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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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Really?

So you actually just turned a mediocre weapon with a cool mechanic to absolute garbage. This wasn´t even OP, this was just practical to use, not having to build the combo meter all the time. Now this weapon is basically unsuable by any of those frames.

Thank you DE.

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Can we see the Star Chart usage of the Xoris after the fix of the overwhelming damage output? 
 

I expect almost no change in the amount of people using it, similar to the Bramma, since after all the Xoris was such a good weapon that a slight removal of its abilities won’t matter. Right?

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3 hours ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

Can we see the Star Chart usage of the Xoris after the fix of the overwhelming damage output? 
 

I expect almost no change in the amount of people using it, similar to the Bramma, since after all the Xoris was such a good weapon that a slight removal of its abilities won’t matter. Right?

Frames that uses exalted weapons used it for practicality. Now no frame that uses exalted weapons use it because its a burden compared to other weapons. Why bother with this mediocre weapon when the glaive prime is better, and its combo count doesn't reset if you use exalted weapons while naramom school is active.

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@[DE]Megan We haven't forgotten and still desire answers on the real resson for the xoris nerfs. Because if it was due to 'overwhelming power' like you said it granted to psudo exalted abilities? Then nerf ever single vriven into the ground because those give far Far more power.

 

Because as is? It appears that you made the xoris anti synergise with abilities as way of keeping it from competing against rivens.

Edited by MarrikBroom
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Guys, I think that there's no point in keep posting in this thread, we're all upset about it, yeah, but I mean, if they already decided to nerf it and did not came back on the topic, further complaining about it won't change anything... also the reason of this nerf doesn't matter anymore at this point. I know it's bad, I know it sucks, but if they're not reverting it, just accept it and move on...

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1 hour ago, Greystrun said:

Guys, I think that there's no point in keep posting in this thread, we're all upset about it, yeah, but I mean, if they already decided to nerf it and did not came back on the topic, further complaining about it won't change anything... also the reason of this nerf doesn't matter anymore at this point. I know it's bad, I know it sucks, but if they're not reverting it, just accept it and move on...

Just forgetting and moving on from them blatantly lying to us is what they want, and what allows them to do it over and over again. Remember the promises they made about liches, and RJ that were not delivered on, not to mention squad link. It's just unfulfilled promises and lies, if we keep moving on they will just keep doing it.

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4 hours ago, Moraiel said:

It's just unfulfilled promises and lies, if we keep moving on they will just keep doing it.

The thing is that they probably don't care about further complaints about this, it seems like it's dead and done. I'm saying we should move on from this subject, specifically.

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8 hours ago, Moraiel said:

Just forgetting and moving on from them blatantly lying to us is what they want, and what allows them to do it over and over again. Remember the promises they made about liches, and RJ that were not delivered on, not to mention squad link. It's just unfulfilled promises and lies, if we keep moving on they will just keep doing it.

Which is why I won't let them sweep this aside.

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The weapons mechanic made some Warframe abilities a little too powerful for what they want. So they tweaked that synergy. The weapon itself was not nerfed. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

The weapons mechanic made some Warframe abilities a little too powerful for what they want. So they tweaked that synergy. The weapon itself was not nerfed. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

Then nerf rivens into the ground because they go above and beyond anything this weapon provides.

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On 2020-07-01 at 2:14 PM, Jarriaga said:

 

 

That's true for every single new weapon though, yet you don't see Stahlta, Stropha or Velox every time you go to ESO or Kuva Survival. 

What's different about the Xoris? An extremely convenient buff. A buff so convenient that people are OK with lower damage. I'm pretty certain that DE saw a usage spike for Xoris that was abnormally high even within the context of it being a new weapon.

Nothing but convenience, yes. But an extremely valuable type of convenience. So valuable that it was standing out.

