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[DE]Megan

Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons

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2 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

They already buffed excal. It's called baruuk.

i do use baruuk on pc, but im a die hard excal umbra nut on xbox, and i can still beat my pc damage so meh , but my builds are weird

i did have a doc for a rework idea , its gotten lot's of positive input and feedback  

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Honestly wish these weapons were migrated  honestly wish these abilities were moved to more like the Gaurda model. Just treat the weapons like full out regular weapons and can be modded like the normal weapons.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

i do use baruuk on pc, but im a die hard excal umbra nut on xbox, and i can still beat my pc damage so meh , but my builds are weird

i did have a doc for a rework idea , its gotten lot's of positive input and feedback  

I have excal as the most used frame myself, i'd love to see buffs too, or even better, a proper rework, because excal, while isn't exactly bad, is hella outdated. But at the same time i don't believe they'll be able to come up with a rework good enough to make him worth using over buffed baruuk. Baruuk's 4 is just better in every way possible other than restraint stacking gameplay loop.

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3 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

They already buffed excal. It's called baruuk.

baruuk is tanky but his exalted cant even touch exalted blade. I hate playing excal and love baruuk but their ults are not even in the same tier. Thats just my opinion though i could be building poorly so i dont want this to be “i am right and you are wrong bow before this paragon of knowledge” i just personally dont think baruuk is an excal buff he is his own thing entirely. Sorry if i came off as a jerk here at all btw

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No fun allowed we get it but why not look at these thing before you release the weapon in the first place you could avoid all the salt but at least you learned something from the last time you nerfed warframe abillities because of *one* event wich should have been reverted.

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Just now, reaper10678 said:

baruuk is tanky but his exalted cant even touch exalted blade. I hate playing excal and love baruuk but their ults are not even in the same tier. Thats just my opinion though i could be building poorly so i dont want this to be “i am right and you are wrong bow before this paragon of knowledge” i just personally dont think baruuk is an excal buff he is his own thing entirely. Sorry if i came off as a jerk here at all btw

Baruuk's 4:

- does more damage overall because of crit and ability to build for more power/damage

- arguably better augment

- lower damage falloff (i think at least)

- way better energy waves (they are hitscan, compared to excal's slow as hell 15 m/sec and have hitboxes wider than wisp's backside, as a result can hit the whole group at once, while excal's energy waves are relatively narrow)

- probably something else that i can't remember off the top of my head

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what I can't even kill the first specter you fight in the deadlock protocol and that was my strategy knock their health/sheilds down with exaulted blade and then use xoris to get past that next part

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I don't see how this is necessary in any way, the Xoris did not increase damage output over any other melee weapon it just makes it easier to keep the combo counter up. I get the exact same damage output using any melee and naramon focus school. If anything, this just limits us to going back to venka prime for the stat stick since it goes to 13x combo, and I was more than willing to give up that 1x multiplier for the quality of life improvement that was the Xoris.

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5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

 

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon, and the conversation of ‘Xoris or you’re doing it wrong’ is greatly restrictive in terms of player choice. This was our oversight, our mistake, and we apologize for the time it took to formulate a plan and address this. So let’s break down our plans:

 

The issue is, yes, it was best way, as it allowed us to ignore stacking combo duration, and it allowed us to use a different focus school to achieve same effect. Changing Xoris will change NOTHING in terms of damage output, because exactly same damage output can be achived with either Naramon or adding more combo duration instead. 

 

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

 and does not apply to subsequent hits unless you build it up again with Xoris itself.

 

And this is why this whole patch changes nothing too, If you allow us to keep the combo if we use the xoris to build it up, the end result will be same, we will just use xoris to build up the combo and never actually detonate it. Unless you mean to make it so:
After each use we lose all the melee combo like we do if we used a heavy attack. 
That will be a direct nerf, and we both know it. 

Changing this particualr thing about Xoris will have no effect, and it will still be optimal weapon as long as you allow us to maintain combo in any way at all on the weapon. The only way to make it non usable is to make exalted abilities to not scale with mods on the weapon at all. Or to make ti so exalted abilities are not effected by mods such as blood rush, Nerfing them. 
If you want to fix this issue, Nerfing Xoris is not the way. someone previously mentioned adding selerate moidding window for the weapons, and that would be the best solution. 

Atlas would benefit from that greatly, as his exalted weapon is very particular seeing it has mostly impact, and there is no weapon in the game that benefits from impact to such extend, so giving him his own exalted weapon modding capability will allow him to keep a Fully functional melee weapon AND keep his exalted fists functional too
Gara is already plenty powerful, But seeing how her weapon has a lot of slash, she probably wont care too much either way. But that will allow for people who want to use different weapons than crit/status hybrids to use her ability and a separate melee weapon.
Khora is probably one that would not be affected, Her ability scales VERY well, and to the point where if we make her moddable separate, it might actually hurt her as she benefits significantly more from blood rush+Weeping wounds on her melee, making it easy to stack up and maintain without it being restricted to stacking it only with abilities.

