The Steel Path: Inaros Prime 28.2.0 + 28.2.0.1

[-Kittens-]

No, it's bad. The tiberon is a useful gun and was a useful gun and a tiberon riven made it a beastly gun, and the kronen was slept on like #*!% because all people thought it was good for was macro spam, which is exactly not the way to have ever built it, and as for Zephyr, throw an Aoe weapon on her even back then and she would literally evaporate anything she hit and she was one of the few frames where power strength actually scaled to hit a like a truck. Zephyr was the reason the tonkor got nerfed. Enough said.

Inaros Prime package brings nothing new to the table. Zero. nada. bad. not meh, but outright #*!%ing bad, and frankly if we're talking real talk, the Karyst already hit like a truck, it just couldn't compete in any way with the Venka Prime; which ironically enough has been now obsoleted by the Karyst P.

[master_of_destiny]

1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

No, it's bad. The tiberon is a useful gun and was a useful gun and a tiberon riven made it a beastly gun, and the kronen was slept on like #*!% because all people thought it was good for was macro spam, which is exactly not the way to have ever built it, and as for Zephyr, throw an Aoe weapon on her even back then and she would literally evaporate anything she hit and she was one of the few frames where power strength actually scaled to hit a like a truck. Zephyr was the reason the tonkor got nerfed. Enough said.

Inaros Prime package brings nothing new to the table. Zero. nada. bad. not meh, but outright #*!%ing bad, and frankly if we're talking real talk, the Karyst already hit like a truck, it just couldn't compete in any way with the Venka Prime; which ironically enough has been now obsoleted by the Karyst P.

You have a pretty poor memory.  If not, it's selective.

 

At the time the Kronen was bad.  The reason it was bad was that it had small range, and the mods went by a multiplier not a base addition.  In that way, the Kronen hit well but couldn't be used in crowds because it didn't have the range to hit.  People didn't sleep on it, the heavy swords and more ranged melee was superior.  If it's unclear, we are talking about 2+ years ago and not current melee.  Once things were reworked the Kronen Prime was demonstrated to hit hard and be able to cover enemies.

 

The Tonkor interaction literally existed for years before DE decided to nerf it.  So we are clear, it was the combination of turbulence and the augment which allowed the Tonkor to fire a projectile a large distance and explode on any impact.  Look back to 2015 and it was in-game, with it not even being addressed until 2017.  If Zephyr was the cause of that "nerf" then please explain to me the interaction with the prime release.  I'll wait, but the gist of this is that DE couldn't even be bothered to change things until the prime.  If it isn't a thing to deal with for 2 years and change, and only gets addressed when the prime is kicked out of the door, then it really wasn't a priority.  If you're still pining for those days go pick-up a Kuva Ogris, enjoy a lack of self damage, and no need to be one frame with an augment equipped.

 

The Tiberon Prime does about 33% more damage than the Burston Prime.  Breaking down the numbers, Burston-36, Panthera-100, Tiberon-46.  The Tiberon has 2/5 disposition, and the Burston has 5/5.  If you're going to make any commentary please consider what you are competing against here.  The Tiberon is "beastly" only in the fact that you utilize 3 shots per trigger pull.  Logically speaking then, the Kohm will completely outstrip the Tiberon Prime.  I don't know where you're getting the thought that the Tiberon was anything but fine.  It was a middle of the line assault rifle, just like the Panthera.  It's going to be a common theme when we've got dozens of things in the assault rifle class of weapon.

 

Regarding the Zephyr+explosives....wow.  That's a great thought when you've got plenty of open space.  Again, 2+ years ago and self damage was a thing.  If you hit your tornadoes you died.  If the room was too small you died.  If the enemy ignored your turbulence you died.  If the enemy AoE damage was bigger than turbulence you died.  If the projectile was deflected down you died because it could effectively penetrate turbulence.  Zephyr is not a terrible frame, but she's got a lot of troubles.  Inaros is very good at staying alive and using finishers.  Neither is objectively a bad release, nor are they good.  Again, they're tofu.  Bland and tasteless, unless you surround them with something else.

