Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons

[GREF_TM]

8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It serves to exemplify why that I was already breaking the game to such an abusive degree without the Xoris, with Xoris pushing it even more. 

And that's exactly where it doesn't add up. You try to use this as an argument of xoris being OP, yet xoris doesn't even affect your points. With a standard riven stat stick you would've been using before xoris was introduced, you'd still outdamage that saryn, in fact by about twice as more compared to if you were using xoris. All it shows is that whipclaw is OP, with or without xoris.

 

Xoris doesn't push whipclaw anywhere, it's an option that allows you to sacrifice your damage in favor of laziness of use and ability to swich to zenurik.

[Vernoc]

love the gara changes!

tbh, i don´t see why u nerv a weapon that is only for baruuk good and for most other frames a downgrade, but i´m glad that DE isn´t afraid to do changes that are unpopular

[DragoonStorm1]

40 minutes ago, CrimsonBladeZeta said:

Well it is not like build up combo or what, it is the fact that, exalted melee even when they build up combo they cannot stack the gladiator set mod

but..they do
just not from their combo counter, they do from the stat stick melee's counter.
Even blood rush works on stuff like whipclaw
but gladiator set on desert wind and stuff.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

And that's exactly where it doesn't add up. You try to use this as an argument of xoris being OP, yet xoris doesn't even affect your points.

It does because it pushes everything even more. The degree of the frame is irrelevant because of the many limitations addressed by the Xoris. If the damage alone was what mattered then the Xoris wouldn't have caused such a usage spike and flood of Khora videos. 

[PookieNumnums]

16 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Okay now that we have established they do play the game. Adjusting many of these systems you refer to is not so simple as pressing a few buttons ethier. The combat systems is the literal core of this game and given the nature of spaghetti code changing one or two things can have unintended consequences. It takes a main line update to fix these issues most of the time since they found out in the past just what can happen when they start tinkering around with it outside of that update type. 

A larger overhaul is needed. And since the Public Test Clusters so far have been a rousing success the next time we see a combat update and or a Focus update expect them to be on the Public Test that way they will have more eyes on the ground to see things they can miss. 

Honestly we have documented video of Rebecca, Megan, and Helen all playing the game and running into bugs. Do you honestly think with any solid reason they wouldn't say anything? That's just plain ridiculous to think they would just be silent about their experiences the same goes for the Dev's who do stream themselves playing the game. We have them in Shy's podcasts talking about how they have made adjustments, and the philosophy of  how they determine nerfs. 

Take a breather and do some research, clearly they do play the game, clearly they do make the game, and they unlike us however are aware of what limitations they are dealing with past, present, and future.  Really just take some time to think about it from another point of view.

 

They play it, but do they PLAY it tho. Not like hardcore players. Not like 7 year devoted players. Not like those of us who would, in an instant, sell our souls to the orokin for a chance to ride the zariman, void terror survival not guaranteed. 

They might "play it" but some of us "live it". Eat, breathe, and poo technocyte. 

And while some may make the assumption that nolifers are sad and need to get real lives or whatever condescending viewpoint enables invalidation of certain perspectives, that type of dismissal has no place in a discussion of this nature so, i will repeat. 

They "play it" but are they PLAYING IT THO? 

What even are their goals. 

That should be an open dialogue between the players and devs. 

What do the devs want out of warframe, what do they want it to be, what state of existence do they envision thier created universe to inhabit and how ultimately do they want a) their created characters to interact with that universe and b) how do they want players to interact with that universe. 

It seems to me after all this time, closing in on 15k hours on steam, seven years of devotion, almost 6500 hrs in game, and over 1200 dollars in monetary support for the game and universe i love most, that theyre content with warframe being just a game and not a living evolving interactive alternate dimension where its consumers see it as a full fledged hobby. No, i won't go so far as to say esport. But to that level of fan dedication, i would love for them to desire that. 

Playing at the highest level, no not enemy level but player performance and dedication level, would i think put them more in tune with where the community sits, where they think the devs sit, and where they think the game sits and should be. 

 

Side note: its really disheartening that there is the running idea that this games in a perpetual state of "no fun allowed" and "take what you get because youre lucky to get what we give you". 

No, im not saying that IS the way it is or that I second that notion but it definitely exists among players and that, for my favorite game and universe, breaks my heart a little more each time i see it. 

QwQ

[anfuerudo]

Btw, that damage percentage on end mission screen is probably a bug. It's been really buggy since U28.0.

[CrimsonBladeZeta]

Just now, DragoonStorm1 said:

but..they do
just not from their combo counter, they do from the stat stick melee's counter.
Even blood rush works on stuff like whipclaw
but gladiator set on desert wind and stuff.

I mean.... they cannot stack the set bonus with their own combo counter, which previously before the blood rush fix they can. And no patch note saying this is a nerf. 

