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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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2 hours ago, --Raid-Master-Qued said:

They are nerfing an OP interaction. Why people hate nerfs?

Because we've been watching too much YouTube and do not like the direction DE is going with bulletsponge mode.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

honestly I dont see why exalteds just dont get same mods all melees can use and or have a no melee equipped mode like garuda has 

Probably because that would involve buffing Wukong, and DE hate buffing Wukong.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

It solves the problem of abnormally high usage by making people go back to their weapons instead of flocking to the Xoris as if it was the only weapon in the game because of an extremely convenient buff that doesn't take away Zenurik from you.

It's a bit rash to cry 'abnormally high usage' in the case of a weapon that just recently released and provided a brand new gimmick for people to play with. It's new, of course people are playing around with it. But eventually some would go back to their rivened statsticks, some would go back to other frames that don't care about melee counter, and only some would stick with it on a daily basis.

Besides, much like Xoris, Zenurik is only convenience. A player that's sufficiently far in the game doesn't need it, there's plenty of other ways to ensure abundant energy. Xoris allows you to keep that non-essential convenience, but it's still a damage loss - it's no great disturbance of balance.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It solves the problem of abnormally high usage by making people go back to their weapons instead of flocking to the Xoris as if it was the only weapon in the game because of an extremely convenient buff that doesn't take away Zenurik from you.

Because balancing and bad pseudo exalteds getting some QOL be damned when Khora can BDSM her way to the top without it right?

Edited by Geraion
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1 minute ago, kerespup said:

The people calling DE bad devs because of the Xoris nerf really have no idea how balancing a game works and are far too entitled to their own one trick pony builds.

A lot of games do balancing, Warframe hardly gets to do that because of community crybabies.

If this were any other company or game, you'd have balancing patches that make every meta user cry. Take a look at games like League of Legends, or heck even MMOs. They always do balance patches to promote variety and not force people to stick to one build for years.

It's because of players like these why Warframe gameplay can become so stale with everyone using the same damn builds over and over again.

If this was any other game, they'd disable the character and disable the item immediately until the hotfix comes out. Just be glad you got to experience and play it.

The only reason certain people are pissed is because they're too reliant on gamebreaking bugs and exploits for their "fun".

Warframe became stale during the time that certain metas dominated.

1. Mirage with Simulor

2. Catchmoon

3. Kuva Bramma

Get over it already, balancing is a necessary thing in a game. Not balancing anything just makes the game stale and die faster.

It's their aproach to balancing that is the issue. When content is hard, DE only attempts balancing when something makes the game EASIER. they dont care if you need to optimize and restrict your choices for the game to barely be playable.

There's different ways to approach balancing, Just nerfing whatever is strong is the worst of them. Adressing WHY players are abusing something is better than bandaiding it.

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Why you guys just do not make Warframe Exalted Abilities / Exalted weapons moddable separatly (like Garuda's Talon, Valkyr's claws, Mesa's Peacemakers) instead of relyng on stats stick (like Atlas landslide or Khora's whip)?

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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It solves the problem of abnormally high usage by making people go back to their weapons instead of flocking to the Xoris as if it was the only weapon in the game because of an extremely convenient buff that doesn't take away Zenurik from you.

Oh yes, solving a problem of xoris being overused by forcing players to switch back ot their mires and jaw swords and overuse them instead. Big brain problemsolving right here.

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ok so we wanna nerf something ive used on 2 frames ...id expect this if it made more of a difference but it really doesnt so seems each time something turns out so have a slight advantage for people you want to change it ...you can send me back the 3 forma i put into this otherwise useless weapon we got for free ...if its not riven nerfs or just trashing the weapons all together cuz the stats say its used way too much ....this is getting worse not better

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This was kinda expected, 

I am actually pleasantly surprised by the relatively quick turnaround this time, only a month since release I think? 

Oh wait it's only been a few days since the public test cluster where you observed the way by which players could dish out the highest damage with the tools that exist.... 

I wonder if there is a correlation or a coincidence. 

I am joking, of course there is a connection. Maybe it will be one more reason to have test clusters in the future before releasing new mechanics. 

 

I am personally happy with the changes, even if my comments may seem to imply otherwise.

