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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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5 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Exalted melee weapons are affected by Gladiator mods that aren't on the Exalted melee.  You can't throw Gladiator mods on your Exalted and get the set bonus but you can throw them on your frame and your regular melee, or Helios' Deconstructor, and still benefit while using the Exalted melee weapon.

Yes, but originally you would gain the benefit by using your Exalted melee weapon. Now you get absolutely no benefit, you have to build up the crit multiplier with your normal melee which is then carried over to your Exalted weapon, which is ridiculous.

11 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Wouldn't the most direct solution be to disallow these mods from affecting exalted weapons and abilities?
Or is there a 'spaghetti code' issue?
Or am I just wrong?

I'm a little confused. You quoted a portion in which DE state that they don't want to nerf the abilities or the mods, and suggest a change that would effectively do exactly that?

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Seems a reasonable change. Got to applaud the changes to DEs methods of handeling this sort of thing over the years.

Also, side note, im looking forward to a corupted mod that gives us infinate combo duration, but no bonus to heavy attacks (for the interesting casual alt builds).

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Like it had been said before the whole concept of stat sticks need to disappear anyway.

It's a very clunky way to be able to use an ability that often gimp the melee weapon as well.
 

Well at least i was able to get some crit out of atlas while it last.

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Xoris was never the only choice. You could functionally get infinite combo using Naramon previously. You could A: use naramon with a weapon with a really good riven disosition, or B: use the weaker Xoris for convenience. I would say that is a fair tradeoff. So removing Xoris interactions actually restricts choice...

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Posted (edited)
il y a 32 minutes, [DE]Megan a dit :

Giving the Xoris combo duration kills the intended design for the Granum Void, which in turn affects The Deadlock Protocol quest. The idea of an infinite combo duration weapon opens the door for some cool builds, but we don't want the Xoris to be the only way to play.

It openned the door for every warframe that interacted with a melee, I agree with the fact that DE doesn´t want this to be our only choice (talking about xoris) but its passive really made all those warframe habilites usable, even far more consistant. (Not stroger [´cause we have rivens for that], just more reliable)

Why don´t you make Xoris´passive a mod so we can use it in another melees not just xoris (and look... you can add this special mod to steel path somehow)... it is that or change the way exalted/pseudo-exalted melees work in general, most of them aren´t that bad but normal melees that dont consume energy at all already destroy enemies like paper. Exalted melees should be far better than regular melees not vice versa.

Edited by xXMadneXDXx
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46 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

The change coming with The Steel Path Update is to have the affected Warframe Exalted Abilities / Exalted weapons reset the Melee Combo Counter ONLY if the Xoris is being used.

  1. So Exalted Abilities/Weapons are going to be considered heavy attacks now but also ignore combo efficiency mods?
  2. Since this only applies to the Xoris, using Naramon with a combo duration of 15+ on any other melee weapon is effectively the same thing.

So which is it?

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50 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon

You really didn't see this as the first interaction 99% of the player base would try? I thought that WAS the whole point of the weapon.

51 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole. 

So when are you going to do something about normal melee weapons invalidating every other weapon in the game? Especially the Exalted melee weapons, you know, the melee that consume energy with the trade off of being weaker than normal melee ?

You want to remove the interaction and throw this weapon to the trash? Fine. But at least fix Exalted melee weapons stats and interaction withe Gladiator set bonus first. Because Khora Whipclaw (the ability i suspect you'er targeting the most) only needs to change to Naramon and this change doesn't matter, but the others have no chance to compete with normal melee, especially in The Steel Path Update.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Congrats! You win the "dumbest post of the day" award!

happy new year yes GIF

not really

pablo LOVE high effort low reward frames, this is why ember rework sucks and protea is useless

if pablo reworks saryn i am sure it is going to be like "cast spore 500 times to deal 50 damage on miasma" type of thing

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

Yeah, let's use saryn, a frame that even devs (Pablo, i think) call problematic and thinking about nerfing

Irony being that the (current) rework for Saryn was done by Pablo (iirc) and is now the one being referenced as saying it's OP.....even though the rework was praised as being a really good rework on release....

Edited by LSG501
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1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Irony being that the (current) rework for Saryn was done by Pablo and is now the one being referenced as saying it's OP.....even though the rework was praised as being a really good rework on release....

because warframe have 2 types of players

the ones how do not care about saryn

and the ones how cry each time a saryn do more damage than the entire team

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12 minutes ago, Katinka said:

I would've been quite annoyed if a weapon I'm not even using cost me the Gladiator set on my Valkyr build's Hysteria.

