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Why I stopped spending money in this game


Lazframe

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I will be brief here, if DE is looking for answers on why part of their playerbase has lost faith in them, here is what this post is for.

The game feels unrewarding

You have Eidolons, a place where to get rewards you are actually forced to learn and practice a gamemode and where you can't just press 4 and turn off your brain. What does DE do? They introduce Scarlet Spear, killing the whole Arcanes market in a single event - and with that an entire gamemode. Who needs to do Eidolons when you can just park your ship and afk a mission countless times? Hell yeah, this is what we endorse.

Kuva Liches. The Lich system had the potential to become what we always seek as "endgame", yet it remains nothing else but Mastery Rank locked behind braindead RNG grind. Imagine wasting a system like that.

Railjack. If Railjack had actual rewards I would be playing it all day over and over. Yet there are no incentives to play a Railjack mission after you maxed your gear and got all the things you needed. Also, why was there such a low effort in creating rewards that would be useful even outside of Railjack itself? There are like two intrinsics that are useful outside of railjack and nothing else. Like, really.

Ignoring feedback

Now, to be fair, the new Public Test Cluster is a great addition towards solving this problem and the impression is that so far it's working great. What I mean by ignoring feedback however is mostly tied to the problems I listed above. There are hundreds of people giving ideas on easy solutions for the lack of replayability of Warframe, yet I don't understand what's so difficult to implement any of that or any new rewards worth sinking our time into. Instead: hey you completed the star chart again in hard mode? here's a statue and an emote for you. Enjoy.

The nerf mentality

There are two kind of nerfs. The day they changed arcanes I was immediately triggered as not only did they increase the amounts you needed for a max rank, but they also nerfed some - energize as an example. However I consider that to be a brave and great change overall. Why? Because they promoted diversity and change for the less popular ones while not butchering the "meta" ones to the ground. The shotgun change also falls into the same category, where many more weapons became viable while the meta didn't get slaughtered to the ground.

I think the main goal of a nerf in any game should be that, to promote diversity. Instead it seems that every time an hotfix drops they just nerf for the sake of nerfing. I haven't used the Xoris, but I can understand the frustration of those who do for the recent nerf. Brozime explained it in depth in a recent video. My take ks that Xoris was actually there to give diversity, in a world where Jaw Sword/Skana and all the others rule - yet DE butchered it after a couple of weeks.

Rivens, the slot machines that everyone is okay with

Do you remember that scene in the Warframe Documentary on Youtube where Sheldon talks about how they removed a highly addictive system for Kubrows and Kavats? "We created a slot machine" - and they removed it.

Well, give a warm welcome to Riven mods! The peak of slot machines. Imagine a system where in order to get a unique enhancement for a weapon your like you have two options: either go in a mission afk pressing one ability for one hour - with a mandatory resource booster equipped - then go back to orbiter and you'll have 4 attempts at rolling an RNG roulette where most of the outcomes are useless stats. The other option is emtping your wallet. Congratulations.

Yet, every time anyone ever tries to bring the subject up, the only "argument" - if you can say so - is "Well, you don't have to get rivens. Rivens aren't mandatory. My x weapon is good even without a riven." Apparently if something is in a bad and laughable state, it's better to leave it as is, since we got so used to content being left untouched for years in this game - what's the point of offering views to fix them, am I rigth fellas?

 

tl;dr I genuinely hope something is in the pipe for Tennocon, because I can honestly feel the frustration of the players in the chit-chat and conversations everyday. This game is being left to die out of negligence, and if it wasn't for the clans and communities coming up with ideas to keep the the engine rolling I don't know where it would be

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7 minutes ago, SeRialPiXel said:

Ignoring feedback

Now, to be fair, the new Public Test Cluster is a great addition towards solving this problem and the impression is that so far it's working great. What I mean by ignoring feedback however is mostly tied to the problems I listed above. There are hundreds of people giving ideas on easy solutions for the lack of replayability of Warframe, yet I don't understand what's so difficult to implement any of that or any new rewards worth sinking our time into. Instead: hey you completed the star chart again in hard mode? here's a statue and an emote for you. Enjoy.

The nerf mentality

There are two kind of nerfs. The day they changed arcanes I was immediately triggered as not only did they increase the amounts you needed for a max rank, but they also nerfed some - energize as an example. However I consider that to be a brave and great change overall. Why? Because they promoted diversity and change for the less popular ones while not butchering the "meta" ones to the ground. The shotgun change also falls into the same category, where many more weapons became viable while the meta didn't get slaughtered to the ground.

I think the main goal of a nerf in any game should be that, to promote diversity. Instead it seems that every time an hotfix drops they just nerf for the sake of nerfing. I haven't used the Xoris, but I can understand the frustration of those who do for the recent nerf. Brozime explained it in depth in a recent video. My take ks that Xoris was actually there to give diversity, in a world where Jaw Sword/Skana and all the others rule - yet DE butchered it after a couple of weeks.

