DE if Steel Path "Is NOT Endgame" then WHAT is, and how many more years until we have it?

[Hypernaut1]

I dont think WF can have an "endgame" Its a game with horizontal progression. A Sandbox. DE doesn't want to create an activity thats vastly more important than the others, 

[Lutesque]

Fashion is End Game...

[CortiWins]

Am 24.7.2020 um 03:42 schrieb Hypernaut1:

I dont think WF can have an "endgame" Its a game with horizontal progression. A Sandbox. DE doesn't want to create an activity thats vastly more important than the others, 

And the game is far too imbalanced for that. Every time something is slightly challenging, everyone will want to use the one meta that cheeses it again. Warfame is not Destiny 2 with its tighly controlled damage numbers. The idea of an endgame where players have challenging content for small progress over a long time won't work with warframe in its current state. It would need so much streamlining in all aspects, it would be a different game.

[Rage_Inducer]

I'd argue Steel Path is endgame since you need to either have a serious weapon setup with a frame that can survive there or extensive knowledge of the game to make do with less than ideal weapons.
What Steel Path isn't is GOOD endgame content because it doesn't have anything really worth coming back to.
Arbitrations fall in the exact same category for the exact same reasons.

DE can't challenge us with numbers because warframe powers are too good at disabling enemies, letting us deal with anything.
I've only really spotted exactly 2 threats to our ridiculous damage outputs: Nullifiers and Arbitrations drones, nobody's favorite enemies.
They're challenging because they prevent us from immediately shutting down the world.

I've seen people asking for these 2 to be removed while simultaneously asking for more "challenge" so perhaps they're not ideal.

The only other thing left is "mechanical challenge" much like raids used to be, less focused on your ability to kill things and more focused on your ability to do what must be done at the right time. Heart of Deimos could potentially be a raid.
Challenging one's knowledge and coordination over the damage output could be the fabled "endgame" everybody wants
...unloess DE manages to make it not worth replaying through a not very appealing reward pool.

Back in the day, raids were as good as they were because in the end you'd get an arcane, it was the only way to get arcanes and thanks to Scarlet spear, everybody now knows that they were worth grinding for. If raids ever come back, they have to have something only they can award, something on par with what arcanes used to be.

[Tyreaus]

What's "endgame"? Is it challenging content that will always be at the end of the player's progression path? That seems to make sense, it is "end of the game". But does it become overwritten when a few new updates come along that move the progression path a little bit further along? If it's no longer "end of the game", then it - to me - stops being "endgame", just by definition.

If you want mechanically challenging content, sure - say as much. But I think a good part of the reason DE has said "this isn't endgame content" is because it isn't clear what would be "endgame content" as demanded by players. They even call the topic "nebulous".

[killerJoke66]

End game is generally referred in mmo's as a loop activity that has engaging gameplay and worth of  effort rewards(not cosmetics) for players that have  above average gear (doesnt have to be top tier only but for eficency players prefer top tier ones)  , for saying it seems like a long explanation but from a gamer's perspective its not 'really' that ambigious of what endgame is , also it doesnt have to be literally the 'end of the game' because of theres no better wording for the activity people use the term  end-game 

[killerJoke66]

In my little and humble opinion , De still can make/tune the current arbitrations as endgame if they really wanted but it seems like its not in their interest range , apparently trying to release more open worlds with flashy cinematics to lure unaware and innocent players (yes im jokin) meanwhile trying to please both casuals and challenge demanding players ---> is  a better way of cash grab ...  

Don't get me wrong i understand the stress theyre going through with trying to please most people but how many times we have to say its not gonna work lol , just to be clear i would be dead fine if they were to choose the casual-beginner side , players still have no idea whats the main lore today (in a complete and whole sense)  and especially for newer players they have no idea till natah quest ..  

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

On 2020-07-09 at 5:39 PM, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Theyre a good start. Raids give something challenging beyond artificially inflated levels. 

Ah yes, because standing on pressure plates is soooooooooooo challenging. 

[Tyreaus]

3 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

End game is generally referred in mmo's as a loop activity that has engaging gameplay and worth of  effort rewards(not cosmetics) for players that have  above average gear (doesnt have to be top tier only but for eficency players prefer top tier ones) 

This seems paradoxical: it has to be a loop activity, which I presume means that you keep running it indefinitely. But once you get the rewards, you don't run it any longer...?

Maybe that's me overthinking things. I have that bad habit.

Setting that aside, if that's the definition of endgame and everyone can agree on it (I think we'd need some kind of census on that to be sure), then of course Steel Path isn't endgame - it lacks the loop aspect. You run it once through, grind Steel Essence a bit, and that's it. Much of Warframe content has that replayability issue. Conversely, Arbitrations seem closer to endgame content - you almost always need Endo for new mods and that's "the place to go" for Endo, at least as the developers seem to intend it. But that doesn't count because it's not...engaging, I guess?