Catchmoon. Kuva Bramma. Xoris. Whatever comes next. When anything is extremely convenient, people flock to it as if it was the only thing in existence. This in turn leads to a nerf not because of it being powerful, but because of how desirable it is over the rest even if less powerful.

if you want to play the new game mode correctly, u have to use the new melee weapon, if u dont, then ur stuck with use a nuke frame and energy pads

and for some people, playing in the open worlds is hard do to load times and such, you cna get syndicate standing from the new game mode, specifically solaris standing 

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3 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

The weapons mechanic made some Warframe abilities a little too powerful for what they want. So they tweaked that synergy. The weapon itself was not nerfed. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

assuming they made all exalted powers moddable, which should have been the way they went around fixing this, u can no longer use the xoris because i will reset back to 0 combo eveyr time u se n exalted attack hat isnt a full exalted mode, basically killing the weapon, and at that point ur better off NOT bringing it at all

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51 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Then nerf rivens into the ground because they go above and beyond anything this weapon provides.

I'm actually looking forward to DE doing exactly that just to see the very same people asking for it move the goalpost or complain about it.

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54 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I'm actually looking forward to DE doing exactly that just to see the very same people asking for it move the goalpost or complain about it.

Im looking forward to de doing it to shoot themselves in the foot by neutering their lootbox stupidity's ability to juice warfrwme qbilities.

 

At least with rivens and weapon augments off the table you get a consistency across the board. Then again I am convinced rivens are lootbox turbo cancer with just enough layers thrown in so de can tell themselves they are still morally good enough to get away with mocking people they don't like on Twitter.

 

But that is only tangentially relevant here.

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23 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Then again I am convinced rivens are lootbox turbo cancer with just enough layers thrown in so de can tell themselves they are still morally good enough to get away with mocking people they don't like on Twitter.

And I'm convinced that people that are upset about this not because of the disposition but because they can't get the absolute best and sell it for thousands of platinum. 

No one should be this upset over this.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

u can no longer use the xoris because i will reset back to 0 combo eveyr time u se n exalted attack hat isnt a full exalted mode, basically killing the weapon, and at that point ur better off NOT bringing it at all

That's actually not true, you can still use the weapon. Several mods can help get the combo count up pretty quick. 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

And I'm convinced that people that are upset about this not because of the disposition but because they can't get the absolute best and sell it for thousands of platinum. 

No one should be this upset over this.

That's actually not true, you can still use the weapon. Several mods can help get the combo count up pretty quick. 

And then your combo count goes to zero if yo use it as a atat stick weapon.

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10 hours ago, Greystrun said:

The thing is that they probably don't care about further complaints about this, it seems like it's dead and done. I'm saying we should move on from this subject, specifically.

 

6 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Which is why I won't let them sweep this aside.

 

15 hours ago, Moraiel said:

Just forgetting and moving on from them blatantly lying to us is what they want, and what allows them to do it over and over again. Remember the promises they made about liches, and RJ that were not delivered on, not to mention squad link. It's just unfulfilled promises and lies, if we keep moving on they will just keep doing it.

 

16 hours ago, Greystrun said:

Guys, I think that there's no point in keep posting in this thread, we're all upset about it, yeah, but I mean, if they already decided to nerf it and did not came back on the topic, further complaining about it won't change anything... also the reason of this nerf doesn't matter anymore at this point. I know it's bad, I know it sucks, but if they're not reverting it, just accept it and move on...

As many have already noticed and as a service to the 60 or so people still following this thread:

DE DEvelopers don't read, follow or consult in any way the official forums.

A member of the forum staff is in charge of selecting, summarizing and sanitizing anything he/she finds of potential interest.

Allegedly this very same person also had issues of actively antagonizing the community and other unpleasantness. I don't know who he/she is and I don't give a kuaka's tail about it.

If you want to complain and be actually heard the forum is functionally useless for that.

