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Steel Path highlights the issue with status/ability immune enemies once again.


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Its been said a few times by DE and recently in the Tactical Potato interview that DE doesn't want Warframe to be a numbers game. But then they create minibosses and bosses that are immune to status profs and wafrrame abilities, thus enforcing the numbers game. 

The greatest example of this are the demolysts in steel path (and just in general). They take all creativity from players and enforce a damage meta. They're immune to status procs, some are armored to the teeth, they're immune to most abilities (seems a bit inconsistent which abilities), and they spam nullifier bubbles in short range. And you have a short time to stop them. The only alternative is overwhelming damage or finding alternative ways to lock it down, such as the operator slow down or various stunning abilities. 

What's the point of investing time in a frame if that frame is made completely void by these enemies. I get that some abilities would make these enemies null, but surely there's an alternative, like cleansing every 10 seconds or having cc abilities like bastille only slow the enemies. There is SO much content in this game now that DE can take the leash off.

Please DE, give us back our abilities and status procs. (And maybe take another look at these status immune enemies' armor values)

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they make the enemies weak enough that newer players can kill them but theyre so weak that old players will one shot them.  so they do things like add invincibility phases.  imagine eidolons without invincibility phases.  would be an absolute joke.  just how the game and their design philosophy is.

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I didn't even bother trying any status builds, my base assumption, even after the rework, was "go crit/massive damage with flat buffs, and/or powers that remove armor/shield". it will never change as long as DE introduces stuff into the game that trivializes old content and then go "don't do that" and make the old content immune to the new stuff as a band aid... that becomes a permanent solution, because nobody got time to redesign the issue, partially because more new stuff got thrown into that makes the entire situation a nightmare that is neatly sealed away by "immune"

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DE don't WANT their game to be a numbers game, but in the current Meta's, they have no choice.

Consider, if you will, what would happen were Demolysts to lose their ability immunity. CC warframes would immediately render them completely helpless, and Disruption as a whole would be a total non-issue. And make no mistake, we entirely have the ability to do that, without question. Even if you spawned a dozen demolysts, they'd be small potatoes. Boom. Disruption solved, and the mini-bosses are no more threatening than a roller.

 

The solution? Rebalance/rework energy, several abilities on top of that, rebalance every weapon in the game (AGAIN) and probably make adjustments to the AI on top of that, to make it so that we can't hyper-reliably ignore the entire game with a margin for error larger than the gulf between stars. This is, to say the absolute least, a humongous task.

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when nova with her Molecular prime lauched, it kind created a bar that, or they need to keep all future frames worse, or way better than her at CCing. And to this day, Molecular rime still is one of the most op skill in the game

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34 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

DE don't WANT their game to be a numbers game, but in the current Meta's, they have no choice.

Consider, if you will, what would happen were Demolysts to lose their ability immunity. CC warframes would immediately render them completely helpless, and Disruption as a whole would be a total non-issue. And make no mistake, we entirely have the ability to do that, without question. Even if you spawned a dozen demolysts, they'd be small potatoes. Boom. Disruption solved, and the mini-bosses are no more threatening than a roller.

 

The solution? Rebalance/rework energy, several abilities on top of that, rebalance every weapon in the game (AGAIN) and probably make adjustments to the AI on top of that, to make it so that we can't hyper-reliably ignore the entire game with a margin for error larger than the gulf between stars. This is, to say the absolute least, a humongous task.

Like I said, you can balance it by having the effects of cc only slow them down or they cleanse themselves every few seconds. Or maybe the ability only works once so you have one chance to spam the damage. 

Theres several other solutions to the problem than having minibosses shout "haha nope, #*!% you" when you try to sleep/freeze/stun/weaken it.

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il y a une heure, BernieBlack a dit :

DE doesn't want Warframe to be a numbers game.

this is why each weapon have its own number of damage, the stat of the ennemis change with the level, we have lot of way too increase our damage and the mods are an essencial part of the game, ....