And here we have a problem.

The things DE would need to do in order to even begin to start implementing more diversity would be utterly reviled by the community. Namely, doing things like nerfing some of the most common and popular strategies into the ground, because the reason those strategies are common and popular is that they're game-breakingly powerful, to the point where many of the ideas people have would be dead on arrival due to them. Namely - better AI. I'm sorry, but Limbo exists - there is no winning move short of a Nullifier for AI to make against Limbo. And that's not even considering nuke abilities.

Obviously, people would be, and have been, utterly furious at changes like these.

So DE is stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

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I stopped on the Eidolon argument, they are as bad as the rest, shoot big weakpoints with big meta guns since only a view work and use Chroma at best, what challange.

Some tihngs i do agree but yes, challange will never happen due how the game just turns in circles, mechancis and strategy are dead, even CC and Support are, all gamemodes we get so far are ones where damage is more important.

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I stopped mostly because I had no reason to spend money. I can get enough plat with casual trading for "deluxe" skins and that is usually the one thing I buy besides maybe more slots if needed.

if you have some weird "I am not being rewarded for putting effort into the game" hangups... well... that's still a valid reason. good for you.

 

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26 minutes ago, SeRialPiXel said:

I will be brief here, if DE is looking for answers on why part of their playerbase has lost faith in them, here is what this post is for.

The game feels unrewarding

You have Eidolons, a place where to get rewards you are actually forced to learn and practice a gamemode and where you can't just press 4 and turn off your brain. What does DE do? They introduce Scarlet Spear, killing the whole Arcanes market in a single event - and with that an entire gamemode. Who needs to do Eidolons when you can just park your ship and afk a mission countless times? Hell yeah, this is what we endorse.

Kuva Liches. The Lich system had the potential to become what we always seek as "endgame", yet it remains nothing else but Mastery Rank locked behind braindead RNG grind. Imagine wasting a system like that.

Railjack. If Railjack had actual rewards I would be playing it all day over and over. Yet there are no incentives to play a Railjack mission after you maxed your gear and got all the things you needed. Also, why was there such a low effort in creating rewards that would be useful even outside of Railjack itself? There are like two intrinsics that are useful outside of railjack and nothing else. Like, really.

Ignoring feedback

Now, to be fair, the new Public Test Cluster is a great addition towards solving this problem and the impression is that so far it's working great. What I mean by ignoring feedback however is mostly tied to the problems I listed above. There are hundreds of people giving ideas on easy solutions for the lack of replayability of Warframe, yet I don't understand what's so difficult to implement any of that or any new rewards worth sinking our time into. Instead: hey you completed the star chart again in hard mode? here's a statue and an emote for you. Enjoy.

The nerf mentality

There are two kind of nerfs. The day they changed arcanes I was immediately triggered as not only did they increase the amounts you needed for a max rank, but they also nerfed some - energize as an example. However I consider that to be a brave and great change overall. Why? Because they promoted diversity and change for the less popular ones while not butchering the "meta" ones to the ground. The shotgun change also falls into the same category, where many more weapons became viable while the meta didn't get slaughtered to the ground.

I think the main goal of a nerf in any game should be that, to promote diversity. Instead it seems that every time an hotfix drops they just nerf for the sake of nerfing. I haven't used the Xoris, but I can understand the frustration of those who do for the recent nerf. Brozime explained it in depth in a recent video. My take ks that Xoris was actually there to give diversity, in a world where Jaw Sword/Skana and all the others rule - yet DE butchered it after a couple of weeks.

Rivens, the slot machines that everyone is okay with

Do you remember that scene in the Warframe Documentary on Youtube where Sheldon talks about how they removed a highly addictive system for Kubrows and Kavats? "We created a slot machine" - and they removed it.

Well, give a warm welcome to Riven mods! The peak of slot machines. Imagine a system where in order to get a unique enhancement for a weapon your like you have two options: either go in a mission afk pressing one ability for one hour - with a mandatory resource booster equipped - then go back to orbiter and you'll have 4 attempts at rolling an RNG roulette where most of the outcomes are useless stats. The other option is emtping your wallet. Congratulations.

Yet, every time anyone ever tries to bring the subject up, the only "argument" - if you can say so - is "Well, you don't have to get rivens. Rivens aren't mandatory. My x weapon is good even without a riven." Apparently if something is in a bad and laughable state, it's better to leave it as is, since we got so used to content being left untouched for years in this game - what's the point of offering views to fix them, am I rigth fellas?

 

tl;dr I genuinely hope something is in the pipe for Tennocon, because I can honestly feel the frustration of the players in the chit-chat and conversations everyday. This game is being left to die out of negligence, and if it wasn't for the clans and communities coming up with ideas to keep the the engine rolling I don't know where it would be

Hey mate, fair enough...
But let me disavow you of some things...
1) The game feels as rewarding now as it felt when you were paying... More likely than not, you either have "Girlfriend Syndrome" or you're just burnt out. (Girlfriend Syndrome is that thing when you like an idealized version of something, not what that thing, is and keep expecting it to change into the idealized thing).
Sure it would be an incredibly better game if they rethink their rewards system. Like by miles. And if they stop thinking RNG is the solution for everything. But this is not something that changed. So its weird that you list it as a reason to change.

