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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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So i talked to my Clan Mates yesterday, cause everyone disappointed, because they couldn't even really try it out on the Switch & i get that why they feel that way.

Tried to reassure them, the Xoris wasn't even a good Statstick, just convenience and they can use Khora & Friends with enough other Statsticks that are more powerful.
I think DE got a little fast to pull the trigger here because of useage Charts even tho the Xoris itself doesn't make those abilities any more powerful just more convenient so yeah long story short, the reasoning behind the Nerf is pretty much out of place and makes no sense in my opinion.

Brozime explains it extremely nice in his latest Video !

@[DE]Megan @[DE]Rebecca please take a few minutes and listen / watch his explanation, maybe that gives you guys the chance to re-think the "nerf" because it would be really sad seeing such a nicely designed Weapon be nothing more but a dust collector in the future, Design & all is so nice, hope it doesn't go to waste because of this  ! (Also rip forma and so on for the Players that already committed) 

 

 

Edited by (NSW)Kremo
typo
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23 minutes ago, SaintSigmaX said:

I am fully behind Brozime's perspective on this. For all those who say this is was an OP interaction, no its not, its just QoL that was all. other stat sticks are more effective than the Xoris, but more annoying to use.

 

Thanks for reposting this video. The guy hits the nail on the head.

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50 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Venka doesn't let you keep your combo counter while you go prepare a sandwich.

Xoris's degree and level of convenience is leagues ahead any other trait any other weapon may have or bring for people other than endurance runners who need the damage hours in. It was making those builds extremely accessible with little to no investment. That is a problem. DE just failed at wording it correctly.

You can run venka prime with naramon and get nigh the same effect. Losing 5 stacks every 20-30 seconds, I can make a sandwich and eat it in about 3-4 minutes I'd say. Even if you take the worst out of that, that's only 60 stacks lost (15 stacks / minute for 4 minutes). Assuming I can survive for the time I eat the sandwich, I can stack up in under 20 seconds again, easily, and even if I didn't I'd still be at a multiplier over 9x , probably. Yeah nah, if that's the genuine reason, something stinks here. I'd check the bull standing in the corner.

And really, do you think convenience is a problem? Because I didn't know that unplayable games we're the best ones these days. Guess I should try out Fallout 76 day 1 patch again.

Sarcasm aside, if DE has a problem with a certain power level existing in the game, I can understand that. That's just balance. But if the convenience with which a certain strong strategy can be executed is the problem, then there's quite a few too convenient things in the game that need addressing. Let's start with how convenient primes are acquirable compared to their normal counterparts, while also being better. Used to be, you had to face salad V to get yourself a Mesa, grind up the coordinates etc. Now you just farm 30 prime junk parts. Best spy and leveling frame? You better play spy so much you don't need her anymore. Ah nvm, here, have some relics. I can repeat this for any frame that doesn't drop from a boss (and some that do, *cough* saryn *cough* equinox *cough*). Now that we have the prime salt out of the way, let's move on to the most recent event that awarded arcanes. The market crash was glorious. It was all of a sudden convenient to farm them, so everyone had maxed energizes. That enables a serious power spike for any caster frame, allowing you to run stronger builds that worry less about efficiency. Arcane pistoleer makes quite a few secondaries ridiculous, just by removing the inconvenience of reloading and collecting ammo. Arcanes are convenience incarnate. And they just gave them away for a month.
Convenience can never be the problem, the power level is. And considering they're not changing rivens (I watched the brozime video too), and they won't nerf the power level, just the convenient way of getting there, then they're morally speaking no better than a government warning of the danger of smoking on the packaging, but still getting the taxes on it as well.

I'll rest my case here, except that I'd like to point out that to get the mods near maxed for full optimized builds, and the forma and exilus required, it means you're likely already a few hundred hours, if not more, into the game. So it's not extremely accessible. The only MR 10's that will have it are the ones that actually bother to farm Khora or related warframes, as well as all the mods required. (Using mr 10 because, iirc, it's the most populated MR). It's accessible, but not extremely so. It requires quite a bit of dedicated farming.

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You claim variety but in the end this only makes 100% no one uses the xoris ever.

Secondly you only push people towards running stat sticks and require them to purchase or aquire overpriced rivens from the riven mafia.

This feels very wrong!

I feel you should remove the stat stick interaction from frames as well to ensure proper variety and remove riven dependancy from warframe abilities.

