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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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4 minutes ago, Xkorpitron said:

i used kuva bramma, it's still okay ish, but again i just play casually, the issue here i see, is mostly popularity, which agains brings the fact, people wanna do a mission the most effective way, so if xoris helped in that regard, why not use it.

Because DE don't like it when there's a huge usage disparity gap between what's at the top and what follows. They've said it multiple times. They don't try to hide it or sweeten it.

In other words:

X > Y = DE are fine with this.

X >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Y = DE are not fine with this.

And people need to make peace with that, because the next thing that does that is going to get the same treatment. I'm willing to bet 10 Forma Zenurik is next.

Edited by Jarriaga
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9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Because DE don't like it when there's a huge usage disparity gap between what's at the top and what follows. They've said it multiple times. They don't try to hide it or sweeten it.

In other words:

X > Y = DE are fine with this.

X >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Y = DE are not fine with this.

And people need to make peace with that, because the next thing that does that is going to get the same treatment. I'm willing to bet 10 Forma Zenurik is next.

You make some valid points. However, the main issue here is that the popularity of Xoris doesn't mean it is better than non-xoris builds. The popularity of it comes from its convenience. As Brozime made very clear, and those of us who have had super powerful atlas/khora builds for a long time have been well aware before Xoris was released, Xoris is not the issue.

DE have claimed that Xoris allows for super powerful builds but in reality these builds have existed for a long time. Naramon + 1 combo duration mod pretty much locks in that max level combo count for most mission types. Xoris has puny Riven disposition so its potential as a stat stick is not even close to that of the higher tier options.

 

If we were talking about something that was popular and clearly better than everything else, sure, a nerf is warranted. But that isn't the case here. If they're not happy with the damage potential of Khora/Atlas etc. then they need to nerf the frames.

TBH Khora has instigated this conversation because, unlike Atlas (and soon to be Gara) her whip has decent crit stats. Atlas and Gara are difficult to get to yellow crit levels but Khora can comfortably sit on red crits.

Nerf Khora's whipclaw crit chance from 20% to 5% and this conversation is over.

 

The relationship between Xoris and the exalted weapons is its own issue and it mostly stems from exalted weapons getting shafted when melee 3.0 came out. What people have been doing with Venka (or other melee options) to milk the combo counter is borderline exploitative. Xoris has made this issue more obvious. The interaction between regular melee and exalted melee should not exist, period. But Exalted weapons should not be restricted from syndicate mods. Especially since regular melee options are generally more powerful in the long run. 

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26 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Or Kuva Bramma, which was nerfed the very same day the Xoris was released with DE flat-out saying that it happened because of its usage stats eclipsing everything else by a wide margin, which is likely to be the case here as well even within the context of the Xoris being a new weapon (Because you don't see the Velox in every other mission).

Yet people seem to have forgotten about the Kuva Bramma nerf already.

Xoris is nowhere near old Bramma. Not even close. Many other melee weapons out-perform it both in terms of stat-sticking and its own damage output.

 

"But lazy and popular durr" yeah, it's a brand new weapon almost every single player can get, wow, I have no idea why it'd be used, because it's required for a quest, and because it made a few frames much more pleasent to use an additional ability on if you didn't build for that specific ability already, because if you did, the existance of xoris barely made a difference, other than it being convenient and being less restrictive on other things that are now options rather than "use it or you're doing it wrong".

 

Khora was OP before, she'll keep being OP w/o Xoris. Brozime shows it. Gara didn't need the buff, all the other frames who benefited from Xoris are now back to having meager ability builds. It sucks. Warframe abilities should be meaningful to use across the board, and have some use. They don't for the likes of Ash or Excal, etc...

 

But by all means, keep your head in the sand.

Edited by Geraion
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2 minutes ago, Geraion said:

Xoris is nowhere near old Bramma. Not even close. Many other melee weapons out-perform it both in terms of stat-sticking and its own damage output.

Read again.

Usage disparity, not performance disparity.

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This knee jerk decision needs to be addressed and thought over. The issue at hand isn't the Xoris having an "abundance of power" compared to everything else. Stat sticks have been for a long time. And a lot of outstanding stat sticks have been around for a long time. You're effectively killing an option for us and by the looks of it, doing it by going "oh golly the graph says people are using this weapon"

On 2020-07-01 at 8:55 AM, [DE]Megan said:

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon, and the conversation of ‘Xoris or you’re doing it wrong’ is greatly restrictive in terms of player choice.