If you want to be heard use r/warframe on reddit, or the public twitter accounts of the developers and BE CIVIL

Considering how disorganized the studio is due to tennocon preparations, the pandemic and working from home and DE own brand of homebrew chaos... you can bet that those that actually decide about the game haven't got the foggiest idea of how badly received most of the recent changes/nerfs were.

If you want to be heard: warframe reddit, official DE twitter channels, social media in general.

Again: BE CIVIL otherwise you'll only be ignored even if your points are valid.

DEvelopers have an history of ignoring opinions and critiques that don't fit with their "view" - it was eye opening watching a past interview with DE Steve in which he expressed how "disheartening" was to hear all the critique over most of the past updates... but maybe if people start telling them what isn't working things could change? after all a single player on twitch made so that universal medallions actually aren't so because conclave...

Edited by Ikusias
corrected a smattering of mistakes
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2 hours ago, Ikusias said:

DEvelopers have an history of ignoring opinions and critiques that don't fit with their "view" - it was eye opening watching a past interview with DE Steve in which he expressed how "disheartening" was to hear all the critique over most of the past updates... but maybe if people start telling them what isn't working things could change? after all a single player on twitch made so that universal medallions actually aren't so because conclave...

They listen. They know. They just don't agree with said feedback and thus don't use it.

Look at the much maligned damage 2.5 revision proposal from late 2017 and then look at the recent status changes:

This was the original proposal back then:

Quote

In an update coming soon, we will be making changes to IPS status effects and proc damage calculation. Our primary goal was improving Impact and Puncture; both of these procs will now scale in effectiveness, based on the damage dealt. An Impact proc with a small damage output (like a single Akstilletto bullet) will still only cause a short stagger, while an Impact proc with high damage output (like a Vulkar shot) can scale all the way up to a ragdoll, temporarily immobilizing them. In a similar manner, Puncture procs will now scale in effectiveness from 10% to 75% damage reduction, based on the damage dealt at the time of proc

And here are the proposed changes for Puncture and Impact taking place on March 4th when dealing multiple repeated procs:

Quote

Impact

Repeat single-target Impact Status Effects will escalate the efficacy of the Impact Status (from Stagger to full Ragdoll).

Puncture

The first Puncture Status Effect has an enemy deal 30% less Damage. Subsequent Puncture Status add +5% weakening, leading to up to 75% (capped). Each Puncture Status has a duration of 6 Seconds.

Back then, there was a huge backlash against the proposed changes. On Impact because ragdolls can break heatshot flows and melee combos, and on puncture because having an enemy deal less damage is meaningless when you get 100% damage reduction from said enemy by either killing them or using a CC ability. So it seems DE decided to stick to their guns and try again 2.3 years later with the same core concept of what the "higher level proc" would do, but applied upon repetition instead of based on how much damage it dealt.

It was not a matter of if, but when. If that doesn't say that some tings are set in stone and it's their way or the high way, nothing will.

They do have some wiggle room and things that are subject to change based on community feedback (Such as Impact now opening enemies to finishers rather than a ragdoll), but only within an overton window of allowed changes. Other things are set in stone.

Few situations will make DE revert their decisions. Venari and Viber are examples. Venari because even the tooltip said otherwise, and Viber because the scale of the nerf was monumental with no way around it.

The Xoris situation on the other hand boils down to taking DE's justification in one of two ways:

Option one: DE's full in-context statement:

On 2020-07-01 at 12:55 PM, [DE]Megan said:

the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon

Option two: Cut the full statement and remove key context so the meaning of the sentence changes:

On 2020-07-01 at 12:55 PM, [DE]Megan said:

the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention

Option 1 means that the damage output itself is fine. You are allowed to use reivens and stack sticks as long as there's no infinite combo involved. Not even Naramon gives an infinite combo. Near-infinite, yes, but even Naramon decays.

Option 2 on the other hand means not allowed under any circumstance or situation, which would indeed be a lie on DE's end considering Rivens in stat sticks.

