So the Bishamo armor...

[Tesseract7777]

Would love to see this implemented. We have patience, but of course, we would still love a status update. 

Even if it's just "No ETA guys, sorry, too busy, still plan too at some point in the future it just isn't a priority". 

Or something to that effect. 

[Loza03]

On 2020-07-09 at 6:57 PM, [DE]Marcus said:

For those Tenno that have already begun to walk The Steel Path, (looking at you @Ceadeus)  you may have seen the new Bishamo Armor Set in Teshin’s offerings. We see that people would like to mix and match between the male and female Operator sets, and we totally want that to happen.

We’ll have to make slight adjustments to the mesh of each variant Armor set for it to function properly on each operator model, and to avoid clipping when swapping between the pieces. We’re currently heads down on Tennocon prep, but we will explore this sometime in the post-Tennocon future!

Any updates? I've purchased my own set after the Steel Essence changes, but I'm more than happy to grind out and spend another round of Steel Essence for another if needs be.

[(PSN)ghost-sniper132]

Am 9.7.2020 um 19:57 schrieb [DE]Marcus:

For those Tenno that have already begun to walk The Steel Path, (looking at you @Ceadeus)  you may have seen the new Bishamo Armor Set in Teshin’s offerings. We see that people would like to mix and match between the male and female Operator sets, and we totally want that to happen.

We’ll have to make slight adjustments to the mesh of each variant Armor set for it to function properly on each operator model, and to avoid clipping when swapping between the pieces. We’re currently heads down on Tennocon prep, but we will explore this sometime in the post-Tennocon future!

So, the next Tennocon has been announced yesterday.

[vanaukas]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)ghost-sniper132 said:

So, the next Tennocon has been announced yesterday.

[(PSN)ghost-sniper132]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb vanaukas:

Thanks for the info ^^.

[touc]

On 2020-07-10 at 1:57 AM, [DE]Marcus said:

For those Tenno that have already begun to walk The Steel Path, (looking at you @Ceadeus)  you may have seen the new Bishamo Armor Set in Teshin’s offerings. We see that people would like to mix and match between the male and female Operator sets, and we totally want that to happen.

We’ll have to make slight adjustments to the mesh of each variant Armor set for it to function properly on each operator model, and to avoid clipping when swapping between the pieces. We’re currently heads down on Tennocon prep, but we will explore this sometime in the post-Tennocon future!

are you talking tennocon 2020 or tennocon 2021

[touc]

On 2020-07-10 at 1:57 AM, [DE]Marcus said:

For those Tenno that have already begun to walk The Steel Path, (looking at you @Ceadeus)  you may have seen the new Bishamo Armor Set in Teshin’s offerings. We see that people would like to mix and match between the male and female Operator sets, and we totally want that to happen.

We’ll have to make slight adjustments to the mesh of each variant Armor set for it to function properly on each operator model, and to avoid clipping when swapping between the pieces. We’re currently heads down on Tennocon prep, but we will explore this sometime in the post-Tennocon future!

are you talking tennocon 2020 or tennocon 2021

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

1 hour ago, touc said:

are you talking tennocon 2020 or tennocon 2021

at the time of that post it was just before the 2020 tennocon which happen august 1 2020 so it would be implied it was 2020 tennocon not 2021 since at the time DE would be all hands on deck on getting ready for tennocon 2020.

The person that linked the reddit post is more update to date info from DE raymond. pretty much its a side project so we could be waiting a while.

Edited May 13, 2021 by (XBOX)Dex Xean

[touc]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)Dex Xean said:

at the time of that post it was just before the 2020 tennocon which happen august 1 2020 so it would be implied it was 2020 tennocon not 2021 since at the time DE would be all hands on deck on getting ready for tennocon 2020.

The person that linked the reddit post is more update to date info from DE raymond. pretty much its a side project so we could be waiting a while.

I'm aware. It was a joke. I have no clue which reddit post you're talking about.

Here's hoping we do actually get it after 2021 tennocon tho, my fem operator is waiting for those pauldrons.

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

1 hour ago, touc said:

I'm aware. It was a joke. I have no clue which reddit post you're talking about.

