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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Making a change to the Iron Staff denying it from benefitting from "x", be it Gladiator set or Pressure Point, would not be an indirect nerf.

That would be a very direct nerf.

The difference is that the Gladiator mods don't go on your Iron Staff.
So yes, your example is a direct nerf, removing the gladiator set bonus is not.

Which is why I said what I said with regards to the segment of the OP I quoted:
I understood from the OP that the reason the Xoris is getting this change is that it enables the combo-mods affecting abilities with no downside (beyond foregoing weapon augments or high-disp rivens).
Disallow the combo-mods, and you both treat the root of the problem, and don't need to mess with the Xoris's gimmick wrt exalted abilities - which still increases ability damage by up to x3.

Edited by Chroia
Expanded on rationale.
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I don't understand this logic.  So, I can continue to use my Jaw Sword with riven and Naramon and maintain my 12x Whipclaw but can't if using the Xoris?  How does that make sense?

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Posted (edited)

So instead of xoris being the best melee to use as a state stick you are making it the worst ??? I get the change but to all the people who ar saying it was mandetory no it wasnt if you had a god melee riven and use narramon you were dealing more damage this just let you use zenurik (since all other schools are trash) everyone saw this nerf coming but seeing it go from top to bottom this quick is bizzar nothing to address combo disappearing with a single heavy attack/not hitting something for 5 sec but yeah lets just dig this weapons grave and call it a day this is just lazy development period.

Edited by (PS4)MJ-Cena7
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We get a terrible game mode, and lose a way to deal with it. YAY!

Having fun in online video games is not looked at with happy eye from gave devs, huh?!

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On the topic of Khora, I think her 1 should switch with her 4 because most Khora players will always go brainlessly pressing her 1 as if it's a press-4-to-win abilities. lol

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1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

It's our mistake that the infinite combo resulted in these scenarios, and I understand why there is frustration around it. As said above, we didn't want to make an overwhelming nerf to Warframe abilities/Exalted weapons across the board, so we decided to only change the interaction with Xoris directly. 

Do expect players(those who made used of this exploit) to say Steel Path is very difficult, because they can't use their infinite-combo powered abilities now. lmao

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Just now, CrimsonBladeZeta said:

At least the way they balance the game doesn't seem like they play their game. Please, pressing a few buttons in the game doesn't mean you play it. 

Okay now that we have established they do play the game. Adjusting many of these systems you refer to is not so simple as pressing a few buttons ethier. The combat systems is the literal core of this game and given the nature of spaghetti code changing one or two things can have unintended consequences. It takes a main line update to fix these issues most of the time since they found out in the past just what can happen when they start tinkering around with it outside of that update type. 

A larger overhaul is needed. And since the Public Test Clusters so far have been a rousing success the next time we see a combat update and or a Focus update expect them to be on the Public Test that way they will have more eyes on the ground to see things they can miss. 

Honestly we have documented video of Rebecca, Megan, and Helen all playing the game and running into bugs. Do you honestly think with any solid reason they wouldn't say anything? That's just plain ridiculous to think they would just be silent about their experiences the same goes for the Dev's who do stream themselves playing the game. We have them in Shy's podcasts talking about how they have made adjustments, and the philosophy of  how they determine nerfs. 

Take a breather and do some research, clearly they do play the game, clearly they do make the game, and they unlike us however are aware of what limitations they are dealing with past, present, and future.  Really just take some time to think about it from another point of view.

 

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Our plan is not to nerf the base powers of the Warframes involved, or the Mods that amplify the issue (Blood Rush / Weeping Wounds / Gladiator Mod Set), as doing so isn’t fair as it’s a reaction to a single weapon. In turn, we have planned to only change the interactions with the Xoris directly. 

 

 

You've never been fair. When you see weapons like Brahma now, when you see warframes in their coffin, I never thought it was fair. DE You have eliminated one way to narrow the gap in Reven Mode even a little.