 

 

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DE, I love you, I love your game, but this constant cycle of nerfing things that just make the game more accessible and flexible for its playerbase is unacceptable at this point. I no longer plan to buy Platinum until the community's concerns are answered in a satisfactory manner. Even universal vacuum, a request pleaded for over many years by the community, still hasn't been implemented. Xoris finally made Glaives fun to use again, and as a Dark Sector fan, that brought a smile to my face seeing them get some love; that sure was short-lived while it lasted. Remember your roots. Warframe is a power fantasy, so don't take the power away. Make enemies tougher by all means, but know that this is just artificially implementing difficulty that needn't exist. Destiny lost so many fans over shady practices, nerfs and the focus on lootboxes, which like it or not, Rivens essentially are. I got into this game on the premise of it being a labour of love by developers who listened to feedback, who respected their fans, and while they made money like any business, it wasn't their driving factor. Deadlock was the best quest I've played since the Second Dream, this could have been the great Warframe resurgence especially in light of COVID-19 hampering the industry (and the world), but when you make the plot-centric Glaive that in the lore is powerful enough to defeat a Warframe become essentially useless, it just feels like more of the same. I'm starting to grow averse to even levelling anything or grinding any new content for fear it's all going to be wasted time in the end. I thought this game rewarded time investment, not the platinum payouts of Riven whales? Because any weapon with the right riven will make an exalted ability ten times stronger than Xoris ever could. Plus, of the times I do buy platinum, it's to forma a weapon I become impressed with; it's essentially wasting my hard-earned money on something that becomes useless. I feel like my purchases with EA bear more fruit right now.

To add to this: what is wrong with rewarding the time investment with something a little nuts. I liken it to when you'd play an Old School FPS and get something like the DOOM BFG toward the end. By the time you unlock Deadlock, you're hundreds of hours into the game anyway. Same with the Bramma if you really went out of your way to not only forma it every time, max the appropriate mods and build it right, as well as valence fusion enough to get a 60% toxin buff. There is no new content to challenge the players at this point of the game, what keeps them playing then is going ballistic on mobs with fantastic weapons and builds. These changes are antithetical to keeping long-term players invested, and will only make newcomers more aware of the constant practice of nerfing the fun out of this game well ahead of them reaching high masteries/endgame like those of us who have. Then, what is there for even the new players to aim for? More useless MR fodder weapons that shoot nerf bullets and feel worse than an MK-Furis? Hyperbole, but hopefully you get my point. Power, it's something the Warframes exude, and it's something to strive for. Don't take that away, don't lose your magic.

I'm feeling remorseful for diving back in after Scarlet Spear lost me for a moment. It may be high time to uninstall. Sad times.

Edited by (PS4)FirstAidSprays
forgot to add another thought.
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26 minutes ago, -CM-Darkvamper said:

You can run venka prime with naramon and get nigh the same effect. Losing 5 stacks every 20-30 seconds, I can make a sandwich and eat it in about 3-4 minutes I'd say. Even if you take the worst out of that, that's only 60 stacks lost (15 stacks / minute for 4 minutes). Assuming I can survive for the time I eat the sandwich, I can stack up in under 20 seconds again, easily, and even if I didn't I'd still be at a multiplier over 9x , probably. Yeah nah, if that's the genuine reason, something stinks here. I'd check the bull standing in the corner.

The point of Xoris is the convenience of not having to bother with Naramon + Combo counter mods, replacing Naramon with Zenurik and combo counter mods with damage mods.

26 minutes ago, -CM-Darkvamper said:

And really, do you think convenience is a problem? Because I didn't know that unplayable games we're the best ones these days. Guess I should try out Fallout 76 day 1 patch again.

So I guess I'll just quote myself:

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

You missed the point, although I should have worded it better. I meant that such broken builds are at least somewhat limited by the investment tied to them: Naramon and/or Combo duration mods/Aura. People don't like to micro-manage in WF. Most complaints about Gauss and the Ember reworked are about micro-management, with combo duration scaling being no different.

But this in turn amplifies why Xoris is so desirable: It pushes such builds even more by virtue of making them extremely convenient to use by not having to invest the tiniest amount in combo duration and instead use:

- Steel Charge over Swift Momentum.

- Zenurik over Naramon (Infinite energy).

- Another damage mod over Drifting Contact/Body Count.

Xoris is QoL, but it's the kind of QoL that is so desirable that it stands out even within the context of it being a new weapon and beyond the damage sacrifice.

Xoris didn't make those builds possible, it just made them so much more convenient and easy to do that it resulted in a push towards such builds because people like easy + powerful builds. They are better with other weapons and stat sticks other than Xoris. The difference here being that historically, any build that is shown to be cheese-easy effective by content creators is then replicated to no end by people who think that it's a new build or the best choice. This further pushes usage, artificially or not. The rest had existed before, so why weren't those powerful builds that common before? What is new? Xoris. That's the outlier.