I do wish you had considered the implications when you actually released the mechanic of the xoris, this just strengthens the perception that DE does not play its own game. 

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2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Special note: Gara’s Shattered Lash will now scale with Melee Combo Counter, to be consistent with Khora Whipclaw and Atlas Landslide. The same Xoris restriction will still apply

Very niceeeee...finally xd

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In my opinion, the crux of the issue here is the bad design that is the combo counter mechanic.

The combo counter encourages a restrictive gameplay loop, in that you must keep using one tool of your arsenal to keep it powerful (and anything that gets boosted by it) and discouraging the use of other ones, lest you possibly lose all your power. Further, the incredibly broken multipliers from a high combo exacerbates this problem even further.

Xoris got rid of this issue, which is why it was so popular, and allowed you to use things freely without worrying about losing your strength for not using something enough.

Personally, I would recommend looking at the combo mechanic; possibly even getting rid of all the scaling combo multipliers other than heavy attack (incl. BR/WW), as the combo counter is most not certainly used in its intended way, which is doing damage with your melee weapon and then using the built-up combo for a finisher heavy, and just ends up narrowing gameplay for most people who want to be efficient, "removing choice", as has been said by developers in the past.

While things like Naramon exist, it's somewhat telling that someone would hinder their ability in other areas just to be able to keep their combo counter at 11x+. It's just bad design in my opinion.

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State of Gladiator set (Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds) interactions w/ melee abilities and exalted weapons :

Before :
- w/ melee abilities : can benefit from gladiator set, blood rush & weeping wounds, based on melee combo count
- w/ exalted melees : can benefit from gladiator set, based on Exalted melee combo count
 - w/ Garuda's Talons : can benefit from gladiator set, blood rush & weeping wounds, like any other regular melee weapons would do

since Deadlock Protocol & after :
- w/ melee abilities : nothing changes, but using Xoris means the combo count will be reseted after the first hit done with said ability
- w/ exalted melees : now only benefit from Gladiator set based on the combo count of the melee weapon, and not the exalted melee combo count. will also reset after first hit with said exalted melee if xoris is being used
- w/ Garuda's Talons : now doesn't benefit from either of Gladiator set, Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds (despite being able to equip both Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds) , as there is now no melee combo count to base those buffs on.

The issue with the new system and Xoris is about :
- Khora's Whipclaw abusing of Xoris to keep use of Gladiator set, Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds, because of its high base Critical Chance & Status Chance, unlike Atlas' Landslide's.
- Khora's Whipclaw, Ash's Bladestorm, Atlas's Landslide & Excalibur's Slash Dash abusing of Xoris because they benefit from combo count multiplier.
- All exalted melee weapons abusing of Xoris because of Gladiator mod set bonus applying to them (except Garuda since she can't equip both at once)

And that's fine, it is an actual problem.
But Garuda's Talons inability to work like a normal melee weapon go under the radar?

Also mentioning that Garuda's Talons (is the only exalted weapon that) still cannot be used for any weapon-restricted missions, as :
- in the case of a melee only mission, Garuda isn't eligible to enter the mission, as she has to not equip a melee weapon to be able to access her Talons.
- in the case of other weapon restrictions, despite Garuda not bringing and/or not equipping a melee weapon for the mission, she will not have access to her Talons during the mission.


Also mentioning that equipping Gladiator mods on Titania's Diwata counts towards the set bonus, unlike other exalted melee weapons ; while equipping Gladiator mods on Garuda's Talons does not count towards the set bonus.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Greetings, Tenno!

Within The Deadlock Protocol Quest brought the Xoris: a Glaive weapon capable of chaining Melee Combos infinitely. The design intention behind the infinite combo mechanic was predominantly added for the Granum Void’s charged throw moments, to allow you to retain your charges until you were ready. This mechanic opened up new avenues for Melee builds to maximize this infinite Melee Combo Duration, which is great! 

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon, and the conversation of ‘Xoris or you’re doing it wrong’ is greatly restrictive in terms of player choice. This was our oversight, our mistake, and we apologize for the time it took to formulate a plan and address this. So let’s break down our plans:

Our plan is not to nerf the base powers of the Warframes involved, or the Mods that amplify the issue (Blood Rush / Weeping Wounds / Gladiator Mod Set), as doing so isn’t fair as it’s a reaction to a single weapon. In turn, we have planned to only change the interactions with the Xoris directly. 