 

 

Regarding the last bit of word soup.  What?  The thing Venka Prime does is have one higher combo multiplier.  The Karyst offers increased movement speed.  How in hades does one compare to the other?  If I'm looking for big multipliers, like with an exalted weapon, the Venka will be better.  If I'm looking for finishers I'll choose the Karyst Prime.  I don't exactly know how you have come to compare the two, as each has a niche.  My point regarding the Karyst is that there used to be a viable reason to blind then finish any enemy with Inaros and Covert Lethality.  The mod was changed to not do this anymore, so daggers aren't the high risk high reward weapon they once were.  Literally nothing has changed for the Venka Prime, and it's still the only choice in the game if you want the maximum combo multiplier possible.

 

 

In short, please try to remember the past without rose tinted glasses.  Also remember that DE didn't nerf Inaros so that the prime could be better.  This release is not a bad prime, it's just bland.  It's as bland as Zephyr was at the time of its prime.  I'm using her because I hope the same can be done with Inaros.  Changes to the game, such as a good augment or new mods, could see Karyst and Panthera Prime be good.  For now, they're just fine.  Not bad, not good, just the bare minimum to be something more than another skin set.

[butcher_l]

When will warframe support MacOS??????

[-Kittens-]

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

In short, please try to remember the past without rose tinted glasses

That would be you, actually, and your attempting to ignore base damage versus fire rate is incredibly obvious, and sorry but any argument where you mention the burston is right out the window, fullstop, not even going to waste the time or energy on that. Literal whataboutism.

And at the risk of elitism, I'm simply going to say your zephyr treatise lack ANY experience with using the character at all, with the right AoE weapon she was the de facto farming frame for high level mats and derelict rewards, period, which according your completely artificial and incidentally completely anecdotal paradigm resulted in instant death the moment she stepped on to the tileset, nevermind at least two content creators showcased exactly how and why she made three and four hour plus runs a thing.

[master_of_destiny]

1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

That would be you, actually, and your attempting to ignore base damage versus fire rate is incredibly obvious, and sorry but any argument where you mention the burston is right out the window, fullstop, not even going to waste the time or energy on that. Literal whataboutism.

And at the risk of elitism, I'm simply going to say your zephyr treatise lack ANY experience with using the character at all, with the right AoE weapon she was the de facto farming frame for high level mats and derelict rewards, period, which according your completely artificial and incidentally completely anecdotal paradigm resulted in instant death the moment she stepped on to the tileset, nevermind at least two content creators showcased exactly how and why she made three and four hour plus runs a thing.

 

You are really going to make such a wrong argument?  It's laughable, but definitely the elitist attitude you claim.

 

Let's dismantle the argument point by point, starting with the Burston.  Does your logic hold; spoilers, it doesn't.

Burston - 13.64 rounds/second, 54 shots in the magazine, 36 damage.  Tiberon - 7.38 rounds per second, 42 shots in the magazine, and 44 damage.  You argued about fire rate, and it was wrong.  You argued about the riven, and that's wrong.  You are more than welcome to argue about ammo, but the Burston is better in the mag and the same in total pool (540).

What might I have accepted as an argument?  Well, if you wanted to sound smart you'd have made note of critical chance, multiplier, and status.  The Tiberon has much higher crit (28% vs. 18%), but then you'd have to specify that your riven was required to get good chances at crit or some other combination of crit booster.  You'd also have to justify using a relatively low damage weapon type, and having absolutely garbage status chance (20% vs. 30%).  

So, the Tiberon is good if you can boost its critical chance.  So is every other gun.  It has poor status chance.  It has less ammo than the Burston, a weapon cited specifically because it is such a meh weapon that it should have forced you to ask exactly why I would cite such a thing.  

Unfortunately you've not understood any of this, and have made a bad argument.  Please take the loss, instead of arguing.  You tried to back your conclusions up with numbers, and failed to do any fact checking.

 

 

Regarding Zephyr, do the math.  Again, you missed the point.  Our area of effect weapons trigger off of contact with tornadoes, and have since the only rework she received.  Combine this with the mechanic where tornadoes move to your reticle, and it was easy to do self damage.  This isn't an anecdote, it's a fact.

Likewise, let's consider her turbulence.  It negates projectiles and redirects those with a travel time.  What doesn't it influence?  Enemy melee and AoE.  The range for turbulence is 3/4/5/6 meters.  All you need is a radius greater than that to damage you.  Let's check...yep, the Ogris has an AoE radius of 7.1.  It might take a minute here to fact check, but I'm pretty certain 7.1>6.  You're welcome to double check the math there though.

