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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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So you're also making so that rivens don't affect abilities as well, right? Because people be paying 3000p for a "god riven" for those abilities and that is fine because it is IRL money?

Also I want my invested Formas on the Xoris back. I fully expect the refund of those. Thank you 

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So before I rip into this I want to make two distinctions

1) Xoris is not a direct power upgrade to exalted/pseudo exalted weapons like this post seems to state.  The only way you can twist this as a "power" upgrade is if you argue convenience is indirect power.  Which is correct, but not what DE made their case on.

2) Xoris is the only weapon that effectively doesn't have a combo counter decay.  The decay is a trade off.  Your weapon can get more powerful if you can keep hitting things.  So in a vacuum looking at JUST this sentence one could understand why having something get the benefits of the combo counter without the drawbacks would be a problem.  The issue is that this isn't a self contained problem.  And it knocks on pain points for the game of which i'll get into but first..

Xoris is NOT a good melee weapon.  This isn't to say it's bad either but glaives are not meta weaponry.  There's nothing about it stat wise that makes it worth picking over other stronger melee catagories.  At most Glaives are used for gimmicky builds.  This needed to be stated simply because DE is advertising the weapon as a problem when it's not.  The problems are with certain aspects of the game and Xoris just happened to be a teeny tiny bandaid.

 

Rivens:  This will be the first point as imo it's the most important one.  And even if DE doesn't back track on this change this needs to be taken care of.  HOWEVER you look at this supposed "new" power that it brings DE doesn't like it's implementation by it indirectly effecting warframe powers.  So I pose the question, WHY do rivens do?  They have literally since their inclusion.  Rivens are not meant to work with WF abilities.  However you feel about rivens themselves (I think they're bad personally) this isn't something that can be debated.  DE doesn't want Xoris effecting warframes.  What Xoris did for abilities is what a riven will do for any stat stick for the same abilities.  If DE doesn't want this exact same interaction happening then rivens need to be made to NOT effect WF abilities.

 

Pseudo exalteds:  If I can recall correctly the melee counter was given to said abilities specifically to make them capable of damaging decently.  This was DE's half way solution since exalted weapons got to have their own modding section.  They specifically gave exalted weapons their own moddable section so we could move away from "stat sticks" and melee weapons could be used for their intended purposes in gameplay.  Many people have been largely upset that these abilities still have this old problem.  Xoris effectively removed needing multiple stat sticks for different weapons because the convenience it gave out weighed the preference based choices with other weapons for stat sticks.  By removing Xoris from the field you're putting a lime light back on this age old problem which really should be addressed since you have frames like Khorra and Atlas who are literally built around attacking that way.

 

Exalted weapons:  It has been discussed to death on the state of said abilities since they were made.  As is exalted weapons do not outshine standard weapons.  This is by in large due to the lack of shadow debt mods (at least for melee based exalteds.)  A partial work around that's been around for ages is stacking the gladiator modset on a stat stick just so said exalted weapons could have a taste of the power that regular melee weapons have.  Xoris effectively became the best stat stick because of the flexibility in modding due to it's unique gimmick.  By changing this at all you're drudging up topics that have gone relatively not discussed for several months now.  As in "why use an exalted when my weapons are better?"  "why can exalted weapons not use shadow debt mods?"  etc.

 

Summary:  Xoris has brought some sembelence of a fix to a handful of player perceived problems that have been long standing.  DE's measured response cannot be appreciated regardless of how tactful it may be simply because at the end of the day DE is removing a solution.  Not presenting one.  Had DE managed to address these concerns in another fashion even if said solution(s) wouldn't be immediate along side this change I doubt they'ed be under fire over this.  The way the post reads can be taken as misguided/misinformed on the situation as a whole at best.

To reiterate, I think everyone is fine with Xoris being "fixed" even if it means the weapon will fall into the abyss of other niche weapons.  The problem is DE isn't addressing the problems the Xoris kind of sort of fixed in some capacity.  It doesn't help that their post can be read to be spreading false information to justify a potential knee jerk reaction to it's spike in usage.

Edited by (XB1)Knight Raime
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1 hour ago, Zapats said:

actually that last bit is also complete garbage

 

what we shouldnt be able to achieve high damage because this gamemode is supposed to be harder? isnt the point of steel path to skip to the hard part so powerful frames can shine? or is the steel path just a time sink for players to stay distracted while DE works on the next update like a bad arcade machine draining quarters 

Sure, it´s garbage, but i could at least understand this kneejerk reaction to some degree if DE is afraid of Xoris statsticks "trivialising" the Steel Path. I was on the test cluster and the fact that they didn´t just increase the initial level of enemies but also added double health and sortie modifiers made me think that it´s supposed to be more of a gear check hurdle for veterans than "alright, here have high level enemies without having to wait for an hour". Which i disagree with btw.