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1 hour ago, BernieBlack said:

Its been said a few times by DE and recently in the Tactical Potato interview that DE doesn't want Warframe to be a numbers game.

If that is the case, then they're designing the wrong game. The entire driving force of our modding and the surrounding metagame is maximizing our numbers, and min-maxing our ability stats. The entire point of the Steel Path was to raise numbers on some enemies in an attempt to create some form of challenge in a game that currently has little to none of it.

As for the OP's point itself, I agree: status-immune enemies are far more spongey than is enjoyable in the Steel Path, and the worst part is they're typically not even difficult to fight; combat against them is just protracted. It goes to show as well just how potent certain status effects are in amplifying our damage, particularly Viral. If nothing else, those status-immune enemies should be given the Kuva Lich treatment, and be affected by status with some stack limit, and ideally this should lead to another pass on our status system, which still has some pretty serious issues despite its recent overhaul (many of which are due to said overhaul).

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1 minute ago, BernieBlack said:

Like I said, you can balance it by having the effects of cc only slow them down or they cleanse themselves every few seconds. Or maybe the ability only works once so you have one chance to spam the damage. 

Theres several other solutions to the problem than having minibosses shout "haha nope, #*!% you" when you try to sleep/freeze/stun/weaken it.

This only addresses the symptom, not the problem.

The problem being that we have abilities that at their very fundamentals, break any possibility of having the game be more than a gear-check. Invisibility, CC, DPS nuking, hyper-inflated health pools and regeneration. Simply put, every dial DE has to lean towards skill-checks rather than gear-checks has been sabotaged by this point.

Smart AI? We have multiple ways to avoid it.

Lots of enemies? We deal damage in such large, LoS ignoring areas.

Short time to kill? There are continents less broad than the EHP disparity between the squishiest and tankiest setup.

 

Without the dials to make it anything but, DE's stuck between making half the enemies arbitrarily immune to abilities, and/or stuck in a recursive power creep vacuum with absolutely nothing to strive for because we have everything already.

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Honestly Steel Path more highlights to me just how absurd the power creep is on the whole to me.

All they can do is crank the numbers and hope its enough, but it never will be, players will find the quickest way to ignore the game for maximum rewards while also complaining that they aren't getting rewards that let them ignore the game even more.

They can't even try and balance things because people lose their minds over the slightest HINT of any kind of nerf to ANYTHING, players, enemies, even GRIND nerfs get complained about.

Edited by Aldain
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It's really sad how so many weapons with fun status gimmicks get arbitrarily gutted once you fight certain higher 'tier' enemies. Like, I love the hystrix, it's fun, it's snappy, it's powerful, it has a funny little gimmick. Oh-oh, woops, no, nevermind, half of the tougher enemies in the game just ignore status procs completely, so there goes the whole point of that.

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

This only addresses the symptom, not the problem.

The problem being that we have abilities that at their very fundamentals, break any possibility of having the game be more than a gear-check. Invisibility, CC, DPS nuking, hyper-inflated health pools and regeneration. Simply put, every dial DE has to lean towards skill-checks rather than gear-checks has been sabotaged by this point.

Smart AI? We have multiple ways to avoid it.

Lots of enemies? We deal damage in such large, LoS ignoring areas.

Short time to kill? There are continents less broad than the EHP disparity between the squishiest and tankiest setup.

 

Without the dials to make it anything but, DE's stuck between making half the enemies arbitrarily immune to abilities, and/or stuck in a recursive power creep vacuum with absolutely nothing to strive for because we have everything already.

Well until the huge undertaking is accomplished they can at least address these few symptoms. Immunity might be a solution but it's nowhere near fun, especially with steel path modifiers.

