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Steel Essence Unaffected by Resource Drop Chance Boosters


Voltage

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19 minutes ago, Voltage said:

 

In the patch notes for the Steel Path:

cover3.jpg

Endo is in the Mod drop table and is affected by a Mod drop chance booster. Seriously? This is cherry-picking on the next level to wave DE in the clear on a fundamental scam in booster purchases. If I wanted to really stretch it, technically fish and gems are "currency" for standing in Plains of Eidolon and Fortuna, and both resource boosters affect those. Funny how that works right?

You use all the other stuff to craft with, that isnt the case for Steel Essence.

Also, do some math regarding it. A booster wouldnt do anything for Steel Essence since it would have the same % chance to drop in relation to other mats since it would share tables with them. All it would do is up the total % for everything, so instead of having say 100% covered where steel essence would take up 2%, we'd sit at 200% where steel essence takes up 4%, the result would still be the same, with a 2% outcome for steel essence to drop. Unless you want special treatment for it in a seperate category that still uses the resource chance booster, which would be a bit dishonest since if it is a resource that can benefit from the booster it should be part of the resource drop table.

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13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You use all the other stuff to craft with, that isnt the case for Steel Essence.

Also, do some math regarding it. A booster wouldnt do anything for Steel Essence since it would have the same % chance to drop in relation to other mats since it would share tables with them. All it would do is up the total % for everything, so instead of having say 100% covered where steel essence would take up 2%, we'd sit at 200% where steel essence takes up 4%, the result would still be the same, with a 2% outcome for steel essence to drop. Unless you want special treatment for it in a seperate category that still uses the resource chance booster, which would be a bit dishonest since if it is a resource that can benefit from the booster it should be part of the resource drop table.

Let's use a simple example here. All numbers here are made up and are not reflective of gameplay.

An enemy has a 50% chance to drop an item. When it does, there is a 2% chance that it is a Steel Essence, which gives us a 1% Steel Essence drop rate per enemy. 0.5 * 0.02 = 0.01.

Now you use a drop chance booster. The chance to drop an item goes up to 100%. When it does, there is still a 2% chance that it is a Steel Essence, which gives us a 2% Steel Essence drop rate per enemy. 1.0 * 0.02 = 0.02.

You don't care about the proportion of Steel Essence : other mats; that remains the same. You care about the absolute number that you are acquiring, which, on average, would be doubled (along with every other resource from that table).

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hace 9 horas, Voltage dijo:

 

In the patch notes for the Steel Path:

cover3.jpg

Endo is in the Mod drop table and is affected by a Mod drop chance booster. Seriously? This is cherry-picking on the next level to wave DE in the clear on a fundamental scam in booster purchases. If I wanted to really stretch it, technically fish and gems are "currency" for standing in Plains of Eidolon and Fortuna, and both resource boosters affect those. Funny how that works right?



 Voltage dude, can you find a logical explanation for the people defending DE? 
I can't wrap my head around it 

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16 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You use all the other stuff to craft with, that isnt the case for Steel Essence.

Also, do some math regarding it. A booster wouldnt do anything for Steel Essence since it would have the same % chance to drop in relation to other mats since it would share tables with them. All it would do is up the total % for everything, so instead of having say 100% covered where steel essence would take up 2%, we'd sit at 200% where steel essence takes up 4%, the result would still be the same, with a 2% outcome for steel essence to drop. Unless you want special treatment for it in a seperate category that still uses the resource chance booster, which would be a bit dishonest since if it is a resource that can benefit from the booster it should be part of the resource drop table.

And your point is? If you roll the Essence drop twice as many times (2 times per enemy), that increases the odds of getting the Essence. So saying that a booster wouldn't do anything is nonsensical. You'd still be twice as likely to drop the Essence with a Booster. You'd also have a 0.04% chance to drop two Steel Essence from a single enemy.

What kind of twisted logic are you trying to use? That getting twice as many drops doesn't matter?

And saying that Steel Essence is currency instead of being a resource doesn't make any sense, it's been called a Resource by DE, just because right now, there is no bps to craft with it doesn't change that. Also, would you call Ducats a resource? You can use it to craft Paracesis, so that means it's not a currency?