On the one hand, I completely get it.

On the other, the post could just as easily have read

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with <The Gladiator set bonus>, and the conversation of ‘<The Gladiator set bonus> or you’re doing it wrong’ is greatly restrictive in terms of player choice. This was our oversight, our mistake, and we apologize for the time it took to formulate a plan and address this.

and it would apply, no?
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Opening:So Basically the Xoris is going from the best stat stick to the worst stat stick.

-Opinion1: I think the issue is stat sticks in general. Non exalted weapon abilities should have their own mods separate from melee weapons, similar to that of Exalted Weapons. Among new players, it would help clear confusion as it is hard to get an idea of the actual damage you are doing with Non Exalted Weapon Abilities without testing in the simulacrum.

-Fact1: The Success to the Xoris as a stat stick has to do with the infinite combo, not the actual damage of the abilities. It is very convenient to just keep your damage high as you play, but it just ramps up so quickly and is easy to maintain versus using the traditional stat stick due to not having to worry about combo duration. The Damage from the abilities was achievable anyway to begin with, it just maintains that damage for longer with the current update while using the Xoris. 

-Opinion2: The Upcoming change is basically a ALL or NOTHING once again In my Opinion. Heavy attack abilities have something called Combo Efficiency, but with this upcoming change, it doesn't seem like you are making the abilities use Combo Efficiency to help with the new change.

-The Death of the Xoris: By taking away the infinite combo duration, from the few Warframe abilities it did affect, the weapon is basically remaining niche, and is mostly used for the Granum Void. Isn't this the opposite of what is normally done? Granted the Xoris was the Best in slot stat stick due to INFINITE Combo, but that is all it had over anything else. The Reason why palyers use the Mire as a stat stick is due to the Passive of bonus toxin damage, and Decent riven disposition.

-Opinion3: Stat sticks are toxic to gameplay for the few Warframe abilities it affects. In my opinion the abilities that aren't able to be modded that require a melee weapon to be equipped to scale its damage should instead have their own Area to place mods, and their own area to be forma'd.

-Fact2: With this update, the Xoris as a weapon will become a useless niche weapon besides Granum void.

-Opinion4: Combo Counter in general needs to be retouched on, not just the Xoris.

-Fact3: Blood Rush and Weeping wounds are some of the only things that scale in the game with combo besides Heavy attacks. We need NEW mods to change anything or new gameplay mechanic that uses Combo

-What comes Next?: Mastery 30 is going to be here sooner, maybe even around the end of the year based on an interview that Rebecca had earlier this year. What are the plans for players who reach Mastery 30? Will there be a way to get more Mods slots on a frame, and go past Rank 30 on Prime Frames? The 8 Mod system + Aura Slot + Exilis Slot + 2 Arcane slots need to be expanded in the future to allow player creativity, especially with HARD Mode being released, or perk system of some sort that is earned from hard mode by accomplishing challenges with certain frames that grant a permanent increase to that frame, that will allow for content to be progressed in a relatively efficient way at higher tier game play.

Fact4: There are few players in this game whom can accomplish feats like Hard mode without the help of a full squad. Scaling damage frames or % Increase/Damage frames will become the way to efficiently run those missions. 

Heart to Heart: I am personally looking forward to the Steel Path to be released as long as it isn't half baked like Railjack was back in December. I hope over the next few weeks the feeback from the players is looked over and balancing changes will be made as stated in the original post. There are many things to do and be worked on. I've been playing this game for about 7 years, I can say I've done a lot and might as well say that I'm earning a doctorate in it. I look forward to the future of Warframe, the Interactions between players and clans, the creators, and the time spent/will spend in the future.

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Yes, but originally you would gain the benefit by using your Exalted melee weapon. Now you get absolutely no benefit, you have to build up the crit multiplier with your normal melee which is then carried over to your Exalted weapon, which is ridiculous.

I stand corrected.  That's quite disappointing.  Fortunately for me I tend to use Hysteria sporadically for healing or in a pinch so tend to have combo already but it doesn't feel like the current way is the right way to have it.

12 minutes ago, Chroia said:

On the one hand, I completely get it.

On the other, the post could just as easily have read


and it would apply, no?

