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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


[DE]Megan

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I just watched the hometime stream and i have to say, i think the point of WHY the community is so pissed at the Xoris nerf is being missed 100%

I, like most people who really care about their builds, already knew that the xoris did NOT affect top damage on any of the frames listed.   We've known for ages how to make builds that do exactly the same thing.  HOWEVER, the problem has to do with the approach DE took towards the nerf.

The xoris does not change the top damage for ANY of the warframes that they are claiming that it does.  This is highly inaccurate and to make the claim that the nerf is being made for this reason basically means one of only 2 things:

1)  De does not actually understand the interactions between their own weapons and this is the result of gross incompetence.   They somehow believe that these BIG NUMBERS are the result of the Xoris, and not stat sticks as a whole.   The Xoris only affects the QUALITY OF LIFE of these warframes by doing only one thing:  extending the timer of the combo meter to infinity.  That's it.   Doesn't change the damage, only changes how long you can do this.  As many people have pointed out already, this is already accomplished by using naramon and maybe 1 or 2 time extension mods on your stat stick.

2)  DE flat out lied about the reason.   They knew that the xoris was really a quality of life issue, and decided to lie to the community about it being about damage.

So here we are, stuck between 2 very unhappy places...............   Gross incompetence, or Lying.  

The issue is that people want accountability for the claims.  I also want to make it clear that as developers, DE has the right to do WHATEVER they want with their game.... I have no problem with that, in fact i have NO problem with the nerf quite honestly.  My issue here is the approach to the nerf.   By using language which is stunningly inaccurate, it misleads most people into thinking this is being done for an unrelated reason.

Be up front with the change.  If you wanted it changed because too many people were switching to it (which honestly would probably die down after a month or so once people realize OTHER weapons still have higher top damage for khora/baruuk/etc)..... then say that.  If you wanted to change the Xoris because it doesn't fit the theme of the game, that's fine.  If you wanted to change it because it simply was not intended and this is an interaction you'd like to remove, THAT IS FINE.... But to use the misinformation about "damage" is just absurd.

I think at this point considering how DE keeps doubling down on this damage issue, i really feel like they don't understand how stat sticks work at all...........   That's a whole other issue.  But as for *THIS* issue, i feel an apology about WHY the nerf is being made is warranted.... And honestly, DE, you need no more reason than "We just felt it didn't match with the intentions of the weapon, and so we are making a change."  This is your game at the end of the day and you can design it any way you want.

But please, be honest about your changes and WHY you're doing it.  This kind of unwarranted and deceptive wording is a slap in the face to your playerbase.   It assumes that we don't know how your game works and that we don't know how to mod things on our own.  I personally would appreciate a retraction of WHY this is being nerfed and fix it with a better reason....................  Cause right now you're either a LIAR or GROSSLY INCOMPETENT.    Neither one is a good look.

 

-Djeneh

 

Adding the Brozime video because he's 100% right on the quality of life issue.   Please read my whole post to understand my thoughts.

 

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12 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Then they are fools who might as well stop saying they hear what we have to say. Their justification for the nerf has been torn to shreds. This is not the instanceo f a handful of players that are unhappy or even that the xoris is somehow catabomb or eso nuke trin busted in terms of unintendedp laystyle. This is 'hey i don't have to worry about the combo timer again. Neat.'

So how about 'within the granum void infinite combo duration' and 'outside of granum void naramon style combo decay'?

And if you are going to bullishly ram this through can the xoris at least get a stat buff since it is now ANTI-SYNERGY with any warframe that uses a stat stick weapon?

They hear what they believe can be done without hurting the balance they've been struggling to create ever since the melee rework past October, then the armor scaling rework, then the status chance rework, then hard mode for increasing challenge a tiny bit without breaking the rest of the game.

Naramon-style decay outside the Granun Void? Why not just use Naramon then? Can I take a guess and say it's because you want to use Zenurik at all times and want all of the Zenurik benefits while losing nothing for using Zenurik? The irony of your post is that this changes absolutely nothing for those who use the Xoris as a weapon instead of a stat stick, and further points towards an eventual Zenurik nerf. Reb mentioned (In the Shy interview) Scott is interested in revisiting the focus system, so that's coming. 

