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Why is only melee weapons that are really powerfull in this "looter shooter"

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Melee is outright better because of the most basic concept of game design: Risk vs. reward.

Advantages of gunplay:

- Fighting from a relatively safe distance reducing frontline exposure risks.

Question: Assuming both guns and melee were in the same damage ballpark, how would melee compete when guns would give you the same damage plus a safe distance that minimizes exposure?

Answer: It can't.

The only way to make the frontline risk and the loss of range more enticing vs. the safety net of long-range gunplay is a damage ballpark and ceiling that compensates the added risk vs. gunplay.

My incentive to use melee over guns is that I don't have to aim nor reload. There's barely any risk in going melee range when we have so many tanky or healing abilities and shield gating and enemy derpy AI. Sometimes using melee is just faster than using guns with no risk, depending on which melee and gun you're using.

Edited by (PS4)lumen2ne1

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Nehra96:

2. Guns and weapons that can slay hoards get nerfed because of certain sections of vocal fans who think it ruins their fun (it may or may not be true, so idk)

I believe the reason people wanted the Bramma in particular nerfed is because of visual effects. It wasnt a great experience having a bramma fired directly at you. Luckily Steve teased a solution for future problems like that in the form of an option of ally effect intensity, similar to how you can turn down ally shawzin volume but keep your own audible for yourself.

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5 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Kuva Ogris will never work in this game because low fire rate high status weapons just dont work in this game. A whole lot of stats well spent on proccing really big impact and blast procs. You are grossly exagerating Bramma's range. Mapwide? What a joke

If I had the choice between pre-nerf Bramma and a good Melee weapon, I'd take the melee weapon every time. Bramma wasnt really taking away usage from other primaries. The alternative is just not using a primary at all because all other primaries suck. Melee weapons have the range (primed reach, fast movement), safety (blocking, aoe without self stagger) and damage (bloodrush, CO, weeping wounds, pure heavy attacks) to beat out guns by a long shot. Bramma could slightly compete in some situations.

The actual problem people had with the bramma was the effect spam, both visual and audio. That's why people wanted it nerfed.

Kuva Ogris can be a very fun, effective weapon.

Go look at pre-Nerf Bramma stat usage.

Like the kitgun issue prior, you really can’t argue against it.

S-Simulor was far more visually offensive and had the same issue.

And when players are moving through the map and basically wiping out everything in front of them and largely trivializing other weapon-play, yes, that is a map-wipe Weapon.

There is an argument to be had for the “power fantasy fun factor” of pre-nerf Bramma but it falls short by how badly variety and balance is affected.

 

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Silverback73:

Kuva Ogris can be a very fun, effective weapon.

Go look at pre-Nerf Bramma stat usage.

Like the kitgun issue prior, you really can’t argue against it.

S-Simulor was far more visually offensive and had the same issue.

And when players are moving through the map and basically wiping out everything in front of them and largely trivializing other weapon-play, yes, that is a map-wipe Weapon.

There is an argument to be had for the “power fantasy fun factor” of pre-nerf Bramma but it falls short by how badly variety and balance is affected.

 

Just looking at usage stats is bad balancing and ignores underlying issues. Catchmoon and Bramma werent really taking up other weapon's usage, they were competing with melee weapons. And no nerf to them will make things like the stradavar or the sicarus more viable because of their inherent lack of AoE, punch through doesnt fix that either. What those weapons need is enemies specifically designed for them and against explosive weapons.

Your definition of map wiping is accomplished by like half the melee roster with more damage and less self stagger.

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3 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Luckily Steve teased a solution for future problems like that in the form of an option of ally effect intensity, similar to how you can turn down ally shawzin volume but keep your own audible for yourself.

There are plans for this? i am not aware of this , can you provide a link or reference to it?

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Definitely agree with the OP, every single mission I just sprint through spamming R1 and everything in 20m dies instantly. Level 100+ enemies it's the same story. I really blame the amount of enemies on screen, far too many at all times to use a gun. It's so inefficient to shoot each individual enemy.

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15 minutes ago, (PS4)Yodunheim said:

Definitely agree with the OP, every single mission I just sprint through spamming R1 and everything in 20m dies instantly. Level 100+ enemies it's the same story. I really blame the amount of enemies on screen, far too many at all times to use a gun. It's so inefficient to shoot each individual enemy.

It's doable with Slow Nova and a sniper, like Vectis Prime, but probably still slower than just meleeing them, depending on the distance.

It's messed up that the method that takes the least skill is also the one that gives the best results, adding the Kuva Chakhurr was a step in the right direction imo. at balancing out precision weapons.