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7 minutes ago, Chroia said:

So yes, your example is a direct nerf, removing the gladiator set bonus is not.

Of course it would be. DE would have to make a very specific change stopping these weapons from benefiting from the effect. That's a direct nerf to these weapons, because they currently do benefit from the effect and the change would intentionally stop that.

So what on earth are you even on about?

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Oorel said:

I really disagree that this is currently overpowered.

Warframe0168.jpg

- He was Saryn.

- He killed more than double the number of enemies. 

- I was not using the Helios/Deconstructor stat stick.

- I was not using the Xoris, so no infinite combo counter bonus.

- I did 96% damage at half the number of enemies. That means I was literally doing over 60 times his damage.

- Now imagine the Xoris being involved, freeing me from Naramon and combo duration mods for even more damage or energy with Zenurik.

Come on dude. If that is not overpowered then nothing is.

Edited by Jarriaga
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Never saw it coming!

This is so bad and backwards.

No-no, I get why you do this(even if I don't agree with it), but proposed(and imminent) changes are just straight up bad. Build up combo with Xoris for one time use on spammable abilities like Landslide and Whipclaw? Really? And to add insult to injury it's a generally useless glaive (yes, guys, useless - nobody sane uses glaives, not even Xoris in Granum Void, because it's useless even there and overall counterproductive) with 1.3 meters of range with rather strange and wonky hit patterns for all of its stances, so building up combo will be just a huge pain in the back. So we'll just go from "Xoris or bust"(which isn't exactly true to begin with for a lot of reasons) to "anything but Xoris", like it was before(because Xoris will just make your abilities useless).

Not to mention that current Xoris made possible some novelty builds, like crit based Landslide. It was possible before, sure, but it was such a huge pain to keep up the counter it was never viable. This change will effectively kill it, because why not.

And of course, you will break the game and we'll get a combo reset with all weapons, not just Xoris.

I really miss DE which decided that being able to carry all 4 Dragon Keys can be a "bug turned feature" because it's fun and eases player's burdens. Current DE is all about "no fun allowed", "statistics above all, look at these spreadsheets and charts" and "we all grind together"(it took you half a year to acknowledge that murmur farm is ridiculous).

PS Where do I apply for Forma refund?

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1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

Greetings, Tenno!

Within The Deadlock Protocol Quest brought the Xoris: a Glaive weapon capable of chaining Melee Combos infinitely. The design intention behind the infinite combo mechanic was predominantly added for the Granum Void’s charged throw moments, to allow you to retain your charges until you were ready. This mechanic opened up new avenues for Melee builds to maximize this infinite Melee Combo Duration, which is great! 

However, the overwhelming Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities was not our intention with an infinite Melee Combo weapon, and the conversation of ‘Xoris or you’re doing it wrong’ is greatly restrictive in terms of player choice. This was our oversight, our mistake, and we apologize for the time it took to formulate a plan and address this. So let’s break down our plans:

Our plan is not to nerf the base powers of the Warframes involved, or the Mods that amplify the issue (Blood Rush / Weeping Wounds / Gladiator Mod Set), as doing so isn’t fair as it’s a reaction to a single weapon. In turn, we have planned to only change the interactions with the Xoris directly. 

The first issue: The Xoris’ infinite Melee Combo Duration directly amplifies the Damage output of certain Warframe Abilities that won't reset/decay unless you detonate the Xoris manually using heavy attack, or if you die. Thus scaling with Warframe Abilities that are amplified by your Melee Combo multiplier (Ash Blade Storm, Atlas Landslide, and Khora Whipclaw), and even more so when equipped with Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds.

The second issue: The interaction with the Xoris and Gladiator Mod Set for Warframe Exalted weapons. The Gladiator Mod Set bonus is being carried over from the equipped Melee to the Exalted Warframe weapons such as Baruuk’s Serene Storm, Excalibur’s Exalted Blade, Valkyr’s Talons and Wukong’s Iron Staff.