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14 hours ago, -NICHE- said:

Let's use a simple example here. All numbers here are made up and are not reflective of gameplay.

An enemy has a 50% chance to drop an item. When it does, there is a 2% chance that it is a Steel Essence, which gives us a 1% Steel Essence drop rate per enemy. 0.5 * 0.02 = 0.01.

Now you use a drop chance booster. The chance to drop an item goes up to 100%. When it does, there is still a 2% chance that it is a Steel Essence, which gives us a 2% Steel Essence drop rate per enemy. 1.0 * 0.02 = 0.02.

You don't care about the proportion of Steel Essence : other mats; that remains the same. You care about the absolute number that you are acquiring, which, on average, would be doubled (along with every other resource from that table).

But the end result would be the same as now.

Steel Essence currently has a 2% chance to drop from an automatic roll on the seperate table. That is the equal of your boosted example, which would require a booster to get to that point incase the chance to roll on the table is anywhere below 100% already. Even at 99% chance to roll it would be worse, since the chance doesnt go above 100%.

Though the chance to drop an item isnt effected by the resource chance booster, it only increases what is on the table when/if a roll on it is made last I checked. So if essence got moved to a "regular" loot table it would first need to get that table to roll, then get the essence to roll out of the pool of other items on that list. And we dont know the % numbers regarding how likely a specific table is to roll except for those stated as guaranteed rolls, like oxium, demo kuva, carbides etc. and essence.

38 minutes ago, markus230 said:

And your point is? If you roll the Essence drop twice as many times (2 times per enemy), that increases the odds of getting the Essence. So saying that a booster wouldn't do anything is nonsensical. You'd still be twice as likely to drop the Essence with a Booster. You'd also have a 0.04% chance to drop two Steel Essence from a single enemy.

What kind of twisted logic are you trying to use? That getting twice as many drops doesn't matter?

And saying that Steel Essence is currency instead of being a resource doesn't make any sense, it's been called a Resource by DE, just because right now, there is no bps to craft with it doesn't change that. Also, would you call Ducats a resource? You can use it to craft Paracesis, so that means it's not a currency?

But you never roll twice on a table with the booster, it increases the % chance of a specific item to drop when something drops, but you only ever get one chance, the exception is pigments that instead doubles the yield in cases of guaranteed pigment drops. Where do you get this idea from? Or did you missunderstand my 200% example? That was simply an example of a "filled" loot table where 100% is covered so you always get something if the table rolls. It wouldnt result in 2 drops due to having 200% since only one roll is made, it would just mean the that the loot on the table simply occupies 200%.

Ducats arent drops, so nothing we need to care about regarding what they are.

 

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2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you never roll twice on a table with the booster, it increases the % chance of a specific item to drop when something drops, but you only ever get one chance, the exception is pigments that instead doubles the yield in cases of guaranteed pigment drops. Where do you get this idea from? Or did you missunderstand my 200% example? That was simply an example of a "filled" loot table where 100% is covered so you always get something if the table rolls. It wouldnt result in 2 drops due to having 200% since only one roll is made, it would just mean the that the loot on the table simply occupies 200%.

Ducats arent drops, so nothing we need to care about regarding what they are.

200% drop chance would result in two rolls for Essence. That's how it already works in the game for some of the Enemies, Exploiter Orb has a drop table filled with Orb Vallis resources, 16.67% drop chance each. And the table itself has a 300% drop chance. And guess what? You get three drops. Because the table rolls three times. Hell, Tusk Thumper Doma has 800% resource drop chance, and sure enough, you get 8 drops

So yes 200% drop chance would result in two rolls for Essence, it would also be possible to get two Essence from a single enemy. It's basic math, 100% is the same thing as 1, 200% is the same thing as 2. 1*0.02=0.02 and 2*0.02=0.04. 4%>2% (and if we want to calculate this properly, it's actually 3.6%, not 4%, still more than 2)

 

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7 minutes ago, markus230 said:

200% drop chance would result in two rolls for Essence. That's how it already works in the game for some of the Enemies, Exploiter Orb has a drop table filled with Orb Vallis resources, 16.67% drop chance each. And the table itself has a 300% drop chance. And guess what? You get three drops. Because the table rolls three times. Hell, Tusk Thumper Doma has 800% resource drop chance, and sure enough, you get 8 drops

So yes 200% drop chance would result in two rolls for Essence, it would also be possible to get two Essence from a single enemy. It's basic math, 100% is the same thing as 1, 200% is the same thing as 2. 1*0.02=0.02 and 2*0.02=0.04. 4%>2%

 

No it wouldnt since you talk about a different type of percentage.