2) That's Incredibly unfair. Out of all the Developers i've engaged with, DE is by far, like Light Years, the company that takes in and acts on player feedback. Might not be YOUR feedback. But they do!

3) This i have to agree... They do seem to be one-track in terms of readjustments, and that's Nerfs. Maybe they need fresh minds in there or something... I don't know but both in that and the rewards, they seem stuck in the past with no real change since 2013. And they were not being very progressive in their approach then either, in fact their reward structure and the grind is more 2005 than 2010.

The Xoris change thing is a good example of them using nerfs to solve a problem that is systemic, using exceptions instead of fixing the underlying problem.

5) I don't think most people like Rivens. Sadly they ARE a necessary evil, because sometimes the game requires more power than you can get with base mods.
That said they could use a in-depth revision of the whole system, and the market is a stain on the game.

But you're also conflating the Riven RNG with the old Kubrow Slot-machine. There's a big difference. You're not spending platinum to roll the roulette. So even though its RNG, its not the same kind of slot machine as previously, since you're not paying real money for it. That's the big issue with that RNG, because just about everything in Warframe is a slot-machine, if you put it like that, since they tend to abuse RNG as a way to inflate play-times.

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33 minutes ago, SeRialPiXel said:

I will be brief here, if DE is looking for answers on why part of their playerbase has lost faith in them, here is what this post is for.

You are a brave soul for making this post. I made a similar one a little less than a year ago and the forum posters were not happy about it. 

I feel the same way, but for different reasons [for me, it's the lack of challenge, and lack of work on PvP]. I've felt for a while that DE no longer caters to the type of player that I am, which is understandable since I'm not the most common type of player.

They are making the correct business decisions, but the correct business decisions are not the ones we like as players. In a perfect world, there would be challenging content that feels rewarding and keeps players around. This is hard to make because of a wide variety of skill and gear among the playerbase. It's much easier to just make something super easy but tedious, with attached RNG grind. This is content everybody can play, and it keeps players around. It's fast and cheap to make, and is clearly successful. For a business, I can totally understand sticking with this winning formula. For a game developer, I'm sure they're not happy about this situation either.

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Everything becomes easier to get overtime and SS was already the second time Arcanes were made easier to get (cough Trials cough). Liches are already rewarding on several levels, none of which is invalidated because of rng and Railjack is still openly unfinished.

Just because DE hasn't taken your feedback or the exact feedback you agree with doesn't mean they don't take any. Nearly every change that has been made to Liches and Railjack have been based on feedback. Even Nightwave is in the same boat and that system exists solely because of player feedback.

The only nerf mentality DE has is being too afraid to make nerfs. While the ones they have made have all added diversity to the game by dealing with overpowered options that crowded out other options.

And Rivens don't give you a payout by directly giving DE money unlike the Kubrow incident. Players set the "value" on Rivens, not DE. As well they're such a hotbed of debate that any change to them is going to upset players far more than any other change can, good luck making major changes in that setting.

 

Ultimately this game has a very diverse community and as has always been the case there are going to be parts of it that get neglected and ignored over other parts. Today one part of it is upset, tomorrow a different one will be, and so on so forth as has always been the case.

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5 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Hey mate, fair enough...
But let me disavow you of some things...
1) The game feels as rewarding now as it felt when you were paying... More likely than not, you either have "Girlfriend Syndrome" or you're just burnt out. (Girlfriend Syndrome is that thing when you like an idealized version of something, not what that thing, is and keep expecting it to change into the idealized thing).
Sure it would be an incredibly better game if they rethink their rewards system. Like by miles. And if they stop thinking RNG is the solution for everything. But this is not something that changed. So its weird that you list it as a reason to change.

Depends on what you consider "rewarding" to mean.  We've still got plenty of useless drop amounts for end game mission rewards as an example.  I think the point they mean though is in terms of a veteran player.  You can argue for someone whos not made it to end game that you can make meaningful and some what consistent progress/power gains when you invest time into the game.  However for many of us who have most things in the game new content rarely brings anything meaningful for us.  And it feels worse when mister MR8 player and MR20 player effectively complete content in the same pace despite the MR20 player likely having better and more optimized setups.  To put it simply vet players time investment isn't respected and has never really been respected.  Hence the "non rewarding" feeling.

5 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

5) I don't think most people like Rivens. Sadly they ARE a necessary evil, because sometimes the game requires more power than you can get with base mods.
That said they could use a in-depth revision of the whole system, and the market is a stain on the game.