Still, if we take the Xoris situation like the Venari situation, expect buffs and nerfs to more or less equalize everything. Rivens will be removed from scaling as you can't equalize around them.

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If overwhelming damage is this issue then remove rivens. It isn't overwhelming damage that make this weapon so good. It's quality of life. I'll just go back to my mire or venka and get the same damage, just as fast only with a few more hoops to jump through. And "greatly restrictive in terms of player choice" defines surviving the recently added hard mode. Please rethink this.

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But this makes the Xoris worse AS A WEAPON for frames with exalted abilities, since the combo counter is now only infinite in the absence of exalted abilities, AND it's a WORSE stat stick for them than all others. 

Surely "khora can't use Xoris and therefore can't farm granuum void for optimal performance" is almost as bad! 

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)Quik8201 said:

If overwhelming damage is this issue then remove rivens.

Seems like they could. They'll review the stat stick system as a whole now as per tonight's stream.

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Aila said:

But this makes the Xoris worse AS A WEAPON for frames with exalted abilities, since the combo counter is now only infinite in the absence of exalted abilities, AND it's a WORSE stat stick for them than all others. 

Xoris is not "a weapon" for exalted abilities. It is noting more than an ability damage boost. 

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Aila said:

Surely "khora can't use Xoris and therefore can't farm granuum void for optimal performance" is almost as bad! 

Then actually use the Xoris! HIT things with it! Kill things with it! This changes absolutely nothing if you actually attack with it. Oh... Right, I forgot it likely has Spoiled Strike and no attack speed mods because you never intended to actually attack with it. So nothing more than an ability booster.

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2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Seems like they could. They'll review the stat stick system as a whole now as per tonight's stream

if you really think DE is going to review the stat stick system i have bad news for you

De is going to review it in the same way De did review the darksector/raids, and by reviewing i mean ignoring it

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DE please stop being so stubborn with this decision ... This will backfire again and will again let a lot of players quit the game ... 

 

It's not the nerfing the weapon, that's the problem. It's DE being so stubborn.... 

The xoris is fine as it is, they talk about build diversity, but now you are forcing us to go back to riven statsticks till they get nerfed too.... 

Please rethink and leave the weapon alone...

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Just now, MarrikBroom said:

Anyone have any idea on how to get in contact with jim sterling? Since this removes a viable, albeit weaker (but more convenient) option than rivens and we all know how Jim LOVES dev shenanagins on lootboxes.

Or maybe sid Alpha could do a dirty devs.

How do we make these guys care?

send them a msg on youtube, it normally helps, also DE is on the dirt dev list for a long time

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3 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Balance. Riiight. If it's a benefit to players INSTANTLY snatched away. If it's something that's aggrivating? Persists for f'ing ever. Or a fun interaction is labeled as a bug and burried at the botom of the patch notes. The fact they just causally went 'NOPE nothing ot see here we are going aobut as is full steam ahead' without acknowledging the misstep...

Better now than a year later.

4 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

So technically I'm not affected, but to introduce an anti-synergy with a subset of frames because 'oh if you equip THIS weapon you are gonna suddenly get penalized.' 

What do you propose that isn't actually Naramon then?

They want infinite duration during the Granum Void. The Xoris was designed around and made for using within the Granun Void. The only other thing I can think of is to completely kill this infinite combo counter outside the Granun Void. So what was the alternative? Completely remove infinite combo outside the Granun Void and make the Xoris take a hit for every frame, even those who could not benefit the same way?

8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Not one word has been spoken of buffs, so I expect none until that point. As Rebecca said nothing of buffs in public response and acknowledgment of this thread? 

I expect nothing but backhanded mewing from them.

 I went by the Venari situation, which started in a similar way and resulted in a similar backlash and resulted in DE reviewing the entire "healing" system. Some abilities got buffed. Some abilities were nerfed. Pretty much everything was equalized. No reason to expect otherwise. 

