what happened with the fun in video games?

[Aldain]

Fun is both for better and worse a relative thing.

For example, some people enjoy being an unkillable roving death ganker who purposely only goes out of their way to smurf against low level players in things like Dark Souls.

Others get immense enjoyment trolling forums with various degrees of -clem-posts and or insulting people with reckless abandon.

And then there's psychopaths like me who like Mario Party, the worst of the lot.

[vegetosayajin]

[HoustonDragon]

On 2020-07-04 at 2:35 AM, WH1735S0W said:

I find Warframe fun, why don't you? If you are referring to the grind I personally find that fun. Since it often involves overcoming a challenge. Once you get the thing you were grinding for you feel like a real chad.

 

I do gotta ask, what are you grinding for?

Agreed. It all depends on what YOU as a player are looking for. Every MMO has notably a lot of grind solely to ensure players keep playing. Personally, I've been focused on building the bulk of the weapons from the Dojo Labs and Market, and also burning through all the Zaws, Kitguns, and K Drives at the moment for the extra mastery. Also going back and farming up all the "easy" Warframe components, and then working on the more challenging ones. If they are too tedious, then it becomes a question of whether to worry about them or not.

 

There is frankly a TON of stuff in the game if folks tend to dig a little deeper beyond just the surface gameplay. There's a lot of lore, decorations, customization, and other stuff to be found and explored. If someone's goal is to get to MR 29 immediately, they're gonna be super frustrated trying to do everything all at once. Pace yourself, people, and figure out what you find enjoyable.

[PookieNumnums]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I literally used the word “everything” so that would include cosmetics. I never specified weapons and frames so maybe work on your reading comprehension. If you could easily grind every item in the game there would be nothing left to spend plat on, that was the point I was making.

Also last I saw the most commonly bought item with platinum was the 3 Forma bundle, for whatever that’s worth’s 

Since the amount of cosmetics you have to grind for is a fraction of the cosmetics that exist perhaps you should work on your comprehension. 

Theres what... 

Only the lich ephemera, orb mother, and stalker ephemeras? 

Meanwhile there are tons of armor sets, syandanas, operator cosmetics etc. 

Like i said, theyd just focus even more on cosmetics. 

So even if you could easily grind out every grindable item, you would still have a slew of cosmetics. That, was the point i was making.

Nice effort though. 

[PookieNumnums]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

But those games arent really random though.... atleast not in person....

If i had a bad hand... you would know it and would bankrupt me pretty quickly. I cant bluff to save my life.

 

If you have a bad hand and youre still playing, you probably deserve it. Only something like 1 in 11 hands "hit" so really even though its texas hold em youre playing texas fold em

 

Playing hands that have very little strength is a great way to go broke. 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

16 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

Since the amount of cosmetics you have to grind for is a fraction of the cosmetics that exist perhaps you should work on your comprehension. 

Theres what... 

Only the lich ephemera, orb mother, and stalker ephemeras? 

Meanwhile there are tons of armor sets, syandanas, operator cosmetics etc. 

Like i said, theyd just focus even more on cosmetics. 

So even if you could easily grind out every grindable item, you would still have a slew of cosmetics. That, was the point i was making.

Nice effort though. 

You’re still just skipping over my point of “if EVERYTHING was easily obtainable through grind.” In this scenario there are no plat-only cosmetics because EVERYTHING is grindable.

Just to play along here, I still think DE would suffer greatly if the only thing they could make money on was cosmetics. It might be their biggest money maker (I don’t even know that it is but it seems like a fair assumption) but it’s not their only one. Some players don’t care at all about that stuff. They need prime access and things like potatoes that are necessary but can’t be farmed easily to generate those plat sales as well. Really feels like you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing, I don’t know how you can deny that a F2P game needs to push players to spend just a little bit.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, PookieNumnums said:

If you have a bad hand and youre still playing, you probably deserve it. Only something like 1 in 11 hands "hit" so really even though its texas hold em youre playing texas fold em

 

Playing hands that have very little strength is a great way to go broke. 