The first issue: The Xoris’ infinite Melee Combo Duration directly amplifies the Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities that won't reset/decay unless you detonate the Xoris manually using heavy attack, or if you die. Thus scaling with Warframe Abilities that are amplified by your Melee Combo multiplier (Ash Blade Storm, Atlas Landslide, and Khora Whipclaw), and even more so when equipped with Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds.

The second issue: The interaction with the Xoris and Gladiator Mod Set for Warframe Exalted weapons. The Gladiator Mod Set bonus is being carried over from the equipped Melee to the Exalted Warframe weapons such as Baruuk’s Serene Storm, Excalibur’s Exalted Blade, Valkyr’s Talons and Wukong’s Iron Staff.

The solution: The change coming with The Steel Path Update is to have the affected Warframe Exalted Abilities / Exalted weapons reset the Melee Combo Counter ONLY if the Xoris is being used. What you’ll see now is the Critical Chance bonus applying to the first hit on abilities that are intended to scale with regular Melee Combo Multiplier, but then the Melee Combo is reset by the Ability, and does not apply to subsequent hits unless you build it up again with Xoris itself. Exalted Melee ultimates will reset the Xoris' Melee Combo Counter at the time of cast. As stated above, we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole. 

In conclusion, Warframe Abilities / Exalted Warframe weapons affected by this are:

  • Ash Bladestorm
  • Atlas Landslide
  • Baruuk Serene Storm
  • Excalibur Exalted Blade
  • Khora Whipclaw
  • Valkyr Talons
  • Wukong Iron Staff

 

Special note: Gara’s Shattered Lash will now scale with Melee Combo Counter, to be consistent with Khora Whipclaw and Atlas Landslide. The same Xoris restriction will still apply.

TLDR: Certain Warframe Abilities and Exalted weapons will reset the Melee Combo Counter only if the Xoris is being used.

We’ll be continuing to observe how the Xoris interacts with the above when The Steel Path Update arrives in your hands, and our apologies again for the wait. 

Thank you!

So i just wasted my Umbra Forma on PS4 last night. Thanks for the uPDaTe. This absolutely should have been communicated before console launch. Or 6-12 months from now to let people who've invested resources actually be allowed to have a modicum of fun first. /facepalm

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

As stated above, we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole. 

When it comes to Khora (and probably Atlas, and soon Gara?), Xoris actually adds build diversity. You may not see it because youtube videos are largely promoting Xoris Khora builds, but there are ways (and advantages) to accomplish the same results of Xoris using Naramon (which before Xoris was the only option).

Advantages of Xoris:

  • You can use Zenurik.
  • You get a better Naramon Power Spike for free.

Disadvantages of Xoris:

  • Bad Riven disposition weapon.
  • No weapon augments that add damage or other effects (yet).
  • IMO: I don't like the melee attacks of Glaives. They feel awkward! I like using Rakta Dark Dagger and it feels better and faster at building combo (and it has some nice special secondary/syndicate effects!).

Advantages of Naramon:

  • More melee affinity.
  • You can use better Riven disposition weapon for more damage on Whipclaw and similar abilities.

Disadvantages of Naramon:

  • You need to be more careful with energy (Equilibrium/Synth mods are a cool/fun workaround in ESO!).
  • You need to mod your frame for efficiency.

To me this look like a fair trade off. And it looks like build diversity. By removing Xoris' effect for Khora, Atlas (and soon Gara), you herd everyone back to Naramon alone which is not what you claim you want.

Edited by nslay
Change terminology for disposition (never clear if it's low or high).
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

It's a bit rash to cry 'abnormally high usage' in the case of a weapon that just recently released and provided a brand new gimmick for people to play with. It's new, of course people are playing around with it. But eventually some would go back to their rivened statsticks, some would go back to other frames that don't care about melee counter, and only some would stick with it on a daily basis.

Besides, much like Xoris, Zenurik is only convenience. A player that's sufficiently far in the game doesn't need it, there's plenty of other ways to ensure abundant energy. Xoris allows you to keep that non-essential convenience, but it's still a damage loss - it's no great disturbance of balance.