That I would accept as it would actually be a change driven by a combination I'm using.  Losing a combination I'm using (specific mod set with specific warfame) because of a combination I'm not using (specific weapon with specific warframes) would be disappointing.  It'd be like saying "Mesa's too powerful so we nerfed Magnetize".  Khora and Atlas getting an unintended bonus from Xoris shouldn't affect my Valkyr who uses Prisma Dual Cleavers.

Edited by Katinka
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You quoted a portion in which DE state that they don't want to nerf the abilities or the mods, and suggest a change that would effectively do exactly that?

I guess that depends on how you read 'nerf'.
Not having them affect exalted weapons, and no other change, does not nerf either the abilities or the mods.

Unless you don't read the OP to consider this an existing problem, with the Xoris only exacerbating it?
Edit: Text doesn't convey tone - this is a genuine question.

Edit 2: @Katinka Gotcha. That's fair.

Edited by Chroia
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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

As stated above, we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others

 

So will Steel Path see any changes to the arbitrary health/armor/shields multipliers? You seem fine with limiting player choice by turning enemies into literal bullet sponges, but not when the Xoris buffs Warframes with exalted abilities.

Edited by Ace-Bounty-Hunter
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Posted (edited)

I find combo duration to be an unfun mechanic in the first place. It's functionally just a penalty for the game deciding it's just not going to spawn enemies for a while, or for using guns for any length of time - and those at least perform reliably and consistently. But, if I'm being honest, the weapon swapping issue would probably bother me less without those weird, long gaps in mob spawn which occasionally happen. Combo duration being frustrating for me is probably more a symptom of that than a problem with the mechanic itself.

But, between that and how unbelievably awkward using heavy melee is on controllers (pressing the joystick buttons is horrendous if they need to be used with any frequency - it's best for toggles like sprinting and a similar issue exists for guns with special attacks which aren't toggled), I find meleeing with any seriousness a bit unfun and unsatisfying anyway. Sure I'll slap something on and quickmelee occasionally, but between combo duration and the way heavy melee is triggered, it ends up awkward to play either style with any seriousness. Those of us who need it asked for the option to continue to trigger heavy attacks by holding the melee button when you guys seemed to have difficulty fixing the timing issues (I'd rather deal with those than spamming the joystick button - particularly with hand problems which are the reason for the controller in the first place), but you guys rather bluntly shot that down without any explanation other than that it's simply not going to happen.


But to be more specific here, the Xoris' special feature allowed us not to be stuck using Naramon which is otherwise kind of lackluster (as is everything compared to Zenurik, to be fair). For Khora, at least, it was a nice QoL tradeoff to perform a less powerful version of something she was already well capable of.

Edited by Andvarja
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Posted (edited)

no more redcrit ;-;
*sad baruuk noise

i actually like the interaction between xoris and baruuk 4
xoris infinite combo actually bring alot of interesting build 

Edited by .OwOkin.
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58 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Greetings, Tenno!

Within The Deadlock Protocol Quest brought the Xoris: a Glaive weapon capable of chaining Melee Combos infinitely. The design intention behind the infinite combo mechanic was predominantly added for the Granum Void’s charged throw moments, to allow you to retain your charges until you were ready. This mechanic opened up new avenues for Melee builds to maximize this infinite Melee Combo Duration, which is great! 

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon, and the conversation of ‘Xoris or you’re doing it wrong’ is greatly restrictive in terms of player choice. This was our oversight, our mistake, and we apologize for the time it took to formulate a plan and address this. So let’s break down our plans:

Our plan is not to nerf the base powers of the Warframes involved, or the Mods that amplify the issue (Blood Rush / Weeping Wounds / Gladiator Mod Set), as doing so isn’t fair as it’s a reaction to a single weapon. In turn, we have planned to only change the interactions with the Xoris directly. 

The first issue: The Xoris’ infinite Melee Combo Duration directly amplifies the Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities that won't reset/decay unless you detonate the Xoris manually using heavy attack, or if you die. Thus scaling with Warframe Abilities that are amplified by your Melee Combo multiplier (Ash Blade Storm, Atlas Landslide, and Khora Whipclaw), and even more so when equipped with Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds.

The second issue: The interaction with the Xoris and Gladiator Mod Set for Warframe Exalted weapons. The Gladiator Mod Set bonus is being carried over from the equipped Melee to the Exalted Warframe weapons such as Baruuk’s Serene Storm, Excalibur’s Exalted Blade, Valkyr’s Talons and Wukong’s Iron Staff.

