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What we know of hard mode


Jarriaga

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

If it is proven false tomorrow, then fine, it becomes non-optional. However... we have no actual evidence it will.

You are right that we don't have concrete evidence. What we do know is that we are definitively hitting MR30 this year. Let's make count:

- Current MR needed for MR30 (Non-founder): 126,499

- Hard mode: 27,051

- 3 Prime frames and their weapons left for this year: 36,000

- Broken frame with just 1 weapon assumed: 9,000

- The next frame after broken frame, assumed with 1 weapon (Because DE won't let the year pass with just 2 new frames): 9,000

- Command Intrinsics: 15,000

- Late 2020 main expansion. On average for the past 4 years, that means at least 40,000 mastery on the conservative side.

Total amount of mastery to be introduced this year: 136,051. Even if we take Command out of the picture, the remaining amount (121,051) is so close that even 2 new weapons outside the ones expected with new frames will fill that out. MR30 is this year.

Which brings me to the next point:

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

DE have not stated that's going to happen, and there's as much reason to believe it'll be as pointless as MR's 17-29, except perhaps a particularly shiny trophy of some sort with no gameplay effects.

If that is what happens, it will be such an underwhelming and disappointing build-up towards MR30 over 7 years that it will most likely result in the biggest backlash DE have ever seen. That build-up and anticipation is what pushes towards farming all the mastery you can, the legendary MR30 mystery. The pinnacle. The summit. The ultimate goal as there is no such thing as MR31. 

Yes, you can argue that it's players setting themselves up for disappointment and that having such a build-up for years and years sets expectations and standards that are impossible for DE to meet, but just a badge or a trophy will only serve to kill any motivation to pursue a higher MR rank beyond QoL for mostly everyone else. There will be no more mystery at that point. Players will know for sure from the get-go if the grind is worth it, so DE will have to prepare something that makes people say "Yeah, that is worth the grind" be it a weapon, a game mode, a special ability or an item, whatever it is, it will have to be something more than just a trophy.

So unless you then wish to present the argument that whatever it is that hides behind MR30 is optional, anything that gives mastery is not optional.  At least not until enough excess mastery is made available in the future as to completely ignore the 27,051 tied to this mode and still be able to hit MR30.

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13 minutes ago, Talinthis said:

can you do hard mode plains? that would be the ultimate bonus since fish and gems are affected by resource drop chance booster. i vote no though since that sounds too useful to ever exist.

Yes. You even have a 6th bounty tier.

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1 minute ago, kevoisvevo said:

Lmao who was the dumbass at the design board at DE headquarters who thought it's okay to give 200 kuva and 400 Endo for lvl 100+ enhanced armor and enhanced shield enemies.

Most likely a new drop table hasn't been integrated yet, as it is work in progress.

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Just now, Jarriaga said:

Reb said they won't adjust drop tables.

I have a cynical comment about that and a pragmatical one.

I will go with the pragmatical one : DE has released broken content on mathematical values before, and they will most likely release it again. If they do not tweak the drop tables, they will risk another major waste of development resources.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

You are right that we don't have concrete evidence. What we do know is that we are definitively hitting MR30 this year. Let's make count:

- Current MR needed for MR30 (Non-founder): 126,499

- Hard mode: 27,051

- 3 Prime frames and their weapons left for this year: 36,000

- Broken frame with just 1 weapon assumed: 9,000

- The next frame after broken frame, assumed with 1 weapon (Because DE won't let the year pass with just 2 new frames): 9,000

- Command Intrinsics: 15,000

- Late 2020 main expansion. On average for the past 4 years, that means at least 40,000 mastery on the conservative side.

Total amount of mastery to be introduced this year: 136,051. Even if we take Command out of the picture, the remaining amount (121,051) is so close that even 2 new weapons outside the ones expected with new frames will fill that out. MR30 is this year.

Which brings me to the next point:

If that is what happens, it will be such an underwhelming and disappointing build-up towards MR30 over 7 years that it will most likely result in the biggest backlash DE have ever seen. That build-p and anticipation is what pushes towards farming all the mastery you can, the legendary MR30 mystery. Yes, you can argue that it's players setting themselves up for disappointment and that having such a build-up for years and years sets expectations and standards that are impossible for DE to meet, but just a badge or a trophy will only serve to kill any motivation to pursue a higher MR rank beyond QoL. They will have to prepare something that make people say "Yeah, that is worth the grind". 

Nevertheless... this is all speculation, and therefore ultimately baseless. And still besides the point.

Unless there's a gameplay-altering item beyond the existing conveniences (i.e. number of void traces etc) locked behind MR 30, critical story details, a tile set, whatever, then it's still optional.

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3 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I have a cynical comment about that and a pragmatical one.

I will go with the pragmatical one : DE has released broken content on mathematical values before, and they will most likely release it again. If they do not tweak the drop tables, they will risk another major waste of development resources.

'Major waste'?

Aside from Teshin's introduction speech and maybe the animations for the emotes, this is all using existing assets and features. It's literally a level boost, an innate booster and an armour/shield enhancement modifier on existing content.

