Grendel's energy management(edited after actual coherent testing)

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Not only is he a stupid warframe, his kit is stupid as well.

Edit: apparently this particular comment did not age well.

Nourish energy can't help me when i'm required to eat enemies 99% of the time

Edit: except that nourish energy increases energy gained from all sources, ie rage, hunter adrenaline, energy orbs

I managed to reach 100 energy consumption PER SECOND. 

Edit: i was in the simulacrum, completely impractical for combat testing, and i wasn't supposed to hold enemies for that long anyway.

Why can't grendel's Feast absorb enemies endlessly but decrease energy casting efficiency for his other abilities 

Edit: i realized my mistakes, now i gotta fix them, this is basically the same thing but in a different way, and it won't solve his energy problem.

Or add a cap to his energy per second consumption

Edit: that's actually not that bad.

Anything that's better than his current awful state.

Edit: it's a miracle what a few days difference can do to change a person's mind.

[OscarN.]

I'm not a huge Grendel fan either but let's go by each negative thing you stated about him and I'll express my feelings.
 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Nourish energy can't help me when i'm required to eat enemies 99% of the time

That's true but that's Grendel's kit, it's all based around your first ability but you shouldn't constantly eat all the time, randomly you should to obtain the buffs and possibly using his three to throw them out and stop wasting energy constantly until you need a new re-new buffs from his two, or use his four and roll around that's your preference but I don't see him being a annoying thing to keep up with energy honestly, yes he's one energy hungry boy but not like other warframes 

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

I managed to reach 100 energy consumption PER SECOND. 

Than you shouldn't try to eat everything at once, only eat a few at times and use buffs etc. Yes I know his one is good to store enemies and remove armor n such but once again his kit isn't always about holding enemies in. Yes you get a buff from enemies stored which is 50 bonus armor yourself, but that doesn't mean you need to hold like 20+ enemies, if I play him I hold max 5 at one time so I can re-new my buffs or gain that armor buff.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Why can't grendel's Feast absorb enemies endlessly but decrease energy casting efficiency for his other abilities 

Or add a cap to his energy per second consumption

Okay so I'll address these both at the same time from personal experience, making efficiency lower won't solve the problem cause then his other abilities won't be used at all cause you'll run into the same problem, energy management, cause as far I've seen you seem bother by the energy cost of his one while holding enemies and this won't resolve that issue one bit, rather the opposite causing a more obvious one then how would you use nourish? Cause then it'd cost more to use one ability then holding enemies in. secondly, adding a cap would't be fair as some warframes doesn't have this cap and then why shouldn't they? Having a cap would be also break the warframe itself cause then you can adsorb a lot of enemies and gain that buff and I don't know (quote me if I'm wrong) but then he gain near infinite armor stacks and then be near unkillable, and you'd only press one and keep them in until they died or had to feast again.


That's all I've to say about this, yes I agree on some statements even though I can come out as entirely against this but his kit seems to work for me personally and doesn't need a rework or fix at this current state.

[selig_fay]

@RailJakt I think there is a problem in power fantasy. When you take Grendel, you expect a man with a black hole in his stomach. But you get only a person who must strictly keep a diet. That is, reality very much destroys imagination.

[OscarN.]

Just now, selig_fay said:

@RailJakt I think there is a problem in power fantasy. When you take Grendel, you expect a man with a black hole in his stomach. But you get only a person who must strictly keep a diet. That is, reality very much destroys imagination.

Okay so yes, I understand you're point but how many different abilities or changed do you think could be done and it'd be suitable for the game and justified and balanced? It's quite difficult to do so and that's simply my take on him as I don't try to have a lot of enemies at once rather little as the energy cost is a lot yes I do know that but I can lower the cost with mods and manage the amount of enemies I eat. Though I see what you're trying to imply there.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

It would seem like DE tried way too hard to balance the energy economies of Ember and Grendel around the existence of Zenurik, Energize, 100x Restores, etc... and the end result is an extremely punishing tightrope balancing act with only moderate payoffs. Some players like careful high-precision gameplay, but it seems rather out of place here, especially when numerous other frames can do pretty much the same things as Ember and Grendel, but with significantly less effort and risk.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Besides his energy issues he also needs improvements to his other abilities. Here is what I would do;

Grendel

Passive improvement: Enemies within a 50m radius will give him 20 armour.

 

1st ability:

·       Energy does not ramp up the longer you have an enemy in his gut.

