Improving Reward Tables To Keep Them Evergreen

[squirrel_killer-]

So in a recent interview/podcast... thing Rebecca mentioned an issue with Evergreen rewards, and Brozime pointed out we often look for missions that give something efficiently when farming. This is a suggestion of a way to help minimize these issues without introducing any new missions or completely new mechanics without precedent in the game already. The goal is two fold: Give new players an edge in evergreen gathering item without impeding their ability to get non-evergreen rewards, while giving more veteran players the chance to farm for these evergreen rewards without the non-evergreen rewards getting in the way and as such keep these nodes and game modes fresh and alive without drastically damaging the existing trade economy for these non-evergreen drops.

Defining "Evergreen":

Let us define evergreen as: "something that will always be needed or useful no matter the MR or stage of play a player is in, regardless of if said item has dropped before or not for that player." This gives us a list including, but not limited to: Endo, Credits, Relics, Materials (including things like kuva or void traces), Ayatans, Focus Lens and others. This specifically excludes things such as mods, warframe/weapon parts, arcanes (though multiple arcanes ARE needed, you only need a finite number of them) and others.

What exactly entails evergreen is highly debatable, and could be the issue of many long debates and discussions, with some players, such as myself, considering credits, materials (including kuva or void traces), relics, and focus as no longer evergreen. This list is purposely generous just to increase its likelihood to be of assistance to newer players rather than just salty old veterans like myself wanting an end game, complaining about a lack of challenge, and demanding more content. New players shouldn't have their experience inhibited just so us veterans can have more ducats or to help feed the riven beast. There are more players here than us, and they do need insane amounts of these other rewards and don't have years and months of no lifing this game to leave them with impossible to account for resource stock piles. That is its own issue that can't be solved without adding new systems to the game that I certainly can't think of to fix the issue.

The current systems we will be discussing and using as our starting point:

For all things discussed here we will reference and use the numbers found on the DE provided drop rates found here as I have found that, with my testing, these do in fact seem to be the true drop chances of things when looking at things where I have a large enough sample size to verify so we will not accuse DE of any deceit with these and use these as a starting point to show the precedent of DE trying to do all they can to help us in our grinds:

Spoiler

  

On 2017-06-28 at 5:34 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hello Tenno!

Here you will find a new Warframe resource: https://n8k6e2y6.ssl.hwcdn.net/repos/hnfvc0o3jnfvc873njb03enrf56.html

First you'll want to make note of the Disclaimer:

This list represents data and drops from the PC version of the Free-to-play game Warframe.
That's right - Warframe is free! Which means our drop system is designed to maintain a balance. Our free players can earn the game's content, and our paying players who support us with purchases usually get first dibs on the content by using Platinum (which can be traded to free players)!
As far as we can tell... we are the first developers to post something quite like this - correct us if we're wrong! Let's hope it works out for us and we may start a trend.

This is automatically generated from our internal data but this data comes with no guarantees -- do not expect it to be comprehensive for how complex the game is.
This list will be maintained by an automated process combined with manual publishing with Updates (not all Hotfixes). We update often and new game systems may or may not be covered here.
This list can be discussed here in this thread. Know a free-to-play game that provides official drop rates in a different way? We'd love to know.

Thank you for playing Warframe.

 

We are going to focus on two mechanics: The mission end reward tables, and the "Blueprint/Mod Chance" aspect that enemies have upon death.

When you kill an enemy the following happens: It checks if X class of loot drops based on an RNG check against a percentage. If X class of loot drops it checks loot table X to find out what exactly X is exactly. For example the Kuva Heavy Gunner has a 10% chance to drop a mod. 2.01% of the time that mod is Sovereign Outcast. They also have a 7.00% chance to drop a resource, but a 100% chance for that resource to be a Region Resource. There is also a chance that the 10% for a mod and the 7% for a resource can both happen at the same time. Enemies also have a chance for a blueprint drop however for Kuva Heavy Gunner they have a 0% chance to drop a Blueprint. Most other Heavy Gunners have 1.00% chance to drop a blueprint and that blueprint has a 100% chance of being for Gorgon. This might be confusing why I am pointing at these split up loot tables, but it will make sense once we get further.

When you complete a mission rotation (we will call caches and spy vaults rotations for our purposes, and define missions like capture, exterminate or rescue as having "Only an A Rotation") the following happens: You have a 100% chance to get a drop based on that rotation, with a percentage chance to get a particular reward from that rotation. This is where the issue is, you only get one of these rewards, and some of these are certainly "Evergreen" others very much aren't depending on the node. This is the heart of the issue which we will be addressing.

The example tables we will use for the remainder of this idea:

I have cherry picked very specific tables that are quite good tables if not for certain non-evergreen items within them for certain grinds.

First, let us look at Sedna/Kelpie (Disruption):

Spoiler

Rotation C
Axi A6 Relic	Uncommon (10.20%)
Axi B3 Relic	Uncommon (10.20%)
Axi A9 Relic	Uncommon (10.20%)
Gauss Chassis Blueprint	Rare (7.84%)
Gauss Neuroptics Blueprint	Rare (7.84%)
Gauss Systems Blueprint	Rare (7.84%)
Universal Medallion	Rare (5.10%)
Axi G4 Relic	Uncommon (10.20%)
Axi T4 Relic	Uncommon (10.20%)
Axi T5 Relic	Uncommon (10.20%)
Axi A10 Relic	Uncommon (10.20%)

This table is wonderful, because Disruption is a great game mode to farm a C Rotation on. However this particular table, while dropping Axi Relics at a decent rate, also drops Gauss, a non-evergreen reward, and once you have a certain part of him that drop becomes a dead drop. Universal Medallions, however, do count as evergreen, so we won't be too upset if we get those. So we can look at this table and see there is a 23.52% chance of getting a dead drop for more veteran players, as for a player with Gauss, his parts are basically dead drops, sure they convert to some credits, but they aren't desirable. There is a 5.10% chance for the fairly desirable Universal Medallion, and a 71.38% chance for a random Axi Relic, the most desirable thing on this table for many players, and something that makes this a quite attractive node. The 23.52% chance of a dead drop is actually enough to make this node less desirable than just farming T3 Interception, but it doesn't need to be. We'll discuss how to fix this later with everything else. It is worth noting rotation A and B are exclusively evergreen here.

