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Maybe it is time to rebalance things by put diminishing returns on mod stacking


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If I were to use the classic as reference, Kuva Liches are more of yellow mobs (not taking into account the whole process to find the Kuva).since they just have special abilities but not a whole arena, boss mechanics and encounter for then.

Edited by Takamori
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47 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Press-4-to-win frame mains would disagree strongly with this. The whole point they're trivializing the game by mashing 4 is so they can rush missions as quickly as possible for the rewards.

Steel essence has a 5% chance to drop from eximus enemies, that means 1 in 20 will drop a Steel Essence. If you check the wiki and search the comments in the Steel Essence page, someone showed a screenshot of them earning 350 in a single endless mission, time spent unknown, after having killed 54k enemies.

latest?cb=20200718025950

I'm pretty sure this took several hours to obtain. And the person who achieved this said they got a 2 week trade ban for their effort.

Barring cosmetics and the occasional stance forma (you're silly if you spend the essence on relic packs when Syndicate standing is easier), the main use of this will be to buy Kuva. If you took all of that essence and used it for Kuva, that's about 230000 Kuva total after maybe 8 hours.

If you're some madman who wants to craft god-roll rivens to sell for huge platinum profits, this might be worth doing. For anyone else? What's the point? What's the incentive?

Is it necessary?

It's true that nuke frames invalidate the existence of everything else that isn't one. Energy economy is a joke and might as well not exist at this point, so support frames that help provide energy are unneeded. CC frames are redundant when everything is dead (veterans will remember a time when they were the meta). Tank frames are pointless if the things they're trying to aggro are all wiped out.

All of these tools are here for people to use as they see fit. 

I'm allowed to do whatever I want in this game as long as I follow the EULA and TOS.

If you would like to ask the developers to get rid of a part of the game you dont approve of, you can head to the feedback section and create a discourse with other players to see if they are on board with you.

If your goals and aspirations dont play out to your satisfaction, you're more than welcome to utilize the "Invite Only" and "Solo" functions provided in the game as well as "Recruit chat" to find like minded players that do not want to nuke. I've actually seen people do this. If they can manage then I'm sure you can as well. There are many friendly and helpful players of all playstyles that wouldn't mind helping you.

And once again: The Steel Path is for people that would like a slightly higher challenge without having to wait, as stated by the people that made this game, not you.

If you're having issues accepting the current state of the game, I refer you once again to the feedback section.

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20 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

All of these tools are here for people to use as they see fit. 

I'm allowed to do whatever I want in this game as long as I follow the EULA and TOS.

If you would like to ask the developers to get rid of a part of the game you dont approve of, you can head to the feedback section and create a discourse with other players to see if they are on board with you.

I never suggested removing Steel Path, for starters. My concern is whether people at large are going to bother continuing to play it after they've unlocked everything there. Seeing as the only real thing you can farm in Steel Path is Kuva with Steel Essence, I'm banking that this will be dead before long.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

If your goals and aspirations dont play out to your satisfaction, you're more than welcome to utilize the "Invite Only" and "Solo" functions provided in the game as well as "Recruit chat" to find like minded players that do not want to nuke. I've actually seen people do this. If they can manage then I'm sure you can as well. There are many friendly and helpful players of all playstyles that wouldn't mind helping you.

1. Invite Only and Solo are garbage excuses by people who want to ignore real problems with the game by pretending these are viable solutions. They're not. Enemy spawns in solo are terrible, so little spawn that you can barely call them a horde. You can see as much if you try playing survival solo without the aid of a void fissure, sustaining life support without a frame like Nekros is next to impossible because of lack of enemy spawns.

2. Outside of farming missions, powerleveling, and Eidolon hunts, nobody uses recruitment chat. Kuva Siphons/Floods? Liches? Non-specific relic opening? Ghost town.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

And once again: The Steel Path is for people that would like a slightly higher challenge without having to wait, as stated by the people that made this game, not you.

How many people actually care? Usually when you're given more risk, you're supposed to be presented more reward. Do you really think Steel Essence and Kuva is enough reward to keep most people coming back?

Yay, you get to fight enemies 100 levels higher with defenses similar to that found in Sorties! Okay... and?

Everyone will just go back to normal mode with their press-4-to-win frames blitzing through missions for rewards again as if nothing changed.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

If you're having issues accepting the current state of the game, I refer you once again to the feedback section.

Technically the OP is feedback more than it is discussion, so your point is moot.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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3 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Are you playing with every single person in the game? How do know what everyone is running? Are you just using anecdotal evidence because you've just been clicking on nodes with public on this whole time? 

I'm sorry, I really don't see the point you're trying to make. My own anecdotal evidence was used only to indicate those instances in which I saw some kind of role differentiation being used, you can disagree with that but it doesn't disprove that support roles are largely inconsequential in this game, simply because they are not needed in most content.