 

2nd ability:

·       When stomping the ground, enemies within a 15m radius receive a knockdown.

·       He receives 100 health per enemy digested.

·       Holding the ability will digest all enemies in his gut.

 

3rd ability:

(This ability should not be a separate ability and should be combined with his first ability and activated when holding the ability, which means he needs a new third ability)

·       Increase splash radius by 7m.

 

4th ability:

·       Make the handling easier and remove the inertia.

·       Make this ability not require an enemy in his gut to be able to activate it.

 

If you want to see my ideas for reworks, revisits and QOL`s for every frame check it out here.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1168575-warframe-reworks-revisits-qols-of-every-frame/

 

[selig_fay]

20 minutes ago, RailJakt said:

Okay so yes, I understand you're point but how many different abilities or changed do you think could be done and it'd be suitable for the game and justified and balanced? It's quite difficult to do so and that's simply my take on him as I don't try to have a lot of enemies at once rather little as the energy cost is a lot yes I do know that but I can lower the cost with mods and manage the amount of enemies I eat. Though I see what you're trying to imply there.

There are many things you can balance about that would even affect more. The whole problem of the grendel lies in the fact that it can actually afk some modes, since the enemies have a cap on the number. And here I see a lot of ways out of situations. The simplest thing: let the enemies simply die in the stomach after a while, creating a new spawn, but at the same time, the players will not get anything from this kill. This is an even more severe restriction, but it will be justified, both stylistically and mechanically. Things in the stomach are digested and it is obvious that you can no longer use them.

[OscarN.]

9 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

There are many things you can balance about that would even affect more.

Okay, I see your point.

9 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

The whole problem of the grendel lies in the fact that it can actually afk some modes, since the enemies have a cap on the number.

There's other frames that can do the exact same thing and enemies get higher and there isn't a cap on their levels as they can reach lvl 9999 as far my research proved, but you can prove me wrong if that's the case.

15 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

The simplest thing: let the enemies simply die in the stomach after a while, creating a new spawn, but at the same time, the players will not get anything from this kill.

They do die after a while, if you see his first ability it does damage towards the held in enemies base 500 toxin damage per second or however long it counts that I'm unsure about and it also does armor reduction 5%/s which is great too and mind you it's without any straight mod applied as that's his base damage from it, but making it quicker makes feasting less appealing from my own opinion.

17 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

This is an even more severe restriction, but it will be justified, both stylistically and mechanically. Things in the stomach are digested and it is obvious that you can no longer use them.

It is a restriction in his kit all together but I see it being justified yes but once again the goal is you having enemies in your stomach for either current use or later use, it comes down to what you decide to eat and how long you want them in.

Okay that's probably my last message as I'm somewhat being negative and being all like: I don't like or want this so that's my opinion this as a whole, something needs to be done with Grendel yes but i'm not sure what we could do to "fix" it but good points were posted above 

 

 

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Besides his energy issues he also needs improvements to his other abilities. Here is what I would do;

Grendel

Passive improvement: Enemies within a 50m radius will give him 20 armour.

 

1st ability:

·       Energy does not ramp up the longer you have an enemy in his gut.

 

2nd ability:

·       When stomping the ground, enemies within a 15m radius receive a knockdown.

·       He receives 100 health per enemy digested.

·       Holding the ability will digest all enemies in his gut.

 

3rd ability:

(This ability should not be a separate ability and should be combined with his first ability and activated when holding the ability, which means he needs a new third ability)

·       Increase splash radius by 7m.

 

4th ability:

·       Make the handling easier and remove the inertia.

·       Make this ability not require an enemy in his gut to be able to activate it.

 

If you want to see my ideas for reworks, revisits and QOL`s for every frame check it out here.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1168575-warframe-reworks-revisits-qols-of-every-frame/

 

As some of these post mention some of these could be a good fix and some aren't, but I won't go into details which I like and which I don't, but seeing this is better than anything else.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Not only is he a stupid warframe, his kit is stupid as well.

Nourish energy can't help me when i'm required to eat enemies 99% of the time

I managed to reach 100 energy consumption PER SECOND. 

Why can't grendel's Feast absorb enemies endlessly but decrease energy casting efficiency for his other abilities 

Or add a cap to his energy per second consumption

Anything that's better than his current awful state.

He doesn't do as much damage as a gun, and he's a micromanaging hellhole.  Only frame that pisses me off more from how close they are to being enjoyable is Hildryn, since her "bonus" for having overshields is ragdolling enemies out of her crowd control.