But you're also conflating the Riven RNG with the old Kubrow Slot-machine. There's a big difference. You're not spending platinum to roll the roulette. So even though its RNG, its not the same kind of slot machine as previously, since you're not paying real money for it. That's the big issue with that RNG, because just about everything in Warframe is a slot-machine, if you put it like that, since they tend to abuse RNG as a way to inflate play-times.

Rivens are not required to complete any content DE has ever balanced around.  They offer convenience for modding which allows you to make some nutty min maxed builds.  Xoris situation is a pretty good example of the power that rivens can potentially bring to builds.  I don't believe Rivens were ever meant to be a staple solution and more of an afterthought for content.  DE needs to overhaul the system to make it less RNG favored.

There isn't a difference.  Someone is spending money on that riven because rivens can be traded.  Just because the initial owner of a riven isn't spending money to own it doesn't mean it's not comparable.  Literally all they have to do to make Rivens immediately far less of a problem is if they simply made them non tradable.  But I doubt that will ever happen because it's a far more frequent influx of cash for them compared to other things since it's a direct gameplay advantage people can get.

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1 hour ago, SeRialPiXel said:

I think the main goal of a nerf in any game should be that, to promote diversity. Instead it seems that every time an hotfix drops they just nerf for the sake of nerfing. I haven't used the Xoris, but I can understand the frustration of those who do for the recent nerf. Brozime explained it in depth in a recent video. My take ks that Xoris was actually there to give diversity, in a world where Jaw Sword/Skana and all the others rule - yet DE butchered it after a couple of weeks.

The diversity is still there though since Xoris by itself is a unique weapon that actually allows for a different type of regular melee build. While it may not perform as well as a weapon that might need naramon to be 100% pimped out, it still doesnt fall far behind and lets you pick completely different focus choices while still maintaining a full combo build (and letting you dump all combo duration mods). This leading to good use in builds that may rely on Zenurik, or some other focus school of choice, and allow for other aura choice if you used swift momentum, or free up a mod slot on Xoris that was used for body count or drifting contact.

The change will actually have little impact on the pseudo-exalted weapons since they add to the combo counter on their own with each hit. It will however remove the absurdity of how it interacted with gladiator mods and true exalted weapons that do no build combo on wave hits (baruuk and excal).

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Depends on what you consider "rewarding" to mean.  We've still got plenty of useless drop amounts for end game mission rewards as an example.  I think the point they mean though is in terms of a veteran player.  You can argue for someone whos not made it to end game that you can make meaningful and some what consistent progress/power gains when you invest time into the game.  However for many of us who have most things in the game new content rarely brings anything meaningful for us.  And it feels worse when mister MR8 player and MR20 player effectively complete content in the same pace despite the MR20 player likely having better and more optimized setups.  To put it simply vet players time investment isn't respected and has never really been respected.  Hence the "non rewarding" feeling.

Then, that falls into the burn-out category. Its not the game that's different, its his perception that changed. All of his critics tell a tale of someone that placed high hopes in content and the content failed to meet his hopes.
I've got just about everything you can get in the game, bar a couple of Primes from the last releases that i've just not had luck with RNG. Protea (again RNG, not lack of trying), a few modular stuff i just didn't feel making yet, and some Syndicate stuff. And i still play the game daily, because my expectations didn't change, its still the same game, and i still enjoy playing it the same. Because i manage my game time and my expectations as to not burn myself out (because i got ~80% of the available content in my first 6 months of playing the game and then stopped playing for a year and change, so i learned my lesson).

I don't get your last sentence about pace? Don't like doing missions with newbies? Ok, don't... That's not on the developers. I often go out of my way and spend hours helping newbies grind for Rhino, and other Warframes, because hey, it feels nice to help out.

1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Rivens are not required to complete any content DE has ever balanced around.  They offer convenience for modding which allows you to make some nutty min maxed builds.  Xoris situation is a pretty good example of the power that rivens can potentially bring to builds.  I don't believe Rivens were ever meant to be a staple solution and more of an afterthought for content.  DE needs to overhaul the system to make it less RNG favored.

No, Rivens aren't required to do any content, no. What Rivens do is give players MORE CHOICE to do the higher level stuff without having to use the top 2-3 weapons in the game.
Xoris' situation has nothing to do with Rivens... Its all to do with it not losing combo counter... It doesn't need Rivens for that.
 And yeah, i agree Rivens are incredibly flawed, but its the solution they have for a lot of problems, especially how to make all the hundreds of weapons they have still feel unique, and still be marginally useful.

1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

There isn't a difference.  Someone is spending money on that riven because rivens can be traded.  Just because the initial owner of a riven isn't spending money to own it doesn't mean it's not comparable.  Literally all they have to do to make Rivens immediately far less of a problem is if they simply made them non tradable.  But I doubt that will ever happen because it's a far more frequent influx of cash for them compared to other things since it's a direct gameplay advantage people can get.

