Warframe isn't meant to be "challenging".

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The idea that a player should just blindly waltz into every room annihilating everything is why enemies are constantly nerfed. 

There's a middle ground between "I need to keep in mind every single possible combination of enemies that might appear at any time and from any angle in this mission" and what you describe. Ideally, gameplay would be designed so that a reasonably attentive player could be expected to clear a given encounter on their first attempt, but a reckless one would get squashed. Personally, I'd say a good place to start with Warframe would be giving enemies clear telegraphs and ways to negate our CC. Others may disagree.

Strategy comes from enemies that give you the opportunity to respond in the moment, rather than pre-empt in the Arsenal screen. Warframe's problem is that most of its "threats" come from hitscan, homing and AOE attacks, which often come out without warning, from enemies that don't have a notably different silhouette from their peers. Which means that once levels scale high enough, there is no reasonable way for a player to respond to them. And since the maps are randomly set up, there is no guarantee that you'll actually be able to use the geometry to your advantage.

The old Ballistas, for instance, were basically set so that if one spawned at a high enough level, they could kill you instantly with no warning. That's not challenge, it's a dice roll. While I think they were somewhat over-nerfed (thanks to their laser sight acting more as an indicator of who they were targeting rather than an actual telegraph of where the shot was going to go).

The old Manics often get dredged as an example as well, but what most don't seem to realise is that their damage output wasn't what people were bothered by. They were melee units with mostly clear . Instead, it was the combination of being able to cloak and teleport, having excessively long periods of invulnerability, and health regeneration (which, mind you, they still had while both invulnerable and invisible). The result was an enemy that you had a very real chance of being literally incapable of killing, if the AI decided to trigger its I-frames and teleport away to heal every time you drew a bead on them.

7 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

it's about "after knowing and understanding the mechanics".

OK, pray tell, what exactly am I supposed to learn about an ancient spawning right behind me and immediately downing me with Toxic Screech?

Because when RNG is put in charge of both enemy type and placement, these are the kinds of scenarios that become distressingly common in the player's experience.

When you make untelegraphed damage spikes the means by which players get downed, that's not a challenge. For instance, the Ropalolyst's hand lasers. Despite them being a 1-hit-kill against most frames (2-hits now that shield gating is in place) even when built for survivability, my issue isn't that they have such a high output. It's that the shots have an invisible AOE that matches neither the targeting laser nor the appearance of the attack itself.

[(XBOX)ONI Prowess]

10 minutes ago, Xaero said:

How can it not be required if

?

because the difficulty is not to a degree where build and frame diversity are compromised.

take for instance the steel path, a difficulty where both build and frame diversity were narrowed to strict levels for the sake of "difficulty" 

 

is a MR 25+ player playing octavia in steel path doing nothing but humping the ground over and over while the enemies kill themselves on her mallet have a more difficult time then a MR 2 player clearing an exterminate with a base braton, base excalibur, mods with no more then 3-4 pips in them, terrible builds, etc. 

 

i hate games with "scaling" or "endless" difficulty, as there is never a point of finality or accomplishment.

after the years of effort, time, money, grinding, the game BETTER be less difficult.  

[Xaero]

Just now, (XB1)ONI Prowess said:

because the difficulty is not to a degree where build and frame diversity are compromised.

So now it's not about clearing massive amounts of mobs in a blink of an eye?

[Hypernaut1]

23 minutes ago, Corvid said:

There's a middle ground between "I need to keep in mind every single possible combination of enemies that might appear at any time and from any angle in this mission" and what you describe. Ideally, gameplay would be designed so that a reasonably attentive player could be expected to clear a given encounter on their first attempt, but a reckless one would get squashed. Personally, I'd say a good place to start with Warframe would be giving enemies clear telegraphs and ways to negate our CC. Others may disagree.