Well thats kinda dumb.... whats the point in playing Poker if you dont Bluff ? Thats the whole point of Poker... to swindle everyone right out of their money

 

[PookieNumnums]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

You’re still just skipping over my point of “if EVERYTHING was easily obtainable through grind.” In this scenario there are no plat-only cosmetics because EVERYTHING is grindable.

Just to play along here, I still think DE would suffer greatly if the only thing they could make money on was cosmetics. It might be their biggest money maker (I don’t even know that it is but it seems like a fair assumption) but it’s not their only one. Some players don’t care at all about that stuff. They need prime access and things like potatoes that are necessary but can’t be farmed easily to generate those plat sales as well. Really feels like you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing, I don’t know how you can deny that a F2P game needs to push players to spend just a little bit.

I wasnt. To clarify i was speaking in actuality, whilst you were speaking hypothetically. That was not clear in your original statement. 

I thought you meant "everything that can actually be obtained in game through grind" not "if everything we have to buy was obtainable through grind" 

Glad we are on the same page. 

 

As for my opinion, if the game is good and the devs make players feel cared about, players will spend either way. Which is why me and many of my clan members and friends in warframe have spent excess of 1k in the game over the 7 years we have played. 

[PookieNumnums]

19 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Well thats kinda dumb.... whats the point in playing Poker if you dont Bluff ? Thats the whole point of Poker... to swindle everyone right out of their money

 

Ive played a lot of it and i can tell you that what youre saying is only partially true. Its not to swindle people out of their money. Its to let them make poor choices while minimizing your chances of monetary loss by playing the best hands in the best situations possible. 

And, to add to that, bluffing isnt just making people think you have "the nuts" i.e. the best hand, its also letting them think THEY have the best hand when they dont, when its impossible, or when the chances are very unlikely. 

A player may act unsure of their hand after realizing they have the or close to the best hand possible for that round based on multiple factors but mainly the cards in your hand, on the table, and also based on how others are playing that round. Its also about taking advantage of player choices like, for example, raising the bet as player in last position after people have put more than the minimum bet to play in "the blinds". 

That is often used to a) get more money in the pot before the next hand, and b) to get people with weaker hands out of the round thereby forfeiting their money. 

There is a lot more than just "bluffing". 

In fact. If you watch a poker tournament youll see that most players dont bluff. If they dont have a good hand they fold. If their hand is weak they dont call bets. 

 

If you think its all about bluffing i can see why youd anticipate failure at it. Its really about playing smart, with a hint of manipulation. Not playing based on the hope that you can convince someone to fold. Because, that only leads to loss. Players with actual hands are gonna call you. And some call anyway because they have a habit of chasing. 

[--K--Sharkfin]

I grew older.

I cared more on "making fun" than "just having fun".

...

I will never be the one again who could spend a day on mini games.

Or the one that bury 10k bones in varrock west bank everyday.

[Alexcavalera]

21 hours ago, Lutesque said:

But those games arent really random though.... atleast not in person....

If i had a bad hand... you would know it and would bankrupt me pretty quickly. I cant bluff to save my life.

 

Come to a casino whit me ,and i will show you the Luck factor...Its really a factor there ( 49% luck/ 51% Skill)

 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

18 hours ago, PookieNumnums said:

I wasnt. To clarify i was speaking in actuality, whilst you were speaking hypothetically. That was not clear in your original statement. 

I thought you meant "everything that can actually be obtained in game through grind" not "if everything we have to buy was obtainable through grind" 

Glad we are on the same page. 

 

As for my opinion, if the game is good and the devs make players feel cared about, players will spend either way. Which is why me and many of my clan members and friends in warframe have spent excess of 1k in the game over the 7 years we have played. 

Fair enough. I was definitely speaking hypothetically and it was kind of a silly hypothetical just to prove a point that it failed at proving, so I’ll just take a lap on that one.

Back to the monetization topic though, you have to consider that not everyone is going to spend money the way you and your clan mates do. I’m happy to spend money on WF to support the game and the devs, but I’ll never drop my hard earned money on optional cosmetics. I don’t have the time to invest in trading so I always just buy slots, and I will also buy the occasional potato or prime part that I’m having trouble farming.