See, the core problem is that saying "x isn't endgame" or "x could be endgame", even with a working definition, doesn't get at what "x" is actually missing. For a concrete example:

3 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

De still can make/tune the current arbitrations as endgame if they really wanted

What does this mean? How can they tune arbitrations into endgame content? What do arbitrations need to be more effective? If it's because it isn't engaging, how can it be made more engaging? As this statement is right now, without clarification or specifics, it only says, "arbitrations could be better". That isn't helpful. Most creators of any sort of content assume their work could be better. What's helpful is how.

And I'm sure, even with that definition, there's going to be contention on what is or isn't, or could or couldn't be, endgame content. Like I said: when I hear "endgame", I think "an end loop; no more progress past this point". And people have different ideas of what would be engaging. One person's endgame content isn't another's. Just look at Rage_Inducer's post above, where he says that Steel Path and Arbitrations are endgame (but bad endgame), and compare it to what I quoted above, which strongly implies they aren't. Which is it?! [manic spazzing]

Putting it more simply: leaning on the "endgame" term creates more problems in trying to understand things than it solves. And, as I said, it's therefore no wonder they don't want to touch the term with a ten foot pole. (And not just for social distancing)

(That said: I recognize you've added specifics in an earlier post, so this isn't directed at you, more the general "we want endgame" public that doesn't include those specifics and adds nebulous "x was endgame and they nerfed it" statements.)

[killerJoke66]

End-game can mean lots of different things to others , granted. and the loot generally will be enough after a certain amount of time , i cant disagree on that too. That being said , regardless of what we understand of 'end-game' for certain amount of times some players got attached to long survival runs simply beacuse they could and wanted to see 500+ level mobs, some other players said it was  raids with its co-ordination puzzles , ive seen comments on first arbies was very close before they watered it down(this is not my original and personal thought btw just to be clear)  and others were saying first tridolons before everyone was abusing the sh*t out of meta choices was endgame .. it goes on and on and the game .. didnt end !??

What i'm trying to deliver is that players attach to certain loops of gameplay pieces if they feel like it would resemble 'a difference'  . I think we all can safely say what makes that 'difference' that feel out of it is end game (or a very close replica .. maybe just a glimmer sparkle of it .. the fully loaded tenno's wet-dream) 

(Also to clarify ; yes i mentioned that it was not my personal feelings or thoughts on 'first released arbitrations were almost endgame' , mine was ' if they could tune it differently they might make something out of it but i dont know what that could be either , just as a hint' ) 

[Pizzarugi]

On 2020-07-09 at 4:39 PM, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Theyre a good start. Raids give something challenging beyond artificially inflated levels.

Ah yes, the exclusive club for people who have social skills and are required to exercise it for coordination through challenges that need unnecessary levels of precision to complete or risk getting wiped and having to do the whole thing again.

That sure sounds like fun...

Nevermind the players who dislike the recruit chat and prefer just public missions or solo.

On 2020-07-09 at 4:39 PM, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Wars give clans and alliances relevance, and pvp will always be more engaging than AIs that literally charge into your bullets

If I want a game like that, I'd play Destiny 2. They put more emphasis on PvP to the point that quests you initiate in PvE force you to engage in it in order to complete. I'd rather not have Warframe befall the same problem of "kill a ludicrous number of players parkour bunny-hopping around a small arena to progress the quest", thanks.

On 2020-07-09 at 4:39 PM, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

I was hoping Sanctuary Onslaught would be a fun randomized dungeon mode. But its literally just use Mesa to kill. Same for Granum Void. Pointless

TRU!

Plus, (E)SO's very existence is nothing more than a mistake that serves to justify the existence of press-4-to-win frames. Now I can't escape the players who main Saryn/Mesa/Volt/Ember/Equinox/Khora who join my teams and mash one button all the way to extraction.

Revenant's so much better than Mesa at Granum Void, by the way. 😛

On 2020-07-09 at 4:39 PM, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

At the very least, give conclave a rework, dedicated servers, and good rewards. Make it on par with Destiny's Crucible and it will be worth playing

Let's please not. The game has integrated PvP into the game to the point that you HAVE to engage in it more than you'd like to just to complete some quests you found in PvE. I hate shooters where your efficiency boils down to who reacts the fastest rather than who can put the most bullets into someone while dodging. Both Warframe and Destiny 2 share this problem.

On 2020-07-09 at 4:39 PM, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

A human opponent offers infinite challenge, that the game is sorely lacking

That's true, but if I want a human opponent, I'd rather find it in a different game catered towards that like League of Legends or Destiny 2.