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Is DE starting to wake up?


VenomousValentine

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So the steel path interests me, but what interests me MORE is the fact that they have said this is a step towards end game and not to be conflated with endgame itself, which reads to me as "we know the steel path is artificial difficulty for now, but enjoy this while we make actual end game content."

So to me, combining the steel path with the addition of rathuum and index style enemies would be a huge step in the right direction.
Things on the floor to avoid, attacks you HAVE to cover from, enemies you HAVE to prioritize, slow moving projectiles you HAVE to shoot up or dodge. That all smells like end game to me.
The Jupiter tile traps were also amazing for me personally, I loved that the environment had ACTUAL lethal hazards rather than "oops the door turned on and I got knocked down and have no energy"

But I feel like the biggest obstacle before "end game" or at the very least ENGAGING content that DE has to overcome is enemy design.
Traditionally in horde shooters, especially endless ones, the majority of enemies would be low mechanic requiring (IE shoot them and they die) that are not very dangerous until there is a lot of them, but woven in the waves are heavy enemies with a lot of lethality and skill to take out. For example in killing floor there is a MASSIVE difference between a clot, a siren, and a scrake. and it seems like way back when DE WANTED to do something like this, but executed it poorly, as there is very little difference between a lancer, a bombard, or an ancient healer. They may be tankier and attack ever so slightly differently, but you don't have to deal with them any differently than you would other enemies. you just shoot them and they die, typically before they can even be a threat.

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3 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:

So the steel path interests me, but what interests me MORE is the fact that they have said this is a step towards end game and not to be conflated with endgame itself, which reads to me as "we know the steel path is artificial difficulty for now, but enjoy this while we make actual end game content."

Uhm... you sure you got that right?

From Rebecca's post:

Quote

What it isn’t:
- intended to be associated with the nebulous ‘end game’ topic.

They even say it doesn't have to do with end game. So where are you getting from that it's a step towards end game? óÒ

 

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3 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Uhm... you sure you got that right?

From Rebecca's post:

They even say it doesn't have to do with end game. So where are you getting from that it's a step towards end game? óÒ

 

What I mean is, It feels like they're giving us something to hold our attention while they work on end game.

And just because they SAY it isn't end game, the devs don't really get to decide what is and isn't the end game. The players do.

So until there's an alternative, this will invariably be the "end game"

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Just now, VenomousValentine said:

What I mean is, It feels like they're giving us something to hold our attention while they work on end game.

So like every other shiny thing that we get?

Just now, VenomousValentine said:

And just because they SAY it isn't end game, the devs don't really get to decide what is and isn't the end game. The players do.

So until there's an alternative, this will invariably be the "end game"

Yes and no. 
Sure, players make up end game as they want. But by saying hard mode doesn't have to do anything with end game people can't complain that hard mode is bad end game, as DE themself stated that it isn't end game to begin with.
So it's not entirely accurate to say that either one of the parties decides what end game is.

 

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1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

So like every other shiny thing that we get?

Yes and no. 
Sure, players make up end game as they want. But by saying hard mode doesn't have to do anything with end game people can't complain that hard mode is bad end game, as DE themself stated that it isn't end game to begin with.
So it's not entirely accurate to say that either one of the parties decides what end game is.

 

I get your point, but I feel like you're missing mine. They say it has "NOTHING" to do with end game, but I feel like this is sort of a test to gauge the capability of the playerbase to formulate what an actual end game should look like.

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Sadly, DE added MR to the Steel Path, which means we are going to hear from the usual loud casual voices here on the forums, Reddit and whatnot about how "annoying" and "a slog" it is and not fun and etc. etc. until DE nerfs it to the ground to please them as usual.

From what I've seen so far, Steel Path looks pretty cool, but I doubt it will remain as it is for long.

 

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I think I am gonna treat it like a "new game plus", it's been a while since I went through the starchart and this time I wont have to do it operator only to keep it interesting. 

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb Vit0Corleone:

Sadly, DE added MR to the Steel Path, which means we are going to hear from the usual loud casual voices here on the forums, Reddit and whatnot about how "annoying" and "a slog" it is and not fun and etc. etc. until DE nerfs it to the ground to please them as usual.

From what I've seen so far, Steel Path looks pretty cool, but I doubt it will remain as it is for long.

 

You can't really nerf something like this honestly, it is onyl lvl 100+, meaing it only takes longer to do things and dieing faster, i not see any challange in this like others seemingly do to compare there ego because they can build a meta faster then others.

The game is not and will never be made for complicated gameplay that challanges you, just bulletsponges and onehit death mechanics.