There is. You don't see it... Because, you know, its fun to dislike Rivens...
Making Rivens untradable, would mean its almost impossible to get Rivens for the weapons you like, and honestly, i've bought and sold like 5 Rivens all my life...
And you think Rivens are the cash influx they need? Dude... Have you seen Prime Access prices?

 

 

 

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i stopped buying plat the moment Tecend did buy warframe

DE don't want to fix S#&$ because it is a waste of time and money, it is better to launch content over content and abandon it after 6/10 months than fix one game mode

how don't remember gvg/raids ?

RJ is the only fun mode i play for no too bad the reward sucks
 

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Ok. Unpopular opinion but here goes anyway. 

Eidolons ARE a great addition to the game. Killing the arcane market is not justification for saying a mechanic, or activity, is bad. Youre using two separate potential discussions to justify some salt, supported by a third discussion. To clarify, boss mechanic vs reward mechanic divided by gear viability. 

Eidolons arent terrible by any means. There one of the better fights in game, potentially. The fact that the playerbase has run them hundreds of times in chore-mode with thirsty-for-plat motivations has NOTHING to do with the fact of wether its a good fight or not. That said, yeah.. for anyone who was here for scarlet spear theyre mostly useless now. The arcane prices have been regulated by that a bit which is imho fine and dandy. And, yes, limiting viable gear in such a big fight is a poor decision on their part because it ruins the variation and experience of the encounter and reduces it to "bring x thing and do only x job so we can kill this bih and gtfo rinse repeat".  Amps and weapons need to be balanced so that there is a wide variety of gear to use, and damage revisited so that the majority of warframes can be good choices for squad members and diversify the experience.  To add to that, the eidolon tiers should have differing melee attack combos and movement patterns. Slow trodding land whales are fun but could be so much better. 

On to other points. 

The devs know that railjack is lacking big time. In terms of rewards, mission variety, and integration. Its a waiting game to see if they act on it. 

Liches too, to a degree. Tie them both in. 

As for rivens, hurry up and give us a stat locking mechanic. 

 

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24 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Then, that falls into the burn-out category. Its not the game that's different, its his perception that changed. All of his critics tell a tale of someone that placed high hopes in content and the content failed to meet his hopes.
I've got just about everything you can get in the game, bar a couple of Primes from the last releases that i've just not had luck with RNG. Protea (again RNG, not lack of trying), a few modular stuff i just didn't feel making yet, and some Syndicate stuff. And i still play the game daily, because my expectations didn't change, its still the same game, and i still enjoy playing it the same. Because i manage my game time and my expectations as to not burn myself out (because i got ~80% of the available content in my first 6 months of playing the game and then stopped playing for a year and change, so i learned my lesson).

I don't get your last sentence about pace? Don't like doing missions with newbies? Ok, don't... That's not on the developers. I often go out of my way and spend hours helping newbies grind for Rhino, and other Warframes, because hey, it feels nice to help out.

No, Rivens aren't required to do any content, no. What Rivens do is give players MORE CHOICE to do the higher level stuff without having to use the top 2-3 weapons in the game.
Xoris' situation has nothing to do with Rivens... Its all to do with it not losing combo counter... It doesn't need Rivens for that.
 And yeah, i agree Rivens are incredibly flawed, but its the solution they have for a lot of problems, especially how to make all the hundreds of weapons they have still feel unique, and still be marginally useful.

There is. You don't see it... Because, you know, its fun to dislike Rivens...
Making Rivens untradable, would mean its almost impossible to get Rivens for the weapons you like, and honestly, i've bought and sold like 5 Rivens all my life...
And you think Rivens are the cash influx they need? Dude... Have you seen Prime Access prices?

 

 

 

Just introduce a stat locking mechanic and make rolled rivens untradable. Then you can get unrolled and the only really outrageous priced ones will be perfect unrolled or mostly prefect. 

And with stat locking,  they wouldn't otherwise be too insane because obtaining godhood would be significantly more achievable. 

"But i wont be able to sell rivens to people for 1, 2, 3, or 5 thousand plat qq" 

GOOD. 

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5 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

Ok. Unpopular opinion but here goes anyway. 

Eidolons ARE a great addition to the game. Killing the arcane market is not justification for saying a mechanic, or activity, is bad. Youre using two separate potential discussions to justify some salt, supported by a third discussion. To clarify, boss mechanic vs reward mechanic divided by gear viability. 

Eidolons arent terrible by any means. There one of the better fights in game, potentially. The fact that the playerbase has run them hundreds of times in chore-mode with thirsty-for-plat motivations has NOTHING to do with the fact of wether its a good fight or not. That said, yeah.. for anyone who was here for scarlet spear theyre mostly useless now. The arcane prices have been regulated by that a bit which is imho fine and dandy. And, yes, limiting viable gear in such a big fight is a poor decision on their part because it ruins the variation and experience of the encounter and reduces it to "bring x thing and do only x job so we can kill this bih and gtfo rinse repeat".  Amps and weapons need to be balanced so that there is a wide variety of gear to use, and damage revisited so that the majority of warframes can be good choices for squad members and diversify the experience.  To add to that, the eidolon tiers should have differing melee attack combos and movement patterns. Slow trodding land whales are fun but could be so much better. 