Next let us look at a "dead game mode" node, Eris/Oestrus (Infested Salvage) since trials no longer exist to encourage you to farm this node:

Spoiler

Rotation A
Vitality	Uncommon (10.00%)
Magazine Warp	Uncommon (10.00%)
Trick Mag	Uncommon (10.00%)
Neo T2 Relic	Uncommon (10.00%)
Neo A3 Relic	Uncommon (10.00%)
Neo Z5 Relic	Uncommon (10.00%)
Neo I2 Relic	Uncommon (10.00%)
Neo P1 Relic	Uncommon (10.00%)
Neo M3 Relic	Uncommon (10.00%)
Neo R4 Relic	Uncommon (10.00%)
Rotation B
Hornet Strike	Rare (6.67%)
Reflex Coil	Rare (6.67%)
Deep Freeze	Rare (6.67%)
North Wind	Rare (6.67%)
Hell's Chamber	Rare (6.67%)
Streamline	Rare (6.67%)
Shocking Touch	Rare (6.67%)
150 Endo	Rare (6.67%)
Axi A6 Relic	Rare (6.67%)
Axi A9 Relic	Rare (6.67%)
Axi B3 Relic	Rare (6.67%)
Axi G4 Relic	Rare (6.67%)
Axi T4 Relic	Rare (6.67%)
Axi T5 Relic	Rare (6.67%)
Axi A10 Relic	Rare (6.67%)
Rotation C
Nidus Systems Blueprint	Uncommon (14.29%)
Nidus Neuroptics Blueprint	Uncommon (14.29%)
Nidus Chassis Blueprint	Uncommon (14.29%)
Vital Sense	Uncommon (14.29%)
Metal Auger	Uncommon (14.29%)
Stretch	Uncommon (14.29%)
300 Endo	Uncommon (14.29%)

This node's "claim to fame" is it drops Nidus, otherwise much of its table is awful and once you have nidus there is almost no reason to return here. We'll only look at chances of evergreens here: 70.00% chance at a random Neo Relic on Rotation A, 53.36% chance for an evergreen on Rotation B, with a 6.67% of it being 150 Endo and a 46.69% chance for it to be a random Axi Relic, and on Rotation C a mere 14.29% chance for the only evergreen reward here 300 Endo.

Lastly, let us look at another "dead game mode" Arbitrations. These are supposed to be an "end game endo farm", but suffer from a partially diluted loot table. So lets discuss them:

Spoiler

Rotation A
Ayatan Valana Sculpture	Rare (9.00%)
Ayatan Sah Sculpture	Rare (9.00%)
Ayatan Ayr Sculpture	Rare (9.00%)
3X Vitus Essence	Rare (7.00%)
Arcane Pistoleer	Rare (5.00%)
Arcane Tanker	Rare (5.00%)
Arcane Bodyguard	Rare (5.00%)
Combat Discipline	Rare (2.00%)
Adaptation	Rare (2.00%)
Aerodynamic	Rare (2.00%)
Aura Forma Blueprint	Ultra Rare (1.00%)
900 Endo	Common (44.00%)
Rotation B
Ayatan Vaya Sculpture	Uncommon (12.00%)
Ayatan Piv Sculpture	Uncommon (12.00%)
3X Vitus Essence	Rare (7.00%)
Arcane Bodyguard	Rare (5.00%)
Arcane Blade Charger	Rare (5.00%)
Arcane Primary Charger	Rare (5.00%)
Combat Discipline	Rare (2.50%)
Adaptation	Rare (2.50%)
Shepherd	Rare (2.50%)
Aura Forma Blueprint	Rare (2.00%)
1200 Endo	Common (44.50%)
Rotation C
Ayatan Orta Sculpture	Uncommon (20.00%)
3X Vitus Essence	Rare (7.00%)
Arcane Pistoleer	Rare (5.00%)
Arcane Tanker	Rare (5.00%)
Arcane Blade Charger	Rare (5.00%)
Arcane Primary Charger	Rare (5.00%)
Combat Discipline	Rare (3.50%)
Melee Guidance	Rare (3.50%)
Swift Momentum	Rare (3.50%)
Seeding Step Ephemera Blueprint	Rare (5.00%)
Aura Forma Blueprint	Rare (4.50%)
1500 Endo	Common (33.00%)

We won't break down what the exact evergreen rewards are each rotation here, but I will classify Aura Forma Blueprints and Vitus Essence as evergreen rewards for this. For the most part the mods, arcanes, and ephemera are NOT evergreen, while sculptures and endo are the main evergreen appeal on this table. For Rotation A we have 77.00% chance for an evergreen, and only 8% of that isn't basically endo. For Rotation B we have 77.50% chance of evergreen, 9% that isn't endo. Rotation C is merely 64.5% chance of being evergreen however, making it is a way the least valuable of these rotations once you farm up the mods, ephemera, and arcanes.