The solution: The change coming with The Steel Path Update is to have the affected Warframe Exalted Abilities / Exalted weapons reset the Melee Combo Counter ONLY if the Xoris is being used. What you’ll see now is the Critical Chance bonus applying to the first hit on abilities that are intended to scale with regular Melee Combo Multiplier, but then the Melee Combo is reset by the Ability, and does not apply to subsequent hits unless you build it up again with Xoris itself. Exalted Melee ultimates will reset the Xoris' Melee Combo Counter at the time of cast. As stated above, we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole. 

In conclusion, Warframe Abilities / Exalted Warframe weapons affected by this are:

  • Ash Bladestorm
  • Atlas Landslide
  • Baruuk Serene Storm
  • Excalibur Exalted Blade
  • Khora Whipclaw
  • Valkyr Talons
  • Wukong Iron Staff

 

Special note: Gara’s Shattered Lash will now scale with Melee Combo Counter, to be consistent with Khora Whipclaw and Atlas Landslide. The same Xoris restriction will still apply.

TLDR: Certain Warframe Abilities and Exalted weapons will reset the Melee Combo Counter only if the Xoris is being used.

We’ll be continuing to observe how the Xoris interacts with the above when The Steel Path Update arrives in your hands, and our apologies again for the wait. 

Thank you!

God damn it do you understand that Gladiator mod set no longer works on Exalted Melee weapons after you 'fix' Blood rush? We reported this for few hundred times and all of your staff just ignore us, not even willing to tell is that an intentional nerf or what. Give us the information we need!

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Posted (edited)

But this shows a problem with exalted weapons not being able to generate combo at a decent pace 

The mechanics of exalted meleee were always a bit off because they never followed consistent mechanics especially exalted blade and serene storm because they couldn't generate combo with their main damage source the waves and alongside that they could never use acolyte mods which are the only reasons to actually build melee for combo if they are removed the weapons feel more like Aoe primaries which is very disappointing 

These issues can be balanced by letting serene storm and exalted blade generate combos with waves and use acolyte mods in exchange for some numerical tweaks on the stats of said weapons this will make the weapons more consistent with how melee is built whilst also giving these abilities which are currently being out damaged by normal weaponry a good buff to the overall dps values

This issue of the xoris being the "must use" meta showcases the bad mechanics of those abilities not having personalised modding ability and their own combo duration 

This issue can be fixed by giving khora , atlas ,ash etc's abilities their own modding screen and make them far more this will not only make them more flexible but the persistent problem of using statsticks will also partially be solved by these changes 

Edited by (NSW)xenile
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Ya how about you not? All i see is a wall of text goin on at how a lot of these things are suddenly not viable or fun because you just took away a neat interaction because oh crap we don't actually play our game.

 

Combined with steel path being OK WE SRE GONNA MAKE ALL ENWMIES BULLET SPOUNGES INSTEAD OF IT ACTUALLY BEING HARD

 

So you make thins hard by number go up to a ludicrous degree to the oint f it isn't meta it is garbage and them you tak away a thing that makes several warframes able to compete with the meta.

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1 minute ago, Geraion said:

That leaves a sour taste in people's mouthes because they invested resources and time on it, time and resources that now get spat on. It's way worse than "This is fine" a while longer until they get their heads in the game again instead of whatever else it is.

 

It bothers me, because I've loved warframe, but it's going downhill fast, and not only because of content being lacking. Their decision-making isn't really re-assuring for the future either.

Heh I won't go down that road too much because feelings override logic and reason especially when one is passionate, that said I will say this however. If you believe that it is going downhill, then that is all you are going to see, and will be looking for reasons to support that. Happend to me in my WoW days every expansion it seemed they changed my Mage over and over I was saddened and furious several times over. 

Your time, and your money. If you're not enjoying the game take a break, or find something else to clear your head and get a fresh perspective and then confirm or deny what you feel about the game is true or not. There is no law or rule that says a game has to make us happy forever, and there is no reasonable expectation that says we have force ourselves to like a game especially one that changes over time.

You or I have no more control over game development than we do over how a grocery store choses to stock its shelves. Your last line there is near verbatim of commentary I have heard in several former partner podcasts and opinions. So ask yourself is it your opinion or someone else's skewing your own. Regardless of the outcome of that question the end is the same as my advice above it's you, and only ever was. So do what makes ya happy and be well.

Cheers.

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