'Xoris or you're doing it wrong' is not true due to a number of factors, outside of convenience. It's only fair that people will try the new thing and even consider it an option or even talk about it with their peers when it alleviates a factor. Take the Fragor Prime for a spin, take the Venkas for a walk, take a Jaw sword with a Riven, I could go on, but the Xoris shouldn't be singled out and it should be piece in a bigger picture than simply killing it. Don't just go "people are using it", ask why, and see if there's a solution that doesn't involve putting the new toy 6ft under.

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25 minutes ago, Geraion said:

Read the part with the required for a quest and new weapon.

Doesn't matter. Basic statistics have to take into account not the total number of people who own it, but rather the number of people who are using in a specific context.

- How many people have the Xoris? From that, you extract:

- How many people build the Xoris as a stats stick?

- How many people who have Khora/Atlas did stat sticks before Xoris?

- Is there a correlation between Xoris usage spikes and content creator videos centered around it?

- How many people have started farming/buying Khora/Atlas after Xoris was released vs. before release?

- How many people have tried Xoris as a stats stick and kept it vs. how many people returned to their old stat sticks?

- How many people use the Xoris in comparison to other new weapons?

- How many people use the Xoris in comparison to other quest weapons?

- Where are people using the Xoris? ESO? Exterminate?

- How many people are doing longer ESO runs ever since they started using the Xoris?

- How many people are actually using the Xoris to kill things as a melee weapon?

And many more questions for context that goes beyond "Total number of people using Xoris". That's data DE have. 

The only way your argument holds any water is if you believe DE are just taking the total number of people and going with it as a knee-jerk reaction. You can't make an accurate statistical assessment  without taking into account factors beyond total numbers. But go ahead if you believe you can.

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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

I disagree with you there. People who optimize are a tiny minority. Most people just go to YouTube and type "Warframe best damage 2020" and go with whatever video they find from Grind Hard Squad or Brozime. They don't even have to farm Khora; they buy her like the buy Ivara because they can't be bothered to farm her. And Xoris is a free weapon awarded to everyone

I will agree with you there. I used to do just the same thing. I should also point out that I didn't forget bramma or catchmoon nerfs, I just didn't care because I didn't use them, and I didn't even like the bramma, as it's visuals are a pain up the rear for anyone playing on potatoes. The only "big" nerfs that ever affected me were ash bladestorm's demise (which it sadly deserved if we're fair) and the tonkor self-damage, and the tonkor remained my most used weapon even after. I only stopped using because I hate the rolling animation you do now. Death seemed fair balance for an overpowered blast to me, and I enjoyed the guessing part of it. Hikou prime + concealed explosives same thing.

So I will concede to your point that convenience can be a bad thing. I will also say that I appreciate you quoting yourself, I didn't read the entire topic, since I like my eyes not dehydrated from the salt. Just wanted to make sure DE heard that this is not the right way to go about this, a point by which I stand. Either the damage is the problem, and we should expect a serious overhaul in the future, or it's not (contrary to what they said), and convenience is, and then what? Because the line between fun to play and annoying is a thin one sometimes. I don't have the answer here. I just wish they didn't carpet bomb this nerf over all exalted weapons. Not all of them are particularly overtuned, some are even undertuned, by quite a bit. And I wish they were honest with us, or at least respected us enough to do the math on what they nerf. Ah, if only wishes did come true.

I'd like to add two more things: I've never bought a warframe that wasn't a vaulted prime in parts. I still don't have harrow because it's my personal cursed drop (80+ C-rotations on saturn, rip). It's easy for me to forget that you can buy warframes from the market, because I consider it a self-defeating thing to do, especially in a grind game. You are very right to point this out as part of the convenience. But then it's payed for convenience. I don't mind a free PvE game having an indirect form of pay to win in it.
Secondly I appreciate your calm answer. Thanks for that. My apologies that I'm way too lazy to quote you everywhere.

PS: Expecting everything to fall under 100% the same ruleset might be a logical fallacy, but I merely expect them to have a semi-consistent design philosophy. But warframe has a tendency to be all over the place. Which is in some places one of it's strengths. But in others, like here, I believe it's a weakness. When it comes to player power and it's creep  in warframe, there should be some guidelines to follow, and right now, it's still all over the place.
 

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Nerf it all you want but yall need to refund any investment that was made into the weapon. 

