Disappointed to hear about Steel Path.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2020-07-02 at 8:50 PM, OniDax said:

 

Short version: Don't make it take longer to kill enemies. Make it take less time for enemies to kill you.

While I fully agree with this being a better way to make difficult content it's not a solution for Warframe.  Things already kill us pretty fast unless you have some form of damage reduction in your kit. Making them kill even faster would feel incredibly terrible because a vast majority of the enemies in the game fire hitscan weaponry at us.

There's really only two ways this game can be "difficult" in it's current form.  Statistical changes which is what Hard mode is, and making enemies immune to things.  Both are not fun and engaging to deal with for the most part and that's why the devs have been trying to move away from that stuff in regular content.  Hardmode being a hard gear check is fine and people need to accept that's what it can only be.  DE can still adjust the parameters to make it a more bareable and rewarding experience and I think they should.

But I think people trying to look at hardmode as a new way to play the game by it being more engaging than standard content are setting themselves up for disappointment.  As I don't think that was the intent for the mode.  At best it could maybe be a piece of content that finally exists for vets who like to push their builds to the max.  As the content would support that finally.  And the rewards would be a nice icing on top.  So it could actually be useful for someone and have a lasting stay.

[SneakyErvin]

45 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

There are no sponges in Warframe. Nothing you say will convince me otherwise. Likewise none of the content is a slog in my opinion, and nothing you say will convince me otherwise.

It's terrible feedback like that, which turned the Veil into an absolute joke, and yet some still claim sponge, and slog. I'm just going to sit here, a retired old half blind fart, that plays solo, and continue to maintain making already easy content, easier makes no sense.

If your opinion is the things that die so fast you never see the majority of the animations for them, are a sponge, I'm not going to try and change your mind. You apparently have others to keep you company.

May as well just agree to disagree. You seem to enjoy easy street, I find it mind numbing. End of story.

You dont get the idea of the sponge design concept. As I said, it doesnt matter if something dies instantly, it can still be a sponge by design. Lets say you deal 200 damage and a mob takes 100 to kill, if the game then adds a variable that increases their EHP to the double that is a direct sponge design, but you will still 1HK it with your 200 damage. 

It doesnt matter if things feel spongey or not, feeling doesnt change the design approach, and that design will hold back the game. When something only increases EHP of mobs it is sponge design, it doesnt get more simple than that. If they fail to meet a certain mark to make them more durable within the power creeping players is a whole different story.

[Nichivo]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You dont get the idea of the sponge design concept. As I said, it doesnt matter if something dies instantly, it can still be a sponge by design. Lets say you deal 200 damage and a mob takes 100 to kill, if the game then adds a variable that increases their EHP to the double that is a direct sponge design, but you will still 1HK it with your 200 damage. 

It doesnt matter if things feel spongey or not, feeling doesnt change the design approach, and that design will hold back the game. When something only increases EHP of mobs it is sponge design, it doesnt get more simple than that. If they fail to meet a certain mark to make them more durable within the power creeping players is a whole different story.

I understand exactly what you are trying to say. What part of anything that dies instantly I will never consider a sponge are you failing to understand.

Even if it has 9mil EHP if it dies instantly all it did was take 9mil damage instantly. If an enemy has 9 million EHP but the TTK is 10 minutes fine call that a sponge. If it has 9 mil EHP but the TTK is .001 tenths of a second or 100 microseconds it isn't a sponge. Sponges soak. Soaking takes time. Time is relevant. TTK is so fast in warframe, there are no sponges.

Now do you understand why I refuse to use that flawed term in that context, or is it really too hard for you to grasp?

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I understand exactly what you are trying to say. What part of anything that dies instantly I will never consider a sponge are you failing to understand.

Even if it has 9mil EHP if it dies instantly all it did was take 9mil damage instantly. If an enemy has 9 million EHP but the TTK is 10 minutes fine call that a sponge. If it has 9 mil EHP but the TTK is .001 tenths of a second or 100 microseconds it isn't a sponge. Sponges soak. Soaking takes time. Time is relevant. TTK is so fast in warframe, there are no sponges.