Strategy comes from enemies that give you the opportunity to respond in the moment, rather than pre-empt in the Arsenal screen. Warframe's problem is that most of its "threats" come from hitscan, homing and AOE attacks, which often come out without warning, from enemies that don't have a notably different silhouette from their peers. Which means that once levels scale high enough, there is no reasonable way for a player to respond to them. And since the maps are randomly set up, there is no guarantee that you'll actually be able to use the geometry to your advantage.

The old Ballistas, for instance, were basically set so that if one spawned at a high enough level, they could kill you instantly with no warning. That's not challenge, it's a dice roll. While I think they were somewhat over-nerfed (thanks to their laser sight acting more as an indicator of who they were targeting rather than an actual telegraph of where the shot was going to go).

The old Manics often get dredged as an example as well, but what most don't seem to realise is that their damage output wasn't what people were bothered by. They were melee units with mostly clear . Instead, it was the combination of being able to cloak and teleport, having excessively long periods of invulnerability, and health regeneration (which, mind you, they still had while both invulnerable and invisible). The result was an enemy that you had a very real chance of being literally incapable of killing, if the AI decided to trigger its I-frames and teleport away to heal every time you drew a bead on them.

OK, pray tell, what exactly am I supposed to learn about an ancient spawning right behind me and immediately downing me with Toxic Screech?

Because when RNG is put in charge of both enemy type and placement, these are the kinds of scenarios that become distressingly common in the player's experience.

When you make untelegraphed damage spikes the means by which players get downed, that's not a challenge. For instance, the Ropalolyst's hand lasers. Despite them being a 1-hit-kill against most frames (2-hits now that shield gating is in place) even when built for survivability, my issue isn't that they have such a high output. It's that the shots have an invisible AOE that matches neither the targeting laser nor the appearance of the attack itself.

But you don't need to know "every single combination". If you're fighting Grineer, you have an idea of what spawns based on the tileset. 

I disagree that strategy should always be about giving the players the chance to respond before the enemy can even act. It's not very hard to go into a situation prepared for the worst. 

Ballistas needed the red dot and sound. The nerf to their reaction time was unnecessary. It wasn't too hard to find them in a room if you simply went into that room expecting to find one. Why shouldn't a skilled player be expected to anticipate attacks? That's how it works in real life. If it was PvP, I would enter a room with caution. If enemies truly had "better a.i" they wouldn't be telegraphing everything they do. A skilled player should be able to deal with an ambush. If not, this call for "better a.i" is baloney. 

Ancients aren't supposed to spawn directly behind you. They're supposed to have spawn closets. With that said, expect to be swarmed when going up against the infested. I see no problem with that. Staying on one spot spamming abilities should be punished for that faction.

Manics were fine. My only gripe with them was it really always clear when and why they became invulnerable. 

 

All in all.... Players still weren't failing missions before the enemy nerfs (bomards did end defense runs quickly though). I rarely heard of anyone saying they couldn't finish a mission because of manics, ancients, bursas,etc. 

I understand why many people DON'T  like difficult enemies, I'm not saying the entire game should be this way. There's no right way to enjoy Warframe and if players just enjoy the illusion of varied enemies that are really just bullet sponges, that's fine. I do want Steel Path to provide a true challenge though. One that doesn't rely on just HP and damage. Unnerfing enemies would be a great way to offer that. 

[Vit0Corleone]

2 hours ago, (XB1)ONI Prowess said:

if you want to spend 15 minutes clearing a room play destiny

This is really not true.

The difference is that Destiny provides a wide enough variety of content, where you can chose to chill, turn of your brain and obliterate "rooms" in seconds, or pick more challenging activities that require you to have top level gear and actually think and strategize.

Warframe has no such option, challenge hasn't been a thing for years.

[(XBOX)ONI Prowess]

1 minute ago, Vit0Corleone said:

This is really not true.

The difference is that Destiny provides a wide enough variety of content, where you can chose to chill, turn of your brain and obliterate "rooms" in seconds, or pick more challenging activities that require you to have top level gear and actually think and strategize.

