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Just allow Blood Rush/Weeping Wounds on exalted weapons


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Right now most exalted melee kind of suck. They're not bad, but because they can't use combo count mods they're really weak compared to regular weapons that don't require abilities or energy.

Take Valkyr's claws - they do a lot of damage on the first hit, but the base Venka can outperform (even before a riven) with Blood Rush and a little combo (and we can build that combo really fast).

That sucks.

The only way around it is to put the Gladiator Set on a regular melee with lots of combo duration, then switch the exalted weapon off every now and then to keep the combo up, but this is horribly clunky game play.

Exalted weapons are supposed to be some of the most powerful in the game, and they're never going to get rivens, just let them equip combo builder mods already!

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

but this is horribly clunky game play.

Man, if only there were some way the Exalted weapons could build their own combo and Gladiator buffs instead of relying on the combo of a completely irrelevant weapon. To me that sounds like a fantastic idea, and if it ever came about that such a mechanic were in the game and was stealthily removed several updates ago, well I might be insufferably bitter about that.

But thank goodness that hasn't happened, amirite? Haha ha ha...

But yeah, agreed, buff them all. I've reached a point where I'm so fed up with DE doing absolutely nothing about the Iron Staff that I just can't be bothered to worry about it anymore.

Edited by DeMonkey
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They need to either bring all exalteds to the levels of augmented Serene Storm so they dont need BR/WW or the glad mod work around, or nerf Serene Storm, let it build combo on waves and at the same time allow exalteds to slot and benefit from blood rush and weeping wounds.

The gap between Baruuk and the other exalted melees is just insane atm.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Right now most exalted melee kind of suck. They're not bad, but because they can't use combo count mods they're really weak compared to regular weapons that don't require abilities or energy.

This is only a temporary solution, since exalted weapons in their current form will always compete with corresponding weapon types. With time our arsenal power creeps and exalted weapons will be left behind. Again. And will require a change. Again. And again.

Instead transform exalted weapons into exalted state, which provides benefits to certain playstyles, while using regular equipment.

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Exaltelted weapons doesnt supposed to be combo builds at all. If most of them is short time active and spent energy.

Only what exalted weapons need is:

- Bigger base damage

- bigger change to do crits and stats

 

Like garudas exalted weapon and how it gain buff.

 

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15 hours ago, ShortCat said:

This is only a temporary solution, since exalted weapons in their current form will always compete with corresponding weapon types. With time our arsenal power creeps and exalted weapons will be left behind. Again. And will require a change. Again. And again

Yes, but that's ongoing, always. There's no frame that can be relevant and stays always relevant - CC frames used to be essential, now Nyx is useless, Loki used to be game breaking good, now he's just OK.

Yes, exalted weapons will have to change again and again, just like abilities.

Allowing for mods is part of what gets us out of that - mods are what gets your base weapons to scale.

15 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Instead transform exalted weapons into exalted state, which provides benefits to certain playstyles, while using regular equipment.

I'm not a fan of this, buff any weapon is a grand idea, but it's also the only point to Chroma and a big part of Mirage. If Mesa can supercharge any pistol, Khora any whip, Atlas/Baruuk any fists, Ivara any bow etc you lose some of the frames' personality, but you also create a testing nightmare for DE with any new weapon. Like they could add a new weapon (say Atterax Wraith) and suddenly Khora is way OP unless they nerf Khora or nerf the weapon into MR fodder.

12 hours ago, (XB1)Erkwounder said:

Only what exalted weapons need is:

- Bigger base damage

- bigger change to do crits and stats

Which is great and all, but is never going to be enough. 

For instance, you can get Valkyr from Alad V on Jupiter, usually around MR5ish. At that point her claws are pretty devastating without any buff. For most of the star chart she's fine. Then we get to sorties and her claws begin to fall off. Arbitrations and endless modes she's struggling and by Steel Path her 4 is useless for damage, you're just going to use a scaling combo weapon with Warcry. Wukong's staff is in about the same place.

They aren't going to balance exalted weapons for scaling content, they shouldn't, but they need to allow us to mod for scaling content.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Allowing for mods is part of what gets us out of that - mods are what gets your base weapons to scale.

Equalizing modding is not a sustainable solution, since new releases will power creep exalted weapons at some point. Whether you like it or not, there will always be a conflict/competition between the two. I proposed something, which resolves this conflict and offers a long-term solution.

