Jump to content

Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Geraion said:

At least a month, if not 2. As for Bramma, they didn't as such nerf it, they tweaked it, and it's still a good weapon. A week with xoris and now they want to literally trash it. Tell me how that makes any sense with previous arguments that have been demonstrated by capable players in mind.

It was a nerf. Any tweak that results in a lower performance is a nerf. Any tweak that results in better performance is a buff. Bramma got a nerf by virtue of its ammo economy being more restrictive, thus decreasing its DPS.

If you want to argue that that's not a nerf then I'm done here. And the irony here about your comment about this change making the Xoris useless is that there are no changes to how the Xoris works if being used as a weapon rather than as stat stick, which I'm pretty certain is an inconvenient thing to notice. This only serves to highlight that to you and many others here, the Xoris was not even a weapon to begin with: It was nothing more than an ability booster.

Edited by Jarriaga
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi DE, I used my formas on the Xoris because I use it with my warframes abilities but now that quality of life is being removed from the game, I wish to know if we who farmed to build the weapon will get any compensation for the time and resources used on such a weapon. Please I feel that I wasted my time in resources in something that was immediatly nerfed.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It was a nerf. Any tweak that results in a lower performance is a nerf. Any tweak that results in better performance is a buff. Bramma got a nerf by virtue of its ammo economy being more restrictive, thus decreasing its DPS.

If you want to argue that that's not a nerf then I'm done here. And the irony here about your comment about this change making the Xoris useless is that there are no changes to how the Xoris works if being used as a weapon rather than as stat stick, which I'm pretty certain is an inconvenient thing to notice.  

It wasn't as much of a nerf, not compared to this. I failed the sentence, my bad. And no, they technically speaking didn't nerf xoris, they just made it the single worst item to use if you wanted to also use a smaller list of warframe abilities, that if you built for these abilities anyway, this changes nothing. It ONLY matters for people looking to expand on a non-exalted-weapon focused build to use 1 more ability on the regular because now it could be useful.The reason people used it past the quest.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, gustavoradat said:

Hi DE, I used my formas on the Xoris because I use it with my warframes abilities but now that quality of life is being removed from the game, I wish to know if we who farmed to build the weapon will get any compensation for the time and resources used on such a weapon. Please I feel that I wasted my time in resources in something that was immediatly nerfed.

you never get anything refunded 1 forma tops

Tonkor 9 forma (1 refund)

Brama (6 forma)

Chroma (6 forma)

at the top of my head

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Geraion said:

It wasn't as much of a nerf, not compared to this. I failed the sentence, my bad. And no, they technically speaking didn't nerf xoris, they just made it the single worst item to use if you wanted to also use a smaller list of warframe abilities, that if you built for these abilities anyway, this changes nothing. It ONLY matters for people looking to expand on a non-exalted-weapon focused build to use 1 more ability on the regular because now it could be useful.The reason people used it past the quest.

Which means they never had the intention of ever using it as a weapon. But thank you very much for giving a straight answer with regards to the time frame you expected. Not many people here are clear when pressed on such things.

Edited by Jarriaga
Link to post
Share on other sites

So does this mean that if use an Exalted ability while in the Granum Void and while the Xoris has a charge, we'll lose that charge? Because the line...

The design intention behind the infinite combo mechanic was predominantly added for the Granum Void’s charged throw moments, to allow you to retain your charges until you were ready.

... Makes it sound like the charges and the combo counter are connected. The combo counter by itself has nothing to do with the Granum Void, so I'm wondering why it was included as a mechanic.

Edited by Rien
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Which means they never had the intention of ever using it as a weapon.

Read your own sentence and ask yourself why they made it a weapon then.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

And the irony here about your comment about this change making the Xoris useless is that there are no changes to how the Xoris works if being used as a weapon rather than as stat stick, which I'm pretty certain is an inconvenient thing to notice. This only serves to highlight that to you and many other here, the Xoris was not even a weapon to begin with: It was nothing more than an ability booster.

Are you using the MK weapons? Or the Stug? Or the Seer? No because those are awful weapons.


The Xoris as a weapon is weak and the main use was the unique feature it had, which was no combo decay.

If you’re talking about tweaking the Xoris to make it more useful then DE should increase the stats, because right now that weapon is mediocre at best.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Geraion said:

Read your own sentence and ask yourself why they made it a weapon then.

Well, according to them, they do want you to have infinite duration in Granun Void missions. So it was going to have the perk anyway. If it was being used beyond that, the options are: 

1) Remove infinite duration for stat sticks. This only nerfs those using the Xoris as a stat stick without affecting the weapon as a weapon.

2) Remove infinite duration outside the Granun Void. This affects the Xoris as both a weapon and as stat stick.