Boosters effect what you get if a roll happens, they dont effect wether or not a roll happens. Exploiter guarantees 3 rolls with a 16.67% chance for each fish, meaning you can get 3 drops from it. Slapping a booster on there does nothing since the fish already occupy 100%+ of the drop table and they all have an equal chance of already dropping. You dont get 6 fishes by adding a chance booster, which according to you we would get since it would increase each guaranteed drop table roll to roll on 200%+ of fishes (around 33% chance per fish).

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2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No it wouldnt since you talk about a different type of percentage.

Boosters effect what you get if a roll happens, they dont effect wether or not a roll happens. Exploiter guarantees 3 rolls with a 16.67% chance for each fish, meaning you can get 3 drops from it. Slapping a booster on there does nothing since the fish already occupy 100%+ of the drop table and they all have an equal chance of already dropping. You dont get 6 fishes by adding a chance booster, which according to you we would get since it would increase each guaranteed drop table roll to roll on 200%+ of fishes (around 33% chance per fish).

Then why does pigment drop twice when you have a drop chance booster enabled? It has 100% chance to drop, it's doubled, you get 200% chance for it to drop, and you get two drops. If anything, It's DE being inconsistent with how boosters affect drops. 100% to drop something, when doubled is 200% to drop something, so you SHOULD get 6 drops from Exploiter, because only that makes sense mathematically. Sadly, I can't find any info about it on the Wiki. I guess I'll have to test that myself. That however would still mean that drop chance booster is inconsistent since it works as expected on pigments

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15 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Then why does pigment drop twice when you have a drop chance booster enabled? It has 100% chance to drop, it's doubled, you get 200% chance for it to drop, and you get two drops. If anything, It's DE being inconsistent with how boosters affect drops. 100% to drop something, when doubled is 200% to drop something, so you SHOULD get 6 drops from Exploiter, because only that makes sense mathematically. Sadly, I can't find any info about it on the Wiki. I guess I'll have to test that myself. That however would still mean that drop chance booster is inconsistent since it works as expected on pigments

Pigments are the exception, most likely because their drop rate varies, so some are guaranteed and while some arent.

I wouldnt say that 200% to drop something means that it should drop twice, that would mean you put your whole theory on a single exception within the game. DE have a certain few hand made drop variations in order to benefit the player.

Just look at the RJ resources that drop from the eximus, there would be no possible way to treat them normaly while keeping their very high natural drop rate, since the booster would suddenly guarantee their drops since they have a 50% chance to drop on a guaranteed roll. Which would mean nothing else would drop on the table they are placed and it would dilute the table aswell by having half of it occupied by one drop. They could also balance it around being on a normal table, it would still have a huge diluting factor on the table and in the end the amount of drops would likely be the same due to balance.

The only thing DE did wrong here is that they didnt go out and mention a second time how guaranteed rolls interact with the chance booster, like they did when RJ resources were released.

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2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just look at the RJ resources that drop from the eximus, there would be no possible way to treat them normaly while keeping their very high natural drop rate, since the booster would suddenly guarantee their drops since they have a 50% chance to drop on a guaranteed roll. Which would mean nothing else would drop on the table they are placed and it would dilute the table aswell by having half of it occupied by one drop.

No, not really, if you've got a table with two items, 50% to drop each, it's as if you pulled a random number, 0 or 1, one of the drops appears when you pull 0, the other appears when you pull 1. If you double the chance for both items, now it is as if both item were dropping both on 0 and 1 (or as if they dropped on the same number, and you can only pull that one number).

Basically this way if something else is in the table, you get both items every time. Doubling the chance of something inside the table dropping doesn't lower the chances of other items dropping.