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'm not a fan of this, buff any weapon is a grand idea, but it's also the only point to Chroma and a big part of Mirage. If Mesa can supercharge any pistol, Khora any whip, Atlas/Baruuk any fists, Ivara any bow etc you lose some of the frames' personality, but you also create a testing nightmare for DE with any new weapon. Like they could add a new weapon (say Atterax Wraith) and suddenly Khora is way OP unless they nerf Khora or nerf the weapon into MR fodder.

+damage is not the only way to incorporate buffs. Also, assuming a faulty execution to make your point is not very convincing.

 

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1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Equalizing modding is not a sustainable solution

This is correct. There is NO sustainable solution. DE need to rebalance frames and exalted weapons constantly, there's no solution where that isn't the case.

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

new releases will power creep exalted weapons at some point

Yes, also true. Without power creep new weapons feel like disappointing MR fodder, with it old weapons need buffs to stay relevant. 

I don't disagree on the problem, I just don't think being able to make any weapon exalted is the solution.

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Also, assuming a faulty execution to make your point is not very convincing

I'm a software engineer, we always assume the worst case scenario and design for that. DE won't f up every time, but I don't think we can assume they'll never f up. There will be another Xoris some time (and as you say, it's not only +damage), DE clearly don't test for stat sticks (or even think about it really, as infinite combo duration was obvious) - do you really think they're going to test every possible exalted mode weapon?

It's a lot easier for them to, say, go add more damage or crit to Iron Staff once in a while, than it would be to test every staff with Wukong every time any of them change.

Which brings me back to the original point, as long as some of the most powerful mods are blocked from exalted weapons those weapons are going to be underpowered.

I mean, sure, exalted mode would fix that too, but it also seems like a much bigger change that DE is much less likely to make.

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Posted (edited)

 

20 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Please for the love of God, make Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds accessible on Exalted Melee. They drastically need it.

Questionable. Serene storm, for example, will casually reach 545% (?) CC with BR and 3x gladiator mods on deconstructor. That's tier 3 red crits with a 45% chance of tier 4 red crit (90% with avenger). And i highly doubt serene storm needs this, as it already wrecks anything and holds its own against pretty much every single normal melee in the game.

 

I'd argue that exalted melees don't need BR nor weeping. Just throwing these two mods in as a bandaid solution won't solve any real problems with them. Ever since that melee 2.9 patch, in which normal melees recieved big stat boosts but exalted didn't, they need a proper rebalancing, both base stats and actual usability. As it is now, only serene storm feels like an extremely powerful weapon worthy of being frame-locked, mostly because of augment and the fact that glad mods are bugged, while exalted blade is just a crap version of it in every way possible (and because of that, baruuk right now is a straight up better excal unless you want to meme with max range blind build IMO), and other two are so bad they're not worthy even of that title.

 

Honestly, desert wind just set a bar way, way too high, it's just perfect in every way possible, and while i agree that it should be the best because of baruuk's restraint mechanic, difference shouldn't be as drastic as it is now. That being said, don't see how it's even possible to make other exalted weapons to be even remotely comparable to current desert wind.

Edited by GREF_TM
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1 hour ago, GREF_TM said:

 

Questionable. Serene storm, for example, will casually reach 545% (?) CC with BR and 3x gladiator mods on deconstructor. That's tier 3 red crits with a 45% chance of tier 4 red crit (90% with avenger). And i highly doubt serene storm needs this, as it already wrecks anything and holds its own against pretty much every single normal melee in the game.

 

I'd argue that exalted melees don't need BR nor weeping. Just throwing these two mods in as a bandaid solution won't solve any real problems with them. Ever since that melee 2.9 patch, in which normal melees recieved big stat boosts but exalted didn't, they need a proper rebalancing, both base stats and actual usability. As it is now, only serene storm feels like an extremely powerful weapon worthy of being frame-locked, mostly because of augment and the fact that glad mods are bugged, while exalted blade is just a crap version of it in every way possible (and because of that, baruuk right now is a straight up better excal unless you want to meme with max range blind build IMO), and other two are so bad they're not worthy even of that title.