On to other points. 

The devs know that railjack is lacking big time. In terms of rewards, mission variety, and integration. Its a waiting game to see if they act on it. 

Liches too, to a degree. Tie them both in. 

As for rivens, hurry up and give us a stat locking mechanic. 

 

for me eidolon is the worst fight in the entire game because it is like almost all others boss in warframe

shot it wait for 2 min shot it again repeat

not only this fight take too long it forces us to use the worst aspect of warframe, the operator

and forces us to do a landscape map, not only this it also forces you to be fast unless you want the eidolon to run away

compared to raids eidolon is nothing more than a bullet sponge

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10 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

Just introduce a stat locking mechanic and make rolled rivens untradable. Then you can get unrolled and the only really outrageous priced ones will be perfect unrolled or mostly prefect. 

And with stat locking,  they wouldn't otherwise be too insane because obtaining godhood would be significantly more achievable. 

"But i wont be able to sell rivens to people for 1, 2, 3, or 5 thousand plat qq" 

GOOD. 

That would be one partial solution, yeah.

But honestly, people only sell rivens for 5k plat, because someone out there is dumb enough to buy it...
And i mean that... Because if a weapon is used enough for the Riven price to go that high, the Riven will become steadily less good, and depreciate pretty quickly.

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2 hours ago, SeRialPiXel said:

You have Eidolons, a place where to get rewards you are actually forced to learn and practice a gamemode and where you can't just press 4 and turn off your brain. What does DE do? They introduce Scarlet Spear, killing the whole Arcanes market in a single event - and with that an entire gamemode. Who needs to do Eidolons when you can just park your ship and afk a mission countless times? Hell yeah, this is what we endorse.

Are you Salty about not being able to able to Bankrupt other Players with Arcane Energize ?

This is a Difficult thing for me to Sympathize with... and I aways sell stuff above Market Price (Usually only 10 :platinum more than the average)

As for the act of hunting of itself... the only part that needs you to turn your brain on is figuring out what builds this activity requires... once you have that... its just like every other activity in Warframe, I never found myself Concentrating any more or less than Speed Running Profit Tajer with Chroma or Gian Point with Munitions Vortex on Gian Point...Those are all Gear Checks, once you have the gear... its all the same level of Effort... atleast for me it is...

I didnt know one could start or Stop spending money based on all the things you just said... I msylf only spent money because I wanted Slots and didnt want to trade... Eventually I realised that even at a 75% Discount this wasnt good value for money, Steam Slaes are better and dont have DE's ass backwards logic

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2 hours ago, SeRialPiXel said:

The game feels unrewarding

The game feels un-rewarding because the game is largely un-rewarding.

It's a looter shooter without a whole bunch of loot for the bulk of it. Funnily enough, most of the areas (RailJack excluded) you mention specifically are areas where Risk and Reward are fairly well balanced...Whether you like those modes or not.

 

    RailJack, on the other hand,  is a mode I am growing to love... Re-visited was good for increasing accessibility but I think that they need to do a lot more still.

RailJack has "great bones with almost no meat on them" metaphorically speaking... If I were Steve, I would assign a team to only do RailJack and something RailJack oriented would come out in every update for the next 6-8 months.

Why?

Because I think they have a slick hit on their hands with it if they don't allow themselves to be swayed by all the negative feedback they have received about it so far...I really do. 

They could start by opening a RailJack specific Forum and engaging with folks on what they want to see and when.

It's literally the only portion of the game I would be willing to plug money into at this point and probably the single biggest reason I am back to logging in daily with intents on doing stuff.    

2 hours ago, SeRialPiXel said:

Ignoring feedback

Actually, having been here 7 years, I'd say it's quite the opposite...Often to their detriment.

Differing opinions will vary on the matter of course.

2 hours ago, SeRialPiXel said:

The nerf mentality

Eh, I'd rather they lightly tune something early as opposed to "Nuking it From Orbit" late.

Absent that, there are so many mechanic and system inter-dependencies in this game that the ripple effect of a nerf can be huge.

I give them credit for tackling a bunch of the most accessible ones in the last 2 years or so though.

2 hours ago, SeRialPiXel said:

Rivens, the slot machines that everyone is okay with

"Everyone" never was to begin with.

Rivens were a direct response to player requests to breathe new life into older/weaker weapons (we call that feedback) and created a monster instead with all of the features,  hoops, and complications they assigned to it.

Some love it... Some hate it... But no one has to deal with it .

For players who choose not to tinker with the system it's become a mechanic that awards either free endo or free plat...Not a bad gig tbh.

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33 minutes ago, Richeatue said:

 Basically don't invest anything into builds for fun/well performing weapons.....?