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

'Major waste'?

Aside from Teshin's introduction speech and maybe the animations for the emotes, this is all using existing assets and features. It's literally a level boost, an innate booster and an armour/shield enhancement modifier on existing content.


Do you know many resources have been allocated to the task?

Saying that it "reuses" assets is simplifying it to a very basic view point, when the reality is that from the pitch to the current test, it has been taken at least weeks worth of resources.

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6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Nevertheless... this is all speculation, and therefore ultimately baseless. And still besides the point.

Unless there's a gameplay-altering item beyond the existing conveniences (i.e. number of void traces etc) locked behind MR 30, critical story details, a tile set, whatever, then it's still optional.

Which is why I edited my post to add this:

17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

So unless you then wish to present the argument that whatever it is that hides behind MR30 is optional, anything that gives mastery is not optional.  At least not until enough excess mastery is made available in the future as to completely ignore the 27,051 tied to this mode and still be able to hit MR30.

So just bookmark that post and we'll see who was right in a few months.

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12 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I have a cynical comment about that and a pragmatical one.

I will go with the pragmatical one : DE has released broken content on mathematical values before, and they will most likely release it again. If they do not tweak the drop tables, they will risk another major waste of development resources.

My only problem with it so far is Kuva scaling:

Kuva Disruption starting at level 140 with a 2x armor and shield modifier for Demolishers and still only getting 350 Kuva per C rotation is a raw deal that will only serve to push me back to normal mode when Kuva is involved. 

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2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:


Do you know many resources have been allocated to the task?

Saying that it "reuses" assets is simplifying it to a very basic view point, when the reality is that from the pitch to the current test, it has been taken at least weeks worth of resources.

Obviously, it's more than just a lick of polish. But weeks worth of resources is... well, not a major waste of resources. A few weeks is pretty much the low-end of the devtime spectrum.

A major waste would be something like not continuing to iterate on Railjack, because that by comparison took between two and three years worth of resources and, if that Leyou document is to be believed, had a negative impact on most if not all of the content delivered between the start of development and release.

6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Which is why I edited my post to add this:

So just bookmark that post and we'll see who was right in a few months.

Seems petty to me, but ok.

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Just now, Loza03 said:

Obviously, it's more than just a lick of polish. But weeks worth of resources is... well, not a major waste of resources. A few weeks is pretty much the low-end of the devtime spectrum.

 

4 weeks is major loss in my book, especially with the current state of affairs. Hell couple of years ago you could push 1-2 content updates for most free to play games (including stuff like mobas, mobile games and such).

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Just now, phoenix1992 said:

4 weeks is major loss in my book, especially with the current state of affairs. Hell couple of years ago you could push 1-2 content updates for most free to play games (including stuff like mobas, mobile games and such).

Again, a 'major' waste would correspond with a 'major' update, which this isn't. So, several months or years of devtime. It might be significant, but not major, at least by my books.

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37 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

4 weeks is major loss in my book, especially with the current state of affairs. Hell couple of years ago you could push 1-2 content updates for most free to play games (including stuff like mobas, mobile games and such).

Why people have to be so anal about them doing something for the game?

Hard mode is already in game in form of sorties, it's already there, but there is no button in UI to start "a sortie" in a location of choice. They added the button, that's it, now people can play "sorties" on Earth or Mercury, so those tilesets are playable again, maybe a person or two will play on Venus or Mars now instead of it being forsaken for the eternity after you level up your gun to level 2 and never come back to those planets.

Define "loss". Does that mean DE didn't work on your greatest idea of all times exclusively abandoning everything else?

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4 minutes ago, 32768 said:

Why people have to be so anal about them doing something for the game?

Hard mode is already in game in form of sorties, it's already there, but there is no button in UI to start "a sortie" in a location of choice. They added the button, that's it, now people can play "sorties" on Earth or Mercury, so those tilesets are playable again, maybe a person or two will play on Venus or Mars now instead of it being forsaken for the eternity after you level up your gun to level 2 and never come back to those planets.

Define "loss". Does that mean DE didn't work on your greatest idea of all times exclusively abandoning everything else?


I am sorry, but I am not a tag in a specific off brand youtube.

However, I do find it a bit... mean that you either purposefully or not cherry picked the last part of the chain and put words in my mouth.

What you quoted was in reference to the information, that currently there are no plans to change the Loot tables. If you have read trough the information provided by OP the "hard mode" will give higher Mods and base resources + a bit higher MR goal post. Supposedly Reb has stated that currently there are no plans to change the base rewards - be it relics, endo or creds.

What my point was that if no such changes occur, the mode will be abounded fast by the player base, which would be "major loss of development time". If you consider this "anal", I am not sure you would even want to see any feedback topic.

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7 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:


I am sorry, but I am not a tag in a specific off brand youtube.

However, I do find it a bit... mean that you either purposefully or not cherry picked the last part of the chain and put words in my mouth.