[NinjaZeku]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Energy does not ramp up

Can we please just make this a thing in general? 😛

6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

4th ability:

[...] Make this ability not require an enemy in his gut to be able to activate it.

Very much this, plskthx ❤️

Either make this version free (with no damage added),
or give it the base drain (but then also damage) of a single enemy I guess,
but at-will meatball mode is a must, as far as I'm concerned.

And it's not like that'd be OP or anything, it's a mobility (reducing) gimmick, for the lulz.
Won't someone think of the lulz?!

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

If you want to see my ideas for reworks, revisits and QOL`s for every frame check it out here.

I would if you haven't completely ignored my gauss feedback, called me stupid multiple times, and "blocked" me for a really childish and niche reason. 🤷‍♂️

[Silvertap]

People think, if he had low energy comsuption he would be unbeatble!! Just think, ok.

 

Also u don't need to eat everything and never spit it out. Eet, turn into ball, jump for bit. Eat, cast 3. Eat, cast 2 to restore health. Eat and hold 1 to release, just to reduce enemys armor for a bit and CC then. Don't hold enemies in your belly, that is a fatal mistake.

Also, Umbral build works great for him. He doesnt need to mutch str, but needs HP, and armor. Adaptation. Rage/Hunteradrenaline, Arcane grace and Guardian. That should work for taking high level enemies out easily. That is how i do it, and have fun with him.

REMEMBER don't hold enemies for too long, and u will be ok.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Having looked through the builds and possibilities with Grendel, something I think needs to be adjusted, and it's not actually the energy. Not as such.

Grendel's little power fantasy is that he can just eat everything, but in practicality that creates massive drain on him, and it doesn't do it for any really good reason because the calculations that are based on the number of enemies in his stomach are... well... they cap out at 10. Like his 4's base damage and size.

Grendel is rare in that every bit of damage he can deal is scaled up by enemy level, and he has a self-buffing option that can add on multiplied damage to his and other frame's abilities. With the right build you can lower his energy consumption per enemy to 0.38 per second, or about 3.8 at 10 enemies, which is then all you need for his kit.

At this point, I will definitely agree that the ramp-up in energy is absolutely ridiculous. If you're already at max Efficiency with (nearly) neutral Duration and the ability is costing nearly 4 per second to affect only 10 enemies? That's enough. There are bigger drains in the game, ones that start at 20 per second and Efficiency can only lower those to around 6 per second, but they're massive radial casts that can affect dozens of enemies at once, deal better damage, and are not required to cast the frame's other abilities. Fixed drain is enough, DE.

What we need to address, though, is that massive disparity from his 1 to his 4 in terms of drain. The same build that will give you 0.38 energy per second per enemy will drop the 'empty' cost of his 4 down to only 2.5 Energy per second. And that's a fair cost to have when you compare the un-ramped-up cast of his 1 up to 10 enemies. At 10 enemies you gain maximum damage and size for his 4, and with Strength you can be dealing 10k damage per Collision, which then scales with enemy level, and can have Toxin damage added on to it by Nourished Strike. He's a really good damage dealer if you can actually apply it.

And to that... we should cap his enemy consumption. Cap it at 10, so he will build up to that max and then we can get his other abilities buffed more.

Buff the range of impact on his 3, the damage is decent, especially with Nourished Strike and the Enemy Level Scaling. It just needs to be delivered properly.

Buff Nourished Armour so that it actually does something useful. Radial damage on hit, or a 'retaliation' function is okay as a concept, but the low range and pitiful base, even with Nourished Strike, makes it have no real reason to use it. If it marked enemies it hits for a chance to drop an Energy Orb on death? Then this would feed into Nourished Energy by helping him self-sustain his Drains.

Buff Nourish in general by giving the Duration of his buffs at least double their current time. Hell, go the Titania route and give it a 120 Second duration that you can't mod, only refresh. You have all the same trouble of cycling the buffs, requiring an enemy to cast on, and you even have the Energy Drain from his 1 to sustain while you even cast them. There should be more reward for jumping through more hoops, DE.

And finally... yeah, I agree with removing the Inertia from his 4. He should be able to start moving at least as fast as a jogging Warframe and move up to a sprinting speed in a reasonable time frame. That's just silly otherwise. I don't really care about the momentum weighting, though, having to compensate for crashing into a wall is something I would expect. But requiring an Augment to get moving is just silly.

