Disappointed to hear about Steel Path.

[Talinthis]

12 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Well, the regular mission changes are mildly disappointing, but Archwing changes are a joke. Back to killing everything in one hit I guess.

the faster i can get through archwing missions the better

[Nichivo]

5 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

The only way you could find this content too difficult is if you have not modded correctly to face it, and even then you could just play Rhino with no mods at all and easily breeze through it.

Then there was no reason to make it easier. I agree!

[Nichivo]

6 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

There was a poll regarding difficulty for testers; "Were enemy levels too high, too low, or just right?" ~80% of testers answered "Just right." Don't blame this on us.

You should probably read that through again slowly, as you misunderstood what was stated.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, (NSW)Jothki said:

Never fought a high level Noximus without a corrosive weapon? I'm not sure how the rebalancing affected them, but they used to be crazily durable. And then there's the Wolf, who I'd be perfectly happy to never have to slowly wear down again.

Nox are easy with the right weaponry and the Wolf died in seconds with the right build. If you go into missions with a casual loadout and unprepared, then yes it'll take you a while. When you build for higher level missions like these you account for such things.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, Nichivo said:

You should probably read that through again slowly, as you misunderstood what was stated.

You wrote "I hate to say this, but if those players wanting a challenge are never in the test cluster, then how can we ever hope to have a challenge in the game?"

Testers didn't ask to nerf the Steel Path. Thus saying "players wanting a challenge are never in the test cluster" seems misleading. Well, about 10% asked for it, while another 10% asked to make it tougher.

[Klavinmour]

2 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Then there was no reason to make it easier. I agree!

THEY DIDN'T MAKE IT EASIER!

READ EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID OVER AGAIN!

 

Nowhere was this content difficult, lowering the amount of health enemies have is not making it easier, it's removing the tedious nature of things AND ONLY THAT.

There IS NO DIFFICULTY.

Difficulty is:
- never being able to assassinate someone in a Stealth game because they are all on high alert now that they discovered that one body you failed to hide
-  an enemy being on the same level as you and putting up a fight that can actually bring you down if you don't approach it correctly
- needing to learn mechanics to approach a fight or other scenario

 

Difficulty is not and NEVER will be a health bar.

[JustL1me]

Oh yeah, it was so difficult stun locking all the enemies in the vicinity while the squad plinks their hyper-meta weapon builds in the faces of grineer brick walls. It really was just more tedious without being more engaging.

[(NSW)Mbek]

16 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Well, the regular mission changes are mildly disappointing, but Archwing changes are a joke. Back to killing everything in one hit I guess.

You realize how severely underpowered Archwing is compared to Warframe, right? Unless you like playing mindlessly with Amesha being invincible while chipping away at slowed down enemies which take forever to kill.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb Traumtulpe:

Well, the regular mission changes are mildly disappointing, but Archwing changes are a joke. Back to killing everything in one hit I guess.

I'm not sure how well Archwing content scales with levels only. I just remember Archwing content with 300% h/s/a and +100 levels being critiqued for having no options available to deal with those values unlike regular missions. Which seems plausible considering how few Archwing gear there is.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, (NSW)Mbek said:

You realize how severely underpowered Archwing is compared to Warframe, right? Unless you like playing mindlessly with Amesha being invincible while chipping away at slowed down enemies which take forever to kill.

Regular Corpus took 2 shots, regular Grineer 3-4. Rare units took quite a few more. Level x+50 enemies literally die in one hit.

[Nichivo]

10 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

They didn't make it easier, they lowered how tedious it was.

Maybe stop using the word "tedious", when what you really mean is "effort". Because lets face facts killing anything in waframe is fast enough, that describing it as "tedious" is preposterous.

[OniDax]

45 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Never experienced an actual bullet sponge in Warfame. I have heard people claim they exist, but have always been proven wrong when I went to check them out for myself. Maybe you need to revise your builds.