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7 hours ago, BernieBlack said:

The greatest example of this are the demolysts in steel path (and just in general). They take all creativity from players and enforce a damage meta. They're immune to status procs, some are armored to the teeth, they're immune to most abilities (seems a bit inconsistent which abilities), and they spam nullifier bubbles in short range. And you have a short time to stop them. The only alternative is overwhelming damage or finding alternative ways to lock it down, such as the operator slow down or various stunning abilities. 

 

They are not immune to status and they partially status immune, I see them as a very balanced enemy mechanic wise compared to the others. But I agree that they burst out a large AoE nullifier bubble instantly thus giving no room to dodge. Would be nice instead of instant burst it starts out small rapidly expanding to it’s max radius allowing players to dodge them.

Steel Path is the problem, not the mobs. What they need to do is remove those stupid modifiers. We want a level increase not a bullcrap modifier.

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4 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

We want a level increase not a bullcrap modifier.

I wanted missions to start off with Eximus, rather than having to sit through multiple pointless rounds for a sizable quantity of them to appear. They provide more of a baseline "challenge" than an increase in enemy level.

But I guess that would provide too much farm value for the Steel Path...

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23 hours ago, BernieBlack said:

Its been said a few times by DE and recently in the Tactical Potato interview that DE doesn't want Warframe to be a numbers game.

Regardless of what people at DE "want," the reality is what they made, and what they made very much IS a numbers game. While Warframe has the trappings of an action game, the "action" aspect is severely underdeveloped. Enemies rarely telegraph their attacks, most enemies look alike despite being wholly different units, most of their attacks lack sound or visual cues, the majority of them are hitscan, etc. We have all the tools of an action game, such as a fairly complex gunplay system and one of the best mobility systems in gaming, yet we solve nearly every challenge the game throws at us by bringing enough of the right numbers. Warframe is won or lost in the Arsenal, with the actual mission being little more than going through the motions of a foregone conclusion.

The entire modding system is one gigantic, overly-complicated optimisation problem, in most cases with a discrete set of solutions. There's not a lot of room for experimentation or preference in modding. For everything you'e modding, people have already determined a set of optimal loadouts. Use those, or you're running with severely reduced efficiency. I stopped even choosing my own damage types a while ago, because I simply use whatever I have a Primed Elemental Damage mod. Is it a rifle? OK, I have Primed Cold, so my rifle will be Viral, Magnetic or Blast. Sure, sometimes you can break the system via odd interactions like the Xoris infinite combo boosting Atlas' Landslide and Khora's BDSM whip. but even those exploits will almost always be discovered and posted before you run into them.

If DE didn't want Warframe to be a numbers game, maybe they shouldn't have included 13 damage types with damage bonuses up to 75%. Maybe they shouldn't have included multiple stacking 200%+ bonus damage mods. Maybe they shouldn't have stacked various damage bonus sources multiplicatively. And inversely, maybe they should have thought about enemy and encounter design a little more in-depth. Enemies whose entire design consists of "has lots of health, shoots lots of bullets" are not going to inspire a lot of gameplay opportunities. Warframe could have had Division-style breakable weakoints which affect enemy behaviour and abilities. They could have had MMO style ground markings for large-scale AoEs to avoid. They could have had Diablo-style moving/spinning telegraphed laser attacks. And sure - there are SOME of these things. Occasionally, on a single enemy, whenever a developer remembers they're developing a shooter. Most of the time, however, you'll find yourself facetanking damage to your EHP and trading DPS with tanky enemies.

When you over-develop your stats to the point where they can render actual gameplay unimportant and simultaneously under-develop actual gameplay to the point where it's not that interesting even without wonky numbers, what you end up with is a numbers game. What you end up with is an old-school click-n-kill "aRPG." What you end up with is an early 2000s Tab Target MMO. What you end up with is NOT an action game.

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23 hours ago, BernieBlack said:

Its been said a few times by DE

And this was your first mistake... Never Ever Listen To DE. They cant be trusted.

Your 2nd Mistake was trying to enjoy the game. DE doesnt like it when players try to have fun...