Here's hoping we do actually get it after 2021 tennocon tho, my fem operator is waiting for those pauldrons.

I also cannot wait for them to make that operator armor looks universal also. The reddit post is the one where DE responded saying the person working on the armor is more focus on new primes and things then going back to do operator armors for both gender but he is working on it on the side when he can.

Edited May 13, 2021 by (XBOX)Dex Xean

[-Augustus-]

5 hours ago, touc said:

are you talking tennocon 2020 or tennocon 2021

Tennocon 2035

[SilentMobius]

On 2020-07-09 at 3:47 AM, Ceadeus said:

So when's the patch that makes the Bishamo armor not just a completely different set based on gender?  I don't know who was in charge of this particular design choice but they failed, miserably.  Why is the female Bishamo armor 10x as detailed as the male counterpart?  Why does the female Bishamo armor just have completely different pieces that are completely unrelated to gender traits like the radically different helmet?

Because they are based on Teshin (An old model) and the unnamed Female Dax we see in one of the cutscenes (A new Model). They made two sculpts for two characters (One a lot later than the other) and then later tweaked and split the parts for cost efficient content for operators.

[PollexMessier]

8 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Because they are based on Teshin (An old model) and the unnamed Female Dax we see in one of the cutscenes (A new Model). They made two sculpts for two characters (One a lot later than the other) and then later tweaked and split the parts for cost efficient content for operators.

Which does not make it okay.

[CerealPlayer]

5 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Which does not make it okay.

Um, why is it “not ok”?  I’m OK with it. You might not be. But that just seems to me to be a matter of personal preference. 
 

I’ll never understand the sheer level of entitlement needed to be believe that designers (graphic designers in particular, but any designer in general) owe you design that is to your liking. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by CerealPlayer

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

5 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Which does not make it okay.

It does make it ok, the problem is that Male operator armor is the basic Isaah one while female got the high rank Dax look. Males should've gotten armor similar to Teshin or Umbra not the low rank Dax look

[Wolfdoggie]

On 2020-07-08 at 10:47 PM, Ceadeus said:

So when's the patch that makes the Bishamo armor not just a completely different set based on gender?  I don't know who was in charge of this particular design choice but they failed, miserably.  Why is the female Bishamo armor 10x as detailed as the male counterpart?  Why does the female Bishamo armor just have completely different pieces that are completely unrelated to gender traits like the radically different helmet?

It's one thing to do this with frames that have a preset gender, but with our operators that are supposed to be peak customization?  I was so excited for the Bishamo armor and ready to grind my way to it, but now knowing that it's essentially genderlocked I've lost pretty much all interest.

why are most female warframes 10x more detailed than male ones? games are always biast against male characters cuz they think everyone wants to be a female. Altho when a game does cater a lot to males like FFXIV you get a tsunami of catbois. So the problem is we don't have equal effort. Hell, we just got another zombie frame that looks identical to Nekros for the males while next female is a hot petite model with a totally unique look to replace hydroid who was birthed into this world as a hideous malformed monster.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Wolfdoggie

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

why are most female warframes 10x more detailed than male ones? games are always biast against male characters cuz they think everyone wants to be a female. Altho when a game does cater a lot to males like FFXIV you get a tsunami of catbois. So the problem is we don't have equal effort. Hell, we just got another zombie frame for the males while next female is a hot petite model to replace hydroid who was birthed into this world as a hideous malformed monster.

It's not so much because they think everyone wants to be female (I mean that's part of it, as a female can play a female to RP, and a male gamer can play a female becuz they think they're sexy), but imo the bigger reason is simply that most game designers are straight males so they are going to make things they visually enjoy. 

More female designers and gay male designers would mean more attention paid when making male characters. Straight male game designers still dominate the industry with sheer numbers and they will make what they like looking at. 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Tesseract7777

[Loza03]

9 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

It's not so much because they think everyone wants to be female (I mean that's part of it, as a female can play a female to RP, and a male gamer can play a female becuz they think they're sexy), but imo the bigger reason is simply that most game designers are straight males so they are going to make things they visually enjoy. 