The solution:

Remember when I pointed out that when you kill an enemy it first rolls to see if a certain table is going to drop at all then it decides what is from that table it will drop? Well we can take that same logic and give every rotation/mission end reward table two reward tables. The first table will be a sure fire thing. You will have a 100% chance to get a reward on the "evergreen table" for example if we look back at Rotation C of Infested Salvage, we will see that it only has one evergreen reward, 300 endo, and it only drops it 14.29% of the time. My proposed change would be to split that reward into its own table, which, since it is only populated by 300 endo, would have a 100% chance to give 300 endo. Not only that, but there would be a 85.71% chance to get a SECOND reward on top from the non-evergreen table. The chance per run to get a Nidus part would still be 14.29% each, however when you get that nidus part you will also still get 300 Endo.

For the Sedna Disruption table the new tables would look something like this:

Spoiler

Rotation C/Evergreen (100.00%)
Axi A6 Relic	Uncommon (13.14%)
Axi B3 Relic	Uncommon (13.14%)
Axi A9 Relic	Uncommon (13.14%)
Universal Medallion	Rare (8.02%)
Axi G4 Relic	Uncommon (13.14%)
Axi T4 Relic	Uncommon (13.14%)
Axi T5 Relic	Uncommon (13.14%)
Axi A10 Relic	Uncommon (13.14%)

 

Rotation C/Non-Evergreen (23.52%)
Gauss Chassis Blueprint	Common (33.33%)
Gauss Neuroptics Blueprint	Common (33.33%)
Gauss Systems Blueprint	Common (33.33%)

As you can see with some basic math (23.52%/3=23.52%*33.33%=7.84%) the chance of actually getting the Gauss Part you need hasn't changed all I did was inflate the number on the evergreen table to fill the empty space left from removing the non-evergreen rewards and gave a percentage chance to get a non-evergreen reward equal to the old chance of getting a non-evergreen reward without caring what that reward was then inflating the numbers to fill out 100% without changing the weighting of those rewards (Yes, I did in fact choose this specific table because it made the math easier to do without mistakes). The biggest change is when a part drops you are also going to most likely get an Axi Relic with it, or maybe have a small chance at getting a Universal Medallion at the same time, this node suddenly becomes an excellent place to farm Axi relics if you are able to efficiently clear multiple C Rotations, helping to encourage an active veteran player base running this node, while new players are able to take advantage of this active player base of veteran players farming relics in their attempts to farm Gauss while getting some bonus relics along the way. The same effect can currently be seen on Uranus/Ur when players come here to farm for Neo Relics, while the newer players farm for the weapon blueprints here, which don't interfere with getting Neo Relics.

I repeat, evergreen rewards would be a sure thing, with non-evergreen rewards such as Warframe parts, weapon blueprints, or mods being an ADDITIONAL reward rolled independently and granted in ADDITION to the evergreen reward, in instead of. This would not be a reroll or a conditional substitution. This would purely increase the number of rewards given part of the time, and would not actually remove clutter from any of the loot tables, instead the clutter would be merely a "bonus" rather than something to be disappointed at getting instead of the more desirable evergreen rewards. I will also stress: THIS WILL NOT MAKE FARMING FOR WARFRAMES, MODS, ARCANES, ETC EASIER! THEY WILL STILL HAVE THE SAME CHANCE TO BE REWARDED PER RUN AS THEY CURRENTLY DO!

This is also no a suggestion on how to rework and improve the loot tables themselves. It is, exclusively and purely, a way to improve the quality of the end of mission rewards for things that you already get a lot of naturally. Loot table clutter and dilution is its own issue that is not solved by this alone, it simply mitigates the dilution when farming for relics, endo, credits, aura forma, or other such rewards. It doesn't mean you won't still be drowning in vitality from defense rewards, it just means you'll have a shiny new relic to go along with that vitality when you finish that defense rotation.

These type of "evergreen every time" rewards do already have precedent as well, the Focus rewards at the start of each Zone of Sanctuary Onslaught and the Cryotic from Excavation both already effectively do this, and really, spreading this in such a simple format to all game modes would really bring life to some more ignored game modes, because it might make them just rewarding enough to bother playing for a difference in the grind for various things rather than just not rewarding enough to bother with at all for these grinds. Warframe is a game where sometimes something simply is not efficient enough to do, despite being fun, when trying to make progress and this could help reduce that issue, while also helping new players get things like relics, endo, and credits more easily as they work through the star chart.

Also a quick note for scaling rewards that just now occurred to me: You could add a bonus chance to get an extra evergreen reward for each full rotation.

[Katinka]

In defence of Arbitrations, they always give Vitus Essence in addition to a reward from those tables, so they already do what you're asking for to some degree.  Whether or not they give enough Vitus Essence or if Vitus Essence is a useful enough reward is a different discussion.

[squirrel_killer-]

Just now, Katinka said:

In defence of Arbitrations, they always give Vitus Essence in addition to a reward from those tables, so they already do what you're asking for to some degree.  Whether or not they give enough Vitus Essence or if Vitus Essence is a useful enough reward is a different discussion.

While I didn't say it outright, the intention would be for game modes like say Excavation, Arbitration and SO that also already do this somewhat to still split there tables into evergreen and not on top of their current rewards. Though not clarifying that might have been a mistake on my part. Still, the Vitus Essence is honestly one of the least attractive things from the game mode, I found myself less interested as they added more to the tables since it all got in the way of the endo personally, but that is just me.

[DrivaMain]

Arcanes and some mods in arbitration are evergreen because you can trade it to another player for something else in return (mainly plat). Plus as the poster above said arbitration gives you 1 vitus per rotation completed.