Either that, or make Booster work so that it doubles the odds of table rolling, but it could be confusing for some players I guess, because you can't just look at the drop chance inside a table and double it. (two rolls for 2% doesn't give you 4% chance).

Main issue is that DE has two definitions of what a drop chance is, and they use them as if it didn't matter. We are told that Steel Essence is a resource, and that it's drop chance is 2%. So a resource drop chance definitely should affect that. But in this case DE refers to a drop chance that is actually a chance to roll the table. Because of that, DE saying that something has a drop chance could mean two very different things (100% roll chance with a 2% drop chance item means boosters work, while 2% roll chance with a 100% drop chance item means that it wont). They should either clarify what they mean when they say that, or make boosters behave in a way that makes mathematical sense (as is the case with pigments).

It's in no way the players fault to expect a resource drop chance booster to affect a drop chance of a resource.

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16 minutes ago, markus230 said:

No, not really, if you've got a table with two items, 50% to drop each, it's as if you pulled a random number, 0 or 1, one of the drops appears when you pull 0, the other appears when you pull 1. If you double the chance for both items, now it is as if both item were dropping both on 0 and 1 (or as if they dropped on the same number, and you can only pull that one number).

Basically this way if something else is in the table, you get both items every time. Doubling the chance of something inside the table dropping doesn't lower the chances of other items dropping.

Either that, or make Booster work so that it doubles the odds of table rolling, but it could be confusing for some players I guess, because you can't just look at the drop chance inside a table and double it. (two rolls for 2% doesn't give you 4% chance).

Main issue is that DE has two definitions of what a drop chance is, and they use them as if it didn't matter. We are told that Steel Essence is a resource, and that it's drop chance is 2%. So a resource drop chance definitely should affect that. But in this case DE refers to a drop chance that is actually a chance to roll the table. Because of that, DE saying that something has a drop chance could mean two very different things (100% roll chance with a 2% drop chance item means boosters work, while 2% roll chance with a 100% drop chance item means that it wont). They should either clarify what they mean when they say that, or make boosters behave in a way that makes mathematical sense (as is the case with pigments).

It's in no way the players fault to expect a resource drop chance booster to affect a drop chance of a resource.

Why you resurrected idea that Steel Essence is Resource?

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31 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Why you resurrected idea that Steel Essence is Resource?

VzdYdVU.png

"Steel Essence can be found as a Resource drop from Eximus enemies within the steel path."

Resource drop.

Only makes sense that this currency that is handled as a Resource drop will be boosted by a Resource drop chance booster, doesn't it?

 

Endo is also not a mod, but remained on the mod drop table when they converted fusion cores, this means Endo is handled as a mod drop, which a mod drop chance booster increases, you can make a ton of Endo with a mod drop chance booster. You also get more avionics, which are also not in the name of the booster.

My point is, a chance booster doesn't only increases what it says it does, but improves the chance of getting something from a specific drop system, of which there are surprisingly many like "Additional Item Drop", "Sigil Drop" (which contains resources for the Exploiter Orb, stepping around the drop chance booster), "Blueprint Drop", Resource Drop and Mod Drop".

Your chance of getting an Orokin Cell (which is a resource) from Corrupted Captain Vor will not increase with a resource drop chance booster, since this resource drops from his mod drop table and not his resource drop table.

 

So it would only makes sense that something that is stated to drop from the Resource drop table, would then get boosted by a resource drop chance booster.

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Just now, 16Bitman said:

VzdYdVU.png

"Steel Essence can be found as a Resource drop from Eximus enemies within the steel path."

Sir, that, even with my bad English, means for me how the Steel Essence drops and not what kind of drop it is, which is described in sentence before. It’s some kind of warning: Check every loot because you can easily overlook it.

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1 hour ago, markus230 said:

No, not really, if you've got a table with two items, 50% to drop each, it's as if you pulled a random number, 0 or 1, one of the drops appears when you pull 0, the other appears when you pull 1. If you double the chance for both items, now it is as if both item were dropping both on 0 and 1 (or as if they dropped on the same number, and you can only pull that one number).

Basically this way if something else is in the table, you get both items every time. Doubling the chance of something inside the table dropping doesn't lower the chances of other items dropping.