More female designers and gay male designers would mean more attention paid when making male characters. Straight male game designers still dominate the industry with sheer numbers and they will make what they like looking at. 

 

It's also been suggested that male fashion is more limited, culturally speaking. I mean, consider how much flak Baruuk got for having a 'man bun'. That'd boil over into the number of outfits available for masculine designs, doubly so in a game like Warframe where you're always at least one step removed from humanity in the first place.

[SilentMobius]

On 2021-05-14 at 8:38 AM, PollexMessier said:

Which does not make it okay.

Non-platinum cosmetics are not some platonic ideal, they are a compromise between time needed to implement and value to players. This was the sweet spot of time needed to value to the majority of players.

The choice was between what we have and nothing, not what we have and the version you wanted.

Maybe that dev will have the time to re-segment both sets because they like the idea and want to make a few of us happy (Many kudo's to them if they do), but hopefully it's plainly obvious that it isn't and won't be a priority for DE, and for good reason.

[PollexMessier]

On 2021-05-15 at 8:39 PM, SilentMobius said:

Non-platinum cosmetics are not some platonic ideal, they are a compromise between time needed to implement and value to players. This was the sweet spot of time needed to value to the majority of players.

The choice was between what we have and nothing, not what we have and the version you wanted.

Maybe that dev will have the time to re-segment both sets because they like the idea and want to make a few of us happy (Many kudo's to them if they do), but hopefully it's plainly obvious that it isn't and won't be a priority for DE, and for good reason.

It shouldn't be a priority, yes. But it never should've been a problem in the first place.
Anyone could've told them having a cosmetic that looks so drastically different depending on the sex it's applied to is a terrible idea. It seemed like they understood that up until this one.

The choice wasn't between this and nothing, it was between this, and those work hours going towards anything else. The sex difference didn't need to be a thing, they could've made an entirely different set of cosmetics, or done literally anything else with their time.
I guarantee if they just made the female set work for both and didn't even make the existing male variant, most people would've been plenty happy with it, and if they made only the male variant work with both and never did the female one, some people would've loved it and most probably wouldn't care except for the legs. Ether possible rout of one set with no gender differences would've been less work and more player satisfaction. There might've been a few players asking for the opposite style of dax armor as a result (big might), but no one would've been unhappy with it.

Instead they did this, and the only people happy about it are people who ether don't care what sex their operator is, are happy with the set that they got, or just dont care about the set as a whole which isn't really happy so much as indifferent.

And all this backlash is necessary, because if no one complained about it they'd probably start doing it more. Then it could evolve into a much bigger problem.

[SilentMobius]

On 2021-05-18 at 1:50 AM, PollexMessier said:

The choice wasn't between this and nothing, it was between this, and those work hours going towards anything else. The sex difference didn't need to be a thing, they could've made an entirely different set of cosmetics, or done literally anything else with their time.

You are mistaken, the work needed to adapt two existing meshes is tiny compared to the work needed for a whole new asset. Additionally, from what I've read about their art team they would never mesh-deform-adapt a female lowpoly mesh into some semblance of a male mesh (Because it gives low quality results) , at the bare minimum you'd need to adjust the sculpt, re-topo the sculpt, re-rig and re-UV (And maybe engine texture setup depending how automated their PBR pipeline is), which is one sculpt away from a brand new asset.

So yes, they had two assets that could be non-plat rewards for vastly reduced effort, so they went for it, given their history on cosmetics, the options were that or some other, much simpler cosmetic (Like another ephemera) or nothing.

So this was the right call.

This "backlash" is just telling them not to bother with stretch goal cosmetics.

Edited May 19, 2021 by SilentMobius

[Ceadeus]

On 2021-05-14 at 8:27 AM, CerealPlayer said:

Um, why is it “not ok”?  I’m OK with it. You might not be. But that just seems to me to be a matter of personal preference. 
 

I’ll never understand the sheer level of entitlement needed to be believe that designers (graphic designers in particular, but any designer in general) owe you design that is to your liking. 