Edited by (XB1)ShonFr0st
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Steel Path is gonna be my default mode now, I find it more satisfying then wiping out everything in sight instantly. I am only 2 and half planets from completing it and am not going back.

Rewards? Inconsequential to me, as rewards only go so far in any mode regardless as eventually you will have everything.

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3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I never suggested removing Steel Path, for starters. My concern is whether people at large are going to bother continuing to play it after they've unlocked everything there. Seeing as the only real thing you can farm in Steel Path is Kuva with Steel Essence, I'm banking that this will be dead before long.

1. Invite Only and Solo are garbage excuses by people who want to ignore real problems with the game by pretending these are viable solutions. They're not. Enemy spawns in solo are hot garbage, so little spawn that you can barely call them a horde.

2. Outside of farming missions, powerleveling, and Eidolon hunts, nobody uses recruitment chat. Kuva Siphons/Floods? Liches? Non-specific relic opening? Ghost town.

How many people actually care? Usually when you're given more risk, you're supposed to be presented more reward. Do you really think Steel Essence and Kuva is enough reward to keep most people coming back?

Yay, you get to fight enemies 100 levels higher with defenses similar to that found in Sorties! Okay... and?

Technically the OP is feedback more than it is discussion, so your point is moot.

"My concern is whether people at large are going to bother"

Your concern should be yourself. You dont need to be concerned about me or anyone else. I will play steel path for as long as I want and that is of no concern to you. 

Why are you not concerned with "whether people at large" do animal conservation? Or Wyrmius? Or Lunaro? 

You're going to have to accept that large groups and small groups exist. Is there a rule or law that says "51% of all warframe players must play Steel Path." If so please show me.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Giagantic said:

Steel Path is gonna be my default mode now, I find it more satisfying then wiping out everything in sight instantly. I am only 2 and half planets from completing it and am not going back.

Rewards? Inconsequential to me, as rewards only go so far in any mode regardless as eventually you will have everything.

Then I hope you'll enjoy most of your missions solo or with maybe 1 or 2 teammates after a while. 😛 

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Just now, Pizzarugi said:

Then I hope you'll enjoy most of your missions solo or with maybe 1 or 2 teammates after a while. 😛 

After a while?

...

You mean right now, heh, I've had to solo the majority of the Starchart for Steel Path but I guess this is something I am used too. 😄

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15 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

"My concern is whether people at large are going to bother"

Your concern should be yourself. You dont need to be concerned about me or anyone else. I will play steel path for as long as I want and that is of no concern to you.

False.

I play public because I enjoy playing with others (at least until some press-4-to-win main shows up and trivializes the mission) and the resulting increased enemy spawns. Unlike some people, I remember what this game was like where missions needed everyone participating to make sure a mission doesn't fail, where having a support/CC/tank frame was appreciated. I can't enjoy this experience if everyone's abandoned the activity in favor of something easier, leaving me to just play solo.

You act like I don't think Steel Path should exist or that I don't enjoy it. I do. My concern is whether I'm going to be one of the few who still bother playing it while everyone else ran back to normal mode to keep cheesing and farming resources more easily.

History will prove me right.

Water finds a crack.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

False.

I play public because I enjoy playing with others (at least until some press-4-to-win main shows up and trivializes the mission) and the resulting increased enemy spawns. Unlike some people, I remember what this game was like where missions needed everyone participating to make sure a mission doesn't fail, where having a support/CC/tank frame was appreciated. I can't enjoy this experience if everyone's abandoned the activity in favor of something easier, leaving me to just play solo.

You act like I don't think Steel Path should exist or that I don't enjoy it. I do. My concern is whether I'm going to be one of the few who still bother playing it while everyone else ran back to normal mode to keep cheesing and farming resources more easily.

General population is called so for a reason. If you follow where "everyone else" goes, then that's up to you and no one is forcing you.

If you cant enjoy the content without the entire warframe community behind you chanting in unison, that is no ones problem except yours.

My concern is what different permutations of all these frames and guns I will use to decimate the Steel Path, repeatedly and over and over again.

I'm sorry the people that made the game kept adding stuff on over time and taking you out of the "good ole days". That's not my problem. You're gonna have to take that up with the developers or whoever is in charge.

I on the other hand, have been waiting for this Steel Path for quite some time, and I dont need any players approval to enjoy it. I hope you are able to find some peace.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

General population is called so for a reason. If you follow where "everyone else" goes, then that's up to you and no one is forcing you.

If you cant enjoy the content without the entire warframe community behind you chanting in unison, that is no ones problem except yours.

My concern is what different permutations of all these frames and guns I will use to decimate the Steel Path, repeatedly and over and over again.