 

Honestly, desert wind just set a bar way, way too high, it's just perfect in every way possible, and while i agree that it should be the best because of baruuk's restraint mechanic, difference shouldn't be as drastic as it is now. That being said, don't see how it's even possible to make other exalted weapons to be even remotely comparable to current desert wind.

You said it yourself, Exalted Melees need rebalancing. The point of contention here is still a matter of making Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds equippable on Exalted Melee so that they can ideally match with normal melee modding. Rebalances to allow those mods to be used, as always (y’know, DE, via TESTING), should be reviewed as a per case basis for each Exalted Melee weapon.

Baruuk and Excalibur are the odd ones in the bunch, because their Exalted Melees are attuned toward ranged projectiles. And yet as Exalted Melees they are highly effective in their dps and damage numbers because of that and their respective augments. I wouldn’t be surprised if their power levels got reeled back a slight smidge, but I’m sure we all know when there’s no proper testing involved when rebalancing and reworking certain things in Warframe, they are labeled as heavy-handed nerfs.

Note: Bolds and Italics not directed at you, @GREF_TM, but at the repetitive situation we go through periodically with Warframe rebalances.

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10 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Questionable. Serene storm, for example, will casually reach 545% (?) CC with BR and 3x gladiator mods on deconstructor. That's tier 3 red crits with a 45% chance of tier 4 red crit (90% with avenger). And i highly doubt serene storm needs this, as it already wrecks anything and holds its own against pretty much every single normal melee in the game.

You worded this is the worst way possible. It's a guaranteed T5 crit with 45% chance at T6. With a 3.8x modded crit multi, that's 15x damage on the T5s, and 17.8x damage on the T6.

Serene Storm is fine because of the augment - its basically always does +75% damage and ignores 75% of the armor of the target, and it's got a good base crit skill. And if you actually melee, it'll hit twice.

But, compare it to Chromatic Blade - combined elements are impossible in it's base damage, so it'll require at least 1 mod slot allowing it to gain bonuses against either ferrite or alloy. And it can't do that while also leveraging viral at the same time, which Serene Storm can. Past that, there's massive difference in crit chance 15% vs 50%. The only reason EB isn't basically deleted from the game here is because it actually got the melee 3.0 stance damage modifiers, and none of the rest did. Which means you can stand still for triple damage.

Right now, Desert Wind, Hysteria, and Iron Staff are all using Power Strength as a replacement for both acolyte mods and stance damage modifiers. The 250 base damage all exlated melees deal used to be a massive lead, when Gram Prime dealt 180 damage and most weapons didn't even manage half that. Now we have Gram Prime at 300, Pangolin Prime at 248, etc. First and foremost, Desert Wind, and Hysteria need their neutral combos to deal an average of 300% damage. Iron Staff needs a complete stance rework. EB needs it's base crit buffed. Only after all this happens can you even begin to start looking at power strength scaling vs acolyte mods for parity - but since we're spending energy to summon and maintain these weapons, the strength scaling should likely just be the bonus that makes worth paying for them.

And on the stance note - Desert Wind and Hysteria should both become normal sparring stances, added to your inventory when you build the frames, like companon precepts. Same with Exalted Blade as a sword stance, and Primal Fury as a staff stance. Then they can be given proper stance capacity, and if you still don't like them, you'd be able to swap out the stances on the EWs themselves.

And Gaurda Talon's just not being treated in every way as a normal melee weapon is silly.

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2 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

First and foremost, Desert Wind, and Hysteria need their neutral combos to deal an average of 300% damage.

As i said before, desert wind doesn't need anything at all, stance multipliers included, as it already performs extremely well.

2 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

EB needs it's base crit buffed.

EB needs way more than that. Lower damage output without blind is actually only its second problem when you compare it with desert wind, the first one is it's overall usability. Energy waves produced by EB  travel very slowly (15 m/s, you can even outrun them) and have very small hitboxes (cannot consistently cover even a 2m wide area), while desert wind energy waves are hitscan/instant (or at least extremely fast, something like 150+ m/s, because even if there is a travel time on them, i can't see it) and cover at least 9m wide area. These two combined make desert wind both feel way better to play and be more effective at cleaning crowds in a crowd shooter. Honestly, if EB got at least similar waves, i'd be totally fine with it having only 15% crit chance.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

EB needs way more than that. Lower damage output without blind is actually only its second problem when you compare it with desert wind, the first one is it's overall usability. Energy waves produced by EB  travel very slowly (15 m/s, you can even outrun them) and have very small hitboxes (cannot consistently cover even a 2m wide area), while desert wind energy waves are hitscan/instant (or at least extremely fast, something like 150+ m/s, because even if there is a travel time on them, i can't see it) and cover at least 9m wide area. These two combined make desert wind both feel way better to play and be more effective at cleaning crowds in a crowd shooter. Honestly, if EB got at least similar waves, i'd be totally fine with it having only 15% crit chance.