You can still get roughly the same effect with a riven and Naromon. Infact with quite a few weapons you can get even better numbers and a long enough combo duration to not really worry about it. This nerf just made it less acceptable with those without a riven.  
 

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26 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You make some valid points. However, the main issue here is that the popularity of Xoris doesn't mean it is better than non-xoris builds. The popularity of it comes from its convenience. As Brozime made very clear, and those of us who have had super powerful atlas/khora builds for a long time have been well aware before Xoris was released, Xoris is not the issue.

DE have claimed that Xoris allows for super powerful builds but in reality these builds have existed for a long time. Naramon + 1 combo duration mod pretty much locks in that max level combo count for most mission types. Xoris has puny Riven disposition so its potential as a stat stick is not even close to that of the higher tier options

I agree with you here. That's precisely why I believe DE made a huge mistake by mentioning the problem was the damage output rather than the number of people flocking to this. They made a statement that was objectively false if taken at face value, and there was no way to salvage the conversation at that point.

The only other context we have is "If you're not using it you're doing it wrong", which is something they've only ever said about Kuva Bramma and Catchmoon. That indicates that the problem is not the damage per se, but the number of people flocking to that weapon. But there's no going back now, and that's on them. Their choice of words opened them up to the backlash.

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6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I agree with you here. That's precisely why I believe DE made a huge mistake by mentioning the problem was the damage output rather than the number of people flocking to this. They made a statement that was objectively false as their justification if taken at face value, and there was no way to salvage the conversation at that point.

The only other context we have is "If you're not using it you're doing wrong", which is something they've only ever said about Kuva Bramma and Catchmoon. That indicates that the problem is not the damage per se, but the number of people flocking to that weapon. But there's no going back now, and that's on them. Their choice of words opened them up to the backlash.

The "if you're not using it you're doing it wrong" is hilarious.

People like the weapon so they're playing with it. People won't stick with it forever. Unlike Bramma and Catchmoon it really isn't the best option. Not for regular melee and not as a stat stick.

People will drift away from Xoris regardless of its infinite combo duration.

Heck, I've known about it since it came out and I've never even thought of replacing my conventional stat stick because xoris is nowhere near as effective.

 

DE, why you do dis...

Idiot Facepalm GIF

Edited by Leqesai
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11 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Doesn't matter. Basic statistics have to take into account not the total number of people who own it, but rather the number of people who are using in a specific context.

- nipped for brevity

The answer is, I don't know. As a normie player DE will never even notice the existance of, same as you, I don't have access to their stats.

 

Popularity means jack all so soon after release. That it made a few frames more all-round usable because it made non-exalted builds more flexible with options is not OP, it's a breath of fresh air that will pass.

 

Bramma took AGES to get nerfed, and it was consistantly top-tier. Xoris was just released, so what if it's trending for a while. They made a bad knee-jerk decision, just admit it. Or better yet, ask DE about your questions, they have the answers, but I doubt they care to give an honesst answer instead of just stemming the flow of fun because it's the easiest option instead of actually taking a good hard look at WHY they have to make these knee-jerk reactions to begin with. Xoris is not part of the root, it exhibited a symptom.

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10 minutes ago, Geraion said:

Bramma took AGES to get nerfed, and it was consistantly top-tier. Xoris was just released, so what if it's trending for a while. They made a bad knee-jerk decision, just admit it.

Let's set some baselines here so we can understand one another: Kuva Bramma took 4 months to get nerfed, and we can argue even less since the usage spike started when self-damage was removed in Update 27.2, making it 3 months.

You then say "let Xoris trend for awhile".

How long? 

And how much more will it then amplify the backlash because DE didn't act on time? Where do you draw the line?

- Nerf things when they are just released so people don't get used to it = People get mad at DE.

- Don't nerf things on time and let them fester as people get used to it = People get mad at DE.

Where do you draw the line?

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19 minutes ago, anfuerudo said:

I'll just post it here, because all pages in this topic need at least one post with it.😉

 

Yip after watching this I really hope de doesn't nerf it. But this also tells us that de just looks at YouTube videos and go "oh now it's to powerful nerf it". 

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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Let's set some baselines here so we can understand one another: Kuva Bramma took 4 months to get nerfed, and we can argue even less since the usage spike started when self-damage was removed in Update 27.2, making it 3 months.

You then say "let Xoris trend for awhile".

How long? 

And how much more will it then amplify the backlash because DE didn't act on time? Where do you draw the line?

- Nerf things when they are just released so people don't get used to it = People get mad at DE.