Warframe has no such option, challenge hasn't been a thing for years.

wrong, raids in destiny were never difficult at the tactical level, they were difficult at the strategic level of getting 6 people to all do the exact correct thing at the exact correct time. raids were difficult because the design of them was to introduce specific complicated mechanics and mechanisms and NOT TELL the players how to complete them.

it was never "oh darn those enemies were just so smart"

it was ALWAYS "timmy didn't get back to the bubble before the duration ran out and now the insta fail mechanic triggered"

ALWAYS, one person messed up on something, one person didnt stand on their plate, one person didnt shoot the right button, one person moved out of order.

 

thats why raid groups always want people that have done them, because when you know them they are trivial, months down the line and people zerg through them because once the mechanics are known there is no more difficulty. 

 

[(XBOX)ONI Prowess]

16 minutes ago, Xaero said:

So now it's not about clearing massive amounts of mobs in a blink of an eye?

don't be facetious or ignorant just for the sake of it, your making yourself look silly not me. 

 

[Vit0Corleone]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)ONI Prowess said:

wrong, raids in destiny were never difficult at the tactical level, they were difficult at the strategic level of getting 6 people to all do the exact correct thing at the exact correct time. raids were difficult because the design of them was to introduce specific complicated mechanics and mechanisms and NOT TELL the players how to complete them.

it was never "oh darn those enemies were just so smart"

it was ALWAYS "timmy didn't get back to the bubble before the duration ran out and now the insta fail mechanic triggered"

ALWAYS, one person messed up on something, one person didnt stand on their plate, one person didnt shoot the right button, one person moved out of order.

 

thats why raid groups always want people that have done them, because when you know them they are trivial, months down the line and people zerg through them because once the mechanics are known there is no more difficulty. 

 

What part of what I wrote was wrong?

I said "require you to have top level gear and actually think and strategize". Well, "adequate" gear would be more accurate I guess.

Those things, along with player skill, are usually important for challenging content. Raids, Dungeons, you name it. 

Anyways, my point was that Destiny has that *optional* content, while at the same time providing a wide variety of casual obliterate-mobs-in-seconds style.

You don't take 15 minutes to clear a "room" in Destiny unless you chose to do so. 

 

[Xaero]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)ONI Prowess said:

don't be facetious or ignorant just for the sake of it, your making yourself look silly not me. 

I'm only saying your first statement is wrong, and you're proving it yourself. Killing hordes very fast only matters in one mode: ESO. Many types of missions don't even require any killing.

DE could limit our abilities/weapons and toughen up the enemies, but Warframe will still feel like Warframe, not like Destiny or Division. Being able to mindlessly obliterate half the map doesn't make the game what it is.

[NekroArts]

6 minutes ago, Corvid said:

OK, pray tell, what exactly am I supposed to learn about an ancient spawning right behind me and immediately downing me with Toxic Screech?

You don't stop moving. This is one of the things that was established long ago when going against infested - don't ever let them swarm you. Use whatever method you can - run, move, CC. Their abilities are designed around swarming the players.

They don't "spawn right behind", they spawn in a different room. The few times where it can spawn behind are fissures, exterminate, and disruption (Brood Surge that causes infested pods to spawn everywhere) and even then there's a delay of them doing something after seeing you.

15 minutes ago, Corvid said:

When you make untelegraphed damage spikes the means by which players get downed, that's not a challenge.

That "untelegraphed damage spikedamage spike" comes from understanding where you are now. In a scenario with endless missions or other higher level missions, the nature of those is enemies getting more durable and hitting harder; players needs to understand that once they get pass a certain point, yeah, getting one-shotted is on the table. If challenge didn't include an increase in enemies damage, then all we would have would be bullet sponge. Even if we limit that damage relative to warframes health, armor, and other damage reduction, we would still end up with bullet sponge.