At 200%+ power strength, EB is very good as a light attack based melee weapon as long as you're actually striking with the blade, and not just standing around going woosh woosh woosh. Energy waves also strike the primary target struck by the blade. My current build is a 199% power strength excal, and EB is modded with Primed Pressure Point, Sac Steel, Primed Fever Strike, North Wind, Molten Impact, Organ Shatter, Primed Fury, and either CO or Primed Reach depending on content. We'll go with Reach for this example though. I use heat for my element, and run Steel Charge as my aura, and of course then 10% from Excal's passive. So that gives us 250*(1+(1.65+.60+.10))*1.99*(1+(1.65+.90+.90))=7416.48 base damage. We have 48% crit, and 3.8x crit multiplier, so we end up with an average hit of 17,384.23. 5916.52 of that base damage is viral, giving us ~80% chance to proc viral on the first hit, so a melee range neutral combo swing will on average deal 17,384.23+(17384.23*1.8)*3=146,027.53 average damage. And that's before type modifiers.

Now yes, compared to Serene Storm which will allows the same double hit affect. as well as significantly higher base crit and a superior augment, EB looks bad. But compared to light attack based builds of normal melee weapons, it's good as long as you have the power strength to back it up. Now, if you're just holding forward and mashing melee, it's going to drop a hell of a lot in effectiveness. So I suppose it depends on whether you look at it as a sword, or as a gun replacement.

Note: I didn't use Sac Pressure in calcs because Umbra is in the trash bin as far as I'm concerned until they do some focused bug fixing on his passive. I use normal excal, with a redirection/adaptation based build, with Magus Elevate instead of bothering trying to maintain a large health pool. Shields synergize really well with blind, the lack of in kit heals hurts playing health based builds. And I use primed fury over berserker because I prefer a totally consistent swing speed on EB.

Edited by nooneyouknow13
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51 minutes ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Now yes, compared to Serene Storm which will allows the same double hit affect.

You don't even need to hit with actual melee with serene storm. You use one block combo and mofos in a big 9m+ area just die. Even if they are 15-20 meters away from you. Even if they are all lvl ~150 cgunners/cbombards. Maybe one extra hit will be needed, but that's about it. Even if you buff its damage/crit, exalted blade just can't compete with that in terms of overall usability/efficiency.

 

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Just now, GREF_TM said:

You don't even need to hit with actual melee with serene storm. You use one block combo and mofos in a big 9m+ area just die. Even if they are 15-20 meters away from you. Even if they are all lvl ~150 cgunners/cbombards. Maybe one extra hit will be needed, but that's about it. Even if you buff its damage/crit, exalted blade just can't compete with that in terms of overall usability/efficiency.

 

I've already acknowledged Serene Storm is better. The point of comparison was never another exalted weapon, but normal melee weapons. Serene Storm should actually be better than EB because it's resource costs more time to gain and manage.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Serene Storm should actually be better than EB because it's resource costs more time to gain and manage.

Earlier i've stated already in this thread that i agree it should be better, but not to the point where it's a clear winner by a large margin, and as a result kills EB (and by extension, excalibur as a frame) as a viable alternative.

 

Also, in more general content (up to like lvl120, dunno), it feels easier to me to simply ignore EB and just build for a max range blind instead, using something like stropha on heavy attack build (combo burst should work too) as a damage option. Even without 8x from blind, it deals well enough with groups for me to consider it an easier, viable alternative for EB. With fury active it kills lvl150 gunners in like 2-3 shots on an unoptimized build with viral only and life strike, so if i tweak this build to shield gating survivability approach and cut life strike, it should 2-shot those lvl150 heavies, on top of being a more convinient weapon to use in general. And if there comes a point where you're thinking about stuff like that (repacing your signature weapon with a regular melee with no energy cost), you know there's something wrong with it.

Edited by GREF_TM
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