Basically I’m only going to spend my money on things that are necessary (if it’s needed for mastery I consider it necessary) and I’d wager a lot of players feel the same. Cosmetics are a huge cash cow no doubt, I just don’t think DE could survive on optional cosmetics alone. Just my opinion though of course.

[Teridax68]

There was this recent interview Quiette Shy did with Rebecca where they discussed the topic of "hate-playing" Warframe, and the conclusion there was that there was bound to be some players who would hate-play the game regardless of circumstances. However, the answer was mainly framed as a question of human nature, when in practice I think Warframe is rather deliberately constructed to make players play it, whether or not they enjoy the game: daily login bonuses, FOMO-inducing limited-time events, layers upon layers of grind, and a reward system built almost entirely upon extrinsic incentives all contribute to an environment where the player is made to play for reasons other than inherent enjoyment of the game, and so for as long as possible. It should therefore not come as a surprise when people end up hate-playing the game, because that is by design in a game built to make players play whether or not they're enjoying themselves. The problem, of course, is that this inevitably induces negative word-of-mouth when players complain about how they're no longer enjoying a game they're still being compelled to play, and in the worst case causes burnout, both of which negatively impact on the game's longevity as increasingly more people show dissatisfaction with the game regardless of the quality of its actual gameplay.

Worth mentioning as well is that this kind of problem appears regardless of how fun a game is intrinsically: Warframe I think is a genuinely enjoyable game, as its core gameplay loop is incredibly solid, its parkour especially a joy to use, and its cosmetic customization one of the best out there as well. If it were to rely more on these aspects, and possibly some more generally intrinsic incentive scheme, it would likely become a lot more pleasant for many to play while still retaining longevity. Trouble is, its largely extrinsically-oriented incentives detract from that by having players focus on those extrinsic incentives, and thus treat all of the genuinely fun stuff as purely a means to an end, instead of what makes the game actually fun. As such, Warframe's design has a lot of anti-fun baked into it, despite truly fun gameplay, which is why it can feel all the more tedious at times. Those extrinsic incentives may have helped the game out at its inception, back when it had to gain lots of players in a very short period of time, but at this point I suspect it's doing more harm than good, as the grind makes it unappealing to newer players and drives older players to grow increasingly unhappy with it. For the sake of its long-term success, it would thus likely be better for it to start reorienting itself towards intrinsic incentives to play, and progressively phase out all the extrinsic incentives it's built up over time, particularly as recent attempts to add more and make them even grindier have consistently failed to contribute positively to the game's player count, even in the short term.

[Hypernaut1]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

There was this recent interview Quiette Shy did with Rebecca where they discussed the topic of "hate-playing" Warframe, and the conclusion there was that there was bound to be some players who would hate-play the game regardless of circumstances. However, the answer was mainly framed as a question of human nature, when in practice I think Warframe is rather deliberately constructed to make players play it, whether or not they enjoy the game: daily login bonuses, FOMO-inducing limited-time events, layers upon layers of grind, and a reward system built almost entirely upon extrinsic incentives all contribute to an environment where the player is made to play for reasons other than inherent enjoyment of the game, and so for as long as possible. It should therefore not come as a surprise when people end up hate-playing the game, because that is by design in a game built to make players play whether or not they're enjoying themselves. The problem, of course, is that this inevitably induces negative word-of-mouth when players complain about how they're no longer enjoying a game they're still being compelled to play, and in the worst case causes burnout, both of which negatively impact on the game's longevity as increasingly more people show dissatisfaction with the game regardless of the quality of its actual gameplay.