Either that, or make Booster work so that it doubles the odds of table rolling, but it could be confusing for some players I guess, because you can't just look at the drop chance inside a table and double it. (two rolls for 2% doesn't give you 4% chance).

Main issue is that DE has two definitions of what a drop chance is, and they use them as if it didn't matter. We are told that Steel Essence is a resource, and that it's drop chance is 2%. So a resource drop chance definitely should affect that. But in this case DE refers to a drop chance that is actually a chance to roll the table. Because of that, DE saying that something has a drop chance could mean two very different things (100% roll chance with a 2% drop chance item means boosters work, while 2% roll chance with a 100% drop chance item means that it wont). They should either clarify what they mean when they say that, or make boosters behave in a way that makes mathematical sense (as is the case with pigments).

It's in no way the players fault to expect a resource drop chance booster to affect a drop chance of a resource.

But that would require a completely different system since we are tied to singular roll here. So how it could possibly work doesnt matter since that belongs to a different system. The way WF works it would mean that if RJ resources were on one of the normal tables it would either occupy a large portion of it or make all other items unobtainable with boosters. We already see this problem in Vallis and PoE with mining nodes where the chance booster shoves minerals to the side for more occurance of gems.

And no there is no positive way of say that a resources booster should effect steel essence just because it is a resource and it has a drop chance, is there is precidence of that not being a rule when we look at other drops. Essence works exactly like RJ resources, neither are affected by the chance booster. It's just that essence only has a 2% drop chance on a roll and RJ resources a 50% chance on a roll, where the rolls however are guaranteed to happen. Which also brings us back to the point where it would be a waste to move steel essence to a not guaranteed table just to boost the % drop chance since it is already guaranteed to roll on the seperate table that it occupies.

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19 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Sir, that, even with my bad English, means for me how the Steel Essence drops and not what kind of drop it is, which is described in sentence before. It’s some kind of warning: Check every loot because you can easily overlook it.

Nope.

It says they say the Steel Path Honors takes Steel Essence as a currency.

Nakak and Master Tesonai will also treat some of your resources as currency for specific items.

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Just now, 16Bitman said:

Nope.

It says they say the Steel Path Honors takes Steel Essence as a currency.

Nakak and Master Tesonai will also treat some of your resources as currency for specific items.

That still doesnt change the way it drops, which is already inline with other very specific resources in the game. So just because it is a "resource" it doesnt have to follow the rules of generic resources, it can follow the rules of the specific ones like it currently does.

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7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That still doesnt change the way it drops, which is already inline with other very specific resources in the game. So just because it is a "resource" it doesnt have to follow the rules of generic resources, it can follow the rules of the specific ones like it currently does.

Sure, that's okay.

This is all about DE not being clear enough about it though.

A "resource drop" should be doubled by a "resource drop chance booster".

When something is doubled by a "resource booster" it will also lead people to believe it is a resource drop.

 

My end goal isn't "x4 steel" but for DE to make a clear, easy to see statement that the blue resource drop chance boosters are a waste of platinium if your only goal is to obtain more steel essences.

 

They could title it as a "currency drop", or throw it in the existing "additional item drop" pool.

 

I'd accept if the yellow resource boosters and smeeta kavats would stop working on them too as long as no one would spend money on something useless.

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2 minutes ago, 16Bitman said:

Sure, that's okay.

This is all about DE not being clear enough about it though.

A "resource drop" should be doubled by a "resource drop chance booster".

When something is doubled by a "resource booster" it will also lead people to believe it is a resource drop.

 

My end goal isn't "x4 steel" but for DE to make a clear, easy to see statement that the blue resource drop chance boosters are a waste of platinium if your only goal is to obtain more steel essences.

 

They could title it as a "currency drop", or throw it in the existing "additional item drop" pool.

 

I'd accept if the yellow resource boosters and smeeta kavats would stop working on them too as long as no one would spend money on something useless.

I agree, they should have been clearer. A simple line next to Steel Essence in the patch notes copied from the RJ notes would have been enough since the same rules apply.

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1 hour ago, 16Bitman said:

Nope.

It says they say the Steel Path Honors takes Steel Essence as a currency.