I am not against the idea, but just to point out that arbitration is not as terribly diluted than other game modes.

[squirrel_killer-]

2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Arcanes and some mods in arbitration are evergreen because you can trade it to another player for something else in return (mainly plat). Plus as the poster above said arbitration gives you 1 vitus per rotation completed.

I am not against the idea, but just to point out that arbitration is not as terribly diluted than other game modes.

I agree, it is by far one of the better tables I chose, I picked it to point out that the thing it was supposed to do was getting diluted from. And yes, there is always "trade mods and arcanes for plat" logic, but that logic could be used to justify every mod as evergreen, we all know that doesn't quite work. Though I wouldn't propose these mods be any harder to get, it is why I made a point to note I didn't want this it damage the trade economy, supply of such mods should NOT be hampered at all. This trade economy is important to the game, I wouldn't have a 1/4 of the frame or weapon slots I do now if not for the games trade economy, and considering I own every prime and unprimed frame as well as all primed weapons, sentinels, and all variant weapons (but not their base versions I sold those off) I have definitely benefited from the wonderful trade economy, and believe all players should have the chance to benefit as I have.

I made a point to specify it shouldn't have been affected in the first paragraph for that very reason. However in general, outside of trade, mods are not evergreen, and this wouldn't make them easier or harder to get. I was very careful when designing this to ensure such things wouldn't get easier, it would be bad for the economy of the game and cause hyperinflation.

[Katinka]

5 minutes ago, squirrel_killer- said:

Still, the Vitus Essence is honestly one of the least attractive things from the game mode, I found myself less interested as they added more to the tables since it all got in the way of the endo personally, but that is just me.

I'm fairly sure I'm good for Endo until a lot more mods get added.  I gave Maroo a few Ayatans recently to get enough to rank up Primed Rubedo Lined Barrel and out of curiousity check what I'd get if I chucked everything I have at her.  About 12 million, without even bothering to socket them.  I don't even do that many Arbitrations because I generally dont like endless mission types!  That's also not considering what I could get from dissolving mods...  As to how much I need, I think I've got 14 Primed mods to rank still because they're not ones I use, and there's 4 Rare 10s I don't have yet, but that's still only going to cost about 1 million.  Vitus Essence would be the main draw for me (after I got the mods I don't have yet) but mainly because of the hope that it'll get me future additions to the Arbitration shop.  I should really remember to check Arbitrations more often and get back into the habit of doing them...

[master_of_destiny]

Stopping for a moment here, I disagree with your basic premise of evergreen.  Let me poke holes there.  

Endo / Ayatans - Pull out a calculator.  This can easily describe the exact point where endo is no longer useful.  It's a large number, but there are people with too much and too many sculptures lying around.  It is only as evergreen as new content somehow exceeding the passive gains.  I know of people, including myself, sitting on millions of endo with no use right now.

Credits - Good lord, there's a point break here.  120 million credits and nothing to buy.  I don't run the Index, and have only passively earned them.  Credits are not evergreen, they're also simply limited by content costs.

Relics - Maybe evergreen, assuming it isn't just standard drops.  If all I'm getting is another source for basic relics in this game it's not a draw.  

Materials - I have millions of virtually everything but argon.  There are plenty of other people in this boat.  It'd be different if these resources had a use, but we're back to the slow release of content making this less evergreen, and more white elephant.

Focus lenses - Again, something with a cap.  Once you reach the cap there's nothing to do but accumulate the stuff.  Between the lenses, and focus itself, this is a joke.  Just trying to grind out the Eidolons to get arcanes means that people have hundreds of spare shards which can be converted into focus without a daily cap.  

 

Now, I can't fault the rest of your statement.  The math isn't obviously broken, but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired.  Basically, if you listened to that discussion the loot checks are not bi-directional.  The client requests a loot drop from the server, and one is provided.  They specifically stated that the request loot drop, check against player inventory, re-roll as needed mechanic isn't something they can do at this time.  As such, the rest of the proposition is hypothetical at best and useless at worst.

 

 

What's my input?  The only two evergreen items are primed parts and rivens.  If you want evergreen rewards you've got to focus on these systems.  I don't mean just simple riven drops, but ways to modify interacting with the rivens once obtained.  Likewise, relics would have to allow transmutation of existing rewards or modified drop tables/chances for the relics.  That is literally the only thing that is evergreen in the game.  Everything else cited is just an artificially large cap, that most people don't reach due to the grindy nature of the game and insanely high cost to return proposition.  Heck, even rivens are locked to available slots and relics become fodder for ducats.

[Seankle]

17 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

They specifically stated that the request loot drop, check against player inventory, re-roll as needed mechanic isn't something they can do at this time.  As such, the rest of the proposition is hypothetical at best and useless at worst.

Why can't they do what they do with Relics now and allow the player to CHOOSE their reward(s) after the benchmark? Already got the Gauss part? Good, choose someone else's rewards for this period. Everyone rolls Gauss part and already has said part? It'd be cool if you could 'bank' it into a more radiant roll next go around. (I.E. everyone comes in with basic chances, one go-around and you opt out of rewards for a better chance at the higher table next go around, and eventually after so many re-rolls, you can almost guarantee the part you're looking for)

[squirrel_killer-]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

They specifically stated that the request loot drop, check against player inventory, re-roll as needed mechanic isn't something they can do at this time.  As such, the rest of the proposition is hypothetical at best and useless at worst.

Except I am not asking for bi-directional checks, rerolling or inventory anything, so that bit is meaningless. It is an extra roll entirely. A reroll preventing say, an extra copy of Adaptation, something you only need one of normally, would damage the trade economy of the game.