I'm sorry the people that made the game kept adding stuff on over time and taking you out of the "good ole days". That's not my problem. You're gonna have to take that up with the developers or whoever is in charge.

I on the other hand, have been waiting for this Steel Path for quite some time, and I dont need any players approval to enjoy it. I hope you are able to find some peace.

Last I checked, this is a multiplayer game.

It's getting more clear to me that you're a solo player and, while I would normally be solo in any other game, I play multiplayer to avoid being punished with near-nonexistent enemy spawns in a horde shooter. We're just talking past each other at this point.

All I can suggest is that DE gives players an optional way to increase spawns in solo.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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11 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

It's fine if that's their idea of fun, but, in a game in which the entire goal is grinding items, 

Well how is it fine if you are lobbying for it to be removed?

And there is no clear guideline on what the "goal" of the game either. This is entirely subjective. 

You can rationalize with elaborate examples of what your idea of the game is supposed to be, but in the end that's simply your opinion of what will make your game experience better. And the opposing arguments are just the same. 

I feel like you are trying to say is that everyone craves the meta (this is simply not true) and because there are some winners in this department that means that almost everyone makes that choice (I am almost done with SP and haven't been inundated with these meta choices), AND, that because you don't like that choice, using anything else makes you feel irrelevant, so your solution is to just nerf things.

Some years ago I would have agreed with this, but the diversity of weapons, companions, frames and abilities now means that some choices will always be irrelevant now for certain mission types if you are having a meta argument. 

I personally think its absurb to say things like nukes trivializes content when that content was already the content was incredibly trivial to begin with. Hours into endless missions you can win with almost any frame without rivens or too complex builds, so imo the only thing restricting player choice is really their choice.

When I just want to complete a mission I go public and have no expectations, when I want to play a specific way, I make my squad, or just set to invite only, because you really dont need help. 

In the end for me it boils down to how close  any changes will allow everyone to have the best experience they want. Completely removing something from the game gives one group everything they want and another is deprived. I dont care for the nukes in question so it wont affect me, but the logical solution is the middle ground obviously. 

Edited by -Sandman
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10 hours ago, -Sandman said:

Well how is it fine if you are lobbying for it to be removed?

Where did I suggest that? I have nothing against AoE, but I absolutely dislike it when it is strong to the point that whenever I'm about to start a kill based mission, I have to say: "Do I bring what I like, and take twice the time, or bring a Nuke and blaze through this sluggish grind?". I'm not proposing to nerf AoE to the ground, but to rebalance it, in combination with changes to enemy and mission design, in order to make all the instruments in our toolbox (stealth, single target damage, cc, healing, buffing) worthwhile, instead of a voluntary handicap. Yes, this is my opinion on how the game should be. But while the current state of things leaves everyone that doesn't like nuking with the choice of being effective or having fun, a more balanced power landscape, along with enemies and encounters that require multiple specializations, would be a net gain for everybody.

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3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

But while the current state of things leaves everyone that doesn't like nuking with the choice of being effective  -snip-

I think this is the real contentious point here. My view is that it is too easy to overpower high level mobs with any frame with the right build and strategy. Sure the gameplay may be more involved than others with some frames and weapons; but that's the beauty of warframe; You can find the fun and challenge where you want it. You can farm for hours and make it feel difficult if you want it or easy enough to type a conversation with someone if you want. And sure some items could use a rework to make it more effective, and I don't disagree if some are decided to be watered down a bit; BUT I stand by my point that really the only thing that restricts player choices is their own choice. In the very early days of the old void when we camped for hours to farm the primes, I would probably agree that there was very little choice, you had to carry the greedy mag, frost etc etc, but now I don't think that's case anymore. 

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2 hours ago, -Sandman said:

I think this is the real contentious point here. My view is that it is too easy to overpower high level mobs with any frame with the right build and strategy. Sure the gameplay may be more involved than others with some frames and weapons; but that's the beauty of warframe; You can find the fun and challenge where you want it. You can farm for hours and make it feel difficult if you want it or easy enough to type a conversation with someone if you want. And sure some items could use a rework to make it more effective, and I don't disagree if some are decided to be watered down a bit; BUT I stand by my point that really the only thing that restricts player choices is their own choice. In the very early days of the old void when we camped for hours to farm the primes, I would probably agree that there was very little choice, you had to carry the greedy mag, frost etc etc, but now I don't think that's case anymore. 

Ok, I see your point now, and I respect your opinion, it's a different perspective but a valid one nonetheless. I think we can agree to disagree, as I still believe that the current meta disproportionally favors one toolset at the expense of others, and I feel it would be healthier for the game if every play style had the same chance to shine in an environment that calls for multiple playstyles to cooperate for success.

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