What we know of hard mode

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, kyori said:

Really? This again? DE removed such thing from Railjack enemies and now it is really in hard mode?

Inconsistency is the only consistency.

Aside from the fact the steel path is its own thing, I somewhat doubt that even with Modifiers, it'll be anywhere near the same level as Railjack was at launch.

Seriously, the Officers had more EHP than the Hydrolyst, including the limbs.

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

....so the complaints of "hard mode isnt rewarding enough" have already begun. Next round of complaints..."Hard mode isnt fair! im being forced to play because of mastery. Please nerf enemy damage and armour" Then- "hard mode isnt content. DE is horrible and lazy"
 

Kuva is the most important resource in the entire game and hard mode is mandatory for progression.

What do you propose? I've asked you before what you consider for a fair hard mode Kuva boost to be only to dance around the question due to your cognitive dissonance rejecting any form of Kuva increment even if it means killing entire game modes for not doing so.

I am one of those defending the 2x armor and shield multiplier, but I guess that's an inconvenient thing for you to notice, isn't it? Just as it is inconvenient that most posts here are OK with that increment in enemy EHP and that no one here has a problem with the energy pad cooldowns.

There's regular non-Kuva survival and regular non-Kuva disruption. Those modes will be played just fine in hard mode. Now Kuva modes, in which the only difference between those and the normal modes is the Kuva? Why would you choose hard mode there? You have no answer for that without willingly ignoring historical examples.

The least thing DE can do is give you a reason not to look back unless you actually want a chill time in normal. That's the only advantage normal should have over hard. Otherwise you are literally being rewarded for taking the easy way out. There is no choice when the easy option is the better option.

[PookieNumnums]

Good rewards are always good. Better rewards are better. 

I personally feel like there wouldnt be a problem if it did have better rewards other than emotes and decorations of the planets. 

Tbh, it should give 3x the mastery. Less than 30k really isnt all that much. Its basically two full loadouts worth, or less if you count sentinels. 

If i was going to add any rewards in out of my dream list, it would be restore pad decorations blueprints, and clan/alliance emblem glyphs. OR even better, the large clan and alliance emblem decorations from back on the solar rail conflict tiles. Uwu. I really want those. 

Maybe some nifty operator buff consumables. Permananet ones. Like +2% amp dmg or crit or status or whatever. Or maybe even +1% to active focus attributes. Farmable. Low drop chance of course. 

 

R E P L A Y A B I L I T Y T H O

[PookieNumnums]

14 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Kuva is the most important resource in the entire game and hard mode is mandatory for progression.

What do you propose? I've asked you before what you consider for a fair hard mode Kuva boost to be only to dance around the question due to your cognitive dissonance rejecting any form of Kuva increment even if it means killing entire game modes for not doing so.

I am one of those OK with the 2x armor and shield multiplier, but I guess that's an inconvenient thing to notice. For you, isn't it? Just as it is inconvenient that most posts here are OK with that increment in enemy EHP.

There's regular non-Kuva survival and regular non-Kuva disruption. Those modes will be played just fine in hard mode. Now Kuva modes, in which the only difference between those and the normal modes is the Kuva? Why would you choose hard mode there? You have no answer for that without willingly ignoring historical examples.

The least thing DE can do is give you a reason not to look back unless you actually want a chill time in normal. That's the only advantage normal should have over hard. Otherwise you are literally being rewarded for taking the easy way out. There is no choice when the easy option is the better option.

Why not vitus essence so you can go buy it from le arbies, the kuva i mean. 

Wait, do they even still sell it? 

[Hypernaut1]

12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Kuva is the most important resource in the entire game and hard mode is mandatory for progression.

What do you propose? I've asked you before what you consider for a fair hard mode Kuva boost to be only to dance around the question due to your cognitive dissonance rejecting any form of Kuva increment even if it means killing entire game modes for not doing so.