What I am saying is "I have Gauss, if I get a spare Gauss part it is credits at best, basically worthless, and that run was a wash." Now under the proposed system "I have Gauss. I still get Gauss part, but I get relic too, relic at least is ducats, plat or forma. I got some credits if I ever bother selling that Gauss part, but I still have relic and I guess I got a bonus Gauss part." The new player however is thinking "Oh yeah! I got a relic AND an Gauss part! This is great!"

This might just be a communication issue here, or you conflating this with or as an expansion of Brozime's rejected idea (Which the moment I heard him suggest it, as someone who does work in the industry on other games, I laughed and thought "Impossible with their current system" before Rebecca even opened her mouth to respond), and I won't blame you for that, I've done such myself before in actual design meetings. It is a forgivable mistake. I will chalk this up to communication error unless you see another issue.

To address the rest, yes you're right, everything is just an absurdly high limit rather than truly evergreen, and I added and removed endo, credits, lens, synthetic eidolon shards, and materials (including limiting it down to just things like void traces and kuva) a few times over the course of typing up the proposal. I decided to be more generous rather than less, as I said above "Give new players an edge in evergreen gathering item without impeding their ability to get non-evergreen rewards, while giving more veteran players the chance to farm for these evergreen rewards without the non-evergreen rewards getting in the way and as such keep these nodes and game modes fresh and alive without drastically damaging the existing trade economy for these non-evergreen drops." so I felt more generous was better than less.

I will admit, eventually we will all no longer need a thing. I am sitting on a few million kuva and have no more rivens I desire. You are sitting on a mountain of endo and will likely never actually need to get more. We both are likely sitting on thrones of orokin cells in a castle of credits, built upon a moon molded by melting down ducats. That is just where some players are at. Nothing will ever fix this problem truly unless they decided to make every resource like argon or added a durability system that drained our materials after every mission.

[Angwah]

Every property could do with a long hard look at itself and how it operates now and then.

RNG lootboxes ought to merit such a critical appraisal in a big way. If a player is looking at getting a specific drop from a particular table the only way is to repeat triggering that table ad nauseam until it gives you what you want. Because of this repetition, no matter how enjoyable at first, it will quickly about the reward itself, and hence efficiency. Every time the loot table denies you, you will have wasted time because by this system's very nature you will have made zero progression towards your goal. None at all. If RNG is being particularly ornery, well, that way lies frustration and burn-out.

Now, as a basic suggestion to try something else, take those tables and put them in the market. You run a mission, you get a mission token (spy, exterminate, disruption, assassinate, etc) and a tier token. Look at the % and calculate the average number of runs to get the item, price accordingly.

For example, let's say we're going after Ivara:

We need a spy token to access the spy reward tables and 11-12 easy tier tokens to get systems or 17-18 medium tier tokens for chassis (or alternaticely 13-14 Lua tokens), 19-20 hard tier tokens to get main blueprint and neuroptics. 

It would take on average the same amount of time, but with vastly more variation in what you can choose to do, no more grinding the same thing over and over and over, and every mission you do will reward you with tangible progression towards your goals.

Also add in kuva, credits, endo, affinity, focus (or lenses but not a fan of them in general), relics, traces, keys to open relics and pick your drop and every single mission gets you something, no matter where you are in your progression. Higher tiers would award more of the 'evergreens' obviously. 

Seems to me the only way to break open the star chart again and allow the players the freedom to pick what they like to do at that particular moment in time instead of funneling them into the handful of options we have now.

[DrivaMain]

20 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Every property could do with a long hard look at itself and how it operates now and then.

RNG lootboxes ought to merit such a critical appraisal in a big way. If a player is looking at getting a specific drop from a particular table the only way is to repeat triggering that table ad nauseam until it gives you what you want. Because of this repetition, no matter how enjoyable at first, it will quickly about the reward itself, and hence efficiency. Every time the loot table denies you, you will have wasted time because by this system's very nature you will have made zero progression towards your goal. None at all. If RNG is being particularly ornery, well, that way lies frustration and burn-out.

Now, as a basic suggestion to try something else, take those tables and put them in the market. You run a mission, you get a mission token (spy, exterminate, disruption, assassinate, etc) and a tier token. Look at the % and calculate the average number of runs to get the item, price accordingly.

For example, let's say we're going after Ivara:

We need a spy token to access the spy reward tables and 11-12 easy tier tokens to get systems or 17-18 medium tier tokens for chassis (or alternaticely 13-14 Lua tokens), 19-20 hard tier tokens to get main blueprint and neuroptics. 

It would take on average the same amount of time, but with vastly more variation in what you can choose to do, no more grinding the same thing over and over and over, and every mission you do will reward you with tangible progression towards your goals.

Also add in kuva, credits, endo, affinity, focus (or lenses but not a fan of them in general), relics, traces, keys to open relics and pick your drop and every single mission gets you something, no matter where you are in your progression. Higher tiers would award more of the 'evergreens' obviously. 

Seems to me the only way to break open the star chart again and allow the players the freedom to pick what they like to do at that particular moment in time instead of funneling them into the handful of options we have now.

I would definitely want that, but we all know DE is a bussiness not a charity. Hence, they probably won't even consider it. RNG needs to exist in F2P games to urge players to spend money to get the item they want instead of farming for it. If DE implements the token system everywhere players will just casually farm the items and not spend their money.

What we can do is tune the RNG down, not removing it completely.