- Don't nerf things on time and let them fester as people get used to it = People get mad at DE.

Where do you draw the line?

When they test things before releasing them,that's were the line will draw. They need personal test persons to test weapons with warframes before releasing them 

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Zerorama-7 said:

When they test things before releasing them,that's were the line will draw. They need personal test persons to test weapons with warframes before releasing them 

Sure, but that doesn't answer my question unless your implication is "Be perfect at all times, never miss anything".

Again, assuming something slips, where do you draw the line? He said the Bramma nerf took "ages" in all caps even though it only took 3-4 months depending on counting the removal of self damage. If that is "Ages", where is the line for a decent time in which something is allowed to be if it slips through?  

10 minutes ago, (PS4)FirstAidSprays said:

Spitting facts my guy.

So you think DE are not accounting for this?

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3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Sure, but that doesn't answer my question unless your implication is "Be perfect at all times, never miss anything".

Again, assuming something slips, where do you draw the line?

He's not wrong though. DE doesn't test things thoroughly with a broad enough cluster, otherwise these knee-jerk screw-overs wouldn't happen, and they wouldn't release 'broken' weapons.

 

They most definately should get some of the popular min-maxers on board for weapon-testing before release so they can give feedback for their max potential. For the average joe, it won't matter, but it definately will for the people who care about optimizing and pushing limits. Floors are easy, ceilings need to be taken into account as well, because they have both audiences, no matter if it's just 1%.

 

Anything in regards to stats is not things to ask another player, we don't have any of those answers, so it doesn't win you any arguments until DE actually makes their internal stats and their intended goals official.

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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Sure, but that doesn't answer my question unless your implication is "Be perfect at all times, never miss anything".

Again, assuming something slips, where do you draw the line? He said the Bramma nerf took "ages" in all caps even though it only took 3-4 months depending on counting the removal of self damage. If that is "Ages", where is the line for a decent time in which something is allowed to be if it slips through?  

So you think DE are not accounting for this?

Well there will always be people who will complain that's just us being humans. But de wont get as big as a backlash if they would just test and take feedback from us who play the game. But this keeps happening cause they don't test.

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5 minutes ago, Geraion said:

He's not wrong though. DE doesn't test things thoroughly with a broad enough cluster, otherwise these knee-jerk screw-overs wouldn't happen, and they wouldn't release 'broken' weapons.

They most definately should get some of the popular min-maxers on board for weapon-testing before release so they can give feedback for their max potential. For the average joe, it won't matter, but it definately will for the people who care about optimizing and pushing limits. Floors are easy, ceilings need to be taken into account as well, because they have both audiences, no matter if it's just 1%.

Anything in regards to stats is not things to ask another player, we don't have any of those answers, so it doesn't win you any arguments until DE actually makes their internal stats and their intended goals official.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Zerorama-7 said:

Well there will always be people who will complain that's just us being humans. But de wont get as big as a backlash if they would just test and take feedback from us who play the game. But this keeps happening cause they don't test.

That's fine and all, but answer the question:

Where do you draw the line? 

Again, you said the Bramma nerf took "ages" in all caps even though it only took 3-4 months depending on counting the removal of self damage. If that is "Ages", where is the line for a decent time in which something is allowed to be if it slips through?

Yes, DE need more and better testers. If you believe that these testers will happen to catch everything at all times then wonderful. I just hope you're not hoping for anyone to hold you to your own standards.

But still you refuse to define a standard DE can even aim to work towards in case of an error.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Zerorama-7 said:

Well there will always be people who will complain that's just us being humans. But de wont get as big as a backlash if they would just test and take feedback from us who play the game. But this keeps happening cause they don't test.

Khora and venari during the event was the eye opener for me that tell me de don't test before they put out

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Just now, Jarriaga said:

That's fine and all, but answer the question:

Where do you draw the line? 

Again, you said the Bramma nerf took "ages" in all caps even though it only took 3-4 months depending on counting the removal of self damage. If that is "Ages", where is the line for a decent time in which something is allowed to be if it slips through?

Yes, DE need more and better testers. If you believe that these testers will happen to catch everything at all times when wonderful. I just hope you're not hoping for anyone to hold you to your own standards.

At least a month, if not 2. As for Bramma, they didn't as such nerf it, they tweaked it, and it's still a good weapon. A week with xoris and now they want to literally trash it. Tell me how that makes any sense with previous arguments that have been demonstrated by capable players in mind.

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