Let's also look at 3-4 hour runs in the game.  Is this an achievement?  Well, no.  Let's really ask about other frames.  Is the 3/4 hour run possible with other frames?  Yes.  I've seen Vauban, Nidus, Octavia, and a variety of other frames do so.  What does it require?  Well decent crowd control, resource control, and cheese.  When enemies can literally have millions of eHP it's not about how well you play, but how you exploit the systems.  Arguing this is stupid, because I've also seen regular Inaros runs this long (and Inaros Prime is actually better statistically).  You've started by arguing that Inaros Prime is bad, but if it can do the same thing as a "good" Zephyr Prime then it's hard to figure out your line drawn in the sand.

 

 

Perhaps you'd like to make another argument that is grounded in reality, and not something about how you feel.  I like Zephyr, but she's at best average.  I don't like Inaros, but saying the prime access is bad is severely missing the point here.  Inaros Prime isn't bad, it's an average release.  To sell this as somehow worse than any other prime is blowing a minor disappointment into something bad.  It's really hurting the ability to take you seriously, because if you can't have something between amazing and terrible your feedback isn't valuable.  

You are welcome to continue hiding behind the elitist attitude.  I for one acknowledge that my enjoyment can be divorced from my reaction.  I'm disappointed in the lackluster showing with Inaros Prime, it is not bad, and I personally think that it's trash.  Despite those personal beliefs, I cannot reasonably call the Inaros Prime bundle bad, only mediocre.  Likewise, maybe you should use some of those old weapons with a Riven.  Burston rivens are cheap, can be rolled easily to get increased status and decreased fire rate, can be paired with the syndicate mod (the truth effect restoring 25% of your HP), and generally is capable of being quite strong as status spreader.  

 

If you missed the other point here, any weapon with forma and a riven is good.  If I really wanted to I could have cited the Soma Prime as better than the Tiberon Prime because of better crit chance, better riven disposition, and only lagging in raw damage and ammo economy.  This is why the Soma Prime, Burston Prime, Braton Prime, and Tiberon Prime are all just meh weapons.  They're good.  Solid C students, who don't do anything extremely well or extremely bad.  This is why they're all middle of the road guns, and people focus on things like the Opticor, Kohm, and Trigris.  These three (and many others) are the outliers with big risk-reward propositions.  None of the middle-of-the-road assault rifles do this, and they aren't bad or good (only safe and uninteresting work horse assault rifle type weapons).

[-Kittens-]

8 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

What might I have accepted as an argument?  Well, if you wanted to sound smart you'd have made note of critical chance, multiplier, and status. 

I don't have to make mention of those because it's implied, the same way Zephyr's strength as a glass cannon pre "upgrade" were implied. The more telling issue here is you think there's an argument and there isn't, just all the people that used the kronen stance weapons as a macro farming crutch instead of a piece of the arsenal.

and your synthetic tact on the burston is again whataboutism at best, at literal best.

 

10 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

If you missed the other point here, any weapon with forma and a riven is good

and there we are, thanks for defenestrating your own argumentation handily, and it only took you three tries. You're basically arguing like someone going to evo or TYT or Electric Cancel and using a midtier character that's won you plenty of local matches and led you to gain a completely skewed understanding of how the game and your fighting vehicle works, of which you've immediately taken to the innerwebs to proudly display, whereupon at the actual event and in practicality's eye not only do you get bodied, but you do so by someone using a gimmick character who's simply using you an exhibition of game mechanics, most of which you weren't even aware of.

I'm not going to invoke "git gud" because it's easy and cheap, but you clearly didn't do your research then or now, and reliance on anecdotal evidence never pays off, so maybe do some watching and reading before opining without a bedrock of hard evidence.

Meanwhile in the real world 150 dollars for the best weapon in super underperforming category is a terrible purchase, and Inaros Prime is hot garbage as an upgrade vehicle and DE is deliberately ignoring what is obvious as both a premium purchase and frame advancement vehicle, and Zephyr has never not been able to evaporate entire tiles since her ult rework, which was well before her prime was ever conceived.