[Angwah]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

I would definitely want that, but we all know DE is a bussiness not a charity. Hence, they probably won't even consider it. RNG needs to exist in F2P games to urge players to spend money to get the item they want instead of farming for it. If DE implements the token system everywhere players will just casually farm the items and not spend their money.

What we can do is tune the RNG down, not removing it completely.

Eh, I doubt it. RNG in no way needs to exist. RNG is just a way to create scarcity, and to pace handing out your reward. That said conditioning with a random reward-scheme is stronger which is why I mentioned this is a basic suggestion, one where all RNG is stripped out. You can inject some into mob drops and in the tokens themselves for example. Sometimes more, sometimes less, mix in some other fun and rare rewards (forma blueprints, riven slivers, etc) to give you that 'yes!', fist-pump dopamine rush without messing with the steady reward scheme.

Endo you can get in Arbitrations, credits in the Index/Profit-Taker/Railjack, kuva in the Siphons/Floods and some Kuva Fortress missions. Nitrait, some formas of different types and potatoes from Nightwave. Prime stuff and ducats from fissures. None of these evergreens (yes, some last longer than others) are walled behind a too obnoxious RNG lock. One might say getting a specific Prime set is, but that is until you get over the barrier of running whatever relic you want, exchanging what you get for plat on warframe market and exchanging the plat for what you actually need.

Because for some reason DE doesn't implement an ingame auction house. If they don't think an ingame auction house can not be used to entice players to buy and need more platinum than they do now, well, they lack imagination.

But anyway, back to the topic at hand. The evergreens are not truly RNG-locked, they just force you to play specific missions until you are sick and tired of them, no pay to skip option for most of these exists anyway. And the moment one of these evergreen rewards goes dead drop for you, your choice of missions gets smaller yet again. A token/shop approach would not, on average, take less time to farm a set or rare item. Pay to skip is just as enticing as it was before. Perhaps even more if you think about it a little more because many of those drops you get along the way, while not what you were after, are not per se dead drops. You may get what you want, but not what you might want down the line.

There is actually a lot of opportunity for microtransaction here!

What this mostly sidesteps is being forced to repeat the same mission till you can dream it and the statistical outliers of RNG screwing you over (or blessing you of course on the flip-side). It makes everything playable again. Sure, some mission types/planets/modes may be more efficient for certain types of rewards, but every mission played should leave you with at least some progress in what you are currently pursuing, allowing you to pursue fun and enjoyment, perhaps at even a bearable cost of efficiency. As the system is currently implemented this is not really an option.

To return to the business model. Time invested remains the same, and skipping that, along with vanity items, is what you pay for in Warframe. I promise you that if you have to pay to skip frustration and burn-out/bore-out too often more people will actually hit the uninstall button before coughing up again. Actually this is why so many friends who started with me dropped out. RNG and being forced to repeat the same content too many times because the jackpot says no, while there was still so much content left to explore for them. And dropped-out players do not buy anything.

And boy, if you start now there is just sooooo much to do and explore, but it gets tainted for new players (and veterans I suppose) because you don't get to play it in a varied way. If you do that in the current game the opportunity cost is immense. This is not a call to give players all rewards without putting in any effort, this is a way to put in the effort to get the rewards by playing a wider variety of missions and more incremental, controlled sense of progress than an all-or-nothing jackpot.

[Katinka]

8 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

They specifically stated that the request loot drop, check against player inventory, re-roll as needed mechanic isn't something they can do at this time.

I'm not so sure Rebecca was correct when she said that.  Take the various scannable lore items, Granum temple and Ghoul lore fragments as examples.  For each of them we can get a new bit and the game knows what the next part we need is and tells us immediately.  How can it know which plaque of Parvus' life it needs to give me and which audio to play without checking what I already have (or to give me Credits if I have them all)?  I'm also fairly sure I've played Ghoul bounties in which my friend got a lore fragment as a reward for a stage while I got a Relic, because I had completed the lore.  I think the game can do that already and in the case of Ghoul bounties does do that already.

[master_of_destiny]

8 hours ago, squirrel_killer- said:

Except I am not asking for bi-directional checks, rerolling or inventory anything, so that bit is meaningless. It is an extra roll entirely. A reroll preventing say, an extra copy of Adaptation, something you only need one of normally, would damage the trade economy of the game.

What I am saying is "I have Gauss, if I get a spare Gauss part it is credits at best, basically worthless, and that run was a wash." Now under the proposed system "I have Gauss. I still get Gauss part, but I get relic too, relic at least is ducats, plat or forma. I got some credits if I ever bother selling that Gauss part, but I still have relic and I guess I got a bonus Gauss part." The new player however is thinking "Oh yeah! I got a relic AND an Gauss part! This is great!"

This might just be a communication issue here, or you conflating this with or as an expansion of Brozime's rejected idea (Which the moment I heard him suggest it, as someone who does work in the industry on other games, I laughed and thought "Impossible with their current system" before Rebecca even opened her mouth to respond), and I won't blame you for that, I've done such myself before in actual design meetings. It is a forgivable mistake. I will chalk this up to communication error unless you see another issue.

To address the rest, yes you're right, everything is just an absurdly high limit rather than truly evergreen, and I added and removed endo, credits, lens, synthetic eidolon shards, and materials (including limiting it down to just things like void traces and kuva) a few times over the course of typing up the proposal. I decided to be more generous rather than less, as I said above "Give new players an edge in evergreen gathering item without impeding their ability to get non-evergreen rewards, while giving more veteran players the chance to farm for these evergreen rewards without the non-evergreen rewards getting in the way and as such keep these nodes and game modes fresh and alive without drastically damaging the existing trade economy for these non-evergreen drops." so I felt more generous was better than less.