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19 minutes ago, Silvertap said:

Well, have u saw how people have been doing Hard Mode? It is a small change, but will have great impact in hard mode, i think. Also we have convenient things in game, and it is already a huge problem, yes.

The damage was not nerfed, but the convenience was, otherwise there is no point in been angry, or complain about the nerf. The convenience for too strong builds should be avoided, we already have to much overpower in game, if it could make this overpower not so simple to be used, in my aponion, it would already be a big improvment...

What in Clem are you going on about here? "The convenience" was the only reason people used the Xoris, do you not understand this? Xoris infinite combo dura, Naramon combo passive, combo duration mods. If you remove the gimmick from the Xoris and people still want to use this weapon as a stat stick for some reason, guess what they're going to use. Naramon combo passive or combo dura mods. What has the Xoris lost? It lost the ability to be a stat stick because it can't perform as an alternative against rivened monster stat sticks. Hell it can't do that even as it is now.

The Xoris is the MOST popular stat stick because 1) new players can get a hold of it early and the Xoris can count as baby's first stat stick. And 2)Vet players can take Xoris into lower level missions and not have to worry about the combo counter since everything is one shot anyway. If im doing a 2 hour endurance run, there is no way i'd take the Xoris, it'll be my stat stick and Naramon combo passive because the damage is meatier, i get access to an on demand Ultimatum and I like my red crits.

This nerf is knee jerk reaction at its finest.

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Xoris didnt need to be changed. Give up higher dispo weapons for higher damage for a smoother, less damage, lazier experience was the trade off. This should have been addressed way before console release if this was going to happen as ALL experienced players saw this coming. Makes melee focused classes actually fun to play. If xoris is gonna be made pointless for general gameplay, at least give exalted melees ability to use all mods making normal melee selection less relevant for those specific warframes.

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29 minutes ago, PADORU__PADORU said:

Takes a lot to get a lurker and occassional visitor like me posting. While I think I can see what DE is thinking, I must say their phrasing is very worrying.
There were/are memes that DE acts as if it doesn't know or isn't aware of how their game works, and the phrasing in this post (sad to say) goes some way into proving the point.

To adress point 1),
-It is the Combo Multiplier that amplifies damage.
-The Xoris' Combo Duration adds a lot of convenience.
-Riven mods, with the disposition for equipped melee weapon affect some warframe abilities.

To address point 2),
-Exalted weapons have a max of 60 mod capacity, where normal weapons have a max of 74 mod capacity.
-Exalted weapons cannot use equip Bloodrush or Weeping Wounds.
-Though to be fair and play Devil's Advocate, Power Strength affects Exalted Weapons.
-Will Venka Prime's extra Combo Multiplier be removed from Warframe Abilities?

'Xoris or you're doing it wrong'. I would contend that there are multiple options.
-Amphis Riven Stat stick
-Kogake Prime (passive speed buff) with or without a riven
-Telos Boltace (passive bullet jump buff)
-Venka Prime (thus far, it has a higher dispo than then xoris)
-Xoris
-Gladiator Rush + Naramon to preserve combo counter

However if the use of an infinite combo duration with well established in game synergies was so offensive, I am left wondering why
-DE made the weapon which such a mechanic so readilly available 
-DE didn't make the infinite combo duration apply only within the Granum Void
-DE didn't just give all Warframe Abilities their own separate combo duration

Now this is where I start putting on my tin foil hat. If (emphasizing again), IF there is an outcry from some portion of the community, complaining that something is too OP, then I suggest that DE finds a better balance between a vocal somewhat uninformed minority and what I intelligently assume to be a quiet majority. 
Or if DE is just realizing the synergies they have given us, I suggest that DE take a pause to look at all the tools players have to maximize damage (in solo and in a fully coordinated squad of 4) and ask themselves if they want such power to exist in the game or not 

Ok my real tin foil hat speculation is on now.
Xoris nerf and PC riven trade data missing as per
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1077490-riven-trading-toolbuilders-phase-1/page/8/

DE trying to stop potential loss of plat from riven sale? No complaints if this is the case, easier for me to make plat
 

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A weapon that wasn't OP at all, and just a nice quality of life, if being nerfed, and now all the forma i used for my atlas landslide build are wasted. Thanks DE for fixing something that doesn't need a fix, while leaving a lot of other problems on the side.