Nakak and Master Tesonai will also treat some of your resources as currency for specific items.

Resource > Currency, until first Item which will need Steel Essence for build, what will probably never happen, Steel Essence will stay as a Currency.

1 hour ago, 16Bitman said:

I'd accept if the yellow resource boosters and smeeta kavats would stop working on them too as long as no one would spend money on something useless.

I can’t see any reason why whole playerbase should be punished just because few players, without decent amount of self criticism ignored Patch notes.

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It's ridiculous how people are arguing whether Steel Essence is a currency or resource. Even ignoring that it's called a resource in the patchnotes... just look up some definitions of the word 'resource' if you're so hellbent on arguing semantics.

There is no rule saying that something that can be in a trade of goods isn't a resource. Quite the contrary, in fact. Whether or not you can craft something with it is irrelevant.

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Resource > Currency, until first Item which will need Steel Essence for build, what will probably never happen, Steel Essence will stay as a Currency.

I can’t see any reason why whole playerbase should be punished just because few players, without decent amount of self criticism ignored Patch notes.

You're contradicting yourself in the same post now.

You keep insisting that it is a currency and not a resource, but at the same time you say that disabling the >resource< booster for this totally not resource is a punishment and not just a fix?

 

The single quote you're basing your entire argument on also states that this currency will be distributed through the resource drop system, which resource drop boosters increase unless stated otherwise.

 

Absolutely everything points to this being a resource that can be traded in, especially it being effected by the yellow resource booster, please reply once you find a dev statement that says otherwise, the line I quoted earlier only reinforces my side of the argument.

 

9 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

It's ridiculous how people are arguing whether Steel Essence is a currency or resource. Even ignoring that it's called a resource in the patchnotes... just look up some definitions of the word 'resource' if you're so hellbent on arguing semantics.

There is no rule saying that something that can be in a trade of goods isn't a resource. Quite the contrary, in fact. Whether or not you can craft something with it is irrelevant.

They're not just refering to it as a resource in the patch notes, but specifically as a "resource drop", which only further falsely points towards it being affected by a resource drop chance booster.

Resources can also be obtained through "Mod Drop" and "Additional Drop", which are doubled by a resource booster, but are entirely unaffected by a resource drop chance booster.

 

Arguing about this (and endlessly repeating the same points) at least keeps this topic on the first page, where hopefully people will be discouraged from buying the drop chance booster for their steel essence farms.

 

DEs mission logs also only go back 30 days, if DE plans on increasing past gains or atleast refund the cost for boosters, they have to do so soon, if Deimos drops on Tennocon, this entire complaint will get absolutely buried and might only resurface way past that deadline.

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5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that would require a completely different system since we are tied to singular roll here. So how it could possibly work doesnt matter since that belongs to a different system. The way WF works it would mean that if RJ resources were on one of the normal tables it would either occupy a large portion of it or make all other items unobtainable with boosters. We already see this problem in Vallis and PoE with mining nodes where the chance booster shoves minerals to the side for more occurance of gems.

Or DE could just make Steel Essence table roll 100% of the time with the drop chance being 2%. Bang, fixed. No need for any changes to the drop system. Though they probably should change it either way so that it is consistent across all resource drop tables.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And no there is no positive way of say that a resources booster should effect steel essence just because it is a resource and it has a drop chance, is there is precidence of that not being a rule when we look at other drops

Just because DE is inconsistent with it isn't an excuse. How are we supposed to know if the drop chance booster works if DE doesn't tell us? I assume that by default it should work unless stated otherwise. With Steel Essence, the only way to find out is by spending money on the boosters and tracking how much Essence drops you get. And sample size of one isn't good enough for statistics, so multiple people have to spend money on boosters just to figure out if they even work or not. (site with drop tables still doesn't contain information about Steel Essence)

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Why you resurrected idea that Steel Essence is Resource?

Because DE said it is?

tenor.gif

This discussion is going in circles for no good reason. It's clearly an oversight as either A) they forgot to state that the booster doesn't work or B) forgot to make the booster apply. Even if this is 100% intentional, DE still has a problem to address. The longer this persists, the more players waste time, Platinum, money, or all three thinking that this interaction exists when it doesn't.

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