 

On 2021-05-14 at 8:32 AM, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

It does make it ok, the problem is that Male operator armor is the basic Isaah one while female got the high rank Dax look. Males should've gotten armor similar to Teshin or Umbra not the low rank Dax look

Well... There is also something to be said for the whole idea of being a "games as a service" which literally survive on updating the game in accordance with player feedback.  So while we aren't "owed" anything by any means, it is by no means at all entitled to say "Hey, this choice seems really arbitrary and results in a really big letdown from this content.  Can we get it changed?"
 

On 2021-05-15 at 10:39 PM, SilentMobius said:

Non-platinum cosmetics are not some platonic ideal, they are a compromise between time needed to implement and value to players. This was the sweet spot of time needed to value to the majority of players.

The choice was between what we have and nothing, not what we have and the version you wanted.

This is the kind of outlook that causes games to spiral downward in terms of quality and upward in terms of price (not that I'm saying Warframe has but just speaking generally on the trend).  It hurts a game and its community 100x more for people to just blindly accept whatever they're given even if they're not happy with it under some weird pretext of "Well devs could've just not given us anything." or "They tried their best, if you don't like it then shutup and leave."  Like what other industry do we take this stance with where stuff can't be criticized simply because it was made?  Do you see a horrible movie and go "I better not see any bad reviews about this!  They could've just not made the movie and then what!?"  Do you eat horrible food and say "Well the chef tried their hardest so I'll eat the whole thing anyway!"  Like honestly what does encouraging poorly received decisions help?

Healthy criticism is fine.  Even toxic criticism helps, albeit when it becomes more about personal attacks it gets diluted.  At the end of the day, if a game operates on absolutely nothing but the designers' personal preferences/gut feelings and a bunch of yes-men who refuse to ever call anything out and censor anyone who tries, you're gonna wind up with a pile of crap that ultimately fails.  Again, I don't think Warframe is to this point by any stretch, I'm just pointing out how the mentality is way worse than someone having an unoptimistic comment about something.

 

[SilentMobius]

On 2021-05-27 at 1:27 AM, Ceadeus said:

Do you eat horrible food and say "Well the chef tried their hardest so I'll eat the whole thing anyway!"  Like honestly what does encouraging poorly received decisions help?

Firstly, I did not suggest "encouraging" anything, this is a strawman, I responded to you and to this:

On 2021-05-14 at 8:38 AM, PollexMessier said:

Which does not make it okay.

Which is nonsense, the armour is ok, it's fine, it's not ideal but it is better than the other option, which was no armour.

Now the rest

On 2021-05-27 at 1:27 AM, Ceadeus said:

It hurts a game and its community 100x more for people to just blindly accept whatever they're given even if they're not happy with it under some weird pretext of "Well devs could've just not given us anything." or "They tried their best, if you don't like it then shutup and leave."  Like what other industry do we take this stance with where stuff can't be criticized simply because it was made?

There is a difference between "I don't like this, I would much prefer to be able to choose, I'm not going to use this as a result", this is feedback, it's verifiable by DE (You know they can check the stats on use and acquisition right?) and the nonsense vitriol in this thread, like you here:

On 2020-07-09 at 3:47 AM, Ceadeus said:

 I don't know who was in charge of this particular design choice but they failed, miserably.

This is just insulting and frankly ignorant, and I mean that literally, you are ignorant of the detail of the task.

Also I told no one to leave, no one to change their opinion. I simply stated that their understanding of what was easy and what was hard was mistaken from my position as a professional software dev for the last 25+ years and an amateur 3D modeller for the same period ( Going back to Imagine and Lightwave on the Amiga) I can, and have done all of the tasks I've commented on (Sculpt, retopo, rig, adobe texture, tint masks, normal maps) I'm nowhere near as good or as fast as DE but I know what takes time.

On 2021-05-27 at 1:27 AM, Ceadeus said:

This is the kind of outlook that causes games to spiral downward in terms of quality and upward in terms of price (not that I'm saying Warframe has but just speaking generally on the trend). 

It is also the outlook that causes game to continue to operate, to balance the desires of the players with the reality of the ROI

On 2021-05-27 at 1:27 AM, Ceadeus said:

Healthy criticism is fine.  Even toxic criticism helps, albeit when it becomes more about personal attacks it gets diluted.  At the end of the day, if a game operates on absolutely nothing but the designers' personal preferences/gut feelings and a bunch of yes-men who refuse to ever call anything out and censor anyone who tries, you're gonna wind up with a pile of crap that ultimately fail.