43 minutes ago, Corvid said:

For instance, the Ropalolyst's hand lasers. Despite them being a 1-hit-kill against most frames (2-hits now that shield gating is in place) even when built for survivability, my issue isn't that they have such a high output. It's that the shots have an invisible AOE that matches neither the targeting laser nor the appearance of the attack itself.

But it's not so unfair that it's an issue needing to address, even after knowing that that's how it works. Ropalolyst is leading its shot with them, turning opposite of where it's leading will help avoiding it. If you end up knowing you'll get hit, roll; the damage reduction from rolling did help in that fight.

[(XBOX)ONI Prowess]

15 minutes ago, Xaero said:

I'm only saying your first statement is wrong, and you're proving it yourself. Killing hordes very fast only matters in one mode: ESO. Many types of missions don't even require any killing.

DE could limit our abilities and toughen up the enemies, but Warframe will still feel like Warframe, not like Destiny or Division. Being able to mindlessly obliterate half the map doesn't make the game what it is.

including game modes for the sake of it also does not change the game from what it is, fortnite has a single player mode, cod has a campaign, WoW has pvp, warframe has pvp, etc.

their are 23 game modes in warframe at current, and people only really enjoy the ones where your killing things, lots of things. most of the various modes are a combination of either survival or exterminate and some other mechanics.

spy exists, and people generally dont run them, let alone group for them (noobs can screw up an objective) though i admit i like to creep through them once in a while as a change of pace, but only really as ivara because thats guaranteed success. 

defection people generally hate with a passion. 

rescue is zerg'd through for completion

capture is zerg'd through for completion.

etc.

 

the end all be all game mode people run the most is survival. be that pushing in ESO or sitting in MoT, and MoT has been the classic endgame endless run since forever. people like killing things, lots of things, its a power fantasy. and warframe has many various ways, tools, and frames, for you to do that in whatever way you find fun. 

in fact the main complaint i see about survival is the air drop, i promise if their was a version of suvival without that mechanic, so just an endless exterminate, it would be the most played game mode.

[Xaero]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)ONI Prowess said:

their are 23 game modes in warframe at current, and people only really enjoy the ones where your killing things, lots of things.

Speaking for everyone is not a good thing to do. I can partially agree though, many players really enjoy killing stuff (though that's far from the only thing). But what does this have to do with "clearing massive amounts of mobs in the blink of an eye"? You think people can't enjoy just killing stuff with style, regardless of numbers? Effortless nuking, in my opinion, is lazy and boring. Make it mandatory, and people will complain. It can't be the point of the game.

[BlueGuy13]

IMO, effortlessly nuking is fun. And now we wait for the people calling me wrong and tell me what "fun" is.

[Nichivo]

On 2020-07-03 at 12:36 PM, Voltage said:

Nah, I don't believe for an instant that the target audience wants to push themself. Any time we get a new update, the grind needs to be reduced. Any time we get something that takes a bit of gear progression, it needs to be watered down (see: how Shield Gating affects survivability, 6 revives per mission, Arbitration revives system, Railjack enemy scaling nerfs, the "gear gets too restrictive" argument for Steel Path, and my favorite one: "Bullet sponges aren't real difficulty!!!"). News flash: Bullet sponges make more enemies able to have a chance to hurt you and forces you to deal with targets differently rather than face-rolling a mission.

What I have noticed is that people want more and more rewards, but they don't want to earn it, and they don't want it to be testing their builds. Warframe is extremely casual. Warframe promotes variety over progression. "Everything is viable" is why Warframe Revised and Melee 3.0 has made the game extremely shallow in combat. You point, you smash E or click, and the enemy is demolished without any feedback. People who acquire a few core basic DPS mods will obliterate almost all content DE puts out. And when they don't? Like Scarlet Spear, it needs to be toned down so that bad builds can compete with good ones.

The Steel Path's chance to actually spice up Archwing combat and use some weapon + ability combos is out the window with the changes coming to make them boring level 50 enemies so a poorly modded Imperator can chew through them.

+1 You are 100% absolutely on Point. +1 to a few other in here also very astute observations.