I am one of those OK with the 2x armor and shield multiplier, but I guess that's an inconvenient thing to notice. For you, isn't it? Just as it is inconvenient that most posts here are OK with that increment in enemy EHP.

There's regular non-Kuva survival and regular non-Kuva disruption. Those modes will be played just fine in hard mode. Now Kuva modes, in which the only difference between those and the normal modes is the Kuva? Why would you choose hard mode there? You have no answer for that without willingly ignoring historical examples.

 

whatever amount of Kuva that cant be exploited and gives relatively the same output per hour.

DE has an idea of how much Kiva they want people to gain over a session, Hard mode shouldnt break that. +100 enemies may provide a bit more resistance, but i doubt it'll slow meta builds that much from getting Kuva. If they simply double the Kuva, it could potentially become an OP Kuba farming node. I'm sure DE would be fine with people sticking to normal if they are looking for efficiency. 

I WOULD not choose hardmode Kuva survival if i was looking to maximize my Kuva farm. How is that a hard concept to grasp? If, for fun, i wanted to run a 100+ survival, while also getting some Kuva- then i would play it, knowing fully well that im doing it for fun first, rewards second. In that instance, im ok with getting less kuva per 20 minutes because i was looking for the adrenaline rush more than maxing Kuva. 

i dont think the goal of the mode is make everyone migrate from normal to only playing hard. The goal is to give players an option. Some will play it once, others will opt to play it any chance they get simply because they enjoy it more. 

[PookieNumnums]

2 hours ago, kyori said:

Really? This again? DE removed such thing from Railjack enemies and now it is really in hard mode?

Inconsistency is the only consistency.

They just needed an appropriate place to put it i guess. 

Im sure meta stonks will release instagib loadout videos in the coming week or two. 

Then it will be back to murderbaby mode. 

[Jarriaga]

Just now, PookieNumnums said:

Why not vitus essence so you can go buy it from le arbies, the kuva i mean. 

Wait, do they even still sell it? 

They still sell Kuva, but so far it seems that Arbitrations are not part of hard mode. So no booster there.

And Arbitrations are slower for Kuva than other modes in general. 35,000 Kuva is 100 Vitus (With 5,000 Kuva left to spare).

[Angwah]

Ok, how about something like this: add an additional vitus essence for each reward you got after concluding the mission, or at least a chance of getting one, which you'll find in your mailbox after the mission. So, a bit like the scarlet spear currency and unaffected by any sort of booster.

A straight up built-in resource booster would double kuva gain which may be too much. You may say can't get 35K kuva per hour, but with resource boosters, smeeta's and a good squad you actually can. 

 

[Jarriaga]

8 minutes ago, Angwah said:

 You may say can't get 35K kuva per hour, but with resource boosters, smeeta's and a good squad you actually can.

A good squad is not going to decrease the timer between rounds in Kuva Survival.

A good squad is not going to populate additional Kuva Siphon/Flood nodes once you clear them out for that hour.

A good quad is not going to address Demolishers getting stuck in their way to conduits, giving you no choice but to hunt them out or wait for the timer to expire.

A good squad is not going to address Demolishers spawning on top of Conduits and exploding in seconds.

A smeeta is nothing you can't rely on. You can spend entire consecutive missions without seeing the 2x buff.

A good squad is not going to get 100 Vitus in an hour even with a booster in Excavation.

If you have a single video in which this has been done, with said video not being recorded during a 2x Resource weekend (4x with your own booster) then please share it so I can change my mind and be less cynical about it by accepting that I suck at the game.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

23 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Kuva is the most important resource in the entire game and hard mode is mandatory for progression.

[Jarriaga]

Just now, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

There's 27,000 mastery involved. That's the equivalent of 9 weapons worth of mastery. The moment DE made that decision they signaled that it is no longer a choice, but an expected step towards progression and completion.

You're free to mock that thought. You might as well say that any game mode that offers nothing but mastery is optional.

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

whatever amount of Kuva that cant be exploited and gives relatively the same output per hour.