Now do you understand why I refuse to use that flawed term in that context, or is it really too hard for you to grasp?

But there is no other term to use. What would you refer the design to if you dont want to call it what it actually is even though it fails to solve the problems in the game? This is the simple term used in order to describe how DE treats "difficulty". The same thing happens in D3, it also has a sponge design yet everything dies in seconds. It is still the term used to describe the scaling design of that game.

As I said, the "feeling" doesnt matter, it is the root of the design that does.

edit: In short it is the term used when devs throw health on mobs and hopes it sticks.

[Nichivo]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But there is no other term to use. What would you refer the design to if you dont want to call it what it actually is even though it fails to solve the problems in the game? This is the simple term used in order to describe how DE treats "difficulty". The same thing happens in D3, it also has a sponge design yet everything dies in seconds. It is still the term used to describe the scaling design of that game.

As I said, the "feeling" doesnt matter, it is the root of the design that does.

edit: In short it is the term used when devs throw health on mobs and hopes it sticks.

Life too short for this. I already explained why I refuse to use the term sponge in this case, especially since it has taken on a negative connotation from being slung around so much. 

I am completely done with this.  You just want to argue semantics, on something one of us is smart enough to know we will never agree on. Even after I said we would never agree on the subject.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Nichivo said:

Life too short for this. I already explained why I refuse to use the term sponge in this case, especially since it has taken on a negative connotation from being slung around so much. 

I am completely done with this.  You just want to argue semantics, on something one of us is smart enough to know we will never agree on. Even after I said we would never agree on the subject.

I'm just asking what you'd call this type of design instead when someone ask you how WF handles scaling and difficulty. Since that is mostly why we use terms, to describe something people can relate to.

[IceColdHawk]

Whether you want to believe it or not but "bullet sponge" enemies don't die as quickly and therefore have more time to be a threat and potentially kill you. It is indeed a factor for harder difficulty in the end. Makes people pay more attention and/or rethink their builds. I'm not saying that it ultimately makes it super HARD, but it is indeed a factor. 

[Hypernaut1]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

Whether you want to believe it or not but "bullet sponge" enemies don't die as quickly and therefore have more time to be a threat and potentially kill you. It is indeed a factor for harder difficulty in the end. Makes people pay more attention and/or rethink their builds.

I think some people become fixated on buzzwords=bad. They can dismiss any trait as "bad design".

 

[IceColdHawk]

19 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think some people become fixated on buzzwords=bad. They can dismiss any trait as "bad design".

 

In the end it can also mean for players to lean more towards damage frames over tank frames like Inaros and damage frames usually come with worse survivability meaning people would have to survive through other means. But of course that gets complained about being "I don't find it fun to play this and that frame". Which even in this extreme scenario, people still don't have to pick damage frames because they can team up and cover different roles which ultimately ends up in a better coop experience. 

[Nichivo]

35 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Whether you want to believe it or not but "bullet sponge" enemies don't die as quickly and therefore have more time to be a threat and potentially kill you. It is indeed a factor for harder difficulty in the end. Makes people pay more attention and/or rethink their builds. I'm not saying that it ultimately makes it super HARD, but it is indeed a factor. 

Bravo! No amount of anyone explaining how a longer TTK has that effect, has been understood by a large number of people in this thread.

I will subtract a few points though for using the tern "Bullet Sponge", because it's highly overused and the ttk of enemies in warframe is way to low for me to refer to anything as a sponge.

[Angwah]

Oh, this forum definitely has some buzzwords which have taken on a life of their own and have migrated far from what they actually mean.

'Bullet Sponge', 'Content Island' and 'Meta' are currently the overused ones.

Eh, whatever, I guess.

Yes, some of the mobs we encounter need to live long enough to be threat. Not all of them, no, but some of them. No, this does not make them bullet sponges. Content islands are not inherently bad, sometimes even necessary, and a meta is by definition always present. One that is alive and ever-changing is something to be embraced, as it is the hallmark of a healthy and vibrant game and community. One that is stale and static, well, that game is a dead man walking.