Weakspots and invunerablity phases are annoying on enemies here but tehy are atleast a attempt to make a mechanic and not just fire your biggest guns, same way Railjjack got nerfed, it not changes any, only that you shoot a enemy 2-3 times instead of 4-5 times while mission takes what, 3 minutes longer?

Why do people applaud this "hard mode" like its the second coming of Jesus again? I not care and if they nerf it, i not care and do it just for the sake of completing it once for the mastery, like everything in game has been so far, mastery fodder.

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Personally I don't think Steel Path is anything more than DE needing to add 'something' to the game because of the recent updates being poorly received and/or lacking.  I wouldn't even be shocked if it is 'released' on or around tennocon....

If you look at it subjectively they've picked a relatively easy thing to add that people have been asking for.  All they need to do is add a 'simple' modifier so we get higher level for existing maps along with a toggle switch essentially, even the rewards haven't been touched when you think about it.  

As to MR, while I'm basically over the MR grind, the missions themselve are essentially the highest level from sorties so it's not going to be that hard at the end of the day is it.. most of the 'target players' will have it done in a day if not less.

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1 час назад, VenomousValentine сказал:

combining the steel path with the addition of rathuum and index style enemies would be a huge step in the right direction.

Mhm. I'm pretty sure there is already some reviews on Hard Mode on the youtube, gonna check them out soon. But...ah... level 100 mobs. What is a level 100 mob? It's a trash. They die from a spit in their general direction, which means DE may do this a stupid way. And by stupid way i mean they might buff their shields, armor and health, which would make entire experience of this Steel Path annoyingly slow, boring, poor or to put it simply, bad.

Now given that most of the mobs that may cause problems to players have some kind of damage resistance, immunity to powers etc. Chances that DE would do it a stupid way are very high. So, i'm fully expect damage sponges in this Steel Path thingy. And i really hope that i'm wrong, because i can strip armor, buff my damage and somehow counter-act such approach on foot, but i really, really hope that AW missions will not be included into Steel Path.

But, again, i also have tiny, little hope that i'm wrong and DE would come with some sort of good game design for this game mode.

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1 hour ago, VenomousValentine said:

What I mean is, It feels like they're giving us something to hold our attention while they work on end game

Hahahaha.

To me it reads like this: "we have no idea on how to make end game content. Whatever we do, no matter the difficulty, you min-max it, exploit any flaw in the code, use only the most meta and broken equipment, trivialize the challenge, and then come to the forums to whine that it wasn't the endgame. Like it was something we didn't know. So this sentence is here for you, blowhards. We know it's not the endgame. You don't need to come and whine when you reach that conclusion on your own, you two-neurons-subgeniuses."

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4 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Hahahaha.

To me it reads like this: "we have no idea on how to make end game content. Whatever we do, no matter the difficulty, you min-max it, exploit any flaw in the code, use only the most meta and broken equipment, trivialize the challenge, and then come to the forums to whine that it wasn't the endgame. Like it was something we didn't know. So this sentence is here for you, blowhards. We know it's not the endgame. You don't need to come and whine when you reach that conclusion on your own, you two-neurons-subgeniuses."

If you really think DE has done anything besides pumping numbers up and down to try and create an end game, then you are sorely mistaken.

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1 hour ago, VenomousValentine said:

"we know the steel path is artificial difficulty for now, but enjoy this while we make actual end game content."

While, like @WhiteMarker said, it's not endgame related at all, it does seem to say that "moar levels" isn't their direction for endgame. Which, I agree, is a good direction. Tacking on more levels hasn't worked historically and the changes to enemy scaling kind of show that.

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2 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:

If you really think DE has done anything besides pumping numbers up and down to try and create an end game, then you are sorely mistaken.

Yes, they have no idea on how to create an endgame, as I said. Thanks for needlessly expanding on my argument. Do you have a point to make?

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1 hour ago, WhiteMarker said:

Uhm... you sure you got that right?

From Rebecca's post:

They even say it doesn't have to do with end game. So where are you getting from that it's a step towards end game? óÒ

 

What’s funny is they also completely ruined what one of their intents were with giving players a faster access to level 100 enemies. As apparently in the test server they applied a 2x health, armor, and shields Multiplier to all hardmode enemies. Meaning they’re not true level 100+ enemies and Simulcrum remains the only place to accurately test weapons and Warframes.

why does DE do these things?

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39 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Whatever we do, no matter the difficulty, you min-max it, exploit any flaw in the code, use only the most meta and broken equipment, trivialize the challenge, and then come to the forums to whine that it wasn't the endgame.

And this is why normal people, who want to play the game normaly, at a normal pace, can't have nice things.