Then why the hell would anyone play this game? People will always have favorites. If you're saying not to invest into a fun weapon because it will be nerfed, that goes again the very core gameplay of warframe. That's not the player's fault, it's DE's fault for their wonky balancing and knee-jerk nerf cycle. Don't invest too much of your allowance money into the same lego set, no matter how fun or unique, because mom will eventually take it away anyway.

Logic doesn't work that way.  

Yes it is. Why? This is a F2P GAAS game. Items are going to be upgraded or downgraded when the developer sees fit. This is the reality of service games. 

Get riven in trades for other rivens. Get rivens in rewards or search for them in sorties. You invest zero platinum. If any weapon is meta, popular and fun be sure that DE will target it and downgrade the weapon.

This is why is wise to NOT invest high quantities of platinum on RNG weapons. They are RNG to begin with. Second, these weapons can get gimped at any time. Hence meta will be changing constantly. 

Again, using the brain and common sense teaches you this. 

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3 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

Then, that falls into the burn-out category. Its not the game that's different, its his perception that changed. All of his critics tell a tale of someone that placed high hopes in content and the content failed to meet his hopes.
I've got just about everything you can get in the game, bar a couple of Primes from the last releases that i've just not had luck with RNG. Protea (again RNG, not lack of trying), a few modular stuff i just didn't feel making yet, and some Syndicate stuff. And i still play the game daily, because my expectations didn't change, its still the same game, and i still enjoy playing it the same. Because i manage my game time and my expectations as to not burn myself out (because i got ~80% of the available content in my first 6 months of playing the game and then stopped playing for a year and change, so i learned my lesson).

Burn out is not a blanket response to someone's feelings about the end game perspective.  It's been pretty heavily debated and a point of annoyance that the game does not respect time investment from a veteran's situation.

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I don't get your last sentence about pace? Don't like doing missions with newbies? Ok, don't... That's not on the developers. I often go out of my way and spend hours helping newbies grind for Rhino, and other Warframes, because hey, it feels nice to help out.

No, it's an example of what I was talking about.  Your effort to get to MR20 is not accurately reflected in the game.  Your time spent has deminishing returns.  There are other live/service style games that manage to tackle this issue better.  We want DE to at least attempt to do so instead of funneling 90% of the content being aimed at new players.

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No, Rivens aren't required to do any content, no. What Rivens do is give players MORE CHOICE to do the higher level stuff without having to use the top 2-3 weapons in the game.
Xoris' situation has nothing to do with Rivens... Its all to do with it not losing combo counter... It doesn't need Rivens for that.
 And yeah, i agree Rivens are incredibly flawed, but its the solution they have for a lot of problems, especially how to make all the hundreds of weapons they have still feel unique, and still be marginally useful.

A large majority of your weapons are viable in a vast majority of the content without rivens.  We've not existed in that exclusive time period since the void exploded.  You can't accurately argue about rivens giving you a choice when your limited to how often you can obtain them and how little control over what you get out of them.  Xoris's gimmick allows for more freedom of mod choice since you do not need to worry about the combo counter. Rivens simimilalry can replace 2 or more mods in a given build thus freeing up mod choice.  That is the very legitimate comparison.

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There is. You don't see it... Because, you know, its fun to dislike Rivens...
Making Rivens untradable, would mean its almost impossible to get Rivens for the weapons you like, and honestly, i've bought and sold like 5 Rivens all my life...
And you think Rivens are the cash influx they need? Dude... Have you seen Prime Access prices?

 

 

 

Blanket disregarding my legitimate argument simply because i'm apart of the screw rivens group is lazy and annoying.  Not to mention saying there is technically a difference is just nitpicking rather than addressing my point.  Rivens are farmable loot boxes that have a very big impact on gameplay.  Obviously if they were to stop them from being tradeable the system would need to be overhauled.  Which i'm totally for.  I'm not stating that rivens are their cash cow.  I'm stating that it's a constant and consistent stream of cash flow specifically because of how they're implemented.  And that no developer no matter how good intentioned they are isn't going to just axe on a whim a reliable source of decent money.

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36 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Logic doesn't work that way.  

Yes it is. Why? This is a F2P GAAS game. Items are going to be upgraded or downgraded when the developer sees fit. This is the reality of service games. 

Get riven in trades for other rivens. Get rivens in rewards or search for them in sorties. You invest zero platinum. If any weapon is meta, popular and fun be sure that DE will target it and downgrade the weapon.

This is why is wise to NOT invest high quantities of platinum on RNG weapons. They are RNG to begin with. Second, these weapons can get gimped at any time. Hence meta will be changing constantly. 

Again, using the brain and common sense teaches you this. 

  Developer sees fit=/=justified by any means. DE isn't forced to play by the rules of other genres or F2P games, hell they already don't if you pay any attention to their model.