Which one seems like the less harsh option considering you can only stay in the Granun Void until you hit the cap?

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

Are you using the MK weapons? Or the Stug? Or the Seer? No because those are awful weapons.

The Xoris as a weapon is weak and the main use was the unique feature it had, which was no combo decay.

If you’re talking about tweaking the Xoris to make it more useful then DE should increase the stats, because right now that weapon is mediocre at best.

Quoting myself:

On 2020-06-26 at 11:49 AM, Jarriaga said:

Both buffs and nerfs are needed. You just happen to see more nerfs because outliers tend to be too strong rather than too weak. For example, If the MK-1 Braton is outperforming the Braton then either the MK-1 Braton is too strong (Needs a nerf) --or-- the Braton is too weak (Needs a buff). The question then becomes, how does the Braton perform in relation to other weapons in its own MR bracket? If it performs just as well then that means that the outlier here is the MK-1 version and it needs to be nerfed. Otherwise, Braton should get a buff. 

Some people don't know this or willingly choose to ignore it, but weapons already got a damage balance pass in 2018 with their overall damage being tied to the expected damage ballpark of their MR bracket. They are already where DE want them. This also means that weapons like the Stug (MR2) are not meant to compete with the Tigris Prime (MR13) in any way, shape or form.

Taking that "damage ballpark" into account, outliers are the ones to be reigned in to fit in with the power of the rest based on the weapon's MR bracket. Doing the opposite by bringing the rest to outlier levels results in the rest of the game (Including enemies) needing to be rebalanced around the outliers, effectively nerfing the entire game as a whole when enemies are buffed as a result of everything but the outlier getting adjusted. You can hear this straight from Pablo's mouth at this timestamp in which he presents the example of the implication of, for example, raising the Rubico to the level of the Bramma and what the Rubico's buffs would need to entail so it can compete against the pre-nerf Bramma.

Outliers like the Stug do need a buff but if you're comparing the Stug (MR2 secondary) to the Tigris Prime (MR13 primary) instead of comparing it to the Castanas (MR3 secondary) you're doing it wrong. Alternatively, lower its MR rank so it no longer gets compared to the Boar or Vectis, but rather to the Lato and Seer. Either way it stops being an outlier in the context of other MR2 secondary weapons.

TL;DR: You are not meant to be even be using the Stug past a certain point to begin with. It's not meant to compete with the Tigris Prime in any way, shape or form as per the performance ballpark of the weapon being directly proportional to its MR rank. If you're comparing the Stug (MR2 secondary) to the Tigris Prime (MR13 primary) instead of comparing it to the Castanas (MR3 secondary) you're doing it wrong.

As for the Xoris, it's MR4. This means it's meant to be in the ballpark of weapons such as the Bo, regular Venka, and regular Nikana. And its stats show it.

Edited by Jarriaga
Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice overeaction to something that made it so that you didn't need a riven to be able to get similar levels of damage. This is a knee-jerk reaction that has just screwed over players that don't have rivens. Also this is when get a "new" level of enemies that follow follow the DE method of HP+Armour/Shields=Difficulty. If we wanted to assume this was malicous then congrats on getting whales to spends $300 to get enough plat to buy a riven that the Xoris displaced.

Edited by Unitanubis
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

How about to make pseudo-exalted stuff into actual Exalted things which also affect abilities?

  1. Atlas Fists affect his Rumblers damage because they're trash after lvl 30 enemies, it would also repair useless Rumbled (conclave) augment which equip you with boulders which deal no damage...
  2. Ash's Blades- Shuriken (people use it only if have -armor augment) and Bladestorm.
  3. Khora's Whip could change it's primary damage to Impact / Puncture / Slash depending on selected Kavat's mode (3rd skill) and mods from Whip would also affect her Kavat's damage.
  4. Add a feature to 1st and 3rd of Excalibur's abilities to also consider his Exalted Blade mods.
  5. Allow to use Body Count into Exalted weapons.

And so, after those changes, instead of reset combo counter on cast it would be better to reset on deactivation of Exalted ability. It would also fix stat-sticks rivens problem.

Edited by Muxailo
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

As for the Xoris, it's MR4. This means it's meant to be in the ballpark of weapons such as the Bo, regular Venka, and regular Nikana. And its stats show it.

I’m not even going to try to argue anymore, I could easily make a list of weapons with High MR requirement that are weak and viceversa.

You’re right, DE never makes any mistake, everything they do is rigorously tested before and after release.
All praise DE overlords. 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

I practically never come on the forums, but I have to speak up.