That alone changes DE's perception on this situation. They may even find it hard to see the player's perspective when all they argue is from option 2, which makes it hard to be constructive since any argument would resolve around a false premise devoid of the full context. After all, "The mechanic did a bad job" and "The mechanic did a bad job when asked to program the cable box" don't have the same implications, because context matters.

Those people arguing from option 2 will go nowhere because they can not argue against point 1 without recognizing that there is no such thing as an infinite combo riven and without acknowledging that Xoris itself can have its own rivens. And they likely know it. This means that DE's justification was honest. You are allowed to do Y or Z, but not Y AND Z together. But that response does not satisfy those who argue from a position of option two. It's no coincidence that they keep pushing for the "real" reason, which is ironic considering they themselves are not challenging the real justification given by DE; only the half they feel they can argue against. They want for DE to be "honest" when they themselves are not being honest when rejecting DE's statement using option two as a base. More than ironic, it's quite hypocritical to demand others live up to the standards they themselves don't live up to.

How can constructive feedback be extracted from a position of hypocrisy? Even if those players don't mean to, that's how they come across.

So if they want to be heard, the only real thing they can do is vote with their wallets. Leave the game. Stop promoting Warframe and engaging with the community. Become a lost customer. Otherwise they will be screaming into the void forever no matter the communication channel (Forums, reddit, Twitter) as long as they continue to argue from option 2, which is unlikely to be recognized as constructive or coming from a good place or good intentions. Those require acknowledging the full context.

Edited by Jarriaga
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My critique/advice was mainly that the forum is not, unfortunately, the place were we can voice our opinions, critiques and/or suggestions and be heard.

DE usually moves only when reddit or social media are in arms about something or one or more of the biggest partners openly slam them for bad decisions.

Regarding the Xoris:

- infinite melee combo interaction with pseudo exalted weapons wasn't probably tested,

- it wasn't anything gamebreaking as it offered a choice to using specific focus school + high disposition statstic

- removal of a choice isn't a good choice if it removes alternatives to a meta

it reminds me of when DE removed selfdamage transference from Trinity's link,

That was an interesting strategy that required a specific build, a lot of involvement because the timing was essential and gave an alternative to Saryn for ESO, as it was viable only when large number sof enemies were massed together.

It got utterly removed because it was not how DE intended the frame to be played... so everyone retunred to playing Saryn...

 

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20 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

it reminds me of when DE removed selfdamage transference from Trinity's link,

That was an interesting strategy that required a specific build, a lot of involvement because the timing was essential and gave an alternative to Saryn for ESO, as it was viable only when large number sof enemies were massed together.

It got utterly removed because it was not how DE intended the frame to be played... so everyone retunred to playing Saryn...

At times, what the developers envision and what the players want are inherently incompatible things with no middle ground. Something's got to give. For reference, that is the very same reason why they will never give bleed procs to enemies affected by Nyx's abilities no matter how much the community ask for it. DE envisioned her as not dealing direct damage as per Reb. That automatically eliminates many of the popular Nyx rework ideas from existence as they are flat-out incompatible with the overton window tied to her design.

People had asked for DE to stick to their guns for a long time. They are now doing so and facing the backlash. This is precisely why they are selective with the feedback they choose to act upon. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And by this very same token you don't get to choose when DE are allowed to stick to their guns. 

So, since people can't go left and right at once, they should choose to:

1) Make their peace with the changes.

2) Leave the game if they don't agree with the changes and can't argue against them.

3) Learn to challenge DE while in the context of their goals, which is the closest thing to a middle ground there will be and what is most likely to actually lead to a change (Other than economic repercussions, which people complaining while still playing the game don't contribute to).

Edited by Jarriaga
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22 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

At times, what the developers envision and what the players want are inherently incompatible things with no middle ground. Something's got to give. For reference, that is the very same reason why they will never give bleed procs to enemies affected by Nyx's abilities no matter how much the community ask for it. DE envisioned her as not dealing direct damage as per Reb. That automatically eliminates many of the popular Nyx rework ideas from existence as they are flat-out incompatible with the overton window tied to her design.