[master_of_destiny]

1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

I don't have to make mention of those because it's implied, the same way Zephyr's strength as a glass cannon pre "upgrade" were implied. The more telling issue here is you think there's an argument and there isn't, just all the people that used the kronen stance weapons as a macro farming crutch instead of a piece of the arsenal.

and your synthetic tact on the burston is again whataboutism at best, at literal best.

 

and there we are, thanks for defenestrating your own argumentation handily, and it only took you three tries. You're basically arguing like someone going to evo or TYT or Electric Cancel and using a midtier character that's won you plenty of local matches and led you to gain a completely skewed understanding of how the game and your fighting vehicle works, of which you've immediately taken to the innerwebs to proudly display, whereupon at the actual event and in practicality's eye not only do you get bodied, but you do so by someone using a gimmick character who's simply using you an exhibition of game mechanics, most of which you weren't even aware of.

I'm not going to invoke "git gud" because it's easy and cheap, but you clearly didn't do your research then or now, and reliance on anecdotal evidence never pays off, so maybe do some watching and reading before opining without a bedrock of hard evidence.

Meanwhile in the real world 150 dollars for the best weapon in super underperforming category is a terrible purchase, and Inaros Prime is hot garbage as an upgrade vehicle and DE is deliberately ignoring what is obvious as both a premium purchase and frame advancement vehicle, and Zephyr has never not been able to evaporate entire tiles since her ult rework, which was well before her prime was ever conceived.

Let's talk wording.  You definitely want to sound intelligent, but here's the rub.  You argued that Inaros Prime access is bad.  I argued that it wasn't and cited that at the time of release Zephyr Prime access was as mediocre, and that neither was bad.  I also utilized Zephyr because despite the release state, now the Kronen is seen as a very good weapon.

 

Let's talk upgrade.  What did Zephyr prime get?  Armor, energy capacity, and sprint speed.  Did any of this influence how her powers worked?  No.  You cited that Zephyr is powerful, and then took off on a tangent about how certain builds could do a 3-4 hour survival.  To which my response was many of the frames available, including standard Inaros, can do this.  Inaros prime is statistically superior, therefore the argument that Zephyr is somehow great is backwards.

 

You argued that the Tiberon prime hit hard.  No numbers, just "I got a good riven and it hit hard."  My response was the fact that the assault rifle class is burdened with guns that do exactly the same.  Statistically you have no argument, but you don't want to acknowledge that the Tiberon prime was an average prime.  It's baffling, but it seems to be motivated by your perception rather than reality.  Fine, you don't want to justify, and when confronted with facts will not show any counter arguments.

 

 

My next point here is that you seem to be making a stupid argument.  $150 is for the whole pack, with platinum and cosmetics.  If you buy one per year that's about a $12 monthly subscription to any other game.  Are any of the Prime packs worth that?  It's funny that you pull that argument out of the ether, because I'd love to see you justify anything when you make that assumption.

What I stated, and what you responded to, was that the Inaros Prime pack was disappointing because it was so middle of the road.  You stated it was bad.  Inaros Prime is better than the standard, the Panthera prime is a middle of the road assault rifle, and Karyst Prime is a dagger giving up speed for crit.  It's not worse than any other prime pack, but you call it bad.  Let's review what we've had in recent prime packs:

Atlas - Tekko Prime - Another weapon cited as "bad" without any justification.  It's almost like you don't want to support your feelings.

Zephyr - Commodore Prime Suit - I believe the joke was a Pulp Fiction style gimp suit for your operator.  Insert punchline here.

Titania - Pangolin Prime - Another sword, that gives up a guaranteed slash proc but gets more damage.  

Wukong - Zhuge Prime - An automatic crossbow that negates the silence of a bow with an explosion.

 

If it isn't clear, all of these things can be viewed as a prime upgrade, but arguably have some issues.  I cited the Commodore suit specifically because you assumed the $150 payment, and I want to make it clear that getting that suit was as expensive as you seem to be thinking that people would purchase.  Stopping for a moment, are any of these things that you'd actually call as must haves?  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most people would not be willing to pay for some of these things....and it's why there are 3 tiers of prime access.  That said, I don't believe that DE is pricing things reasonably.  This is another argument, but Tennogen cannot be bought with platinum and the costing is 5+ USD for a single item.  Yeah, it's hard to justify any of these expenses unless you believe DE is going to give you the game you want and it's "supporting hard working developers."