What you quoted was in reference to the information, that currently there are no plans to change the Loot tables. If you have read trough the information provided by OP the "hard mode" will give higher Mods and base resources + a bit higher MR goal post. Supposedly Reb has stated that currently there are no plans to change the base rewards - be it relics, endo or creds.

What my point was that if no such changes occur, the mode will be abounded fast by the player base, which would be "major loss of development time". If you consider this "anal", I am not sure you would even want to see any feedback topic.

Let me repeat this again: it's already in the game, but there is no button in UI to start higher level mission in location of choice. Just pause for a minute and let this sink.

Now, no one asked them to redo the game completely, they have been asked for a button in UI, they (supposedly) delivered a button in UI. Therefore they delivered what they have been asked for and what they promised - this is amazing. If you don't like "rewards" - just don't press the button, it's that simple.

You know, people who asked for this are probably have 500k+ endo already and they don't need more of this sh-t, so it's not like anyone who were asking for it is going to be disappointed with "rewards". Nonetheless, if DE want to change rewards in some way - they can always do that later.

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Seriously people, just hear yourselves talk. 

"Oh noes, it gives mastery! Now it is no longer optional content! I am forced to play it! This is bad! Total failure!"

"Oh noes, to get kuva I am forced to play normal mode! This is bad! Total failure!"

And more than one person is saying these two things at the same time... Just... wow...

Ok, now, it's still in the test cluster, so adjustments may follow, but lets be real here, just because you choose to farm kuva in normal mode, because efficiency uber alles, does not mean Steel Path is 'DOA'. Ok, fine, we get it, kuva is the only thing that matters. You got all weapons, mods and frames, everything is max rank and forma'd. You only do sorties for rivens, farm kuva to reroll rivens and open relics for plat, presumably to buy resource boosters to get more kuva. For you this game has been reduced to rivens and kuva, and unless the newest thing isn't giving moar kuva, it's just a distraction you don't care about.

Eh, well, who knows, they might still increase the kuva rate to the point that Steel Path becomes the most efficient kuva farming place, because, really, that is what you are asking for, isn't it? Wouldn't hold my breath, you know as I doubt the intent is to eclipse kuva siphons or floods, just like it won't be giving more endo than arbitrations.

Anyway. Plenty of us, the vast majority I believe, will be having fun with it and can find a use for more affinity, better drop rates and tougher opponents.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Wouldn't hold my breath, you know as I doubt the intent is to eclipse kuva siphons or floods

You do realize that hard mode has Kuva Siphons and Floods, don't you?

7 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Anyway. Plenty of us, the vast majority I believe, will be having fun with it and can find a use for more affinity, better drop rates and tougher opponents.

So will I when I'm not farming Kuva, as I have stated several times here how I am mostly happy with the game mode. It just has what I think is a fatal drawback that prevents from from permanently leaving the hard mode toggle on as I do in other games that give me a reason to never look back. This is the first loot-based game I've played that wants you to go back.

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5 minutes ago, 32768 said:

Let me repeat this again: it's already in the game, but there is no button in UI to start higher level mission in location of choice. Just pause for a minute and let this sink.

 


Did you even read what hard mode is currently?

+100 modifier x2 armor values, it is not the same as you punching into simulacrum and setting 105 earth enemies. Did you read the OP?

8 minutes ago, 32768 said:

Now, no one asked them to redo the game completely, they have been asked for a button in UI, they (supposedly) delivered a button in UI. Therefore they delivered what they have been asked for and what they promised - this is amazing. If you don't like "rewards" - just don't press the button, it's that simple.

 

It is not just a button, if it was there would be no point of test cluster.

Your example is as big brain as saying that SO and ESO should have the same reward pool, as you don't "need to" do ESO.  Jesus, the big brain examples of "you don't need to do anything".

Guess what 4head, i don't need to do anything. Nothing is mandatory, but with less incentiveise to do certain content, it will just become another dead meme

Just like Salvage (it is just a button to phase into already existing mode!).
Just like Arenas (it is just a button to phase you in a old conclave map!)
Just like Defection (hey at least it is unique on mechanical level)
Just like most AW maps.
Just like what happens once you complete the weapons from the Granum Void and Protea (if you have not done so).

But hey - I don't have to do any of those, even if they are on NW rotation they are purely optional (since NW gives major surplus). That means that I should just ignore it?

Or alternatively, we can look at mods like ESO, Disruption, Arbitration and Kuva survival - relatively recent additions, yet provide reasons to play outside of "it was on the map, I clicked on it" (hilariously enough they also use old assets for the most part).

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15 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

You do realize that hard mode has Kuva Siphons and Floods, don't you?

So will I when I'm not farming Kuva, as I have stated several times here how I am mostly happy with the game mode.

Is it bugged or playable? When do you think they could ship it?

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1 hour ago, 32768 said:

Is it bugged or playable? When do you think they could ship it?

I am sadly not in the test cluster. I am basing my opinion on watching streams from those who are. Kuva missions are not bugged. The enemies scale normally with +100, but they award the same amount of Kuva as in normal mode. 

I haven't seen bugs during Streams that are not also present in normal mode, only some placeholder labels.

I think It will be ready to ship next week.

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