Worth mentioning as well is that this kind of problem appears regardless of how fun a game is intrinsically: Warframe I think is a genuinely enjoyable game, as its core gameplay loop is incredibly solid, its parkour especially a joy to use, and its cosmetic customization one of the best out there as well. If it were to rely more on these aspects, and possibly some more generally intrinsic incentive scheme, it would likely become a lot more pleasant for many to play while still retaining longevity. Trouble is, its largely extrinsically-oriented incentives detract from that by having players focus on those extrinsic incentives, and thus treat all of the genuinely fun stuff as purely a means to an end, instead of what makes the game actually fun. As such, Warframe's design has a lot of anti-fun baked into it, despite truly fun gameplay, which is why it can feel all the more tedious at times. Those extrinsic incentives may have helped the game out at its inception, back when it had to gain lots of players in a very short period of time, but at this point I suspect it's doing more harm than good, as the grind makes it unappealing to newer players and drives older players to grow increasingly unhappy with it. For the sake of its long-term success, it would thus likely be better for it to start reorienting itself towards intrinsic incentives to play, and progressively phase out all the extrinsic incentives it's built up over time, particularly as recent attempts to add more and make them even grindier have consistently failed to contribute positively to the game's player count, even in the short term.

It's far easier to come up with vague ideals of a perfect game that doesnt make people "hate play" it, than it is to come up with actual good ideas. 

The concept of "hate playing" just sounds ridiculous to me anyway. Warframe is very light with FOMO. There's very few things you can ever truly miss out on in WF. 

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It's far easier to come up with vague ideals of a perfect game that doesnt make people "hate play" it, than it is to come up with actual good ideas. 

Not really, given that there are in fact quite a lot of games out there that don't rely on psychological manipulation to make players play. Darkest Dungeon is but one example of a game that's immensely replayable without implementing any sort of FOMO or extrinsic reward loop, simply because the base game is itself designed to be enjoyable and entertaining even when played over and over again.

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The concept of "hate playing" just sounds ridiculous to me anyway. Warframe is very light with FOMO. There's very few things you can ever truly miss out on in WF. 

It may sound ridiculous to you, but it's something even DE acknowledges, so might as well get accustomed to the concept. If you don't think FOMO in Warframe is real, I also suggest you take a look at market price fluctuations every time Prime Access or the Prime Vault switches out, as those events are themselves designed to engineer artificial scarcity by making certain primes only accessible during certain periods of time. It's very much a part of its current business model.

[Invisibleaxeman]

It's about fun for the player, but it's also about monetization for the producer.   Sometimes these converge nicely, sometimes not.

[KaladinB4]

On 2020-07-04 at 7:03 AM, KimikoLastchance said:

i play this game for the way the movement and combat feels if i get board with the repetitiveness of trying to get a item i take a break and do something else another game or something else entirely. you don't have to spend all of your leisure time beating your head against a wall

Exactly.

Warframe, WoW, Animal Crossing, FIFA, Chess, whichever game it is. If you don't enjoy the game loop, then you will eventually not have fun.

Rewards during grinding are just one of the many incentives to keep playing. Loot/farming feels like you are always progressing, but it is a cycle of always something bigger, better, faster, cooler. But what are you going to do with that frame or weapon? Use it to keep playing.

Same goes with most other activities. If you want to enjoy the projects you work on, make sure you have fun during the process. If not you will burn out. The outcome is rarely worth a frustating process.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Fun is pretty subjective.

I still have ample fun popping in to just crack skulls a few hrs a day.

Difficulty doesn't = fun for everyone

[Felsagger]

On 2020-07-04 at 2:26 AM, (PS4)Androogear said:

remember when you got some spare time and play videogames to have fun? what happened with that? why everything have to be overcomplicated and frustating? I asked myself everytime I play warframe, a video game where you are not allowed to have fun if you want to have fun you have to surpass a dozen walls of BS. 

 

You do realize that DE is allergic to fun? 

 

[Felsagger]

Teridax was 100% accurate with these two sentences. 

"Warframe's design has a lot of anti-fun baked into it"

"that is by design in a game built to make players play whether or not they're enjoying themselves"

Let us explore these interesting and FUNDAMENTAL ideas because the truth lies around what these sentences say and what doesn't say. 

Definnition:

Anti-fun measures are known as XP gates, time gates acquiring gear, gear check gates and of course RNG. 

Definitions: 

Extrinsic game play: People play the game because is fun. 

Intrinsic game play: People play the game because the player wants item X. 