People had asked for DE to stick to their guns for a long time. They are now doing so and facing the backlash. This is precisely why they are selective with the feedback they choose to act upon. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And by this very same token you don't get to choose when DE are allowed to stick to their guns. 

So, since people can't go left and right at once, they should choose to:

1) Make their peace with the changes.

2) Leave the game if they don't agree with the changes and can't argue against them.

3) Learn to challenge DE while in the context of their goals, which is the closest thing to a middle ground there will be and what is most likely to actually lead to a change (Other than economic repercussions, which people complaining while still playing the game don't contribute to).

Jeez are they paying you more than 2$ for that one?

Not everyone saying "DE SHOULD STICK TO THEIR GUNS" is in the same pool as "THIS WAS INCREDIBLY STUPID, CHANGE THIS."
There may be overlap, but that doesn't mean you can just brush everyone off in the previous 52 pages.  I don't recall ever saying "DE should stick to their guns", in fact I'm more of a whiny "This is in an unacceptable state, and you should reconsider the current state of the system.  Here are my complaints." person.  It makes it a lot easier to give up after all the prime access packs I've bought when they keep making decisions that should embarrass a studio that can't decide if their game is a power fantasy or a difficult game.  The two are even, arguably, mutually exclusive.  There are a lot of poor decisions that are being put into this game lately, it's just more and more people noticing it.

Your instant dismissal is precisely the reason I can't enjoy playing Warframe the way I want to.  You, or at the absolute least people like you, are the reason that Stationary Objective Healing is so garbage.  You want DE to stick to their guns even when they're wrong.  The complaints about the Xoris are firmly rooted in the fact that DE cannot find people to play the game the way their player base will.  It's very common that once you start taking a paycheck for something, you stop playing the same way.

 

I even warned them: It wasn't ready for the players.

Little did I know how UNREADY it was.

TLDR: Get off your horse before I pelt you with e-water balloons.  Not everyone that dislikes this change want DE to stick to their guns.  Some people just want the game to be fun and not get hamstrung by DE's guns which look more like mono-filament wires.

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27 minutes ago, Opyt said:

Your instant dismissal is precisely the reason I can't enjoy playing Warframe the way I want to.  You, or at the absolute least people like you, are the reason that Stationary Objective Healing is so garbage.  You want DE to stick to their guns even when they're wrong.  The complaints about the Xoris are firmly rooted in the fact that DE cannot find people to play the game the way their player base will.  It's very common that once you start taking a paycheck for something, you stop playing the same way.

 

TLDR: Get off your horse before I pelt you with e-water balloons.  Not everyone that dislikes this change want DE to stick to their guns.  Some people just want the game to be fun and not get hamstrung by DE's guns which look more like mono-filament wires.

This game is not deigned by committee beyond the overton window allowed exclusively to the design council when asked to.

People like me are the reason you can't enjoy the game. People like you are the reason why I and those like me can't enjoy the game. It's quite a hypocritical stance for you to take when it's the exact same thing from my point of view with regards to you and those like you, so please get off your own high horse.

I was very pissed when DE nerfed Fortuna's week 1 difficulty because of people like you. So now you get to feel like I felt back then.

I was very pissed when DE changed Arbitration's original "No revives" system. So now you get to feel like I felt back then.

"DE are killing the fun out of the game" is the biggest cop-out argument anyone can use. For some people, comedies are fun. For some other people, horror movies are fun. Pretending "fun" is an objective measurement rather than a preference is disingenuous. And this is precisely why DE should not listen to NEITHER you or me. They should do what they feel is best for their game. If you like it fine. If I like it fine. If they piss you off fine. If they piss me off fine. They can't please everyone. 

Edited by Jarriaga
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