I will admit, eventually we will all no longer need a thing. I am sitting on a few million kuva and have no more rivens I desire. You are sitting on a mountain of endo and will likely never actually need to get more. We both are likely sitting on thrones of orokin cells in a castle of credits, built upon a moon molded by melting down ducats. That is just where some players are at. Nothing will ever fix this problem truly unless they decided to make every resource like argon or added a durability system that drained our materials after every mission.

So here's the deal, editing large strings of commentary makes it impossible to highlight exactly what I was having an issue with.  As such my response is going to be vague rather than a quotation of the exact phrasing, or citing what might have been interpreted differently.  

 

Your current iteration of the proposal is to functionally double rewards (potentially) with two loot rolls.  I'm behind that in theory, but it's time to be real.  If you effectively add more potential loot drops DE is going to balance by decreasing the percentages or the values of the drop.  In very round numbers, twice as many drops would mean half as much on the rewards.  Yes, the math is off here, but I need it to illustrate the point without going into deep numbers.

So, the first drop is guaranteed.  I'm going to use 50% drops here, for ease of math.  Drop 1 is 50% endo, 50% part.  In any 4 runs statistically I get 2 parts and 2 endo drops.  Let's call each of these drops under the current system 100 endo.  That means 4 runs = 200 endo.  Now let's include a second roll, and call it 50% endo 50% nothing.  The possible combinations are P-E, P-N, E-E, and E-N (p=art, e=endo, n=nothing).  This means that each endo drop must decrease from 100 to 50 just to be the same value.  That's not much of a reward when you get P-N, and it's only what you got before with E-E.  So, is it actually rewarding?  I'd argue not, because it's not actually giving you more and the decreasing values eventually approach what a random container drop offers.

 

So, I cheated above.  I used a 50% drop rate, which is huge.  Let's look at a 10% drop rate.   If you ever actually want that second roll to matter it needs to appear about 50% of the time or more.  With a 10% drop rate at 100 endo the average is 10 endo per run.  Add in the second loot table, and you've got to divide that 100 endo amongst 6 drops, where each drop basically would be 16 endo.  Remind me, the basic RNG endo drop is 15, right?  That would mean the best reward scenario would be 32 endo, or basically two RNG drops.  That doesn't seem like much of a reward to me.

 

What are the counter points?  Well, 100 endo is too low.  The counter to that is to examine our current drop tables....yep, they include that quantity.  The next step is that it won't always be endo.  Yeah, I'm fine with that.  The counter is that the further you dilute any rewards pool the smaller the reason to do that specific mission.  The last counter is that some reward is always better than no reward.  While technically true, I'd highlight that 1000 credit caches exist as rewards.  You'll note that I haven't addressed simply increasing the rewards offered.  I haven't because DE is play time driven, so increasing rewards would effectively be detrimental, so the assumption is that the new balance would have to maintain the same current rewards on a mathematical average.  In other words, the solution can't simply be to add more drops or more to the drops.

 

 

Regarding the substantial edits...I cannot reasonably have a discussion here.  You've literally changed the context of pretty much everything, and my previous response now looks to be to nothing.  That's the problem with substantial edits and context being removed.  I am assuming that you are acting in good faith, and I should also have to explain my edit.  To the later, I changed "pint" to "point" because I fat fingered the word.  Regarding the difference in understanding, memory suggests that you offered the statement that if you already had Gauss, there'd be a replacement from the evergreen so there wouldn't be a feeling of loss.  I can't really highlight this, and the response is that bad actor or good, no counter point is anything viable either.  As such, the only reasonable response is "fine."  Changing goal posts make any conversation different, when so much is maleable.

I'd also offer that some people collect multiple copies of a frame.  I do.  If you ever sell the frame, you can build a new one without having to figure out the latest farm.  My perfect example, Limbo.  When it came out the extractor missions could be completed again and again until all the parts were built.  I did enough to get 4 copies of the frame, built one, and had a spare waiting around.  I sold the original because release Limbo was trollframe.  It got a rework, so I rebuilt him.  This was before Simaris, so I'd have to have bought him with platinum if I wanted him back at that time.  

 

 

Finally, the waffling on what is evergreen.  I don't care what you want, and I don't care what I want.  My point is what is always useful in the game.  Endo has a cap, based upon mods, hence it is a finite requirement.  Ditto with focus.  Kuva and relics are the only thing consistently requiring grind.  The former is because of the wonky way rivens work, and the theoretical perfect roll on statistical types having the potential for terrible values which would necessitate another pull of that cycle slot machine.  While you may be good with what you have, it is unlikely you got a perfect roll,  This is how you can endlessly use kuva to seek the perfect stats and numbers on rivens.  The relics are the source of prime content, prime junk to convert to ducats, and the traces required to modify drop rates to decrease the grind.  They are thus evergreen because even once you have all the prime gear you still have to grind to pay for whatever Baro is bringing.  That doesn't cover player-to-player sales for platinum, because this is reliant on a deep player base...which warframe is having some issues maintaining in the last few years.

For some levity, you want endo.  I want enough resources and blue prints to be able to craft anything within 84 hours (12+72 on frames), assuming another rework happens and certain weapons become meta.  You'll note that my goals are not evergreen, and I don't respect them as such.  I will argue that these types of goals keep the game viable, but they definitely aren't rewards DE should ever focus on giving.