The solution: The change coming with The Steel Path Update is to have the affected Warframe Exalted Abilities / Exalted weapons reset the Melee Combo Counter ONLY if the Xoris is being used. What you’ll see now is the Critical Chance bonus applying to the first hit on abilities that are intended to scale with regular Melee Combo Multiplier, but then the Melee Combo is reset by the Ability, and does not apply to subsequent hits unless you build it up again with Xoris itself. Exalted Melee ultimates will reset the Xoris' Melee Combo Counter at the time of cast. As stated above, we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole. 

In conclusion, Warframe Abilities / Exalted Warframe weapons affected by this are:

  • Ash Bladestorm
  • Atlas Landslide
  • Baruuk Serene Storm
  • Excalibur Exalted Blade
  • Khora Whipclaw
  • Valkyr Talons
  • Wukong Iron Staff

 

Special note: Gara’s Shattered Lash will now scale with Melee Combo Counter, to be consistent with Khora Whipclaw and Atlas Landslide. The same Xoris restriction will still apply.

TLDR: Certain Warframe Abilities and Exalted weapons will reset the Melee Combo Counter only if the Xoris is being used.

We’ll be continuing to observe how the Xoris interacts with the above when The Steel Path Update arrives in your hands, and our apologies again for the wait. 

Thank you!

Uh... why not just give all glaives or better yet all weapons infinite counter. Then, give all the nonweaponizedifiederated waru furaemos their own respective exalteds (start with nezha exalted glaive) and then rebalance melee from there (or, combo counter multiplier). 

Most meta content creators will say, as well as lots of normie players, that melee is currently top dawg in terms of dmg and efficacy. 

 

ALTERNATIVELY

 You could just put a detonator timer on the glaive that depletes shields and gives a substantial knockdown if a heavy throw isnt used within a certain period of time. 

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2 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Okay now that we have established they do play the game. Adjusting many of these systems you refer to is not so simple as pressing a few buttons ethier. The combat systems is the literal core of this game and given the nature of spaghetti code changing one or two things can have unintended consequences. It takes a main line update to fix these issues most of the time since they found out in the past just what can happen when they start tinkering around with it outside of that update type. 

A larger overhaul is needed. And since the Public Test Clusters so far have been a rousing success the next time we see a combat update and or a Focus update expect them to be on the Public Test that way they will have more eyes on the ground to see things they can miss. 

Honestly we have documented video of Rebecca, Megan, and Helen all playing the game and running into bugs. Do you honestly think with any solid reason they wouldn't say anything? That's just plain ridiculous to think they would just be silent about their experiences the same goes for the Dev's who do stream themselves playing the game. We have them in Shy's podcasts talking about how they have made adjustments, and the philosophy of  how they determine nerfs. 

Take a breather and do some research, clearly they do play the game, clearly they do make the game, and they unlike us however are aware of what limitations they are dealing with past, present, and future.  Really just take some time to think about it from another point of view.

 

Yep, a simple yes of no question need weeks to think about. Nice job DE, please play your game in a higher skill level and test out different combinations.

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7 minutes ago, CrimsonBladeZeta said:

The developers never play their game, so don't expect they will understand. 

But in terms of what you say, you just speak my words.

I think it's a time thing rather than not understanding. I'm a programmer, and I've had to fix and maintain things. Warframe is a much larger project though, and the time invested into it probably doesn't leave a lot of other time. In addition, sometimes the problem is that they have too much of an understanding of their game. Being too close to the core makes it hard to see all the details that we do. 

I think they understand this, and that is part of the reason why they post here. They're the devs, they don't have to tell us before making these changes, but we have more eyes than they do, and their post at least shows an attempt to take that into consideration. 

The reason I posted was because it felt like the focus wasn't actually on the true problem: stat-sticks being in themselves a limitation. Well, that and I really dislike arbitrary interactions. Hopefully it helps inform them, if not for now, then at least for future fixes.