[GREF_TM]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

It does because it pushes everything even more. The degree of the frame is irrelevant because of the many limitations addressed by the Xoris.

 

 

Alright, we nerf xoris. But guess what? Whipclaw still outdamages saryn, just like it did before xoris. How did nerfing xoris solved the problem, again?

[Vicidomini]

Just now, CrimsonBladeZeta said:

Don't have time..... yeah don't have time for their job, don't have enough time for their work? Then start and keep working. Or..... hire someone that is good at this game to do all this.

Right now you are only focusing on one item. Their job is not simply this one item. No one is going to be hired just to only look at stat sticks. There is no one who has time to take care of every single little system in Warframe. So, yeah, I'm fairly certain that they don't have time to take in every single detail regarding this problem. This little thing is not worth losing focus on their current projects. 

It's kinda like, why do people high up in management get secretaries? It's not that they can't do the work, it's that they don't have time to do the work. They are definitely working on other projects, and this is just a such a band-aid patch suggestion because of that.

In addition, being good at the game does not mean equate being good at developing and maintaining the game.

If you were a CEO at a company, and someone said there was this problem with rent or something. You wouldn't consider that the place had so and so problems, you would just throw money to fix it. However, the employees would see this or that wrong causing the rent to be high. You as the CEO has literally no time to figure out those little problems. At least in our case, the CEO goes to gather information about the problems. 

TLDR: Yes, compared to us thousands of users, they definitely don't have as much time on their hands to understand all the details of this problem.

[DConagher]

See, this is what I don't get- Xoris has a dispo of .5, right? New weapons being too op and all that "sense".

Atlas and Khora, as well as Gara, scale off melee rivens. Even if you factor INFINITE combo duration, as an example with khora for Bloodrush/Gladmod scaling, I'd rather have the sheer increase in damage that a 2 pos/neg riven gives, on the available higher dispo melee weps.

AS IT IS, Khora, Gara, and Atlas are restricted by what melee they can effectively use- but if you break that and make them exalted, and twist how they interact, or even if you make them separately mod-able and give them a 200%-300% damage increase, that'd still be a *nerf* to their power. Side topic, but wanted to put it out there.

Right now, with my Atlas and a Jaw Sword, I can get 450% from the riven alone, and a further 100% from Blade of Truth (jaw sword). I don't have a khora rolled up quite yet, and I haven't built Gara, but I have a decent chunk of time invested in Rock-lad.


If you give Atlas/Khora/Gara say, 400-500% more damage (or in all fairness, something closer to 350% due to having 2 free modslots), and made the ability separately mod-able, it'd be sort of breaking *even* at that point. We'd just finally be able to run something other than a statstick melee, and make use of attack-speed and range mods on said sword. Ya know, actually use heavy attacks and all that.

But yes, let me lose all that 550% damage, so that I can bloodrush and gladiator scale his 5% base CC. We need that melee combo scaling, definitely. 
On Khora, with her actually respectable CC, let me again lose that sheer massive base damage increase, so that I can make her consistent orange/red crits always there (when you could just run naramon anyway!).
Gara? Yes, let me scale her non-existent CC with bloodrush- 12x60x0= big numbers! monkaS
Friend of mine who mains Ash is totally gonna drop his nikana that redcrit slashprocs the world *and* swap his focus school, for a mediocre weapon that *can't* use rivens  because its new. Infinite combo, man!

In the case of exalted frames, I mean cool whatever- naramon exists regardless, but I can see the point there. Bug fixes intended, neat.

When it comes to the "quote exalted on quote" frames though, this is nothing new- if anything, this patch is just gonna be a buff to Gara. I'd never use the Xoris over a passable statstick riven, purely on the basis of .5 dispo with nothing else seriously brought to the table. MAYBE on khora, but that's stretching it as things are.

So we have the roster of the following 1's (with a bare-bones attempt at comedy announcements here):

*ahem*
Coming in with a earth-shattering crash, weighing in at 350 damage of pure impact. Good luck knocking this titan down- go toe to toe with his combo if you want that crown! 5%- He doesn't need crit, 5%- he doesn't need status, he'll rock your world with a Code 0-2-4: an uppercut SMASH! Build up that heap of rubble, he'll make it a throne- the earthern king on his mountain home: ATLAS!

Whipping in ferociously, with Venari as her corner, weighting in at 300 of any and all physical variety. Don't count her out based on raw numbers, No! She's got a whopping 25% crit and 20% status chance to back up that whip of hers, and her accumulating stacks make it rain! Chains so clean, eviscerating the scene, pull the whole squad together- she brings her own ring: KHORA!

And now, the Queen of Shards. While she cannot crit nor apply a status, let me ask you... who needs it?

