think that's something DE don't want. But there's no way around it unless they can make peace with desolated hard mode Kuva missions.

Yes, I believe I argued that point before. It is the outliers with the resource boosters and smeeta's who will apply additional multipliers on to any increase the devs put in there.

I know, cause I'm using those myself 😉 

However, there are actually ways around those, like the Scarlet Spear currency you got after finishing a wave. Those were unaffected by boosters of any kind, so they could make a Steel Path currency and allow you to buy kuva and whatever else they want with Teshin.

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