Rivens aren't a solution to the fear that your favorite weapon, op or not, could be nerfed tomorrow because it's "too popular." Could I use a god stug riven and have it kill sortie level enemies? Yup. Would I prefer to use that over an acceltra, or stahlita, or pretty much any "fun" weapon? Hell no. It would be human nature to invest more into the things you enjoy using, that's just logic. Getting a slap on the wrist for doing so is ridiculous and you know it. Also, I thought you said earlier that investing into rivens would be a fool's errand, I guess I'm just going to get a fully rolled god riven from my freshly unveiled +puncture +zoom one, no investment required. Ok.....

What? I never mentioned rng weapons, but again users shouldn't be punished for investing into a weapon they enjoy. Why do you support or enjoy a development cycle which actively punishes you for playing what you like? Or even a development cycle which actively spits on your time invested, sometimes with little to no forethought. |You know what changes the meta? Enemies demanding different playstyles, not completely scraping weapons. 

We can agree to disagree, however I'm not going to argue about it, since guessing by your other posts It looks as if your ego is too big to listen anyway. 

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Eh, some good points were made, though I can't agree with everything, but that's okay.

Warframe can definitely feel unrewarding. We can all tell horror-stories of how RNG gave us an abysmal game-experience. The number one complaint is how this game is too grindy, a second job. And seeing how just about everything in this game is navigating through multiple layers of RNG there is no escape. You will regularly be royally screwed and spend so many hours rolling on a table with only a single result allowing you to progress towards your goal, all others are duds and mean the time you put in got you nowhere. But it's the journey, not the destination? Alas, I wish it were a journey, but the table with that result you'd like to roll is generally tied to one place and one activity. Repitition is not a journey.

Heh, funny OP mentions Eidolons and Scarlet Spear. Ties in wonderfully with the above.

I personally feel the Eidolon fight is one of the better ones, especially solo. Many different balls to keep in the air, lotsa stuff happening and the fight ramps up in intensity if it gets dragged out. The reward system however is beyond vexing. Their loot-tables each contain, what, 10 Arcanes? I shall be charitable and say that only two thirds can be considered dead drops compared to the other third.

And you'd like to have 21 of those good ones. Do the math on how many times you are expected to repeat this fight. Might like this encounter, sure, and working towards collecting those arcanes could have been a nice goal, but nothing remains fun if you repeat it an undetermined but definitely insanely great number of times, most of the time getting duds, even if you trade away your unwanted and surplus ones and buy the ones you want.

Ok, now Scarlet Spear. Yes, it only had two missions, and they were bad. Nuff said. Lets instead look at how the reward structure worked. Do the missions, make progress. Every single time. No jackpot to marr the fun by declaring you just spent time getting absolutely nowhere. And progress towards a reward of your own choosing even! So. Much. Better.

Quantum leap forward in that department, yes, though they, again, forgot about the other ingredient which turns something into a grind. Only two missions. Oh, and you get a hefty bonus if you allocate about an hour doing nothing else but rince and repeat the same thing, over and over again. Gah!

But, ok, progress was made, and very slowly, oh so very slowly we're moving away from old-school mmorg mechanics and copying the Timbermaw rep and Thunderfury farm.

In short: excessive RNG combined with forced repitition is bound to make anything feel unrewarding, grindy and burn-out inducing. Warframe has too many of those, especially in the late game, so in that regard the OP is right. However, Scarlet Spear, though very, very flawed, still was a (baby-)step in the right direction. 

The very fact that so many (who obviously refused to buy the Arcanes with platinum) subjected themselves to this event in all of it's buggy, fustrating glory, for many, many hours over the duration of SS, grinding those same two stupid missions, is in itself proof just how soul-crushingly tedious and annoying getting them by farming Eidolons is.

To offer a constructive suggestion, now imagine that in Scarlet Spear, aside from the two new missions, other Sentient-oriented missions were also available to get its currency, such as the Eidolons, Ropapolyst and the Sentient Anomaly in the Veil to name a few. You could have done an entire wave and not repeated the same content once, and if you did, it would have been because you wanted to. Such variety, which was already present and in-game, just needed to be pulled into the event and combined with the reward structure would have been perfect imho. 

Anyway, Rivens is another example of such a perfect storm of RNG and forced repitition. And no, I doubt very much that the Rivens or Arcane market are actually such a net profit for DE. The reason they are so expensive is because stomaching the RNG and repetition is not something many can do. If it were, the supply would be bigger, because obviously there is platinum to be made, and yet, they remain vanishingly rare. Many will try, burn out and drop out. Like our horror-stories about getting shafted by RNG I am sure many of us will have friends who tried and bounced because of this.

Those people might have bought vanity items, little things from other players, boosters, Prime Access, all that stuff.

We can only guess, but I suspect keeping more people onboard is the more profitable proposition. I posit that all the crap worth too much platinum points to a systemic design flaw. If it is so desired, yet so frustrating to acquire, it can only be detrimental to your retention rate and therefore your bottom-line.

 

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