 

9 minutes ago, Geraion said:

Because balancing and bad pseudo exalteds getting some QOL be damned when Khora can BDSM her way to thw top without it right?

 

8 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

Oh yes, solving a problem of xoris being overused by forcing players to switch back ot their mires and jaw swords and overuse them instead. Big brain problemsolving right here.

That's true for every single new weapon though, yet you don't see Stahlta, Stropha or Velox every time you go to ESO or Kuva Survival. 

What's different about the Xoris? An extremely convenient buff. A buff so convenient that people are OK with lower damage. I'm pretty certain that DE saw a usage spike for Xoris that was abnormally high even within the context of it being a new weapon.

Nothing but convenience, yes. But an extremely valuable type of convenience. So valuable that it was standing out.

Catchmoon. Kuva Bramma. Xoris. Whatever comes next. When anything is extremely convenient, people flock to it as if it was the only thing in existence. This in turn leads to a nerf not because of it being powerful, but because of how desirable it is over the rest even if less powerful.

Edited by Jarriaga
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And now we are forced again to run naramon so that we reduce the  combo problems.Those exalted melee have the worst combo count because they does not have alot of hits per seconds or they just have projectales that does not collect combo.Also the Xoris was never the best stat stick for min max damage for khora or atlas.

But i think this is warframe with each update it ruin the enjoyment i mean come on why don't you just do a buff rahter then a nerf

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So for Ash the Xoris is going from second place behind Venka P. to 'why would I ever use this?'.

Thanks to Rising Storm being buffed to glory it's easy as hell to gain full combo count stacks with bladestorm. Get a weapon with an increased combo count chance riven and you can go from 0 to 220 in less than 5 seconds. The only thing Xoris had going for it was the fact that it didn't decay, but it's not difficult to maintain your combo and if it drops it only takes seconds to get it back up.

Xoris already negated the passive combo duration from Rising Storm, but thanks to this update now it negates the combo chance benefit as well:

Quote

the Melee Combo is reset by the Ability, and does not apply to subsequent hits unless you build it up again with Xoris itself.

So we have to build it up again with the Xoris despite Rising Storm being designed to build the combo count through bladestorm.

But wait, it gets worse. Now only the first hit of bladestorm is going to gain combo count benefit? You can mark multiple enemies multiple times but only one hit will be buffed? There's nerfing something, and then there's making it utterly useless. This is the latter.

In short, Ash didn't gain much at all from the lack of a combo count timer since Rising Storm makes it so easy to build it back to max. With this change though, Xoris negates all of Rising Storm's benefits, nerfs bladestorm's capacity to deal damage, and becomes the worst possible choice for a stat stick. There is no reason for Ash to be on the list of frames affected by this.

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Bunch of clowns thats what the balance team for warframe has become, now I will need to buy or roll a riven for one of the better statsticks in order to enjoy khora again, cause we cant have good things apparently.

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Any player with a good head on their shoulders would have realized how broken the Xoris interaction was and would have realized it would be nerfed. Neither Warframe nor the Content Creators need to refund your Forma.

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The fact that you state this "restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others" shows you do no testing whatsoever. Xoris was a pretty mediocre choice as a statstick since they are based in specific weapon mods and good riven disposition, two things that the Xoris lacks. The infinite duration was just the easy lazy option, not the one that gave the best performance.

It's true it could give an advantage to some frames with modded exalted weapons, but that could be addressed without killing the weapon.

 

The only thing you made with this adjustment is making the weapon unviable, an inferior choice overall and wasting our forma and time.

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32 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Well it only took about one and a half weeks for videos of the build to start popping up on former partner channels that leaves a few days of discussion since no working on weekends they are in Canada after all and do like to avoid Crunch. Factoring that and other possible bugs and issues on the work docket with setting up the hard mode test cluster. So yeah.

Also you keep adding criteria there, first it was play the game, now its play the game like people who do nonstop for their twitch viewers. Or do you have something else for me to rationalize into the light?

On the day Deadlock released, someone from the Warframe Twitch channel was in leamxp's channel, where he demonstrated using the Xoris with Baruuk, so it was within hours that someone saw the interaction.

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