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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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Stop, stop stop. This was already available through Neramon. The Xoris didn't make the damage higher, it just made something you could already do with focus available without having to grind a specific tree! The same damage will remain available, you just have to pop out and do a regular melee before the combo runs out. That's just annoying.

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vor 22 Stunden schrieb [DE]Megan:

The solution: The change coming with The Steel Path Update is to have the affected Warframe Exalted Abilities / Exalted weapons reset the Melee Combo Counter ONLY if the Xoris is being used. What you’ll see now is the Critical Chance bonus applying to the first hit on abilities that are intended to scale with regular Melee Combo Multiplier, but then the Melee Combo is reset by the Ability, and does not apply to subsequent hits unless you build it up again with Xoris itself. Exalted Melee ultimates will reset the Xoris' Melee Combo Counter at the time of cast. As stated above, we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole.

While I get that OP things like this which narrow the effective variety of weapons down can be nerfed, this nerf here feels like being punished for using a certain weapon in combination with abilities. I can still run body count + naramon school on any melee with a good riven and make exalted abilities OP. I just need to hit a few times with the weapon every few seconds to keep the combo counter at 12x bonus. However, with the ability resetting xoris combo to 0, xoris now actually is a worse choice than any other weapon.
How about making exalted abilities count as heavy attacks instead? So that it would either reset every combo counter to 0 or you still can use zenurik school and reflex coil to compensate partially for that. I get that a nerf is required, it just feels a bit overnerfed right now.

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13 minutes ago, LiveMk555 said:

I don't see how the Xoris is restrictive in player choice

It becomes restrictive when it's the only way to make certain warframe abilities viable. Take Excalibur's exalted blade, for example. I stopped using Exca because I felt he was underperforming when compared to other damage-dealing frames; but when using him with the Xoris, I was almost one-shooting lvl 160 heavy gunners  with his ult. And the things is, you shouldn't be forced to use a specific item combination to make him useful, he should be able to stand on his own. And leaving the Xoris as it is would create even more specific and restrictive meta builds. And if you add the fact that using the xoris with other already super-op warframe skills was making them even more broken, I think that removing that sinergy was the right choice.

Edited by General-Pacman
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6 minutes ago, Princess.Celestia said:

Fun fact. They actually did try nerfing her years ago. She came out without the target reticle for the ult. Could clear rooms just by activating the ability basically. How did they think about balancing it? Adding a shrinking target reticle and making it so that she can't just have the screen facing an enemy to kill it. You just have to "aim." Good nerf because it didn't really do anything. If only their "nerfs" could be like what they did to Mesa many years ago. :^)

I think this nerf happened in 2015, hence the "five years".

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18 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Warframe0168.jpg

- He was Saryn.

- He killed more than double the number of enemies. 

- I was not using the Helios/Deconstructor stat stick.

- I was not using the Xoris, so no infinite combo counter bonus.

- I did 96% damage at half the number of enemies. That means I was literally doing over 60 times his damage.

- Now imagine the Xoris being involved, freeing me from Naramon and combo duration mods for even more damage or energy with Zenurik.

Come on dude. If that is not overpowered then nothing is.

Essentially all you're showing is that "Damage Dealt" is misleading/pointless. If there are two enemies each with 100 health and you deal 900 damage to one and your teammate kills the other with 100 damage you've done 90% of the overall damage but you've functionally done 50% of the damage as there was only 200 enemy health total. So in the pictured example, you may have done 96% of the overall damage but you did (very approximately) 33% of the functional damage.

In a game where the vast majority of content prioritizes the number of enemies killed over how hard you killed them this basic trade-off between total damage vs. the number of targets seems reasonable. If the game only showed the amount of health damage done instead of the sum of total calculated damage the "damage dealt" statistic would more accurately reflect the actual gameplay impact. Assuming this was ESO the gameplay impact the picture shows is that with all the extra damage, you did ~1/2 as well as this Saryn at the actual gameplay objective of killing as many enemies as fast as possible. The only cases in which Khora becomes the more "optimal" choice for killing efficiency is when EHP is so high that millions of damage are required, which are arguably edge cases.

Now even if you think that everything I just said was stupid and that Khora still does too much damage, consider this. On these khora setups, Which a player capable of achieving probably has hundreds of hours invested into the game, the xoris version will deal less overall damage than a rivened stat stick using naramon. The xoris was a quality of life choice that traded some damage to not worry about combo meter at all. I'd speculate the people who already had high end stat sticks setups didn't switch to the Xoris. So at worst it allowed the player to skip/put off the naramon focus grind and get a little extra convenience earlier than otherwise. Nerfing the Xoris interaction does not address the "overwhelming damage output" by the pseudo-exalted abilities, the explicitly stated reason for the nerf. This level of damage could be achieved through different means that have existed significantly prior to the Xoris. While I understand that overhauling the pseudo-exalted abilities by making them directly moddable or otherwise would likely require much more development time this is pretty clearly a reactionary, bandaid nerf as opposed to an actual fix of the problem that's supposedly being addressed.