This wasn't necessary AT ALL

" directly amplifies the Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities"
Also, this is 100% wrong, please play your game instead of looking at statistics.

Edited by Zack
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I almost never comment on topics but I just wanted to say the new build possibilities thanks to the oris actualy had me downloading the patches and looking forward to getting back into warframe after a long break but now I think I will just uninstall again, I really dont understand why you seem to hate fun, its a single player coop game, there's no need to nurf the fun out of it

Edited by Zim88
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This nerf is ridiculous. EXALTED WEAPONS ARE AWFUL. PERIOD. THAT IS ALL.

The Xoris was one of the ONLY things that kept exalted weapons good, something which was even possible before this change just with extra levels of jank - yknow QOL stuff. Absolutely absurd that a thing that from what I can tell is a QOL stat-stick update is now being nerfed because it does 'too much damage' when there are alternatives that do more damage for the same exact builds.. You do realize that Mirage, Chroma, Banshee and similar damage buffing frames can hit damage cap without rivens on low power weapons? But if the exalted weapon does too much damage - sorry nerf. Ridiculous. DE if you are going to keep releasing untested weapons that break the game, maybe test them some more? Or just look at the stats of bramma and realize holy this will be powerful. Or the tonkor or the simulor or the atteraax or the scoliac or the telos boltace or the zenistar or a plethora of other weapons released, people invested in, then were nerfed because they were too powerful in a game with banshee and octavia in it. Sure.

Edit: Kill the fun out of a game about space ninjas, big damage numbers, and fun mechanics. We dont need fun, or challenge, because warframe is warframe (and is losing concurrent players by the day).

Edited by Holo
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I just want to say again I hate this post. Sure we knew this was likely, and no one is really surprised. But it is totally tone deaf to what players want and does nothing to address bigger problems in the game. 

You pitch Gara benefitting from combo as if it was not a bug that kept her from using it before. 

Xoris does nothing to add more dmg, it just adds ease of use. Quality of life at the expense of having to drag around the absolute worst glaive in the game. 

I thought when i got this neat, DE is giving us QoL changes to try and kill riven based stat sticks. Cool, ya gave us something so all players could get 80% of the benefit of the best tools in the game, but with a convenience change so massive even players with stellar rivens would consider switching. 

Thanks for nothing DE. Try playing your own game. 

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welp i had a bit of fun. I guess it was to much fun so it has to be removed. 

TLDR (weapon nerfed for convinience) All the points for its nerf are FALSE and DE dont get it at all (nothing new there) 

PS. The choice argument you make as to XORIS is a must is false. FALSE. Xoris added choice. ur choices where rivens \ narumon, Wich changed to xoris \ narumon \ riven

Edited by Ekzarcun
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I am fully behind Brozime's perspective on this. For all those who say this is was an OP interaction, no its not, its just QoL that was all. other stat sticks are more effective than the Xoris, but more annoying to use.

 

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Well, would u look at that... another superficial looking nerf, because of the always amazing usage chart... 
It gave more power??? NO it just make it the gameplay less clunky, oh nobody ever made a gladiator build for the Venka prime for those cited weapons or have a riven build just for that same reason and are more powerfull, but no XORIS is the OP weapon on the usage chart just because it make things more enjoyable and "fun", more powerfull i don't think so anyother build with a riven is better (but let's not talk about changing rivens right)
People are using the Xoris is just a symptom  of older problems that never got  fix or looked at
I looked at the xoris thing as a QOL weapon for those frames but well RIP 

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8 hours ago, Vernoc said:

It already was bevore. People just overhyped it and thought it's best in slot for every excalted frame. It only was a very small buff for baruuk.

Now people start to think again which weapons are best for every excalted frame and don't stick with medium choice that is only a stat stick and a very bad weapon too.

With other words: yes i'm very happy about this change because people get pushed in the right direction

if you read any of the other posts about why this change makes no sense you'd see that this doesn't promote player choice. The only benefit xoris had against other stat sticks is infinite combo duration. It had no other modifiers and a lackluster riven dispo, meaning for khora and naramon it was already easy to never have to worry about low combo counter, along with having better weapon passives and riven dispositions. And how does getting rid of xoris stop people from going with stat sticks that are awful as actual weapons? i dont see anything about Mire / venka prime being cut out of exalted interaction. Or any other weapon with 5/5 riven dispo. This doesnt push us "in the right direction" it pushes us backwards, to where we already were.

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1 hour ago, Dyonivan said:

Nonsense. If that were actually the case, we'd need to Cancel Arcane Energize, Zenurik, Limbo, Saryn, Gara, Octavia, melee in general and a whole horde of convenient OP stuff already in the game.