False dichotomy, there exists a perfectly usable space to express your views without making ignorant guesses about what should have happened or outright asserting something is not acceptable or "failed miserably"

Oh and:

On 2021-05-27 at 1:27 AM, Ceadeus said:

Even toxic criticism helps

Is far from certain. In companies that rely on key individuals (Like Steve, Rebecca, Geoff, etc) for the aesthetic of their product, especially artistic endeavours. especially when they are financially independent and are mostly working due to love of the art they are producing, toxic criticism can torpedo the whole endeavour, resulting in key talent leaving.

I mean how would you feel if you went the extra mile to make something nice for players that was outside of the usual reward structure (How many operator cosmetics are non-plat?) because you love the game and could just about squeeze it in the time you had available because of asset reuse and the "feedback" you see is that it "failed miserably"?

And they still came to the thread to tell you they will try if they have time.

<clerks>Bunch of savages in this town</clerks>

Edited May 28, 2021 by SilentMobius

[Ceadeus]

On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:

Which is nonsense, the armour is ok, it's fine, it's not ideal but it is better than the other option, which was no armour.

 

Except this is false.  Because there's literally infinite options in between what we got, what we could have gotten, and not getting anything.  There exists a perfectly reasonable degree of common sense to say "Should we make this reward wildly different for different players based on completely arbitrary factors just for the sake of ease?" and the answer is pretty obviously no, that's a terrible idea.

On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:

There is a difference between "I don't like this, I would much prefer to be able to choose, I'm not going to use this as a result", this is feedback, it's verifiable by DE (You know they can check the stats on use and acquisition right?) and the nonsense vitriol in this thread, like you here:

Again.  Common sense does apply.  So yes, passing a simple check of whether or not making the armors wildly different was a good idea? (No.) We can definitively state that this choice was a failure because it negatively impacted the reception of the content.  Regardless of what percentage acquire or used the armor on launch the fact is there's clearly a very vocal group that did not do either specifically because of this choice giving us an easily definable loss in those statistics.  Simply because you don't like the wording doesn't make it not true, nor any less valuable as feedback, and if your only capacity to accept feedback is by formally written documentation then that just means you'd be a bad designer.

On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:

This is just insulting and frankly ignorant, and I mean that literally, you are ignorant of the detail of the task.

No.  I'm not.  Because nowhere did I say "Man this work sucks, whoever made these is trash and bad at their job." I said "Whoever decided to let this go through as two wildly different pieces of content failed that decision." because regardless of the amount of work that may or may not have been required (which they even stated they would have to "slightly tweak the meshes", not exactly giving the impression it's some insurmountable effort) the decision to simply delay this completely spontaneous addition could have been made to alleviate the disparity.  That was the failure.

On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:

Also I told no one to leave, no one to change their opinion. I simply stated that their understanding of what was easy and what was hard was mistaken from my position as a professional software dev for the last 25+ years and an amateur 3D modeller for the same period ( Going back to Imagine and Lightwave on the Amiga) I can, and have done all of the tasks I've commented on (Sculpt, retopo, rig, adobe texture, tint masks, normal maps) I'm nowhere near as good or as fast as DE but I know what takes time.

And yet again, nobody sat here and went "These are trash".  The work and effort required to either individual set or the adaptation of either set to the opposite gender is irrelevant to what people we complaining about.  I like both sets.  I think both sets have their own respective value and I appreciate them independently.  Doesn't change the fact that having them being wildly different based on something as arbitrary as operator gender was still a bad call.  That call has absolutely nothing to do with assuming it's an easy task or not understanding the work that goes into making them.  There was no timeframe set where people said "Oh they should have just completely remade the set the day after release!"

Also, yes, directly opposing someone's opinion as false is the same as telling them it needs to change.