So you haven't actually paid any attention to the actual Steel Path experience then, have you? Because EVERYONE is saying that's exactly what Steel Path is: a bullet sponge mode.

 

That point aside, as someone who has never cared for hard mode content, or endgame content (which tends to try to be very difficult), let me offer my two cents on the issue:

If you're purely looking at stat buffs to make enemies more difficult, it's never a good idea to buff their health. That just makes it take longer to kill them. That's not difficulty. That just means extending TTK so that it takes longer to kill them. You want more difficulty? Buff enemy damage while leaving health the same. Then, they become like the Warframes. You can benefit from your maxed out weapons, but the game is just as punishing for you because they can take you out just as quickly as you can take them out. Therefore, you have to be a good enough player to be able to use your abilities and weapons to take out enemies before they take you out. That's proper stat-based difficulty.

Short version: Don't make it take longer to kill enemies. Make it take less time for enemies to kill you.

[Klavinmour]

1 minute ago, Nichivo said:

Maybe stop using the word "tedious", when what you really mean is "effort". Because lets face facts killing anything in waframe is fast enough, that describing it as "tedious" is preposterous.

What "effort" ?

If I'm falling asleep, I'm 100% certain I am not putting any effort into killing the thing at all.

This is why I'm saying "tedious", there is no effort requirement, it just takes longer than it should to kill a thing and doesn't make it in any way interesting or engaging which would be the type of stuff to actually get effort out of me.

And once again, you're ignoring every other point I make, because you can't argue against them as you know I'm right.

[o0Despair0o]

41 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Never experienced an actual bullet sponge in Warfame. I have heard people claim they exist, but have always been proven wrong when I went to check them out for myself. Maybe you need to revise your builds.

If an enemy survives 10+ shots to the face, I consider them a bullet sponge.

 

I've seen enemies tanking several magazines of fully modded weapons. Are you seriously trying to tell me that there are no bullet sponges?

The scaling rework reduced the bullet sponge issue, but it still exists to some extend.

[Nichivo]

1 minute ago, Klavinmour said:

What "effort" ?

If I'm falling asleep, I'm 100% certain I am not putting any effort into killing the thing at all.

This is why I'm saying "tedious", there is no effort requirement, it just takes longer than it should to kill a thing and doesn't make it in any way interesting or engaging which would be the type of stuff to actually get effort out of me.

And once again, you're ignoring every other point I make, because you can't argue against them as you know I'm right.

Then why make it even easier to kill? Again you defeat your own argument.

Please go ahead and explain how it can be tedious?  If by your own admission you already kill it without effort. We are talking about seconds, and fractions of a second here. Tedious isn't an accurate description for something over in a fraction of a second.

 

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

Difficulty is not and NEVER will be a health bar.

Often not, sure, but "NEVER"?  What about for glass cannons?  Killing things in one or two hits instead of always 1HKing isn't  inherently tedious, and it can be a lot more dangerous.  (And therefore more fun, at least for some.)

Developers do tend to rely too much on health bar inflation as an easy answer to calls for more difficulty.  But it sure can be used appropriately as part of the answer.

[KnossosTNC]

8 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Then why make it even easier to kill? Again you defeat your own argument.

Please go ahead and explain how it can be tedious?  If by your own admission you already kill it without effort. We are talking about seconds, and fractions of a second here. Tedious isn't an accurate description for something over in a fraction of a second.

 

Mate, when you can stand there and face-tank bullets coming at you with no effort, and your own bullets deal little better than pin pricks against them, that is not a fun and stimulating challenge. That is a pre-determined staring contest, and a war of attrition between the game and your patience.

[Nichivo]

12 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

If an enemy survives 10+ shots to the face, I consider them a bullet sponge.

 

I've seen enemies tanking several magazines of fully modded weapons. Are you seriously trying to tell me that there are no bullet sponges?

The scaling rework reduced the bullet sponge issue, but it still exists to some extend.