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18 minutes ago, Djeneh said:

I just watched the hometime stream and i have to say, i think the point of WHY the community is so pissed at the Xoris nerf is being missed 100%

I, like most people who really care about their builds, already knew that the xoris did NOT affect top damage on any of the frames listed.   We've known for ages how to make builds that do exactly the same thing.  HOWEVER, the problem has to do with the approach DE took towards the nerf.

The xoris does not change the top damage for ANY of the warframes that they are claiming that it does.  This is highly inaccurate and to make the claim that the nerf is being made for this reason basically means one of only 2 things:

1)  De does not actually understand the interactions between their own weapons and this is the result of gross incompetence.   They somehow believe that these BIG NUMBERS are the result of the Xoris, and not stat sticks as a whole.   The Xoris only affects the QUALITY OF LIFE of these warframes by doing only one thing:  extending the timer of the combo meter to infinity.  That's it.   Doesn't change the damage, only changes how long you can do this.  As many people have pointed out already, this is already accomplished by using naramon and maybe 1 or 2 time extension mods on your stat stick.

2)  DE flat out lied about the reason.   They knew that the xoris was really a quality of life issue, and decided to lie to the community about it being about damage.

So here we are, stuck between 2 very unhappy places...............   Gross incompetence, or Lying.  

The issue is that people want accountability for the claims.  I also want to make it clear that as developers, DE has the right to do WHATEVER they want with their game.... I have no problem with that, in fact i have NO problem with the nerf quite honestly.  My issue here is the approach to the nerf.   By using language which is stunningly inaccurate, it misleads most people into thinking this is being done for an unrelated reason.

Be up front with the change.  If you wanted it changed because too many people were switching to it (which honestly would probably die down after a month or so once people realize OTHER weapons still have higher top damage for khora/baruuk/etc)..... then say that.  If you wanted to change the Xoris because it doesn't fit the theme of the game, that's fine.  If you wanted to change it because it simply was not intended and this is an interaction you'd like to remove, THAT IS FINE.... But to use the misinformation about "damage" is just absurd.

I think at this point considering how DE keeps doubling down on this damage issue, i really feel like they don't understand how stat sticks work at all...........   That's a whole other issue.  But as for *THIS* issue, i feel an apology about WHY the nerf is being made is warranted.... And honestly, DE, you need no more reason than "We just felt it didn't match with the intentions of the weapon, and so we are making a change."  This is your game at the end of the day and you can design it any way you want.

But please, be honest about your changes and WHY you're doing it.  This kind of unwarranted and deceptive wording is a slap in the face to your playerbase.   It assumes that we don't know how your game works and that we don't know how to mod things on our own.  I personally would appreciate a retraction of WHY this is being nerfed and fix it with a better reason....................  Cause right now you're either a LIAR or GROSSLY INCOMPETENT.    Neither one is a good look.

 

-Djeneh

 

Adding the Brozime video because he's 100% right on the quality of life issue.   Please read my whole post to understand my thoughts.

 

Wish I could like this twice.

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5 minutes ago, paulogabbi said:

if you really think DE is going to review the stat stick system i have bad news for you

De is going to review it in the same way De did review the darksector/raids, and by reviewing i mean ignoring it

Well, that's what they said. Some things they have failed on.

Others, they acted quite quickly on them like the healing system revision.

So you can choose to believe they meant it or that they lied. Only time can tell.

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7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Oh... Right, I forgot it likely has Spoiled Strike and no attack speed mods because you never intended to actually attack with it.

But wasn't it the point? Megan just said it was "their oversight, their mistake". And if I wanted to hit things with it, I'd rather use Glaive Prime, or maybe even less-clunky melee weapons...

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2 minutes ago, Greystrun said:

But wasn't it the point? Megan just said it was "their oversight, their mistake". And if I wanted to hit things with it, I'd rather use Glaive Prime, or maybe even less-clunky melee weapons...

Glaive Prime can't release Solaris prisoners in the Granun Void though. Only Xoris can.