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Just now, Vicidomini said:

I think it's a time thing rather than not understanding. I'm a programmer, and I've had to fix and maintain things. Warframe is a much larger project though, and the time invested into it probably doesn't leave a lot of other time. In addition, sometimes the problem is that they have too much of an understanding of their game. Being too close to the core makes it hard to see all the details that we do. 

I think they understand this, and that is part of the reason why they post here. They're the devs, they don't have to tell us before making these changes, but we have more eyes than they do, and their post at least shows an attempt to take that into consideration. 

The reason I posted was because it felt like the focus wasn't actually on the true problem: stat-sticks being in themselves a limitation. Well, that and I really dislike arbitrary interactions. Hopefully it helps inform them, if not for now, then at least for future fixes.

Don't have time..... yeah don't have time for their job, don't have enough time for their work? Then start and keep working. Or..... hire someone that is good at this game to do all this.

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7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

Come on dude. If that is not overpowered then nothing is.

His point is that xoris interactions are not OP. Your point seems to be that whipclaw is OP. Something doesn't add up here, mate.

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Saw it coming the moment I saw the infinity symbol by the combo duration. Didn’t bother building it because of that. Thanks for not senselessly nerfing everything but the problem this time.

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3 minutes ago, CrimsonBladeZeta said:

Yep, a simple yes of no question need weeks to think about. Nice job DE, please play your game in a higher skill level and test out different combinations.

Well it only took about one and a half weeks for videos of the build to start popping up on former partner channels that leaves a few days of discussion since no working on weekends they are in Canada after all and do like to avoid Crunch. Factoring that and other possible bugs and issues on the work docket with setting up the hard mode test cluster. So yeah.

Also you keep adding criteria there, first it was play the game, now its play the game like people who do nonstop for their twitch viewers. Or do you have something else for me to rationalize into the light?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

His point is that xoris interactions are not OP. Your point seems to be that whipclaw is OP. Something doesn't add up here, mate.

It serves to exemplify why that I was already breaking the game to such an abusive degree without the Xoris, with Xoris pushing it even more. It's the same result for everyone because they either have:

- Steel Charge over Swift Momentum.

- Zenurik over Naramon (Infinite energy).

- Another damage mod over Drifting Contact/Body Count.

Literally Xoris breaks it even more. It's the same regardless of the frame independently from the degree.

Edited by Jarriaga
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This makes sense, but why not a different solution: for warframe abilities that use a "stat stick" (ie Whipclaw, Landslide, Slash Dash), they instead use that warframe's exalted weapon in the case the warframe has one (Excalibur), or they gain one like Garuda's if they don't. Then those abilities would only reference their respective Exalted Weapon for stats.

Then, when it comes to Combo Counter, you have 2 that you track: your equipped melee weapon, and your exalted weapon. The abilities in question would only ever reference the exalted weapon. As for building combo counter, the abilities that reference it could also build it, and the amount built per enemy hit could be tuned.

From a layman's perspective, the above would seem like a lot more coding, but it would be taking this unintended situation with Xoris and turning it into a chance to overhaul a system that needs work anyway (abilities with "stat sticks", exalted weapons in general, and combo counter with both).

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2 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Well it only took about one and a half weeks for videos of the build to start popping up on former partner channels that leaves a few days of discussion since no working on weekends they are in Canada after all and do like to avoid Crunch. Factoring that and other possible bugs and issues on the work docket with setting up the hard mode test cluster. So yeah.

Also you keep adding criteria there, first it was play the game, now its play the game like people who do nonstop for their twitch viewers. Or do you have something else for me to rationalize into the light?

You can keep protecting them, just go on. Facts are usually harsh you know.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

Special note: Gara’s Shattered Lash will now scale with Melee Combo Counter, to be consistent with Khora Whipclaw and Atlas Landslide. The same Xoris restriction will still apply.

Wow, that is awesome! I look forward to trying Gara out after this change.

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