Well that would be silly. 10 shots if the fire rate is high enough could only take a fraction of a second.

What enemy are you shooting? What weapon are you using, and what is the actual TTK? What mods are in the weapon? What Arcanes are you using on what frame? 

I can load up some 175 corrupted heavy grab any weapon remove the mods, and use a benign frame, with no arcanes, or mods, and match those results, but it just means I failed to use anything to my advantage.

Where are those bullet sponges you speak of I want to go fight them? Tell me what you were using at the  time.

[Loza03]

18 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Maybe stop using the word "tedious", when what you really mean is "effort". Because lets face facts killing anything in waframe is fast enough, that describing it as "tedious" is preposterous.

Difference comes down to whether the core systems are engaging. Warframe… teeters a bit on that.

A larger health bar means a longer encounter. If that encounter itself is fun and engaging, well, good. If it isn't - if it is, in fact, just holding or repeatedly pressing one button until it dies, as it is in Warframe at 'high level', then there's a problem.

 

The Steel Path was never going to be anything more than something like DMC's Heaven or Hell mode. An 'alternate gamemode'. A 'challenge mode' if you will. If we're ever going to get a more balanced, more interesting game, then it's not going to come from large health bars. It's going to come from DE walking in and saying 'you can have these abilities be infinitely spammable, or extremely powerful, but you can't have both', and several other changes to AI, enemy visual and mechanical design and systems.

[Nichivo]

5 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Mate, when you can stand there and face-tank bullets coming at you with no effort, and your own bullets deal little better than pin pricks against them, that is not a fun and stimulating challenge. That is a pre-determined staring contest, and a war of attrition between the game and your patience.

Unless your build is bad, that never happened in warframe. You are either making things harder for yourself, or doing something wrong to achieve those results.

[(XBOX)ONI Prowess]

warframe is not supposed to be hard, and thats fine.

its a power fantasy, like an ARPG (diablo or path of exile) the point is killing massive amounts of enemies.

if you want to spend 15 minutes clearing a room of 10 enemies that flee from you go play destiny, or if you want to spend half an hour cowering behind cover killing 1 enemy go play the division 2. 

i want to parkour through a room killing hundreds of enemies, so i play warframe.  

[Celosi]

It's a fine balancing act between difficulty and allowing for build diversity. You sacrifice one for the sake of the other.  I saw alot of videos from several people on the test server.  The enemies in normal missions were tough enough to significantly restrict build diversity and force only very specific frames and weapons. The changes they made were minor (300% to 250%? basically nothing) but hopefully that gets a bit better. 

Everyone knows high level archwing is just hell in general.  It was never built for the kind of scaling that you see in normal missions; that's why we don't have archwing Sortie missions.  DE is very well aware that high level archwing scaling needs a revisit but they haven't had a reason to do so.  Unless you have -the- archwing and -the- weapon build that can take out enemies in a reasonable time or with certain cheesy defensive tactics at those levels, these missions weren't reasonable to do.  There was zero build diversity; it's one archwing and one-two weapons which are usable and defeats the purpose of this type of game.  The changes they made to those missions sound reasonable, and well see how it goes live.  

[ttylerrocks4u]

Wait did we see the same stream??? You realize these enemies are still gonna be strong and still retain a majority of the sortie modifier right? Also it was voiced that archwing was just stupid in hard mode. Even with the recent mod primed rubido barrel they were way way way to strong. It was highly voiced through feed back . Thats why it was changed. I like the changes so far they have established a base or something they can build upon. With a store and actually take feed back i love it personally.

[Traumtulpe]

So I just watched the stream, 3 players bumbling through a Steel Path exterminate mission from Megs perspective. They had no problems at all, and seemingly put no effort into it.

Sure, it took Meg a while to kill anything, but that is because she had no elements, nor Hunter Munitions on her weapon.

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

Do you know how to limit Loadout Variety? Bullet Sponges. That's how you get people to overuse the META and get it nerfed.