Oh I'm sure that's all coming. -.-

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It is funny that the infinite combo duration is getting nerfed when the tradeoff is pretty significant.

Infinit combo duration for much lower damage potential.

Xoris rivens are worthless on a stat stick. 

People who are serious about their khora or atlas builds wouldnt bother with xoris anyway because it isnt hard to maintain combo.

Looks to me like this whole conversation started because a youtube content creator was running their mouth and calling attention to a non issue.

Khora and atlas have incredible dps potential and always has been. It isnt xoris that made this possible, it is the frames themselves.

 

Xoris is a new player friendly option for convenience more than anything else. But it is hardly the meta option, even with infinite combo duration. Stat sticks require specific modding and high tier rivens to be meta.

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I am sorry but the argument that the xoris makes the other weapons obsolete when it comes to abilities scaling off of the melee weapon is just not true. I know that I can't speak for all but when I for example choose to run Ash to have some fun with bladestorm then I am not planning to use my melee weapon anyway. This is even more true when I want to run a Whipclaw Khora build or Atlas landslide. I am filling these weapons with all combo duration mods and what not anyway just for the sole purpose that I get the effects for my actual damage output: the ability.

As for exalted abilites I can't really see how having infinit combo duration is such of a big deal for them. Under good circumstances you won't need longer than 1 minute to get to the 12x multiplier and I don't understand what's the matter being able to build it up and being good once we got there.

That being said, am I surprised that this will be nerfed? Not really since I think we all know how DE's nerf politics work.

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ITT: people that don't understand balance commend DE for nerfing a weapon that was making the game actively better through its quality of life mechanic, despite that there are other more powerful alternatives. This isn't expanding player choice its removing it entirely, now the question changes from whether to use the xoris as a statstick as opposed to a weapon like venka prime, jaw sword, etc, to whether i wanna bother using a frame that relies on a statstick in the first place. When DE offers us the red pill or the blue pill they throw the blue pill in the fire before we can choose so we do what they want us to. People are still going to use statsticks with combo mods and the gladiator set to make these abilities overwhelmingly powerful, that hasn't changed, all the xoris was doing was making those interactions more accessible and less tedious

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Yay, instead of using xoris so I don't have to run Naramon, I just go back to using an OP riven stick and naramon and just use pizzas and arcane energize. Which is more effective but less convenient. Okay. 

What is happening is the xoris has low damage, and even with the infinite combo counter it is a subpar addition to a subpar weapon class. Other weapons blow it out of the water, the one niche use it had was giving a consistent and convenient boost to exalted abilities that you would otherwise have to put a small amount of effort to maintain. It was virtually the only reason to use xoris over more powerful riven stat sticks. You aren't fixing the problem. You are using the xoris as a wicker man to burn and placate people while the real source of the issue remains unaddressed, because the real problem is the exalted abilities themselves and that is a much more complex and challenging issue to tackle. 

You got a bunch of people screaming "Nerf xoris", you know what the real problems are, and there is no easy fix for that, so crucify the easy target to shut people up. I hate that the primary motivation behind these nerfs is to placate the mob, to momentarily LOOK like you are actually addressing their complaints without actually fixing the issue. Taking the easy way out instead of taking responsibility. I love this game, and I honestly think DE did something amazing with the resources at their disposal, but it is things like this that really bother me. I know you can do better, I know you ARE better. Please just remember that going forward.

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54 minutes ago, Zantum said:

What in Clem are you going on about here? "The convenience" was the only reason people used the Xoris, do you not understand this? Xoris infinite combo dura, Naramon combo passive, combo duration mods. If you remove the gimmick from the Xoris and people still want to use this weapon as a stat stick for some reason, guess what they're going to use. Naramon combo passive or combo dura mods. What has the Xoris lost? It lost the ability to be a stat stick because it can't perform as an alternative against rivened monster stat sticks. Hell it can't do that even as it is now.

The Xoris is the MOST popular stat stick because 1) new players can get a hold of it early and the Xoris can count as baby's first stat stick. And 2)Vet players can take Xoris into lower level missions and not have to worry about the combo counter since everything is one shot anyway. If im doing a 2 hour endurance run, there is no way i'd take the Xoris, it'll be my stat stick and Naramon combo passive because the damage is meatier, i get access to an on demand Ultimatum and I like my red crits.

This nerf is knee jerk reaction at its finest.

I think i was been clear... but i won't keep arguing because i know how things go on forum, it goes endless and ugly. I try to undertand your point, but u put no effort in understending mine, wich turns this meaningless.

Have a good game. 

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