Xoris is used because the combo counter often doesn't last long enough with the low enemy spawnrate, especially when there are 3 other people in the mission trying to kill everything as quick as possible and as such it is a quality of life weapon for combo building. This is admitted in the first post as per the quote below, if low enemy spawnrate wasn't a thing then this infinite combo mechanic wouldn't have needed to be added for the quest to be possible to beat..

On 2020-07-01 at 4:55 PM, [DE]Megan said:

The design intention behind the infinite combo mechanic was predominantly added for the Granum Void’s charged throw moments, to allow you to retain your charges until you were ready.

 

Brozime has covered a lot of the faults with this planned update in a video far better than I could here, look for "Xoris Nerf Incoming - Discussing Why This is Nonsense"

 

Something I feel I should say before people think I'm whining because my shiny new toy is being nerfed, I have barely touched the Xoris since the quest, I am sticking to my Fragor Prime for the initial 30 combo counter +30 from orokin vault mods. A combo of 60 all the time is better than 0 most of the time. I could see this nerf coming a mile away, not that I agree with it

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Meanwhile, in another dev team:
"The team has been enjoying and laughing along at all the quirky and different builds that everyone has been playing and sharing with others."
(about "broken builds" in a pve game)
BL3 - today patch notes.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 2 minutes, Jarriaga a dit :

TL;DR:You are not meant to be even be using the Stug past a certain point to begin with. It's not meant to compete with the Tigris Prime in any way, shape or form.

As for the Xoris, it's MR4. This means it's meant to be in the ballpark of weapons such as the Bo, regular Venka, and regular Nikana. And its stats show it.

But does that mean that Kuva Weapons, and looking mostly at the Kuva Bramma which has the highest MR (rank 15), are supposed to be "end game weapons" and MR20&+ are supposed to mostly be equiped with them to be geared up against the highest difficulties ?

I personaly don't believe that Mastery Rank is only supposed to block your access to better gear as DE is trying hard to "balance" things. Look at the Hek & Nukor, also MR4: they are still things to keep around and can be pretty useful even at higher level; on the other hand, I hardly see Convectrix being used (if MR 7 are "superior" to lower MR).

Here, the Xoris is a pretty good exemple: a QoL hidden within the weapon, which is a glaive (small quantity of these things; a relative low efficiency in stance & damages). It's a neat thing for an average / low interest item. It was amazing by creating more options.
To me, MR should indeed "lock" for a bit the highest-damages weapons (ex: pangolin prime), end-game thingy (kuva - basmu - shedu - etc...), but each MR should reward you with more tools available instead of only 'more powercreep'; and there the Xoris is a great tool (and so: yes, a must have to get more variety for different/all warframe & gameplay type).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Ekzarcun said:

you never get anything refunded 1 forma tops

Tonkor 9 forma (1 refund)

Brama (6 forma)

Chroma (6 forma)

at the top of my head

I guess that might help a little but still, this change is quite all of the sudden, some people might have seen it coming but for many like me didn't think of it as in need of such nerf, it was after all a well known mechanic for a long time in game and now a specific weapon in specific situation that should work as the mechanic always worked is being removed.

I hope this can help patch the wound of the time and resources wasted. 

Thank you for the info kind person.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My humble point of view/experience so far:

I never played khora... She was not my cup of tea, plus having to choose among so many Warframes and combinations, she ended up collecting dust in my orbiter... She can be amazing (I know she can) but among all these choices she never got the chance to shine... But with xoris I was about to forma her and spend many hours on building and improving her... Not because that weapon could throw out crazy amounts of damage but because it was convenient and I liked that synergy.

Now khora will probably stay back again collecting dust.... I don't think creating that synergy broke the game... I think some times synergies like this one can offer more game time! (For forgotten frames or for frames that we don't like immediately!) Plus, the xoris is going also to collect so much dust sitting next to khora in my orbiter...

We already have many weapons and frames just sitting there doing nothing already... And that is ok because no-one is playing with each and every one of them constantly. Synergies like this one offer a chance to create or return to combinations for thinks in our arsenals that we left behind...

Thanks for your great effort and good will! You are doing an amazing job DE! (Few missteps but it's ok)

P.s. also thank you for notifying because you saved me from spending my forma/time for something that wouldn't work eventually.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

I’m not even going to try to argue anymore, I could easily make a list of weapons with High MR requirement that are weak and viceversa.

You’re right, DE never makes any mistake, everything they do is rigorously tested before and after release.
All praise DE overlords. 

Go ahead. Name them. If they don't perform as expectedly for their MR bracket then they should be buffed. 

Also, I never said that DE don't make mistakes. Arbitrations nerf was a mistake. Fortuna week 1 difficulty was a mistake. Calling Venari's healing a bug was a mistake. Nerfing Khora and Limbo because of Scarlet spear was a mistake. Rushing Empyrean was a mistake. The Dog Days balancing was a mistake.