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, Katinka said:

I'm not so sure Rebecca was correct when she said that.  Take the various scannable lore items, Granum temple and Ghoul lore fragments as examples.  For each of them we can get a new bit and the game knows what the next part we need is and tells us immediately.  How can it know which plaque of Parvus' life it needs to give me and which audio to play without checking what I already have (or to give me Credits if I have them all)?  I'm also fairly sure I've played Ghoul bounties in which my friend got a lore fragment as a reward for a stage while I got a Relic, because I had completed the lore.  I think the game can do that already and in the case of Ghoul bounties does do that already.

Do you have a dojo, and have you partaken in the insanity of the pigments?

 

This was highlighted, that certain items can be flagged to potentially drop.  Regarding the fragments, you'll note that you don't get fragments 1, 2, or 3 of a lore piece.  You get dot 1, dot 2, and then completed for whatever lore you are currently working on.  I'd suggest this is player based, and the drop is in fact relic unless player has available drop for fragment.  There shouldn't be a player check back to the server, only a choose item x which has been changed by the client to be a lore fragment.

I could very well be wrong on this front, but it's cited as the same with groups and pigments.  Go to the plains, slay a dargyn, and the pigment drops for me but nobody else can see it (I am borrowing what was said in the discussion here).

[Katinka]

2 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

This was highlighted, that certain items can be flagged to potentially drop.  Regarding the fragments, you'll note that you don't get fragments 1, 2, or 3 of a lore piece.  You get dot 1, dot 2, and then completed for whatever lore you are currently working on.  I'd suggest this is player based, and the drop is in fact relic unless player has available drop for fragment.  There shouldn't be a player check back to the server, only a choose item x which has been changed by the client to be a lore fragment.

I'm not sure how that contradicts anything I've said though.  So the game says I got 'item X' and my client interprets that as the next thing in line, be it part 4 of fragment 2 or part 3 of fragment 7, or the next complete lore fragment and a decoration in the case of Granum lore, or an evergreen reward (relic for Ghouls, credit cache for Granum) rather than being a specific fixed item common to all players, fair enough, why can't that system be used elsewhere though?  Why did I get 3 of the new shoulder armour from Granum Void if they could clearly set it up to give players who have that a specific other item?

[master_of_destiny]

On 2020-07-01 at 12:22 PM, Katinka said:

I'm not sure how that contradicts anything I've said though.  So the game says I got 'item X' and my client interprets that as the next thing in line, be it part 4 of fragment 2 or part 3 of fragment 7, or the next complete lore fragment and a decoration in the case of Granum lore, or an evergreen reward (relic for Ghouls, credit cache for Granum) rather than being a specific fixed item common to all players, fair enough, why can't that system be used elsewhere though?  Why did I get 3 of the new shoulder armour from Granum Void if they could clearly set it up to give players who have that a specific other item?

Here's my interpretation of what is going on.

In the case of the Granum Void you complete the mission.  The amount of rewards is based upon performance, and at the end of the mission the client requests x number of rewards from the server.  One request, for a set amount of rewards.

In the case of the dyes there is an initial flag at the beginning of the mission, which says an enemy has a roll for the items to drop and allows for a second roll for the dye to drop.  Likewise, the plains rewards for ghoul purges has the roll for a drop, and the client can determine whether to offer the lore fragment (if the flag is present) or the relic (if not flag is present).  There's still only one loot request, and DE has no issues with the rewards being an issue because the rewards are capped at a single one.  As such, letting the client decide isn't an issue.  This is likely why the OP suggested a second drop roll, and is not inherently a bad idea (but the results as outlined would make it non-viable). 

 

Let's say that the solution is to make this like relics....bad idea.  Problem one is that the missions don't have a pause button, and a 10-20 second wait for people to choose an items means death.  Problem 2 is that you effectively increase the rewards rolls from 1 to 12 (4 people, 3 rolls each).  Problem 3 is that if the void functions even less on RNG there'll be no reason to go back and run the same mission a dozen times. 

Yeah, hands raised if you killed 50+ Thumper Domas before you got one Corrudo blue print (raises hand in frustration).  Hands up if getting all the Gladiator mods took more than a year due to bad RNG rolls.  Hands up if you remember the initial mechanic of catch fish, get standing, buy bait blue print, build bait, grind more standing, fish, buy another blue print, craft new bait, grind standing, buy appropriate spear, and finally come back at a certain time to fish for the thing you actually want.  So, that whole system is out (I did focus on the Plains here, because it emphasizes the design issues, but could have cited Octavia, Harrow, or Nidus).

 

What about the double loot rolls on potential blue print drops, or replacement of blue prints with other rewards thereafter?  Well, Mirage.  Again, some history.  Mirage released, and was the first warframe that could not be farmed.  You build it, and if you sold it there was no way to get another unless you paid platinum.  It took years to get Cephalon Simaris to start offering blue prints, so that now you can build a Mirage if you sell it.  DE could do the same thing, right?  You can earn one blue print through gameplay, then have to do Simaris to get another, with the rewards table permanently replaced.  Well, no.  If you did that the mission literally has no purpose after you get the blue prints.  Why, well there's a lot better ways to farm endo.

 

 

Boiling all of the responses down, you've got a few points.

1) If the rewards were to be doubled, they'd have to be so small as to not be rewarding.

2) If you replaced the rewards after getting one with endo there'd be no reason to return.  Yes, I have multiple one shoulder only decorations too.

3) If you want the prime style loot choices it couldn't happen on anything with multiple loot rewards, meaning you could only get one reward per run...which may be better than 3 rewards but would make it so that any blue print roll would be even worse.

4) DE will not support changes that diminish grind, especially after they put out Grendel and this.  One requiring multiple arbitrations only to strip you of everything, and the other with an 11% drop chance for a minimum mission run time of 5+ minutes.  Yeah, no.