It's a terrible downward spiral of whirling gears, I wish I could toss a kuva monkey wrench into. 

Hey Corvid! As a founder do you remember the days back in the Void when many tenno complained about being snatch out of the air by certain deadly Ancients capable of one hitting you later into the mission? Did you realize like some of the rest of us that those same Ancients telegraphed that move with their animations before it happened?

The so called cheap one hits you talk about, could be avoided by simply opening your eyes, and prioritizing enemies based on the threat level they posed. The only thing not present was a big red circle screaming don't stand in me you are about to die. What you needed to know was there, subtle but there, it was a thing of beauty.

[Corvid]

3 hours ago, Nichivo said:

Hey Corvid!

If you want to get my attention, either put an @ before my name or quote me. Otherwise it looks like you're just trying to talk behind my back.

3 hours ago, Nichivo said:

Did you realize like some of the rest of us that those same Ancients telegraphed that move with their animations before it happened?

Did you realise that said telegraph has nearly no windup? It basically amounts to lifting their arm. It also looks fairly similar to some of their generic animations (and is nearly identical to their arm-stretch punch).

Compare with the Grineer Commander. It has a distinctive audio cue, a visual effect that means you know it's targeting you even if the enemy is behind you, and can be countered in multiple ways.

3 hours ago, Nichivo said:

The so called cheap one hits you talk about, could be avoided by simply opening your eyes,

I'm flattered that you think I'm so skilled as to be able to play the game with my eyes closed, but no.

Having clear, unambiguous telegraphs for enemy attacks is good game design. There is no arguing that. Just like there's no arguing that a lot of Warframe's attack telegraphs leave much to be desired.

Regardless, you've evidently already made up your mind on the subject, so I'm not going to waste my time talking to a brick wall. Don't expect any further responses.

[-SicMundusCreatusEst-]

If you want a challenge, you need an always adapting intelligence that can freely move in unpredictable ways. That's pvp for you. Who would seek challenge in a game where the enemy Is a bot? 

[Corvid]

9 minutes ago, -SicMundusCreatusEst- said:

If you want a challenge, you need an always adapting intelligence that can freely move in unpredictable ways.

No, you just need an enemy that can't be switched off. Not everyone enjoys PvP, and not everyone is looking for the type of challenge that PvP provides (because yes, PvE can be made challenging, in a different way).

[DebrisFlow]

On 2020-07-03 at 6:58 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If you want more than stat tweaks like the steel path mode, if you want this game to be "balanced" and "challenging" but you don't want cheese tactics to be viable or enemies to just be bullet sponges DE would have to rework practically the whole game to make that happen.

The conclusion seems exaggerated. Instead of reworking everything why just not working on new innovative game modes that can go beyond the classic shallow jump-and-shoot? DE certainly has the sandbox material to do that, but for some reasons they think copy-pasting mobile defense everywhere is the way. Disruption i.e. is very well received, and the reason is that it is not only jump-and-shoot, but requires active search and tactical division of the area to cover between team mates. If you can provide a game mode where killing everything as fast as possible is NOT the answer you don't need to nerf loved OP warframes and weapons, neither to spongify enemies. 

Leave the jump-and-shoot missions there as a tutorial, then add truly new game modes as challenge progression.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2020-07-03 at 2:37 PM, (XB1)ONI Prowess said:

wrong, raids in destiny were never difficult at the tactical level, they were difficult at the strategic level of getting 6 people to all do the exact correct thing at the exact correct time. raids were difficult because the design of them was to introduce specific complicated mechanics and mechanisms and NOT TELL the players how to complete them.

it was never "oh darn those enemies were just so smart"

it was ALWAYS "timmy didn't get back to the bubble before the duration ran out and now the insta fail mechanic triggered"

ALWAYS, one person messed up on something, one person didnt stand on their plate, one person didnt shoot the right button, one person moved out of order.

 

thats why raid groups always want people that have done them, because when you know them they are trivial, months down the line and people zerg through them because once the mechanics are known there is no more difficulty. 