A record setting base weigh in: ladies and gentlemen, 800 raw, slash or puncture! You heard it here first, She now also scales with melee combo! She'll glass you up- make you shimmer and shine- Vitrify you, leave you battered and crying! She doesn't need a cat or a few pebbles, nay: Give it up for: GARA!

Get ready for a high class bout! FIGHT!

[Gaz_TTV]

Holy moley this is one of the  biggest nerfs you guys have ever done! Guessing blood rush working on khora is up next

[DragoonStorm1]

1 minute ago, CrimsonBladeZeta said:

I mean.... they cannot stack the set bonus with their own combo counter, which previously before the blood rush fix they can. And no patch note saying this is a nerf. 

yes its an unmentioned stealth patch (prolly unintended mechanic) thing

but im glad it doesnt stack with their own combo counter because right now, their own combo counter hardly builds up at all.
 

[CrimsonBladeZeta]

Just now, Vicidomini said:

Right now you are only focusing on one item. Their job is not simply this one item. No one is going to be hired just to only look at stat sticks. There is no one who has time to take care of every single little system in Warframe. So, yeah, I'm fairly certain that they don't have time to take in every single detail regarding this problem. This little thing is not worth losing focus on their current projects. 

It's kinda like, why do people high up in management get secretaries? It's not that they can't do the work, it's that they don't have time to do the work. They are definitely working on other projects, and this is just a such a band-aid patch suggestion because of that.

In addition, being good at the game does not mean equate being good at developing and maintaining the game.

If you were a CEO at a company, and someone said there was this problem with rent or something. You wouldn't consider that the place had so and so problems, you would just throw money to fix it. However, the employees would see this or that wrong causing the rent to be high. You as the CEO has literally no time to figure out those little problems. At least in our case, the CEO goes to gather information about the problems. 

TLDR: Yes, compared to us thousands of users, they definitely don't have as much time on their hands to understand all the details of this problem.

You know what if they even play their game they will know when they design this item this will happen, but they didn't. 

[nslay]

1 hour ago, Malziel said:

While a part of me is a bit sad to see this hilarious buff get shot down, I can at least understand it. With this said, however, will DE be addressing the fact that Riven Mods on stat sticks for Khora / Atlas / Gara still give their massively increased bonuses to Warframe Abilities? I feel like that has been a much larger and more noxious issue than the Xoris' hilarious fun Big Number Effect.

You know what... just to satisfy everyone, I would be entirely happy if Rivens didn't apply to Khora's Whipclaw (honestly, it won't matter). I also encourage DE to fix Accumulating Whipclaw bugs where the Accumulating Whipclaw stacks aren't actually reset (and there are apparently several triggers... like nullifier bubbles and going through ESO/SO conduits). Because there is no way to explain the damage values you see in spectacular Khora videos when Whipclaw's template weapon is a 300 base damage weapon with 25% crit chance, 2x crit damage and 20% status chance. There's no way to take those weapon stats to, say, 80 million damage unless there's a bug (in this case, in Accumulating Whipclaw).

• Remove Rivens from stat sticks.
• Fix Accumulating Whipclaw

Then I trust that the community will have no reason to complain about frames like Khora even though they will largely still perform just as well as they do now. For me, I only care about 8 zones of ESO. I already do 8 zones of ESO without a juicy Riven weapon (I use RDD which has bad disposition!).

[Ferbsol]

hace 1 hora, --Raid-Master-Qued dijo:

They are nerfing an OP interaction. Why people hate nerfs?

It wasnt op, naramon + jaw sword riven is better this is an extremelly lame nerf

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Why not just go back to how it originally worked then, and have the Gladiator set work off of the Exalted weapons combo? Why was that even changed in the first place?

That way you can use whatever melee weapon you want, Xoris or otherwise.

honestly I dont see why exalteds just dont get same mods all melees can use and or have a no melee equipped mode like garuda has 

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, GREF_TM said:

Alright, we nerf xoris. But guess what? Whipclaw still outdamages saryn, just like it did before xoris. How did nerfing xoris solved the problem, again?

It solves the problem of abnormally high usage by making people go back to their weapons instead of flocking to the Xoris as if it was the only weapon in the game because of an extremely convenient buff that doesn't take away Zenurik from you.

[(NSW)Takami]

De, sometimes you take the fun out of things...

[TheLordOmega2]

Well this sounds stupid, i don't use the Xoris much because i don't like the glaive stances, but i do have a statstick for abilities that i love dearly, i do see the convenience, but that's about it, and you're trading convenience on some abilities with... not being able to use a good melee weapon. The exalted weapon thing sounds more like a glitch than anything.

 

But this is a good opportunity to remind DE that exalted weapons have been missing on 10 mod points since they stopped using statsticks forever ago, as their built-in stances don't bring any.

[Ferbsol]

hace 2 horas, Thanathros dijo:

... I never got why people complain about nerfing certain combinations that would be a "must have" to play. 