What they should have done if the problem was damage was to remove Rivens from being considered in the damage calculation. They didn't do that. So the optics are now on the wrong place by people believing that DE don't know their game by using the statement you highlighted as being objectively false, which you are right to point out but besides the point: It's not about the damage per se; it's about the number of people getting into said damage ballparks now thanks to the Xoris. DE could have worded it better. Instead of saying that it's because of the damage facilitated by Xoris, they should have said that it's because of how easy it is to push these builds without any drawback beyond doing less damage, which is not a problem for anyone who isn't an endurance runner.

DE don't like it when people flock to one thing. Catchmoon. Kuva Bramma. Xoris. The next thing afterward. What takes the hit is the new thing as that is the outlier. This was easy to predict.

Convenience alone is not a problem. Being so convenient that an abnormally high number of players is flocking to it is a problem.

26 minutes ago, -CM-Darkvamper said:

Sarcasm aside, if DE has a problem with a certain power level existing in the game, I can understand that. That's just balance. But if the convenience with which a certain strong strategy can be executed is the problem, then there's quite a few too convenient things in the game that need addressing. Let's start with how convenient primes are acquirable compared to their normal counterparts, while also being better. Used to be, you had to face salad V to get yourself a Mesa, grind up the coordinates etc. Now you just farm 30 prime junk parts. Best spy and leveling frame? You better play spy so much you don't need her anymore. Ah nvm, here, have some relics. I can repeat this for any frame that doesn't drop from a boss (and some that do, *cough* saryn *cough* equinox *cough*). 

Yeah, I agree that some things like Prime vs Normal frame acquisition difficulty should be addressed. Mesa Prime chassis should require everything it does plus a regular Mesa Chassis. But that's off-topic for the Xoris and only serves to move the goal-post beyond the Xoris, which is what is being discussed right now. And even if I agree with you there, acquisition convenience vs. usage convenience are separate topics on their own and can have separate guidelines for each. Expecting absolutely everything to work under the same rules/umbrella under all circumstances 100% of the time is a logical fallacy on its own.  

26 minutes ago, -CM-Darkvamper said:

Now that we have the prime salt out of the way, let's move on to the most recent event that awarded arcanes. The market crash was glorious. It was all of a sudden convenient to farm them, so everyone had maxed energizes. That enables a serious power spike for any caster frame, allowing you to run stronger builds that worry less about efficiency. Arcane pistoleer makes quite a few secondaries ridiculous, just by removing the inconvenience of reloading and collecting ammo. Arcanes are convenience incarnate. And they just gave them away for a month.

That's off-topic as well and not even on the same scale because you can't engage with it when you feel like it. We don't know if SS is to return in 3 months or in a year from now, so arguing how it makes everything easy and convenient is not only off-topic, but moot. Once again: Even if I agree with you there, acquisition convenience vs. usage convenience are separate topics on their own and can have separate guidelines for each. Expecting absolutely everything to work under the same rules/umbrella under all circumstances 100% of the time is a logical fallacy on its own.

26 minutes ago, -CM-Darkvamper said:

Convenience can never be the problem, the power level is. And considering they're not changing rivens (I watched the brozime video too), and they won't nerf the power level, just the convenient way of getting there, then they're morally speaking no better than a government warning of the danger of smoking on the packaging, but still getting the taxes on it as well.

It is a problem when people flock to convenience at the cost of anything else because nothing else can compete with it. Did the Cathmoon and Kuva Bramma nerfs get forgotten already? Did people forget DE flat out said they were nerfing them because of over-usage? Heck, Kuva Bramma was nerfed the day Xoris was released.

26 minutes ago, -CM-Darkvamper said:

I'll rest my case here, except that I'd like to point out that to get the mods near maxed for full optimized builds, and the forma and exilus required, it means you're likely already a few hundred hours, if not more, into the game. So it's not extremely accessible. The only MR 10's that will have it are the ones that actually bother to farm Khora or related warframes, as well as all the mods required. (Using mr 10 because, iirc, it's the most populated MR). It's accessible, but not extremely so. It requires quite a bit of dedicated farming.

I disagree with you there. People who optimize are a tiny minority. Most people just go to YouTube and type "Warframe best damage 2020" and go with whatever video they find from Grind Hard Squad or Brozime. They don't even have to farm Khora; they buy her like the buy Ivara because they can't be bothered to farm her. And Xoris is a free weapon awarded to everyone

Edited by Jarriaga
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Yes because let u remove any option of convenience that is still inferior to your rivens.

 

Y'know, the ones that go for thousands of plat specifically because they could serve as stat stick modifiers. Ooooohhhh nonononono cant have even the tiniest threat to the riven loot box economy. God forbid there be options that exist that might have a small risk of the riven market getting affected. Lord forbid diversity in the face of a new game mode that encourages build narrowing to have an otherwise inferior but more convenient option taken off the table.