If the nerf had instead read something like "we're disabling the Xoris interaction so people don't invest in it while we look at overhauling these abilities" it would seem a lot less like a knee jerk no fun nerf than this which doesn't address their stated contention and only adds what will become an obscure, specific interaction that isn't inherently obvious.

 

 

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22 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon

You are incorrect. Infinite combo DURATION, does not affect combo scaling to infinity. We're still doing the same damage, but without the need to use naramon, or quickly popping out melee to refresh the combo. One of DE's biggest oversight is how most exalted melee weapons are inferior to regular melee solely because it can't use "+x% scales with combo counter" mods. The second oversight is how players are never going to use heavy melee attacks because building combo is the most tedious thing we nobody wants to do. The only time we actually waste combo for heavy attacks is when we make minimum combo duration and build for initial combo.

I sincerely hope that "nerf" should be properly considered before actually patching things. If you want all weapons to compete the same, then the proper solution would be to make a mod that does exactly what naramon does: instead of instantly losing all combo, lose 20 combo instead to instantly make all melee as viable as Xoris.

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You guys dont even know how your game work. The Xoris does not give you any more dmg. People use it for convenience of not having to care about keeping the combo counter up THATS IT.

Get a good Riven and you will out dmg the "Xoris build" All you´re doing with this nerf is making this weapon a mastery fodder. You can keep this weapon like it is and add a mod that give you infinite Melee Combo Duration and the Xoris would be useless too. ITS THE infinite Melee Combo Duration that people care about.

 

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22 hours ago, Malziel said:

will DE be addressing the fact that Riven Mods on stat sticks for Khora / Atlas / Gara still give their massively increased bonuses to Warframe Abilities? I feel like that has been a much larger and more noxious issue than the Xoris' hilarious fun Big Number Effect.

Yeah, why should I need a riven to get the bigger numbers?

Also, the Xoris didn't even have that great of damage, and from what I've seen, Riven mods with stats that are better than multiple primed mods is far better than anything the xoris did, minus the combo going away after ~15 or 30 seconds.

I don't want to be forced to use a Riven just to do big number damage. I just want to use the good mods on the exalted weapons so then we can have good exalted weapons that are obviously better than their counterparts because, after all, they're ABILITIES, no? Aren't they meant to be top of the line weaponry only a select few warframes have mastered? So why can't exalted weapons use Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds? It just feels wrong to me.

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I assume it may be a technical limitation or oversight. But it would be nice if the exalted melee weapons and melee abilities could build and maintain combo counter on their own and use all melee mods like blood rush.

It feels like there is a lot of consideration to not nerf Khora. But her and some other warframes were decently outperforming frames like Saryn and Mesa in the hard mode test. I am perfectly fine with Khora's power level atm. I do think Baruuk, Excal, etc could use the kind of buff I mentioned. But with the stipulation that if any frame's top end is drastically too high it may need to be brought down a bit.

This is a pve power fantasy game, if there is still frame diversity, it seems fine to me if frames are degrees stronger than others. Especially if they are highly optimized (formad, modded). If they can face roll trivialize high end content, then it should probably addressed; by making content not suited to them or a bit of nerfing.

The xoris nerf feels like it missed the mark trying to stop interactions that should be in the game. Essentially a quality of life nerf. If the xoris is heavily used it will get a 1 star riven disposition. I think it would be good if the infinite combo duration stayed affecting warframes. It gives players more reason to try out those frames. But I am fine if it leaves as well is just seems misguided.

 

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It is not "indisputable best performance". That isn't just disputable, it's flat-out wrong. It has absolutely no more power as a stat stick than any other melee weapons. Many melee weapons are significantly better, like Mire or the Venka Prime. This nerf already feels terrible as a player who made the mistake of investing time into the Xoris, but it's borderline insulting when the stated rationale is essentially gaslighting the players.

It isn't strangling player choice. It does not outcompete any other stat stick during active play. If it is overrepresented, which is not the same thing as strangling player choice, it's because it is new and easily available, and if it's symptomatic of anything, it's a symptom of the combo system and/or the functionality of stat sticks.