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Brahmma would be great in this sponge path, but guess what! DE killed it, now we need to use melee. 😄

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hace 15 horas, x_Xtr3m3_x dijo:

1: Really ........ 

2: "160% x2 with heavy attacks + 2x combo" says it all really don't it sunshine.

3: once again it seems you fail to understand this was not a direct comparison to what weapon i had in my ranged it was a general mindset but i see that escaped your "eagle eye" 

There's Simulacrum for a reason, don't come at me with that ass attitude, i don't need to understand anything because your comparison is biased in every single stupid way.

First of all you're pretending Viral+slash is good against whatever, and that's not the case, you're not gonna get more damage against Grinner armor with viral/slash than corrosive, and so it is against shields with toxin/magnetic. And the combo multiplier here is not the case for your counter-argument, but the fact that you're pretending to work out a Hunter munitions on a DPS assault-aoe rifle, AGAINST a high crit BURST melee, which are very F4cking different, and you're evading that fact. 

Same as you can't compare a rifle with a shotgun, they deal damage in a different way, for melee's you need to move and close the gap, and guns you need to aim and deal the damage straight-up, and you're overcomplicating things with your accuracy already. 

With this "mindset" of yours, you pretend to do ESO faster with the same Mag bubble and a "one-shot" melee, than a primary weapon, and you're gonna have a problem there.

Stop complaining about unbalance in such a stupid way, they will just shut down every goddamn investment other players do on melee ('cause all they know is nerfing), just because of these absurd comparisons.

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Pretty sure we're over the debate as to whether or not melee does more damage and why. People keep bringing up stuff like usability and risk/reward. To start off, melee weapons don't have to reload. They are AoE by default. They don't require aim. They are infinitely precise for no apparent reason (You can hit the crystal thingies without aiming at them, for example). They deflect damage passively. Primaries and secondaries generally have more range. Now, i'm not a rocket surgeon, but this doesn't seem to add up to fair.

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6 hours ago, Zentun. said:

Brahmma would be great in this sponge path, but guess what! DE killed it, now we need to use melee. 😄

How so? How did reducing the amount of explosions on over my screen in 1 shot kill it? They increased the radius of the remaining bomblets, so it's pretty much the same amount hitting 1 target

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31 minutes ago, Orblit said:

How so? How did reducing the amount of explosions on over my screen in 1 shot kill it? They increased the radius of the remaining bomblets, so it's pretty much the same amount hitting 1 target

Yes, but now you only have 5 arrows, and that is not enough in the steel path, even with carrier and ammo mutation.

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Posted (edited)

I want guns be stronger then melee weapons for the fact this sound like that "taoist" games for it sound like $##! everytime for I tried it and hate it for "power to trash what is good or something good" or "mix up morals" and same time got the weeb sword ppl lived by the sword and die by the sword.

Spoiler

gowasu-f-king-weeb-can-you-stop-fing-wee

 

Edited by ChaoticEdge

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11 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Just looking at usage stats is bad balancing and ignores underlying issues. Catchmoon and Bramma werent really taking up other weapon's usage, they were competing with melee weapons. And no nerf to them will make things like the stradavar or the sicarus more viable because of their inherent lack of AoE, punch through doesnt fix that either. What those weapons need is enemies specifically designed for them and against explosive weapons.

Your definition of map wiping is accomplished by like half the melee roster with more damage and less self stagger.

Yes and no.  

We can all use Melee and compete for kills at a very fast pace, even with Primed Reach.

Melee is the META but it is squad-friendly Meta...or squad “friendlier” if you want because Melee boat racing certain missions IS a thing.

Bramma AoE negated even that...as did S. Simulor.

AS DID CRIT-WHIP-SLIDE-MELEE...which is why THAT got nerfed.

For now, perhaps game design rules for current Warframe vs IRL needs to be examined a bit deeper when it comes to the weaker ranged weapons vs stronger Melee.

If primaries and secondaries were given equal killpower with range vs Melee, everything...and I mean EVERYTHING...from enemies to environments would need drastic changes.

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12 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Just looking at usage stats is bad balancing and ignores underlying issues. Catchmoon and Bramma werent really taking up other weapon's usage, they were competing with melee weapons. And no nerf to them will make things like the stradavar or the sicarus more viable because of their inherent lack of AoE, punch through doesnt fix that either. What those weapons need is enemies specifically designed for them and against explosive weapons.

Your definition of map wiping is accomplished by like half the melee roster with more damage and less self stagger.

This. Exactly this. 