 

Not entirely true.  Some raids are more combat focused and some are more mechanical execution based.  Fails happened either because you couldn't execute when you needed to or your gear wasn't up to snuff.  The person you were quoting is emphasizing player choice.  The content is essentially designed for specific types of players.  Warframe's design is more fluid and less clear cut.  How a mission goes is far more dependent on you as a player rather than the specific mode you chose. 

[(PSN)Astralwanderung]

They prefer making missions that are very easy but must be done 24905701 times to get rewards and make you either hate the game or spend money and hate the game, rather than mission that would be fun and challenging, making you love the game and wanting to support it.

It's just easier and brings more cash.

[Acos]

There's a difference between challenging and engaging, and frankly, I don't think this playerbase can handle being too engaged. Ropalolyst, as an example, would be a dungeon 2 or 3 boss in a Zelda title but our playerbase seems to consistently struggle with anything more complicated than "Shoot big guy with gun". 

I'd prefer Warframe to lean more casually in general, but it still needs to be engaging to play or it ventures into boring. Pressing 4 to clear a room is boring. Shooting an enemy in the head for more damage is engaging & rewarding. 

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

I'm fine with the content. Im fine with every nerf or buff. 

At this moment,  all frames have the ability to compete in all content. Some work a bit harder than others. 

The challenge is figuring out the mechanics of the mission you are doing. Once that new gloss wears off and you pretty much know what to do,  it becomes a breeze. You can pay to quickly make a powerful build which makes it even easier.

New players have the challenge. Old players have the routine. Not much can be done to change that. 

Warframe can't throw enough stuff at an older player to reignite the challenge.  Players can say what would be better but none of that stuff is going to make older players sweat or think harder. All our mods work on everything new. We have tons of potatoes and forma. Update dropped on xbox, I have all the new stuff. Everything forma 3 times , potatoed, slotted out already. Though much of it going straight to the shelf just like kuva weapons.

They almost have to cater to new players.  

I mean I'm not spending any money. Sitting on 5k plat with nothing to spend it on. 120 rivens , only using 3. Crap ton of primes, arcanes and event items. If I need more I have plenty to sell at whatever price anybody wants to pay, I received it all for free. There's always 1 or 2 old heads like " I spend money". Truth is we don't need to spend.

 I continue to play because it's fun and it updates regularly. I'll follow a rank 7 around , let my bot rack kills and wipe the map if the low levels are having trouble with an area. The scenery is very nice, I like looking at the walls and out the windows.

Protea is bae. I'll run her till I'm tired, then play something else till next update like most of us older players.

I just don't see what they could possibly do to make me say "that was hard".

Game like Diablo are extremely brain dead. Nothing but bullet sponges. It's the EXACT SAME content on repeat. Enemies take more damage and deal more damage. From lv 1 to10,000+. Exactly the same, no challenge.

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2020-07-03 at 1:37 PM, (XB1)ONI Prowess said:

wrong, raids in destiny were never difficult at the tactical level, they were difficult at the strategic level of getting 6 people to all do the exact correct thing at the exact correct time. raids were difficult because the design of them was to introduce specific complicated mechanics and mechanisms and NOT TELL the players how to complete them.

it was never "oh darn those enemies were just so smart"

it was ALWAYS "timmy didn't get back to the bubble before the duration ran out and now the insta fail mechanic triggered"

ALWAYS, one person messed up on something, one person didnt stand on their plate, one person didnt shoot the right button, one person moved out of order.

 

thats why raid groups always want people that have done them, because when you know them they are trivial, months down the line and people zerg through them because once the mechanics are known there is no more difficulty. 

 

The raids were kinda fun but it could be astronomically frustrating at times. I dont mind losing or getting wrecked but it always felt like how skilled I am didnt matter that much because what you just said, somebody triggered the instakill mechanic for the whole team.