So tl;dr

Cap his enemy consumption which is a balancing trick in order to buff him overall. Buff his 1 by removing the ramp-up drain on enemies consumed, buff his 2 by making buffs last longer and have some self-sustain by giving his weakest buff a chance to generate Energy for him, buff his 3 by giving it better impact range (how are we supposed to snipe with a crewman shot out of our gut?) and buff his 4 by letting us get up to speed quicker, indirectly also buffed by the lower consumption of energy on his 1 and way to easily show when we have max damage/size by having 10 enemies inside.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

@NinjaZeku @RailJakt I`m not done with him yet i`m going to add more ideas to his abilities that will make him useful and I need to think of something to replace his 3rd ability but I will be updating it on my post.

[DrivaMain]

He is a good frame if you mod him fight, but I agree. His hidden exponential energy drain ramp up is ridiculous. for example if I hold 1 enemy in the gut for at least 20 seconds the drain ramps up to 20 energy per second.

DE needs to either :

1. Remove it entirely and cap the maximum hold capacity to ten for balancing.

2. Energy ramp up starts when holding more than 10 enemies. It helps keep the frame balanced and players can take the risk of high energy drain if they chooses to eat more than intended.

[Annnoth]

I actually think Grendel is fine conceptually. He's endlessly hungry shown by how fast he can eat tons of enemies and destroy them as well as how fast he can gain and deplete energy. The real problem is only one ability really feels like it capitalizes on that and everything else leads you to believe the opposite. 

His passive is screaming "hold as many enemies as you can" at you, why would you not? he has no other defensive mechanic outside of his CC so you're inclined to go with it. Then the drain hits you. 

Then you have his 2 and 3, both only affect one enemy at a time. Not really helpful when he can consume many at once and his 1 already functions as a massive expel button. 

Then his 4. The way it behaves it with the snap shotting and slowly killing everyone inside it makes you want to stay in that form longer to maximize the snapshotted damage bonus despite the drain.

He would make more sense if he was actually potent in any regard but his 1st ability. Don't have his passive reward you for keeping enemies but give you a reward for going for a "high score" of most enemies caught at once in the last time frame perhaps. Maybe have his 2 deal way more damage in a much more scalable form to everything when you cast it while granting energy back per kill and also increasing the heal you get on a per enemy basis, this way you trade the shotgun that can hurt other enemies for the buffs and healing instead while dealing with the enemies you ate. I don't know what you'd do with his 3, it's genuinely so redundant.

With his 4 it would benefit way more from doing a lot more damage but not being much of a channeled ability. Just give it a ton of front loaded damage to enemies he hits and the ones inside of him more so and having it all happen in a set duration where you're just launching yourself in a line that you can control the direction of as well as choose when you jump for the radial slams. As it stands Grendel feels all or nothing with how much he can drain and gain but other than his 1 and maybe some of his buffs, he doesn't have much to show for it.

Just some ideas. I like him, but fully acknowledge he's my personally brain dead pick. His 1 is a silly nuke and he can take a beating but man if his numbers aren't low for everything else.

[Mu_Gera]

On 2020-06-29 at 8:37 AM, RailJakt said:

Than you shouldn't try to eat everything at once

except the premise of feast is to literally do that, his entire kit is. and I get that it would trivialize most enemies if you just ate everything nonstop but the uncapped energy drain is taking a hammer to the problem.

 

On 2020-06-29 at 8:37 AM, RailJakt said:

but his kit seems to work for me personally and doesn't need a rework or fix at this current state.

as someone who does actually use him, he has some very obvious problems. the most obvious changes I've felt he needs is his passive needs to go from 50 armor per enemy eaten to 50 hp per second per enemy eaten, feast needs an increase to the static vomit range, nourish needs a radial heal, regurgitate needs its damage set equal to vaubans photon strike and a tap/hold function to switch from semi to full auto, and pulverize needs better handling and needs to lose the 10 enemy cap for damage/range. and of course there's the insane energy costs that need to be normalized, except for pulverize if those changes were made cause you can't justify them otherwise.

[IEtherI]

This was a very poorly designed warframe and the reason no one does the content required to get him. Anyone playing him is for the meme.

[PsiWarp]

His energy drain formulas on Feast and Pulverize should be looked at.

Grendel on a normal day wants to hold at most 10 enemies to keep Pulverize at its strongest state. Any surplus enemies are for mass CC, building up damage for a Feast vomit, clutch Nourish heals, and Regurgitate ammo reserve.