I just don't think this is. And just because this time I don't think it's a mistake doesn't mean I'm a drone unless you happen to think I must always reject nerfs at all times. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why this not right 😡 xoris is just time convenient and it's only useful on khora and Atlas and mostly on khora because She needs it more than any warframe.Now when khora is more useful and actually good with this xoris you want to Nerf it -_-

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

It was a nerf. Any tweak that results in a lower performance is a nerf. Any tweak that results in better performance is a buff. Bramma got a nerf by virtue of its ammo economy being more restrictive, thus decreasing its DPS.

If you want to argue that that's not a nerf then I'm done here. And the irony here about your comment about this change making the Xoris useless is that there are no changes to how the Xoris works if being used as a weapon rather than as stat stick, which I'm pretty certain is an inconvenient thing to notice. This only serves to highlight that to you and many others here, the Xoris was not even a weapon to begin with: It was nothing more than an ability booster.

Considering it has the same damage stats as the skana? You know,the starting sword. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, AshRangerX said:

Why this not right 😡 xoris is just time convenient and it's only useful on khora and Atlas and mostly on khora because She needs it more than any warframe.Now when khora is more useful and actually good with this xoris you want to Nerf it -_-

Uh no, go check Brozime's channel on youtube, then come back.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

this weapon in no. way increases damage of exalted weapons more than any other melee weapon. this weapon simply offers the convenience of not having to reset your combo every once in a while. its annoying that you add a weapon that allows frames like Baruuk and his serene storm to take advantage of gladiator mods and then remove it almost immediately. if you have to take it out then allow exalted weapons to build combo easier. building combo with Baruuk is almost impossible in a practical mission and this weapon changed that. now you remove it because it did what it was designed to do??

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Umbriellan said:

But does that mean that Kuva Weapons, and looking mostly at the Kuva Bramma which has the highest MR (rank 15), are supposed to be "end game weapons" and MR20&+ are supposed to mostly be equiped with them to be geared up against the highest difficulties ?

I personaly don't believe that Mastery Rank is only supposed to block your access to better gear as DE is trying hard to "balance" things. Look at the Hek & Nukor, also MR4: they are still things to keep around and can be pretty useful even at higher level; on the other hand, I hardly see Convectrix being used (if MR 7 are "superior" to lower MR).

Here, the Xoris is a pretty good exemple: a QoL hidden within the weapon, which is a glaive (small quantity of these things; a relative low efficiency in stance & damages). It's a neat thing for an average / low interest item. It was amazing by creating more options.
To me, MR should indeed "lock" for a bit the highest-damages weapons (ex: pangolin prime), end-game thingy (kuva - basmu - shedu - etc...), but each MR should reward you with more tools available instead of only 'more powercreep'; and there the Xoris is a great tool (and so: yes, a must have to get more variety for different/all warframe & gameplay type).

We can only go by DE's on words own this, which is why I linked the source of the statement:

Quote

We are revisiting all weapons and adjusting their stats to fit into some Mastery Rank grouping guidelines based on DPS and Crit/Status split total. With this in mind, we are buffing a lot of the weapons you know and love!

We sketched out Mastery Rank groupings of 0-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12 and 13-15 for each weapon type with a minimum DPS and amount split between crit and status for each group. Using existing stats, weapons were sorted into the groups. If their stats were too high for their current MR it was raised along with any other properties to match.

I think that means that the weapon's MR rank reflects a certain performance ballpark more than just a simple progression lock. You can be MR20+ and use weapons under a lower MR bracket, but you shouldn't classify them as "terrible" weapons if they happen to not perform as you'd like if they still perform decently around its MR own MR bracket.

I do believe the current brackets do not spread-out as well as they should though. There should be weapon brackets all the way to MR20 at the very least, with the expected damage of said ballparks. Yes, they will completely dominate and destroy anything under them, but at least it will be expected and will not be outliers for doing so.

As for the Xoris, I think that the problem is the intention of having an infinite combo mechanic for Granun Void missions. And this fits with the Xoris being a weapon given to you for free in a quest tied to said mechanic. If said mechanic is being used beyond that (As a stats stick), then you have 2 options:

1) Remove infinite duration for stat sticks. This only nerfs those using the Xoris as a stat stick without affecting the weapon as a weapon.

2) Remove infinite duration outside the Granun Void. This affects the Xoris as both a weapon and as stat stick.

Which one seems like the less harsh option considering you can only stay in the Granun Void until you hit the cap and the weapon is tied to the Granun Void per se?

Edited by Jarriaga
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...