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2 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Sadly, DE added MR to the Steel Path, which means we are going to hear from the usual loud casual voices here on the forums, Reddit and whatnot about how "annoying" and "a slog" it is and not fun and etc. etc. until DE nerfs it to the ground to please them as usual.

From what I've seen so far, Steel Path looks pretty cool, but I doubt it will remain as it is for long.

 

I already watched a video where someone referred to it as an un-fun slog. I more fear the difficulty being nerfed before it ever gets released.

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2 hours ago, VenomousValentine said:

Things on the floor to avoid, attacks you HAVE to cover from, enemies you HAVE to prioritize, slow moving projectiles you HAVE to shoot up or dodge. That all smells like end game to me.
 

But I feel like the biggest obstacle before "end game" or at the very least ENGAGING content that DE has to overcome is enemy design.
Traditionally in horde shooters, especially endless ones, the majority of enemies would be low mechanic requiring (IE shoot them and they die) that are not very dangerous until there is a lot of them, but woven in the waves are heavy enemies with a lot of lethality and skill to take out. For example in killing floor there is a MASSIVE difference between a clot, a siren, and a scrake. and it seems like way back when DE WANTED to do something like this, but executed it poorly, as there is very little difference between a lancer, a bombard, or an ancient healer. They may be tankier and attack ever so slightly differently, but you don't have to deal with them any differently than you would other enemies. you just shoot them and they die, typically before they can even be a threat.

that doesn't sound like fun to me, that sounds like Raids in traditional MMO's. where there is no creativity and no thinking for yourself, you basically play simon says for 20-40 minutes.

 

Killing Floor achieves greatness for sure, but Enemies aren't just Trash or not Trash!
the 3 types of Clots are indeed Trash, though even those aren't Trash if a Rioter buffs them. Gorefasts may be half Trash, but Gorefiends definitely are not.
Stalkers are Trash Healthwise but they do a good job of suicidally blocking attacks unexpectedly, or just having pretty nuts DPS.
Crawlers especially 'Trash' in Health but being shorter than everything else and otherwise just really annoying is their role after all, just a harassing distraction. Elite especially.
Husks are pretty dangerous in their own right, Healthwise they are neither Trash nor Miniboss but they have enough to be significant and also attacks to be significant.
and then Quarterpounds were a nice mixup from just having one or two Fleshpounds.
Bloats and Sirens firmly as not Trash (Bloats in particular even having Miniboss levels of Health), but are Support units.
EDARs being interestingly half Trash half danger, with their grave weaknesses but also potentially a lot of Damage or unique CC (Bombers being quite dangerous if you can't dodge, Blasters usually just suppression but if you get face blasted still huts a lot)
Scrakes and Fleshpounds being self explanatory.

but the reasons why it works so well, is partly because of Enemies being Trash AND not Trash (all of them being this way), but also because Enemies are also useful to the Player, the Player being able to use the tools the Enemies have against them if they're clever.
i.e. Killing Floor is not just Trash with a few Heavies mixed in, every Enemy has the capability to be a significant threat, but almost every single Enemy also has the capability to be dispatched fairly quickly too.
not to mention that Difficulty Tiers add a few new Abilities and new Enemy variants, even.
that's what makes Killing Floor work.

and yes, Warframe doesn't.... have that other than Eximus units. and even with Eximus and other types of Auras buffing stuff, a Trash Enemy, is still always a Trash Enemy. and by far most of the Enemies, still are those Trash Enemies. and they never stop being so.

55 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

As apparently in the test server they applied a 2x health, armor, and shields Multiplier to all hardmode enemies. Meaning they’re not true level 100+ enemies and Simulcrum remains the only place to accurately test weapons and Warframes.

why does DE do these things?

well yno, they nefed the Level Scaling of all Enemies so that they basically don't Level Scale anymore, then immediately add a 'Game Tier' that exclusively relies on Enemy Level Scaling, so they have to apply an inconsistent Multiplier to it to put it all back anyways(since there was no reason at all to have nerfed the Enemies in the first place).

this is Warframe after all, and Warframes' middle name is inconsistency.

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22 minutes ago, taiiat said:

 

well yno, they nefed the Level Scaling of all Enemies so that they basically don't Level Scale anymore, then immediately add a 'Game Tier' that exclusively relies on Enemy Level Scaling, so they have to apply an inconsistent Multiplier to it to put it all back anyways(since there was no reason at all to have nerfed the Enemies in the first place).

this is Warframe after all, and Warframes' middle name is inconsistency.

And by doing so they just reinforced Simulcrum as the only place to go for high level enemy tests as they screwed with the scaling for hardmode.