Let us analyze for a moment if War Frame where as satisfying in game play like Doom Eternal, Horizon Zero Dawn, Titan Fall 2 or God of War IV. If War Frame had a great game play then the player will be focused beating the game without engaging in any mechanics that induces a possible micro transactions. Remember there should be a balance between time of boredom and short cut attained by a micro transaction. If War Frame is completely designed around fun such like a hectic game play where enemy engagement is profound then the player will be ONLY playing for his or her fun without any wall that PUSHES him or tempt him to take a time shortcut. 

This game by design makes the player play where or not if the player gets satisfaction or not. This is the principle of the stick and carrot system. This is literally the market that DE carefully designed in the game. Took them years to master it with the idea of systemic downgrades and upgrades in weapons, the dispersion of interest and of course the changing Meta. DE understood to perfection the GAAS F2P game market. This was not an accident or an impromptu that was found randomly. These terms are academic based on the theory of behaviorism. Yes there is a profound research put into this mechanism. There are researches done on these fields of physiology of reward and the concept of programmed obsolescence.

Now we have to deal with a deeply tough question that is tricky in every corner. This question challenged the brightest minds in game design, Architecture, Engineering, Psychology among many other important disciplines including Art, Music and Theater. 

What IS fun?.  (We can write encyclopedias trying to answer such "naive" question)

Now we have the biggest problem of them all. What is fun? Is fun subjective or objective? is fun temporary or permanent? Is fun something that happens spontaneously or is a byproduct of planning and design? Combinatorics, probability and statistics are related to it? Is the combination of mathematics and physiology guilty as charged? 

"Fun is the joy of winning while mastering fair game dynamics. It is the positive feeling that emanates from the part of your mind (called the play brain) that is fascinated by the mechanical systems of play, and has a desire to overcome them."

"The play brain is the part of the mind that only sees a game in terms of levers and buttons, actions and reactions, and its only interest is in self improvement."

https://www.whatgamesare.com/fun.html#:~:text=Fun is one of six creative constants that apply to all games.&text=Fun is the joy of,a desire to overcome them.

Lets get scientific with few research papers:  

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333478380_How_to_Define_Games_and_Why_We_Need_to

How to define games and why we need to

 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221437158_Constructing_a_Player-Centred_Definition_of_Fun_for_Video_Games_Design

Player centered Definition of Fun for Video games Design. 

I encourage EVERYBODY to read these two papers. They are beautiful in every single way. These gives an insightful idea of what is a game and what is fun. I have them downloaded in my PC. They are free and available. 

 

War Frame is a game that is NOT designed for fun. If you want to get FUN you have to play for your fun through the time gates. Once the build is done and the meta attained then such satisfaction should be capped and limited otherwise the player will continue getting everything HAVING FUN. There should be an annoyance by design and some sort of boredom such that the player considers the micro transaction time short cuts. This is the basic psychology and the business of this game. 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Teridax was 100% accurate with these two sentences. 

"Warframe's design has a lot of anti-fun baked into it"

"that is by design in a game built to make players play whether or not they're enjoying themselves"

Let us explore these interesting and FUNDAMENTAL ideas because the truth lies around what these sentences say and what doesn't say. 

Definnition:

Anti-fun measures are known as XP gates, time gates acquiring gear, gear check gates and of course RNG. 

Definitions: 

Extrinsic game play: People play the game because is fun. 

Intrinsic game play: People play the game because the player wants item X. 

Let us analyze for a moment if War Frame where as satisfying in game play like Doom Eternal, Horizon Zero Dawn, Titan Fall 2 or God of War IV. If War Frame had a great game play then the player will be focused beating the game without engaging in any mechanics that induces a possible micro transactions. Remember there should be a balance between time of boredom and short cut attained by a micro transaction. If War Frame is completely designed around fun such like a hectic game play where enemy engagement is profound then the player will be ONLY playing for his or her fun without any wall that PUSHES him or tempt him to take a time shortcut. 

This game by design makes the player play where or not if the player gets satisfaction or not. This is the principle of the stick and carrot system. This is literally the market that DE carefully designed in the game. Took them years to master it with the idea of systemic downgrades and upgrades in weapons, the dispersion of interest and of course the changing Meta. DE understood to perfection the GAAS F2P game market. This was not an accident or an impromptu that was found randomly. These terms are academic based on the theory of behaviorism. Yes there is a profound research put into this mechanism. There are researches done on these fields of physiology of reward and the concept of programmed obsolescence.