DE has an idea of how much Kiva they want people to gain over a session, Hard mode shouldnt break that. +100 enemies may provide a bit more resistance, but i doubt it'll slow meta builds that much from getting Kuva. If they simply double the Kuva, it could potentially become an OP Kuba farming node. I'm sure DE would be fine with people sticking to normal if they are looking for efficiency. 

I WOULD not choose hardmode Kuva survival if i was looking to maximize my Kuva farm. How is that a hard concept to grasp? If, for fun, i wanted to run a 100+ survival, while also getting some Kuva- then i would play it, knowing fully well that im doing it for fun first, rewards second. In that instance, im ok with getting less kuva per 20 minutes because i was looking for the adrenaline rush more than maxing Kuva. 

i dont think the goal of the mode is make everyone migrate from normal to only playing hard. The goal is to give players an option. Some will play it once, others will opt to play it any chance they get simply because they enjoy it more. 

I'd say 2x kuva from rotation rewards, siphons and floods. 3x Kuva from survival and disruption.

2x due to the simply higher threat and slower TTK, though no icreased risk towards the objective.

3x for survival and disruption because the increased levels are a direct massive threat towards harvesters that are fairly weak and demos in disruption already have good scaling based on levels in addition to the 2x armor of steel path.

For siphons and floods it depends if the steel path missions will have higher density and require more kills in exterminate and so on. This also applies to kuva survival, if the density is higher right from the start a higher reward than x3 may be appropriate due to an even higher risk for harvesters compared to snooze-fest-cant-fail-normal.

[Hypernaut1]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd say 2x kuva from rotation rewards, siphons and floods. 3x Kuva from survival and disruption.

2x due to the simply higher threat and slower TTK, though no icreased risk towards the objective.

3x for survival and disruption because the increased levels are a direct massive threat towards harvesters that are fairly weak and demos in disruption already have good scaling based on levels in addition to the 2x armor of steel path.

For siphons and floods it depends if the steel path missions will have higher density and require more kills in exterminate and so on. This also applies to kuva survival, if the density is higher right from the start a higher reward than x3 may be appropriate due to an even higher risk for harvesters compared to snooze-fest-cant-fail-normal.

as long as those nodes arent so lucrative they become the default spot to farm. I dont think DE intends for people to abandon the regular starchart for farming. 

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

as long as those nodes arent so lucrative they become the default spot to farm. I dont think DE intends for people to abandon the regular starchart for farming. 

It should gradually progress. People should eventually leave normal, otherwise it is 100% pointless to introduce a hard mode to a game. There is no reason for DE to want people to still go to normal to farm since both star charts are exactly the same. If normal maps were unique compared to hard mode it would be one thing since DE would want people to keep experiencing it all, but that isnt the case.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

There's 27,000 mastery involved. That's the equivalent of 9 weapons worth of mastery. The moment DE made that decision they signaled that it is no longer a choice, but an expected step towards progression and completion.

You're free to mock that thought. You might as well say that any game mode that offers nothing but mastery is optional.

Mastery is pointless beyond MR18. Besides, the only reason they're sticking mastery in the mode is so people freak out and think they're forced to do it. FOMO seems to make people go crazy for some odd reason.

And in all honesty, I was more laughing at your kuva comment. That really gave me a chuckle, thanks for that 😂

[Hypernaut1]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

It should gradually progress. People should eventually leave normal, otherwise it is 100% pointless to introduce a hard mode to a game. There is no reason for DE to want people to still go to normal to farm since both star charts are exactly the same. If normal maps were unique compared to hard mode it would be one thing since DE would want people to keep experiencing it all, but that isnt the case.

ok. we will see

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

ok. we will see

I mean, if DE releases future content, their hard work and design will not go unnoticed or avoided just because people dont go back to normal, since it will be available in hard mode too. So wanting people to still play normal seems illogical when the assets are 100% the same between the two.

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Mastery is pointless beyond MR18. Besides, the only reason they're sticking mastery in the mode is so people freak out and think they're forced to do it. FOMO seems to make people go crazy for some odd reason.