To keep this short: What you are doing will only make it more clunky and no less powerful. 

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1 minute ago, GREF_TM said:

Baruuk's 4:

- does more damage overall because of crit and ability to build for more power/damage

- arguably better augment

- lower damage falloff (i think at least)

- way better energy waves (they are hitscan, compared to excal's slow as hell 15 m/sec and have hitboxes wider than wisp's backside, as a result can hit the whole group at once, while excal's energy waves are relatively narrow)

- probably something else that i can't remember off the top of my head

-(i could be wrong not sure) i usually get higher damage from excal because of crit/status with Condition overload and stealth from radial blind. You can also hit with both the waves and the sword itself for even more damage. Baruuk also uses the restraint meter instead of energy and that is extremely inconvenient. 
 

-the augment is not better in all cases as it takes away the ability to consistently proc what you want to proc. It is adaptive, that sounds better and it can be, but in practice it is also kind of a side grade to excals. 

-i have no idea on that one

-aiming with excal is not hard at the range were it is possible to hit with baruuk. 
 

-ok cool that isn't a valid argument

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And just like that, another weapon I sank time and resources into will get tossed into the garbage. At least this time I get to throw it in there like a discus.

 

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Posted (edited)

You definitely don't like us to enjoy something we discover and like...now this is beyond clear.

I have an even better solution for this kind of "Tencent like things".....just test things BEFORE launching; I save hating you, and you save your playerbase keep going down, and everybody´s happy.

Regards.

Edit: give me back my 5 forma please

Edited by Lessiem
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Seems like the proper way of nerfing it. I find it funny that in the past you would nerf everything and now you have to actually create a post saying look guys we're not nerfing exalted melee just the xoris interaction.

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Posted (edited)

So we all saw this comming but given that exalted weapons no longer have their own combo counter can we talk about the fact that with this change exalted weapons are literally missing an entire mechanic? short of a bandaid fix of using naramon thats really just another kind of neccesary just like Xoris is/was. With 20+ forma in Valk at this point her talons are pretty strong but post melee 3.0 I can make goddamn ether sword stronger than them and honestly its kind of sad to see exalted weapons being left behind like this. (To be fair we're talking level 1000+ enemies here but it still shouldn't be the case that beginner melee's can outperform weapons that cost 15e/sec just to hold.)

Edited by AtraUnam
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5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Giving the Xoris combo duration kills the intended design for the Granum Void, which in turn affects The Deadlock Protocol quest. The idea of an infinite combo duration weapon opens the door for some cool builds, but we don't want the Xoris to be the only way to play.

Why not just give every melee weapon infinite combo duration and balance around that instead? Combo duration makes combat clunky, not interesting. The Xoris fixes that, that's why it's such a beloved weapon.

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I've posted a couple of times already but... Let me explain a bit more of my position on this issue.

I'm a Valkyr main and my play-style is very melee focused. I tried out the Xoris because hey, infinite combo counter and Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds aren't disabled? Awesome! But even with the best glaive stance in the game it just felt awkward to use. I found that I did less damage with Xoris than I did with other weapons that had comparable stats, and the attacks often left me open to taking more damage than if I had chosen something else with better blocking potential. So, I didn't like it enough to keep using it. I wasn't aware the gladiator set bonus could even apply to Hysteria at all, and I'm not really using a Hysteria-focused build, so it wouldn't matter that much anyway.

Furthermore, I found Xoris' behavior in the granum void to be unpredictable; more often than not the weapon hindered rather than helped my progress, given the lackluster spawn/time drop rates making group success hit or miss and solo essentially impossible without a nuke frame. The time it takes to throw the weapon vs how much time you have to get to X kills is simply prohibitive (unless someone out there is a god at getting glaives to perform as intended every time).

So, taking all of those factors into consideration, my main concern with the changes to Xoris behavior DE is announcing here is how pervasive the change is in their source code. More complex changes where specific caveats to specific loadouts are introduced would typically create a higher surface area for bugs and unintended/unexpected behavior. Which, given the mediocre performance of some exalted weapons already, and the timing of the change coinciding with the release of a 'hard mode' would make any side effects, such as unpredictable combo counter behavior when switching between normal and exalted melee weapons particularly devastating for the average player of those warframes.

While I haven't actually seen Warframe's source code, I have seen patterns in the way changes have been made and bugs introduced and fixed over the years that allow me to make a somewhat educated guess at the basic layout involved. I think an alternative strategy, such as making the infinite combo counter work only in the granum void, and have a long or decaying combo counter for normal missions, would be a preferable in terms of both user experience and maintainability.