Pre and post nerf Bramma are identical in damage. The damage itself was not nerfed. And it is not strong enough for Steel Mot. I know cuz I tried. This supposed game breaking gun just had to be nerfed cuz a lot of people were using it, NOT because it was endgame tier. The only endgame tier viable weapons are melee, and DE is too brain dead to admit this and fix it. 

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Hey man! I been playing since 2014ish? off and on i believe. I just wanted to say your complaint is valid, these guys are just forum trolls being contrarian and arent actually listening to you. They are taking your anecdotal evidence and trying to use it against you in the court of law using some really weird snake like lawyer tactics.

Since the nerf of synoid simulor and the tonkor, there hasnt been a primary that could keep up with red crit of death melee. The tonkor did what melee could at range, and the simulor could only do what melee did as Mirage. 

I still find hope in my weapons like Kohm, and what not, and you could argue that it strips armor quickly and takes anything out eventually, but when you have instant finishers and 5 billion red crits, it really doesnt matter what the Kohm can do, or what the Amprex can do, or what the opticor can do, what matters is... whats easiest and fastest to kill with?

I shake my head at DE sometimes.

 

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1 minute ago, MrZwitz said:

Pre and post nerf Bramma are identical in damage. The damage itself was not nerfed.

Actually the bomblets did get nerfed. They used to do 187 damage per bomblet, now they only do 57. DE was kind enough to not tell us.

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7 hours ago, ChaoticEdge said:

I want guns be stronger then melee weapons

If guns are stronger than melee, why would anyone run into the middle of enemies to get shot? Just press fire and they all dissapear. Also, considering how most people here are angry at DE for nerfing weapons that don't require aiming, i guess that most people don't even want to have to use them, just blast away. The playerbase has already proven they want nothing but the easiest way to get to the rewards, so melee requires you to move at least.

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Oh, and you get easy healing with melee too.

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Primaries are kinda trash, but I've known that ever since I tried a couple of disruption arbitrations (the modifiers there are cool for testing).
Secondaries hold up a little longer if they have slash but they also fall off at some point in terms of ttk.
That's all if you don't compliment them with a power for most cases.
Melee has always been the best and it could stand on its own, it's strange to me that people just now discover it.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

If guns are stronger than melee, why would anyone run into the middle of enemies to get shot? Just press fire and they all dissapear. Also, considering how most people here are angry at DE for nerfing weapons that don't require aiming, i guess that most people don't even want to have to use them, just blast away. The playerbase has already proven they want nothing but the easiest way to get to the rewards, so melee requires you to move at least.

No, if they are going have steel path and nerf our good old weapons that hasn't being OP but nerf it anyway pretty much asked for un-nerfing as it to be.  Same time yes it remind me that stupid Taoist game that rely on mythical weapons from animals because some how it was forging a weapon in their belly and dunno who spread these stupid weapons or some dumb stuff but in that game is a absolutely becoming a weeb. As again melee weapons are not always powerful then guns for yes we do have a gunblade to make it powerful but it is because it is a Part Gun that Blunder Bust Anything.  Seen players use the gunblade the fact is "More range" then the "Glaive" and more likely it seem to be useless to use the glaive in steel path mission as for that out beat the level amount of them.  Even thou the dev had "try their best" but seemingly the promise seem to the point un-meet it's goal pretty much it seems that they are struggling to keep up the paste acquire the lvl where it was pose to be in for many ppl see it as another temp of fail.

Edited by ChaoticEdge

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On 2020-07-13 at 4:00 PM, ChaoticEdge said:

No, if they are going have steel path and nerf our good old weapons that hasn't being OP but nerf it anyway pretty much asked for un-nerfing as it to be.  Same time yes it remind me that stupid Taoist game that rely on mythical weapons from animals because some how it was forging a weapon in their belly and dunno who spread these stupid weapons or some dumb stuff but in that game is a absolutely becoming a weeb. As again melee weapons are not always powerful then guns for yes we do have a gunblade to make it powerful but it is because it is a Part Gun that Blunder Bust Anything.  Seen players use the gunblade the fact is "More range" then the "Glaive" and more likely it seem to be useless to use the glaive in steel path mission as for that out beat the level amount of them.  Even thou the dev had "try their best" but seemingly the promise seem to the point un-meet it's goal pretty much it seems that they are struggling to keep up the paste acquire the lvl where it was pose to be in for many ppl see it as another temp of fail.

This is gibberish.

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49 minutes ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

This is gibberish.

It is only those you say it is rubbish but when you know melee weapons in real life is rubbish against arsenal of different type of weapons even against a tank, only a weeb will think their melee weapons is being the great mythical sword that believed it cuts everything even thou armor.  In warframe it may have it but it doesn't mean the dev won't nerf it as well.

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