Seems fair to me.

Is not a must jaw sword + naramon is better

[-SicMundusCreatusEst-]

2 hours ago, --Raid-Master-Qued said:

They are nerfing an OP interaction. Why people hate nerfs?

Because they are pointless in a ove game maybe? Just saying.

[CrimsonBladeZeta]

Just now, TheLordOmega2 said:

Well this sounds stupid, i don't use the Xoris much because i don't like the glaive stances, but i do have a statstick for abilities that i love dearly, i do see the convenience, but that's about it, and you're trading convenience on some abilities with... not being able to use a good melee weapon. The exalted weapon thing sounds more like a glitch than anything.

 

But this is a good opportunity to remind DE that exalted weapons have been missing on 10 mod points since they stopped using statsticks forever ago, as their built-in stances don't bring any.

Trust me, DE believes that exalted melee weapons are doing extremely high damage, as Megan says. So they might only nerf it.

[kerespup]

The people calling DE bad devs because of the Xoris nerf really have no idea how balancing a game works and are far too entitled to their own one trick pony builds.

A lot of games do balancing, Warframe hardly gets to do that because of community crybabies.

If this were any other company or game, you'd have balancing patches that make every meta user cry. Take a look at games like League of Legends, or heck even MMOs. They always do balance patches to promote variety and not force people to stick to one build for years.

It's because of players like these why Warframe gameplay can become so stale with everyone using the same damn builds over and over again.

If this was any other game, they'd disable the character and disable the item immediately until the hotfix comes out. Just be glad you got to experience and play it.

The only reason certain people are pissed is because they're too reliant on gamebreaking bugs and exploits for their "fun".

Warframe became stale during the time that certain metas dominated.

1. Mirage with Simulor

2. Catchmoon

3. Kuva Bramma

Get over it already, balancing is a necessary thing in a game. Not balancing anything just makes the game stale and die faster.

[WarcraftOrcsAreAliens]

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

 we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole. 

TL;DR: DE's design focuses more on numbers than actual design, and they only care about player choice if it makes content easier, and dont give a dime if your choices are limited for content to be playable at all.

 

That is so rich to read. As if DE cared about player choice being restricted. Is that why only a handful of frames can do late game content? Is that why when steel path comes out, primaries and secondaries are gonna be forgotten because of how poor they scale because, apparently, DE thinks "a greater challenge" just means tweaking numbers as opposed to designing challenging experiences. 

The only time DE steps in because of "player choice being restricted" is when the undisputed best makes content easy. It's apparently totally fine when choices are thrown out the window for the game to be playable at all. 

Just look at when frames are nerfed or """reworked""": Ember (farmed lower level content too fast), Volt (Did Eidolons too well), Limbo (Farmed Murex too well), Xoris (Does melee too well), Wukong (Survived too well), Mag (farmed interception too well). 

But is anything going to be done to adress how only three or four frames even have a chance to compete on the index? Is anything gonna be done when steel path comes out and you cant play frames that dont have straight up invulnerability or stupid amounts of armor (or limbo)? Of course not, because you dont care. You only care if it helps players do well, but nothing will ever be done about when players dont have a choice if they want content t obe remotely playable.

And before anyone says "oh but Steel path is hard on purpose", that's entirely irrelevant because DE said it is NOT endgame, and if it is NOT endgame content, then there shouldnt be a need for minmaxing to play effectively (or in this case, play at all)

I'm not saying to make hard content easier, i'm saying to make the aproach to challenging design better. The best difficult content is the one players feel good after going through it, instead of "thank god it's over". Here's examples:

-The Teralyst feels good to fight, Hydrolyst and Gantulist dont because you either do them easily or you cant do at all, since at the end its just the teralyst but with bigger numbers

-Thumpers are probably the apex of failed design. They dont feel good to fight, they're just a drag.

-The Ropalolyst is an example of good design. Even if a bit repetitive, you're doing more than just shooting or shooting one spot, you put minimal thought into fighting it, the Scream might be a bit uninteractive

-The Index is another bad design. It doesn't get harder, it just gets slower and slower and enemies hit harder and harder. That's it. You'd think there'd be more to it, like Nef throwing modifiers into the mix to disrupt you.

-Disruption is good design, you get new modifiers that can make the mission easier or harder, and you have to adapt to it (even if all of them are minor, my point still stands), and you dont worry about getting to a point where "oops, the enemies scaled too hard and one shot the objective with nothing we could do about it", you need to worry about dealing with the bomber and that can be aproached in numerous, if somewhat limited, ways.

[Opyt]

2 hours ago, --Raid-Master-Qued said:

They are nerfing an OP interaction. Why people hate nerfs?

Because we've been watching too much YouTube and do not like the direction DE is going with bulletsponge mode.