Now we have to deal with a deeply tough question that is tricky in every corner. This question challenged the brightest minds in game design, Architecture, Engineering, Psychology among many other important disciplines including Art, Music and Theater. 

What IS fun?.  (We can write encyclopedias trying to answer such "naive" question)

Now we have the biggest problem of them all. What is fun? Is fun subjective or objective? is fun temporary or permanent? Is fun something that happens spontaneously or is a byproduct of planning and design? Combinatorics, probability and statistics are related to it? Is the combination of mathematics and physiology guilty as charged? 

"Fun is the joy of winning while mastering fair game dynamics. It is the positive feeling that emanates from the part of your mind (called the play brain) that is fascinated by the mechanical systems of play, and has a desire to overcome them."

"The play brain is the part of the mind that only sees a game in terms of levers and buttons, actions and reactions, and its only interest is in self improvement."

https://www.whatgamesare.com/fun.html#:~:text=Fun is one of six creative constants that apply to all games.&text=Fun is the joy of,a desire to overcome them.

Lets get scientific with few research papers:  

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333478380_How_to_Define_Games_and_Why_We_Need_to

How to define games and why we need to

 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221437158_Constructing_a_Player-Centred_Definition_of_Fun_for_Video_Games_Design

Player centered Definition of Fun for Video games Design. 

I encourage EVERYBODY to read these two papers. They are beautiful in every single way. These gives an insightful idea of what is a game and what is fun. I have them downloaded in my PC. They are free and available. 

 

War Frame is a game that is NOT designed for fun. If you want to get FUN you have to play for your fun through the time gates. Once the build is done and the meta attained then such satisfaction should be capped and limited otherwise the player will continue getting everything HAVING FUN. There should be an annoyance by design and some sort of boredom such that the player considers the micro transaction time short cuts. This is the basic psychology and the business of this game. 

Well I must be playing Warframe wrong then, because I have fun.

[Felsagger]

26 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Well I must be playing Warframe wrong then, because I have fun.

We are not brain wired the same way. It depends on standards and preferences. 

[(PSN)palebluelight]

The fun died with devs not caring enough to design mechanics and lazily adding rng to lengthen play time but also killing fun. there is no accomplishment waiting for rng it’s just a waste of time because it has nothing to do with how good a player you are or how optimized your build is. DE never honors the time you already put in all they do is ask for more.

[Spectre-8]

On 2020-07-04 at 9:26 AM, (PS4)Androogear said:

remember when you got some spare time and play videogames to have fun? what happened with that? why everything have to be overcomplicated and frustating? I asked myself everytime I play warframe, a video game where you are not allowed to have fun if you want to have fun you have to surpass a dozen walls of BS. 

Get in a helpful guild and leech , that's double the fun .

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

Warframe is a Free-to-Play game.  Which means micro-transactions.   Which means locking stuff behind grinds and stupid mechanics so people would rather buy the stuff than play to get it.   

I have played alot of free to play game on pc and console and DE does a pretty awesome job at balancing making money versus letting us have fun.   Go try another free to play game and see for yourself.  

I feel like Warframe could make even more money if they would sell 30 day individual boosters for 5$ each.  Then maybe they could drop the price on other things.. 

---------------------------

What killed fun in video games was the internet lol.  It made game makers turn stand alone games that had to be awesome into online services that just had to be refreshed every so often.  They started with subscription fees per month but apparently that didnt work out to well so they have transitioned to free to play.

In my opinion this has pretty much killed off the video game industry.   The amount of games per generation decreases and decreases and companies tank and squish together and tank.  Its sad.  Unfortunately the multiplayer games will probably never let it die out completely.   That gives non multiplayer companies a CHANCE to still make awesome titles..  

But when I was little there were literally a handful of new games every WEEK.  Now its down to a handful a year which you probably dont even care about because you spend all your time in one online game.