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3 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Sadly, DE added MR to the Steel Path, which means we are going to hear from the usual loud casual voices here on the forums, Reddit and whatnot about how "annoying" and "a slog" it is and not fun and etc. etc. until DE nerfs it to the ground to please them as usual.

From what I've seen so far, Steel Path looks pretty cool, but I doubt it will remain as it is for long.

 

i bet the 2x health/armor will be the first to go. I know for a fact that casuals will complain about having to build specifically to do sufficient damage to a faction. 

I fear that the mastery points awarded will kill this mode. Instead of it being seen as something extra to do, people will accuse DE of being shady and being cheap on content, etc. DE will then cave to quell riots on forums while doing a bunch of "we're sorry. we'll do better next time. forgive us" PR. 

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47 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i bet the 2x health/armor will be the first to go.

well, it shouldn't be there anyways. raise the Level Scaling cutoff to like 100 or something and place the Missions at that point, or just leave the Level Scaling how it was before and place the Missions at lv80 or something.

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9 часов назад, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 сказал:

As apparently in the test server they applied a 2x health, armor, and shields Multiplier to all hardmode enemies.

really? /facehoof

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14 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

And this is why normal people, who want to play the game normaly, at a normal pace, can't have nice things.

Mind elaborating what "playing the game normally" means? I'm confused. Is there a way to play it abnormally?

15 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

To me it reads like this: "we have no idea on how to make end game content. Whatever we do, no matter the difficulty, you min-max it, exploit any flaw in the code, use only the most meta and broken equipment, trivialize the challenge, and then come to the forums to whine that it wasn't the endgame. Like it was something we didn't know. So this sentence is here for you, blowhards. We know it's not the endgame. You don't need to come and whine when you reach that conclusion on your own, you two-neurons-subgeniuses."

Ah yes, the evil players. How dare them to play the game, using the tools that they're given to them? Must be rough for DE to have to deal with such a menacing force.

12 hours ago, taiiat said:

well, it shouldn't be there anyways. raise the Level Scaling cutoff to like 100 or something and place the Missions at that point, or just leave the Level Scaling how it was before and place the Missions at lv80 or something.

Sounds actually cool to me. When i tried the new armor and health scaling changes, i was severely disappointed. Now all you need is an invis frame and a well modded melee and you can go through level cap. As if the game wasn't easy enough, it just got turned easier and endurance basically made even more braindead. So i'm happy to hear that hard mode has "enforced" enemies than just a higher starting level. I'd also LOOOVE to see more "tough" units to have an appearance like more bursas, noxes or even some of the rathuum/index enemies thrown around in missions for a nice spin beyond just pumping up the numbers.

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Anyone wanna take a guess how long it will be until DE nerfs "hard mode" because it wasn't easy enough? because people can't actually get through levels with unmodded loadouts?

 

I will make a guess first, 2 months.

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17 hours ago, VenomousValentine said:

Things on the floor to avoid, attacks you HAVE to cover from, enemies you HAVE to prioritize, slow moving projectiles you HAVE to shoot up or dodge. That all smells like end game to me.

That's not "end game," though. It's just decent enemy design. Yes, we absolutely need more of this, but I see no reason to restrict it to just "end game." I've long maintained that Warframe's factions need more "structure" to them. They need better differentiation between Commons (simple, weak enemies who exist to provide cannon fodder), Specials (tanky enemies with unique mechanics) and Minibosses (overpowered enemies who require special attention). They need more mechanics like what you describe. Bombards with telegraphed dumbfire rockets with a proximity fuse, Heavy Gunners who spool up their Gorgons and spray a cone in front of them but don't track, Napalms with flame tanks that can be shot to set nearby enemies on fire, etc. We also need more enemy weak points. Shooting a Heavy Gunner's Gorgon causes her to reload, shooting Bombard rockets out of the air, shooting the flame tank on a Napalm to set nearby enemies on fire and disable his flame launcher, various plates and helmets and coverings that can be shot off revealing weaknesses underneath, etc.

And again - this can be done right from the start of the game. It already is. One of this game's most well-designed enemies is the Shockwave Moa. Yes it can be annoying and a cheap shot, but it's MY fault if I get nailed by it. The Shockwave Moa announces its stomp with an unmistable, loud audio cue and gives me a good 2 seconds at least to either try to shoot it or try to avoid the stomp, and the stomp itself is a slow-moving wave on the ground. While not exactly low-level, the Nox is another good example. A unique sound package makes their presence impossible to miss and their glass visor weak point is as intuitive as it is satisfying to break. We don't need to conflate well-designed action game enemies with this mythical "end game," I don't think.

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