IMO, the energy drain per enemy should only start ramping up if Grendel is holding more than 10 enemies. Pulverize's empty stomach drain shouldn't ramp up at all (there's no harm staying in ball form after all, unlike keeping too many enemies in his belly preventing spawns).

[xcrimsonlegendx]

On 2020-06-29 at 5:16 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Not only is he a stupid warframe, his kit is stupid as well.

 You lost me on the first line.

Yes, he needs improvements but he's one of the more enjoyable and interesting frames in my opinion. I genuinely have "fun" when I play him.

[Orakan]

First of all Grendel is one of the best tanky supports in the game, secondly his only need is removal of that ridicilious shield and turning to him full hp warframes like nidus or inaros and so he can constantly get energy from rage or hunter adrenalin mods

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Orakan said:

First of all Grendel is one of the best tanky supports in the game

Going to have to... shall we say... burst that bubble a little there, and I do mean that in the best of ways.

Grendel easily could be one of the best tanky supports in game, if his abilities were rebalanced a little to make them not so draining and have that consistent delivery of them. He isn't one of the best though, not really because of this, but because the other 'tanky supports' are actually just better frames overall.

I mean, let's look at it this way:

In terms of 'tanky supports' who are you referring to? Because if you mean support in that they can provide better Survivability to their team and restore health or energy or make their team members tankier in specific ways, then there's... well, that pool is very narrow.

In terms of actual supports, that is frames that actually enable their allies to survive better, you have... Chroma, Equinox, Gara, Grendel, Harrow, Hildryn, Nezha, Oberon, Protea, Titania, Trinity and Wisp.

Of ones that have similar functions to Grendel, with base Nourish for Health and Nourished Energy, then maybe Nourished Armour because of the retaliation damage that can sometimes, but rarely, stagger enemies... then you're looking at only Equinox, Harrow, Nezha, Oberon, Protea, Trinity and Wisp.

Equinox can heal allies and slow enemies. Harrow heals, restores energy and temporarily makes allies invulnerable, while also providing some good CC. Nezha has a simultaneous damage buff and damage dealer that marks enemies for Health and Energy on death, while providing great CC. Oberon heals and provides armour along with zones of anti-status, will also CC. Protea makes allies instantly have massive shields, extended invulnerability phases when shields break, dispenses health, energy and ammo. Trinity heals, provides energy and grants 75% damage reduction to all allies she heals. Wisp provides a boost to base health, a heal, and allows allies to pick up a wide-radius CC totem, she also further CC's and debuffs enemies to spark damage to each other.

Of those supports, how many are actually tanky? Nezha, Oberon, Protea, and Trinity.

Nezha for his Chakram, Oberon with Iron Renewal, Protea with instant shield gating restores, and Trinity with Link and Blessing.

Grendel is not a better support than those frames.

In terms of tanky supports, Grendel is 5th of 5.

That's why we're here trying to deal with his energy drain to make him a much better tanky support frame ^^

[Bk201HeadShot]

Usually when you eat food you gain energy, i dont know why it drains instead... they should make it in a way that it becomes costless since the whole kit and warframe is built around his 1st ability, the more you eat the slower you get, enemy are fully consumed if they last for 60seconds or more in grendel’s belly, giving him energy, health and armor, otherwise grendel would always be useless as long as he got this energy drain thing

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, Bk201HeadShot said:

Usually when you eat food you gain energy, i dont know why it drains instead... they should make it in a way that it becomes costless since the whole kit and warframe is built around his 1st ability, the more you eat the slower you get, enemy are fully consumed if they last for 60seconds or more in grendel’s belly, giving him energy, health and armor, otherwise grendel would always be useless as long as he got this energy drain thing

Welcome in energy drain reality! This is why we have sooo many useless builds. It not only grendel. It about all exalted modes, which force us to do maximum energy efficiency.

[Bk201HeadShot]

6 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Welcome in energy drain reality! This is why we have sooo many useless builds. It not only grendel. It about all exalted modes, which force us to do maximum energy efficiency.

not at all, excalibur with hunter's adrenaline and 0% efficiency is enough, unlike mesa, max efficiency + primed flow is mandatory, but they are still playable even with these 3 core mods on, unlike grendel, tbh i grinded him so hard which means I did my best to make him as strong as possible, but nothing worked, no matter how much efficiency, duration, strength, armor... i build, it gives no results, he is always lacking