On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:

It is also the outlook that causes game to continue to operate, to balance the desires of the players with the reality of the ROI

Keyword there being "balance".  So no, sitting there belittling others' feedback in some blind praise of the simple fact that an attempt is not what helps the game operate.  It's how you get games like Anthem where players get banned for walking a certain loot route.

On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:

False dichotomy, there exists a perfectly usable space to express your views without making ignorant guesses about what should have happened or outright asserting something is not acceptable or "failed miserably"

Except it's not a guess at all.  It's common sense.  If I tell you to run a race and if you get first I'll give you a nickle but if the other guy gets first I'll give him $5000 you're gonna be a little annoyed by that decision.

On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:

Is far from certain. In companies that rely on key individuals (Like Steve, Rebecca, Geoff, etc) for the aesthetic of their product, especially artistic endeavours. especially when they are financially independent and are mostly working due to love of the art they are producing, toxic criticism can torpedo the whole endeavour, resulting in key talent leaving.

I mean how would you feel if you went the extra mile to make something nice for players that was outside of the usual reward structure (How many operator cosmetics are non-plat?) because you love the game and could just about squeeze it in the time you had available because of asset reuse and the "feedback" you see is that it "failed miserably"?

You can appreciate the effort of something and still acknowledge that it missed its mark or "failed".  If you can't, you're probably not as good of a creator as you think you are and are instead more engrossed in your rose-tinted view of your own works to accept the reality of the audience it's being made for.  You keep trying to make it sound as if we've told these people that they're failures at their careers or that they have no talent or something like that when the reality is we voiced our discontent with one abstract decision because it devalued the effort required for the content it was locked behind.  We literally said "Hey, this decision makes me not care about this part of the game you're trying to promote.  You should change that if that's your intent."

[SilentMobius]

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, Ceadeus said:

Except this is false.  Because there's literally infinite options in between what we got

You are mistaken, There is finite development time and finite time that is going to be allocated to rewards, especially rewards that are out of the usual scheme, as I have already said multiple times. DE have demonstrated a latitude with the individual artists that allows them to suggest work (Like adapting assets for rewards) as long as it fits in the time allocated. And I know that, given what was done and what I know of the times involved and what the dev themselves said earlier in this thread that the options were, what we got or some other, much simpler from-scratch cosmetic, what you wanted was not an option.

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, Ceadeus said:

Simply because you don't like the wording doesn't make it not true, nor any less valuable as feedback, and if your only capacity to accept feedback is by formally written documentation then that just means you'd be a bad designer.

Again, you were being rude and are creating a strawman to cover for yourself, it's pathetic.

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, Ceadeus said:

No.  I'm not.  Because nowhere did I say "Man this work sucks, whoever made these is trash and bad at their job." I said "Whoever decided to let this go through as two wildly different pieces of content failed that decision." because regardless of the amount of work that may or may not have been required (which they even stated they would have to "slightly tweak the meshes", not exactly giving the impression it's some insurmountable effort) the decision to simply delay this completely spontaneous addition could have been made to alleviate the disparity.  That was the failure.

Again, false dichotomy. "this is insulting and I didn't say that, therefore.." I stand by my statement you were being insulting and ignorant, and you are doubling down and it's pathetic.

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, Ceadeus said:

Keyword there being "balance".  So no, sitting there belittling others' feedback in some blind praise of the simple fact that an attempt is not what helps the game operate.  It's how you get games like Anthem where players get banned for walking a certain loot route.

As you have demonstrated you have no idea what balance is. Again with the strawman, I've offered no blind praise nor indicated it's necessary.

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, Ceadeus said:

You can appreciate the effort of something and still acknowledge that it missed its mark or "failed".  If you can't, you're probably not as good of a creator as you think you are and are instead more engrossed in your rose-tinted view of your own works to accept the reality of the audience it's being made for. 

Ad hominem, it's like your entire playbook is fallacies 101.

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, Ceadeus said:

We literally said "Hey, this decision makes me not care about this part of the game you're trying to promote.  You should change that if that's your intent."

You literally said it was a "Miserable failure"

Literally nobody stated your quote anywhere in this thread.

You are quite clearly not interested in anything productive so I'm going to mute you now.

Edited August 4, 2021 by SilentMobius