Just as an example, making exalted weapon casts reset the combo counter of the underlying melee weapon only when that melee weapon is Xoris feels unsatisfying and inconsistent with the behavior of all other melee weapons. It also adds the potential for that behavior to bleed into ALL melee weapons, such as what happened when a timer was added to reset the combo counter when you switched to operator form. If you switched back fast enough, some parts of the timer still applied, leading to a condition where all damage bonuses were reset even though the combo counter hadn't.

Another thing that I'm not sure the devs have considered is how the change they've announced would affect the granum void. Suppose I decide to use an exalted weapon while in there and wanted to use the Xoris heavy attack right after? With these new changes, the combo counter would have reset and I'd get no benefit from having previously built it up.

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xoris sucks as a stat stick, jaw sword and mire are better. No one says xoris or you're doing it wrong.

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42 minutes ago, RL_Fyrguson said:

Why are y’all so fast to hotfix the things that work too well but take a year to fixes the things that don’t work well enough? 

Because fixing something is hard, but ruining something is easy.

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Now that this interaction was brought to the backyard with the boomstick, when are Exalted Melees ever going to be able to use Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds finally?

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6 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

It's our mistake that the infinite combo resulted in these scenarios, and I understand why there is frustration around it. As said above, we didn't want to make an overwhelming nerf to Warframe abilities/Exalted weapons across the board, so we decided to only change the interaction with Xoris directly. 

or why not just make the melee combo counter not apply to exalted weapons instead of making xoris unusable for atlas, baruuk, khora ,excalibur, valkyr, wukong, and ash?111

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They don't need to "nerf the base powers of the Warframes involved" because those were already nerfed into the ground. Exalted weapons, particularly Exalted melee weapons, are laughable next to regular weapons, which is especially sad given that they are generally their Warframe's ultimate abilities. Please DE, before "fixing" anything else that might help Exalted Weapons be useful, please make them useful on their own. I posted this list of suggestions in another topic, maybe (not likely) it'll get some traction here:

 

Quote

 

The problem isn't that Exalted Weapons, including the Iron Staff, CAN'T be viable, it's that there is no point in using most of them, specifically the melee weapons, over regular weapons. The problem is that they are typically these Warframes' ultimate abilities and they don't feel like it. These weapons cost energy to use and don't really justify it.

First, stat-wise, most are solid, but nothing exceptional and they should be exceptional. I think every Exalted Weapon should have one or two exceptional stats. For example, I think Wukong's should be range, if there is one melee weapon in the game that should be "room clearing" it should be the Iron Staff (I am going to continue using the Iron Staff as my primary example as I think it got hit the worst).

Second, prohibited mods, why? What is the justification for not being able to use Acolyte mods, Amalgam mods, set mods (set effect), etc.? The Gladiator set effect was "fixed" recently so that you can no longer build its set effect using exalted weapons when you have them slotted on either your melee or on Deconstructor. Why? That at least gave some parity between regular melee and exalted melee but no more. Also, there are no Rivens for Exalted Weapons, limiting them even more compared to regular melee. Honestly, just removing the mod restrictions would go a long way.

Third, secondary effects. Some are useful (Valkyr and Baruuk), while others (Excalibur and Wukong) are kind of just there. I'm not saying everything has to be the level of invulnerability but at least something more interesting would be nice. Maybe for Wukong, when his Iron Staff is out, he spawns additional Celestial Twins (one or two), also armed with Iron Staffs.

Finally, some of the Augments could use a re-work, nothing crazy, just a bump here or there: Primal Rage should have a higher cap for its critical chance increase (1.5 to 2x); Chromatic Blade and Reactive Storm could use a bump in their status bonus (again, 1.5 to 2x) (side note: I would also love to see the use of the secondary color to make combined elements (Viral, Corrosive, etc.) for both Chromatic Blade and for Chroma); Enraged would be really good without the cooldown, or at least not as long a cooldown; Hysterical Assault is just kind of "meh"; etc.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

No, it just means we have to go back to only using the Venka Prime, because it's the only other weapon with a positive interaction with pseudo-exalted weapons.

No build diversity is increased with this change.

I never post on these forums but I'd like to humbly request that the community come together to oppose nonsensical nerfs like these. It's unnecessary and actually limits our options in terms of focus schools rather than the restrictions highlighted by OP. Furthermore, the Xoris is nowhere near the best stat stick for frames like Khora; any min-maxer worth his salt knows that. Weapons with high Riven dispositions give massive buffs to melee stat sticks compared to the Xoris' gimmick. It's unfortunate, but this is just another example of a mechanic that was poorly thought through and a lack of gameplay understanding from the Devs. The mere fact that these pseudo exalted abilities even require so much help from a min-maxed mod setup to be "endgame" viable, is evidence of lackluster mechanics and scaling.

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6 hours ago, --Raid-Master-Qued said:

They are nerfing an OP interaction. Why people hate nerfs?

Because its the only weapon that can make atlas viable. I don't want having to consistently build combo just to make landslide viable

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