Yup. This is a *hard* gear check. I'd be willing to bet this game mode is gonna ultimately lead to a big time nerf wave. 

56 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Regular missions: 300% health/shield/armor down to 250%.

Archwing: 300% health/shield/armor down to 100% (regular) and level increase from +100 down to +50.

I might be misremembering the Archwing changes but I'm pretty sure the regular mission changes are correct. 

Feel free to correct me so I can edit it.

Thank you for posting the relevant information op was too lazy to provide. 

51 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

There was nothing at all difficult about Steel Path.
More health and damage on enemies does not make them difficult, at all.
It just makes them take longer to kill, makes them more tedious if anything.


Warframe is not a game that can ever have REAL difficulty, because our Warframes are living war crimes.

The only way to make Warframe more difficult is to add in new enemies with different approaches to combat, that don't rely on being nothing more than a bullet sponge.

Theres a list of reasons warframe will never be "difficult" the way people crying about this "issue" want it to be.

43 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

They didn't make it easier, they lowered how tedious it was.

Making it take 3 hours to complete an Exterminate, because it takes 10 seconds to kill each enemy, is not good game design and never will be.

Warframe is a game where the majority of enemies die fast with the occasional enemy type that requires a different approach than just shotgun to the stomach like the Nox or a Bursa.

 

This game is on the same level as a Dynasty Warriors game, where there is no difficulty because one swing of your sword carves up an ocean of enemies.

"Reeeeeeee but much challenge I want to play dark souls reeeeeeee"

35 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

THEY DIDN'T MAKE IT EASIER!

READ EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID OVER AGAIN!

 

Nowhere was this content difficult, lowering the amount of health enemies have is not making it easier, it's removing the tedious nature of things AND ONLY THAT.

There IS NO DIFFICULTY.

Difficulty is:
- never being able to assassinate someone in a Stealth game because they are all on high alert now that they discovered that one body you failed to hide
-  an enemy being on the same level as you and putting up a fight that can actually bring you down if you don't approach it correctly
- needing to learn mechanics to approach a fight or other scenario

 

Difficulty is not and NEVER will be a health bar.

I think you're wasting your time. To be honest. 

29 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Maybe stop using the word "tedious", when what you really mean is "effort". Because lets face facts killing anything in waframe is fast enough, that describing it as "tedious" is preposterous.

They could easily give enemies 10x as much health. That doesn't mean that the game would be more difficult. If youre knowledgeable enough about the game to claim that you've never encountered a "bullet sponge" scenario you should know that simply asking me to shoot an enemy 10x as much doesnt necessarily do anything but make the mission take longer. Making a steak take longer to chew doesn't make it better. 

25 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

What "effort" ?

If I'm falling asleep, I'm 100% certain I am not putting any effort into killing the thing at all.

This is why I'm saying "tedious", there is no effort requirement, it just takes longer than it should to kill a thing and doesn't make it in any way interesting or engaging which would be the type of stuff to actually get effort out of me.

And once again, you're ignoring every other point I make, because you can't argue against them as you know I'm right.

This. Im glad you get it. They could add a few zeros in their code somewhere and give enemies say, i don't know, 1000% health across the board. That would technically be more "difficult", but more engaging? More fun? More intellectually demanding? No. 

9 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Mate, when you can stand there and face-tank bullets coming at you with no effort, and your own bullets deal little better than pin pricks against them, that is not a fun and stimulating challenge. That is a pre-determined staring contest, and a war of attrition between the game and your patience.

yup.. there is an enormous variance in survivability between the tankiest frames and the squishiest. And some nerf herders aka "ree but much challenge" types might want DE to nerf those tankier frames for the sake of "challenge", or maybe they want squishier frames to be less squishy but the point is at that point you're asking DE to rework practically half the frames in the game. Which given how long it takes them to rework ONE frame sometimes (ember), good luck waiting for that.