And in all honesty, I was more laughing at your kuva comment. That really gave me a chuckle, thanks for that 😂

Kuva is the only resource we can grind endlessly and make use of constantly, so I think he's 100% spot on that it is the most important resource in the game.

[Jarriaga]

16 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

whatever amount of Kuva that cant be exploited and gives relatively the same output per hour.

And what is that? 1.3x? 1.45x? Whatever it is, it certainly isn't 1x, which is what we currently have.

18 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

DE has an idea of how much Kiva they want people to gain over a session, Hard mode shouldnt break that. +100 enemies may provide a bit more resistance, but i doubt it'll slow meta builds that much from getting Kuva. 

The flaw with your argument here is that you are failing to acknowledge that the current rate punishes everyone, meta or not. I don't do meta builds. I find them to be boring because they focus on doing just 1 thing over and over. I am a Khora main and I actively avoid Accumulating Whipclaw unless I'm maxing a weapon in ESO.

21 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If they simply double the Kuva, it could potentially become an OP Kuba farming node.

You make it sound like there are alternatives that go above 35,000 per hour, which is simply not true. Kuva nodes work on timers. There's only so much Kuva you can get under a standard playing session unless the stars align in Kuva Disruption so all Demolishers spawn in convenient places and the Smeeta gives you nothing but the 2x buff at all times. The absolute best possible scenario is so improbable that is not used as baseline.

23 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm sure DE would be fine with people sticking to normal if they are looking for efficiency. 

That would make WF the only loot-based game ever that tells you "Go back to normal; it's better". You don't seem to have an issue with all other resources getting boosted in hard mode. Why do you hate it so much as to single it out?

25 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I WOULD not choose hardmode Kuva survival if i was looking to maximize my Kuva farm. How is that a hard concept to grasp?

I didn't ask you what you would do. I asked you how you would incentivize me for doing so beyond fun, as I can get more fun in Mot survival. That's a question that has to be addressed because at the end of the day people will compare normal vs hard by virtue of WF being a looter. You seem to have a hard time grasping that concept. Or maybe you do but your cognitive dissonance doesn't let you accept it and you would rather everyone else change their minds. It's as futile as expecting for fans of racing simulators to reject standard transmission.

28 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i dont think the goal of the mode is make everyone migrate from normal to only playing hard. The goal is to give players an option.

Again: There's 27,000 mastery involved. That's the equivalent of 9 weapons worth of mastery. The moment DE made that decision they signaled that it is no longer a choice, but an expected step towards progression and completion. While you are pursuing that mastery, you will be getting significantly less Kuva than you used to in normal mode while you will be getting more of the rest. You are literally being punished for committing to hard mode in that particular case. I don't know of a single other game that does that and while being well-received. Name one if you do.

 

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Again: There's 27,000 mastery involved. That's the equivalent of 9 weapons worth of mastery. The moment DE made that decision they signaled that it is no longer a choice, but an expected step towards progression and completion. While you are pursuing that mastery, you will be getting significantly less Kuva than you used to in normal mode while you will be getting more of the rest. You are literally being punished for committing to hard mode in that particular case. I don't know of a single other game that does that and while being well-received. Name one if you do.

 

see. This right here is why DE needs to limit what they put in hard mode. You are justifying your complaining because of Mastery. If they make hard mode the #1 place to play, players will just continue to complain about everything until its easy. If the rumors of 2x armor is true- people are going to complain and say "of they didnt want me to do it, it shouldnt give mastery" So there goes any true experimenting with hard mode- because now players feel like they have to complete it easily. 

 

[Jarriaga]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Mastery is pointless beyond MR18.

Doesn't matter if you feel it's pointless. If the point is completion, it is mandatory. Completion makes no exceptions. 

And I have a hard time believing mastery is pointless. 

MR18 = 36 mod points with a potato after forma, 1,000 void trace reserves.