I understood the Catchmoon nerf (although ironically the un-nerfed Catchmoon is already outclassed by power creep now). This isn't a Catchmoon situation. The Xoris is a weapon where you trade away power for some convenience. All you have to do with other, better stat sticks to compete with it (to outclass it even) is keep your combo up, which there are several ways to do.

As a player, what I am taking away from this is that I should once again be careful not to get excited for new weapons unless they are thoroughly unexciting. If they have a unique feature that makes them exciting, even if it doesn't increase their power (despite all the power creep that the game does pursue), I should assume that it will be nerfed in some way. I should not invest my time into the game when a new weapon looks desirable. I should treat them the same as any other mediocre new weapon, maybe level them once for mastery, then log out. Which maybe I should have just done anyway - I have a Mire (with a riven!) and a Venka Prime, so it wasn't like I actually needed the Xoris. The uniqueness of the weapon got me interested enough to keep playing, to level it, to forma it, to figure out how I wanted to build it, to figure out what frames I wanted to use it on, and I guess I won't make that mistake again.

I once again regret time I spent playing Warframe, leveling and earning and adding forma to my Xoris. After the fiasco that was Scarlet Spear, Deadlock Protocol was supposed to be a return to form - I was hoping not to feel like I had wasted hours of my time and effort again, but here we are. There are a lot of other games out there that manage not to make me feel this way every few months.

Edited by Modus-Pwnens
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dont change its... this weapons is such a huge QOL improvement...

now with normal weapons and exalted weapons not sharing combo is so annoying. the work around is to create a statstick wep that has a 30s combo duration and return to that weapon every so often to keep up the combo.... it just makes the mechanic a chore.  make a shared combo meter to level the playing field

maybe change the xoris to have a longer passive combo meter of like said 30 seconds...so it frees up a mod slot.

thats my 2 cent. current changes are a step backwards 

 

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This post is just extremely reactionary. misinformed and gives no other way to look at it as DE trying to protect Riven Markets to get more plat bought. Extremely disappointed in removing the QoL feature (Any mire riven gives more damage than Xoris ever could). Just revert the change, because I don't want to keep counting in my head to hit another enemy in the game (maybe most of the time enemies just dont spawn properly) in Warframe just to get to the correct combo counter I have got to. Revert the change, Dramatically increase combo counter time (maybe just get rid of that useless mechanic) or make it go down over time and not to start at the 0 hits

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Ok i know now why this is getting nerfed. Because its hurting the riven market. And this is bad for des income because people will use xoris instead of buying plats for riven. Ok i understand that. I have nothing against de when it comes to money. As a matter of fact i want de to make more money. They desrve more. So okay i get it. Do what you must de.

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22 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon

The damage provided by Xoris is ON PAR with most other weapons you would use for this purpose. The only reason people are using the Xoris so often is because the infinite combo timer is CONVENIENT, making it so you don’t have to reset your combo timer every 5-30 seconds by swinging your melee. Rivens have been doing what you claim the Xoris is doing for AGES, but you don’t seem to have a problem with them.

Edited by HowWesWasOne
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22 hours ago, --Raid-Master-Qued said:

They are nerfing an OP interaction. Why people hate nerfs?

What op interaction? the infinite Melee Combo Duration ohh yeah convenience is sooooo op. You dont get any dmg from it.

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Back in the day the devs always favors and prioritizes the players fun factor that is why they added alot of things like the parkour 2.0 and even some silly things like the zenistar and chroma delux skin bug. Nowadays de has made alot decisions some are good but others may have caused a little itch in terms of life quality convenience. Alot of things has changed throughout the years and we stick with them with all of their decisions because we love their game all of their hardwork we appreciate everything that they did. But somethings such as this nerf is a little bit unnecesary. They will take away everything that makes the xoris special and turn it into a weapon that we will only use for farming protea and after were done using it we will just leave it and never even dare touch it again. Sometimes its just nice to have a variety of weapons to use. Korra and baruk are the reason why they want to kill this weapon but why? Isnt it nice to have 1 weapon to give us a little bit of convenience? Because there are other ways to make baruk and korra to have those same damage outputs, but isnt it better to have another way for others to enjoy those same results and for more players to have a reason to use xoris on their main loadout? Anyway its not a big deal but its just me trying to voice out my opinion on this matter. Whatever their decision is up to them but i just want to say what i felt about this. Thank you.

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15 hours ago, TheMasterSwordMaster976 said:

that sounds like an even worse change to xoris, and would kinda defeat the purpose of having infinite combo duration in the first place

Depends on how often it blows up and what prevents it. If you can maintain a decent combo count by preventing explosions by throwing a charged shot once every few minutes then no, it doesnt.

 

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