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There is nothing wrong with the  Xoris,De should  look beyond the spreadsheets numbers and stop making foolish justifications . This serves to remind us this event is a knee jerk reaction with no thought behind it . If DE actually stopped   and gave things proper thought , this would not have happened .  instead of nerfing this , there efforts should be used to tie the different elements of game play  together . The game remind of a puzzle foolishly trying to be solved  using more than one puzzle box.

 

 

 

Edited by Tittakemen
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36 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Convenience alone is not a problem. Being so convenient that an abnormally high number of players is flocking to it is a problem.

The same can be said about rivens mods, blood rush/weeping wounds/CO, Saryn, Equinox, pretty much anything “meta”.

But want to know why the Xoris is sooo OP? Because it can make new players get a good weapon without the need to invest in Focus Schools or Rivens which means less plat spent and in return less revenue for DE

PS: You can suck up to DE all you want, but a bad decision gets reactions like the one you see on this thread.

Edited by (NSW)Siaw
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6 hours ago, (XB1)Angryspy101 said:

Technically, Xoris essentially not being useable with certain abilities is it being touched because now nobody has any real reason to use it except for the new activity which even then people would just bring Mesa. It's only real use and niche is gone all because of a misunderstanding of DE's misplaced sense of balancing. I've USED the Xoris and it sucks just as a melee weapon.

And who's exactly the glass cannon frame here, both Mesa and Saryn can tank a good amount of damage when built properly on top nuking rooms, Face it.

okay u win the argument keyboard warrior.... 🙂

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18 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

The same can be said about rivens mods, blood rush/weeping wounds/CO, Saryn, Equinox, pretty much anything “meta”.

But want to know why the Xoris is sooo OP? Because it can make new players get a good weapon without the need to invest in Focus Schools or Rivens which means less plat spent and in return less revenue for DE

And that nefarious way of thinking implying ulterior motives is the reason why I believe:

1) DE made a huge mistake by mentioning the problem was the damage output rather than the number of people flocking to this.

2) DE made another mistake by not removing Rivens from the damage calculations.

They only opened themselves up for thoughts like yours by failing on those points.

18 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

PS: You can suck up to DE all you want, but a bad decision gets reactions like the one you see on this thread.

PS: It's only a bad decision if you want to do some revisionist history and act like Catchmoon and Kuva Bramma didn't happen. This was expected day 1.

Edited by Jarriaga
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2 minutes ago, Kurel said:

One thing i'll ask,don't make Rivens unaffecting the abilities please

And that will put you at odds with people here attacking DE for this decision by arguing that Rivens affect abilities, thus making the Xoris a worse stat stick and ultimately not deserving of such a nerf.

- Change something = People get pissed.

- Don't change something = People get pissed.

DE can't win against so many different players that want so many different and often incompatible things.

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Just now, Xkorpitron said:

But im pretty sure if they didnt touch Xoris, it would be the catchmoon situation all over again, but in a melee standpoint, i can bet you that.

Or Kuva Bramma, which was nerfed the very same day the Xoris was released with DE flat-out saying that it happened because of its usage stats eclipsing everything else by a wide margin, which is likely to be the case here as well even within the context of the Xoris being a new weapon (Because you don't see the Velox in every other mission).

Yet people seem to have forgotten about the Kuva Bramma nerf already.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Or Kuva Bramma, which was nerfed the very same day the Xoris was released with DE flat-out saying that it happened because of its usage stats eclipsing everything else by a wide margin, which is likely to be the case here as well even within the context of the Xoris being a new weapon (Because you don't see the Velox in every other mission).

Yet people seem to have forgotten about the Kuva Bramma nerf already.

i used kuva bramma, it's still okay ish, but again i just play casually, the issue here i see, is mostly popularity, which agains brings the fact, people wanna do a mission the most effective way, so if xoris helped in that regard, why not use it.

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4 minutes ago, Xkorpitron said:

i used kuva bramma, it's still okay ish, but again i just play casually, the issue here i see, is mostly popularity, which agains brings the fact, people wanna do a mission the most effective way, so if xoris helped in that regard, why not use it.

Because DE don't like it when there's a huge usage disparity gap between what's at the top and what follows. They've said it multiple times. They don't try to hide it or sweeten it.

In other words:

X > Y = DE are fine with this.

X >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Y = DE are not fine with this.

And people need to make peace with that, because the next thing that does that is going to get the same treatment. I'm willing to bet 10 Forma Zenurik is next.

Edited by Jarriaga
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