 

 

Finally, you seem to not get the argument for why everything is good with forma and a riven, despite making that argument about the Tiberon prime.  Let me put this into perspective.  If you replay that Grendel mission, against level 40 enemies, with no mods, how does the Tiberon perform?  Don't want to do that, then boot up the simulacrum.  Don't suspend enemy AI, and just play with the gun.  

I'm asking for honesty here, but I'm not expecting it from someone who doesn't want to put effort forward.  I'll help you understand what I've experienced.  A full clip into a level 40 heavy gunner with no mods from either the Tiberon or Burston prime does about the same damage.  There's variation based upon the rare crit, but it's indistinguishable.  Now throw a basic build onto the Tiberon and Burston.  The Tiberon consistently kills the heavy gunner in about 3/4 of a clip while the Burston takes a full clip.  Slap on a riven build, and go for hunter's munitions.  The Tiberon and Burston are indistinguishable.  The Tiberon does more slashes, but the Burston hits enough viral to really damage the targets.  Both take between 12-24 rounds to do enemies in.  

What does it take to buy a Tiberon riven...?  Not much, but the best rolls seem to actually be rather expensive (a couple hundred platinum).  What does it take to buy a Burston riven...?  Pocket change.  This makes the riven argument you put forward moot.  

Don't like burst firing, then choose the Braton Vandal.  Want status and continuous fire, go Braton Prime.  Want critical chance, choose the Soma Prime.  Want a hailstorm of bullets, choose the Supra Vandal.  Hopefully you get it, but putting this plainly the Tiberon wasn't special.  The Tiberon prime was another slight variation on the assault rifles we already have plenty of.

 

Kronen Prime...You seem to forget that the melee changes made all of them much better.  Upon release this was competing with the Atterax, heavy blades, and the Guandao.  This was slightly after PoE launched.  Melee was dominated by weapons with large range, because it could attack through walls.  The combo counter was much lower.  I'm trying to set the stage here because at the time the range on tonfas was terrible, so they performed poorly.  You could go to the simulacrum all day and beat one enemy up to show huge numbers, but in practice the range crippled them.  You're welcome to insist that people loved the things...but a quick review of the forums and wiki shows that the only people drooling were min/maxers, before melee got reworked.

In a perfect world, the Karyst prime would perform the same.  Right now there are videos of "insane red crits," but in practice the thing is underwhelming.  The problem is that hoping a prime weapon gets better is foolish.  If you were to talk to most people when the Kronen prime launched, it would likely have been exactly what is possible now with the Karyst.  "The Kronen has great potential, but the practical usage just isn't there."  This is why people often have a halo effect looking backwards, because it's easy to forget something as terrible as a % multiplier on range for something like a dagger....  This is why neither Zephyr or Inaros are bad prime packs, only mediocre showings. 

You state Inaros is bad, and I disagree.  You've managed to make this argument about Zephyr, because it was chosen as a baseline.  A baseline because I thought anyone arguing for that operator suit as worth buying would have the ability to separate their enjoyment from some perception of efficacy when the raw numbers just don't agree.  My bad, that was a bad assumption.

[motorfirebox]

We still need a fix for some people being unable to access some Dark Sector nodes on The Steel Path. 

[Adeptguy]

Why do so many people post such long walls of text that I EASILY decide to completely skip because its a waste of my time reading them? Do you really think a lot of us have the time to read your essay? #*!%s sake make it shorter and ppl will actually read it.

[-GAx-]

On 2020-08-05 at 7:11 PM, Adeptguy said:

Why do so many people post such long walls of text that I EASILY decide to completely skip because its a waste of my time reading them? Do you really think a lot of us have the time to read your essay? #*!%s sake make it shorter and ppl will actually read it.

Maybe because it wasn't directed at you?

Or maybe it really is just because you can't be arsed to find out someone else's (hopefully) well thought and written opinion of either the game or someone else's opinion?

Your 2 sentence comment is technically a waste of my time because you've decided to not keep it to yourself and instead make me perform another mouse scroll in this wall of forum replies.