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How come there’s still people defending DE decisions when it comes to bad oversight on a weapon they designed themselves? You’re only reinforcing the idea that they can’t do anything wrong and always listen to the community (which is far from true).

They messed up bad by releasing a weapon without thinking the consequences it would bring and now the community has to pay the price for their mistake.

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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Well, that's what they said. Some things they have failed on.

Others, they acted quite quickly on them like the healing system revision.

So you can choose to believe they meant it or that they lied. Only time can tell.

healing system revision was not "quick" by any mean

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I'm just going to say one thing.
If DE is changing mediocre but convenient weapon into useless weapon, than DE can take it back from me, but I'd like my 6 formas back.
This is "one bridge too far". I'm in this game long enough to witness endless nerfs of frames and weapons(down to its uselessness), sensless reworks.
You are trying to figure out why Warframe is losing its Players? THAT'S WHY! When you give us something convenient and usefull, you take it away for some absurd reasons. Keep doing this and in short amount of time there will be no one waiting for your updates and hotfixes.

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

How come there’s still people defending DE decisions when it comes to bad oversight on a weapon they designed themselves? You’re only reinforcing the idea that they can’t do anything wrong and always listen to the community (which is far from true).

They messed up bad by releasing a weapon without thinking the consequences it would bring and now the community has to pay the price for their mistake.

whiteknights are something else, i am sure this people think any nerf De does is justified

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12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Then actually use the Xoris! HIT things with it! Kill things with it! This changes absolutely nothing if you actually attack with it.

You're missing the point. If you actually try to use xoris on any of the affected frames, if at any point you decide to use any of the abilities in question even once your counter will be reset. Even if you call it a minor detriment, it still exists, and wouldn't happen for any other weapon

So becomes a situation of either don't use xoris with those frames or don't touch those abilities when using xoris, and that's bullS#&$

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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Glaive Prime can't release Solaris prisoners in the Granun Void though. Only Xoris can.

Ohh, that's cool, man! I didn't know that... I'll give it a thought while I murder those specters like in a blender with Mesa, or Banshee... or Revenant!

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Just now, Greystrun said:

Ohh, that's cool, man! I didn't know that... I'll give a thought while I murder those specters like in a blender with Mesa, or Banshee... or Revenant!

exact, rescuing solaris on granun is not even worth it

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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Glaive Prime can't release Solaris prisoners in the Granun Void though. Only Xoris can.

Granum voids as content have the lifespan of a fart. No one cares about that

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please,delete the Exalted Warframe weapons,they are useless and you don't want us to play them.Oh,delete all the warframe ablilties at the same time,you don't want us to play them too.Am I right? YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE WARFRAME A GAME YOU LIKE! Play warframe IN OUR WAY or you’re doing it wrong.RIGHT?Have you ever play this game?you made a cold weapon but can be used  to help us find another good way to play,and you just say "Oh no no no no,this shouldn't be like that,it's too imba" and nerf it to made us follow the path you made for us,and when all of us follow the path you made,you will say"these weapons broke the balance,nerf it!" Do you really want us to play this game?You want us to play different kinds of weapon,but most of them are too weak that they can't even play,you don't buff them to make them are able to use in game,you choose a "easier"way to do:nerf the good weapons.My teacher always say an old saying:“你所有偷过的懒,都会成为你打脸的巴掌” It means:All the lazies you have been will hit you very hard in the future.And I think,the time is coming soon.(I am just a student,and my English is bad,if there is anything wrong,please tell me,thanks)

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

How come there’s still people defending DE decisions when it comes to bad oversight on a weapon they designed themselves? You’re only reinforcing the idea that they can’t do anything wrong and always listen to the community (which is far from true).

They messed up bad by releasing a weapon without thinking the consequences it would bring and now the community has to pay the price for their mistake.

What else do you propose as a solution that goes beyond "Never make a mistake"? They want for the weapon to have an infinite timer because of the Granun Void. They don't want it to work as convenience for weapons that benefit from it as it means effectively using it as nothing more than an ability booster?

You have a problem with that? Then at least help them find out a solution that meets your demands while still respecting what they set out to do. 

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