MR29 = 58 mod points with a potato after forma, 1,550 void trace reserves. 

The QoL benefits exist all the way to MR30.

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Besides, the only reason they're sticking mastery in the mode is so people freak out and think they're forced to do it. FOMO seems to make people go crazy for some odd reason.

It works though. That's why it's not optional. What is optional doesn't give you that feeling.

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

And in all honesty, I was more laughing at your kuva comment. That really gave me a chuckle, thanks for that 😂

I can't think of another resource as scare and as valuable as Kuva. You don't use it in set amounts. I've invested over 500,000 Kuva in individual Riven mods without getting the buffs I wanted for said weapon. It's the only thing that you can never have enough of. I have millions of nano spores and alloy plates, yet currently only 1400 Kuva.

 

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

see. This right here is why DE needs to limit what they put in hard mode. You are justifying your complaining because of Mastery.

I am not. Mastery has nothing to do with resource rate. I am just addressing your comment that it is "optional", which as a statement is incompatible with game completion thanks to DE's decision to include mastery. It literally means that you lose on progression if you choose to ignore it, so you are forced to go through hard mode at least once and experience significant Kuva losses while you're at it until you're done with the mode, and even then if you decide to stay. 

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If they make hard mode the #1 place to play, players will just continue to complain about everything until its easy. 

And I will fight with those players the same way I fought them when Fortuna's week one difficulty was nerfed, when Arbitrations were nerfed, or like in this thread where I defended the 2x enemy armor and shield modifier. Why is that so inconvenient for you to notice? Why can't both things exist at once according to you?

9 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If the rumors of 2x armor is true- people are going to complain and say "of they didnt want me to do it, it shouldnt give mastery" So there goes any true experimenting with hard mode- because now players feel like they have to complete it easily. 

1) Not a rumor. Many people have noticed it including some users in this thread who happened to be on Reb's stream, so they do have access to hard mode.

2) Players expecting hard mode to be easy is not a reasonable expectation in any way, shape or form. If we go by the thread in which keys were requested, there were 5300 requests, or 11% of Steam's average player number for the last 30 days. The number of people who dedicate themselves to the game to the point of unlocking Arbitrations is extremely low. Those people want a higher challenge by default or they wouldn't bother. That is not incompatible with expecting for said increased challenge to be properly compensated for choosing to take the harder path.

At this point I'm starting to believe you are either trolling or playing devil's advocate, so I won't be replying to you again until you can name just one loot-based game that punishes you for taking the harder path while still remaining well-received.

[r00tsyst3m]

40 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

A good squad is not going to decrease the timer between rounds in Kuva Survival.

A good squad is not going to populate additional Kuva Siphon/Flood nodes once you clear them out for that hour.

A good quad is not going to address Demolishers getting stuck in their way to conduits, giving you no choice but to hunt them out or wait for the timer to expire.

A good squad is not going to address Demolishers spawning on top of Conduits and exploding in seconds.

A smeeta is nothing you can't rely on. You can spend entire consecutive missions without seeing the 2x buff.

A good squad is not going to get 100 Vitus in an hour even with a booster in Excavation.

If you have a single video in which this has been done, with said video not being recorded during a 2x Resource weekend (4x with your own booster) then please share it so I can change my mind and be less cynical about it by accepting that I suck at the game.

just stop doing excav then play defense , on defense u can got 100-260 vitus per hours (40k-104k kuva)

 

https://imgur.com/a/pETYqq2

[SneakyErvin]

Aslong as MR rewards void trace storage, mod capacity on fresh frames and loadout slots it will always have a point to it for QoL, which makes things like the upcoming steel path far from optional. Especially give the amount of mastery and that it involves no hazzle around leveling or crafting things.

[Jarriaga]

8 minutes ago, r00tsyst3m said:

just stop doing excav then play defense , on defense u can got 100-260 vitus per hours (40k-104k kuva)

https://imgur.com/a/pETYqq2

I said video, not a picture.