On 2020-07-03 at 12:27 PM, Xaero said:

So, in a game where you only need to kill fast there's no need to have every tool kill fast? That's like saying "there's no point in having only planes and helicopters in aviasimulator, let's have a boat".

Thats not what I said. I said frames shouldn't be "too similar". I wouldnt want to buy a flight sim where every plane is a 747.

On 2020-07-03 at 12:34 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

Future vision? You mean strategy? The idea that a player should just blindly waltz into every room annihilating everything is why enemies are constantly nerfed. 

 

 

I do think DE has a habit of over nerfing enemies.

On 2020-07-03 at 12:34 PM, kevoisvevo said:

You have a good point. Remove mesa's auto-aim and give it more manual feed like ash and she would still be an amazing dps frame. Remove her shatter shield and she would still be an amazing glass canon dps. But since she has amazing dps, amazing tanking ability and autoaim to boot. She becomes the meta is almost all the squads.

There are other warframes that can compete with mesa as is and any of those changes would slam her into the ground. 

On 2020-07-03 at 1:05 PM, Corvid said:

There's a middle ground between "I need to keep in mind every single possible combination of enemies that might appear at any time and from any angle in this mission" and what you describe. Ideally, gameplay would be designed so that a reasonably attentive player could be expected to clear a given encounter on their first attempt, but a reckless one would get squashed. Personally, I'd say a good place to start with Warframe would be giving enemies clear telegraphs and ways to negate our CC. Others may disagree.

Strategy comes from enemies that give you the opportunity to respond in the moment, rather than pre-empt in the Arsenal screen. Warframe's problem is that most of its "threats" come from hitscan, homing and AOE attacks, which often come out without warning, from enemies that don't have a notably different silhouette from their peers. Which means that once levels scale high enough, there is no reasonable way for a player to respond to them. And since the maps are randomly set up, there is no guarantee that you'll actually be able to use the geometry to your advantage.

The old Ballistas, for instance, were basically set so that if one spawned at a high enough level, they could kill you instantly with no warning. That's not challenge, it's a dice roll. While I think they were somewhat over-nerfed (thanks to their laser sight acting more as an indicator of who they were targeting rather than an actual telegraph of where the shot was going to go).

The old Manics often get dredged as an example as well, but what most don't seem to realise is that their damage output wasn't what people were bothered by. They were melee units with mostly clear . Instead, it was the combination of being able to cloak and teleport, having excessively long periods of invulnerability, and health regeneration (which, mind you, they still had while both invulnerable and invisible). The result was an enemy that you had a very real chance of being literally incapable of killing, if the AI decided to trigger its I-frames and teleport away to heal every time you drew a bead on them.

OK, pray tell, what exactly am I supposed to learn about an ancient spawning right behind me and immediately downing me with Toxic Screech?

Because when RNG is put in charge of both enemy type and placement, these are the kinds of scenarios that become distressingly common in the player's experience.

When you make untelegraphed damage spikes the means by which players get downed, that's not a challenge. For instance, the Ropalolyst's hand lasers. Despite them being a 1-hit-kill against most frames (2-hits now that shield gating is in place) even when built for survivability, my issue isn't that they have such a high output. It's that the shots have an invisible AOE that matches neither the targeting laser nor the appearance of the attack itself.

This. 

[(PSN)Yggranya]

In a game like this, any "difficulty" is impossible because there is no combat system. Try to melee stalker, get stun-locked, die. Shoot stalker in the face point blank with tigris prime, he stands there like he got some massively long and thick metal pipe up his ass, nothing flinches you after that. Would need some proper combat system to get anything other than more health and damage. Standing there shooting an enemy in the face for half an hour is not difficult, it's boring. Getting one-shotted is not difficult, it just sucks. Extreme examples i know, but appropriate.

[IceColdHawk]

On 2020-07-03 at 8:25 PM, Corvid said:

Last I checked, game balance wasn't based around the player having future vision.

Last I checked, DE doesn't restrict their players from paying attention to their surroundings.