 

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5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Regardless of what people at DE "want," the reality is what they made, and what they made very much IS a numbers game. While Warframe has the trappings of an action game, the "action" aspect is severely underdeveloped. Enemies rarely telegraph their attacks, most enemies look alike despite being wholly different units, most of their attacks lack sound or visual cues, the majority of them are hitscan, etc. We have all the tools of an action game, such as a fairly complex gunplay system and one of the best mobility systems in gaming, yet we solve nearly every challenge the game throws at us by bringing enough of the right numbers. Warframe is won or lost in the Arsenal, with the actual mission being little more than going through the motions of a foregone conclusion.

The entire modding system is one gigantic, overly-complicated optimisation problem, in most cases with a discrete set of solutions. There's not a lot of room for experimentation or preference in modding. For everything you'e modding, people have already determined a set of optimal loadouts. Use those, or you're running with severely reduced efficiency. I stopped even choosing my own damage types a while ago, because I simply use whatever I have a Primed Elemental Damage mod. Is it a rifle? OK, I have Primed Cold, so my rifle will be Viral, Magnetic or Blast. Sure, sometimes you can break the system via odd interactions like the Xoris infinite combo boosting Atlas' Landslide and Khora's BDSM whip. but even those exploits will almost always be discovered and posted before you run into them.

If DE didn't want Warframe to be a numbers game, maybe they shouldn't have included 13 damage types with damage bonuses up to 75%. Maybe they shouldn't have included multiple stacking 200%+ bonus damage mods. Maybe they shouldn't have stacked various damage bonus sources multiplicatively. And inversely, maybe they should have thought about enemy and encounter design a little more in-depth. Enemies whose entire design consists of "has lots of health, shoots lots of bullets" are not going to inspire a lot of gameplay opportunities. Warframe could have had Division-style breakable weakoints which affect enemy behaviour and abilities. They could have had MMO style ground markings for large-scale AoEs to avoid. They could have had Diablo-style moving/spinning telegraphed laser attacks. And sure - there are SOME of these things. Occasionally, on a single enemy, whenever a developer remembers they're developing a shooter. Most of the time, however, you'll find yourself facetanking damage to your EHP and trading DPS with tanky enemies.

When you over-develop your stats to the point where they can render actual gameplay unimportant and simultaneously under-develop actual gameplay to the point where it's not that interesting even without wonky numbers, what you end up with is a numbers game. What you end up with is an old-school click-n-kill "aRPG." What you end up with is an early 2000s Tab Target MMO. What you end up with is NOT an action game.

Man you hit the nail on the head. You also crushed my hope for a better game.

I love the loot. I love the number crutching and interesting synergy with abilities. I love the super powers. But the gameplay itself... yeah.

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9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

If DE didn't want Warframe to be a numbers game, maybe they shouldn't have included 13 damage types with damage bonuses up to 75%. Maybe they shouldn't have included multiple stacking 200%+ bonus damage mods. Maybe they shouldn't have stacked various damage bonus sources multiplicatively. And inversely, maybe they should have thought about enemy and encounter design a little more in-depth. Enemies whose entire design consists of "has lots of health, shoots lots of bullets" are not going to inspire a lot of gameplay opportunities. Warframe could have had Division-style breakable weakoints which affect enemy behaviour and abilities. They could have had MMO style ground markings for large-scale AoEs to avoid. They could have had Diablo-style moving/spinning telegraphed laser attacks. And sure - there are SOME of these things. Occasionally, on a single enemy, whenever a developer remembers they're developing a shooter. Most of the time, however, you'll find yourself facetanking damage to your EHP and trading DPS with tanky enemies.

Certainly, they'd not have let us do that at will. And they seem to have figured this out with Empyrean, given the conspicuous lack of elemental avionics meaning that a weapon's damage type is itself a draw, which encourages playstyle variety more (since optimising damage output will differ between factions, since you're encouraged to take mechanically different weapons). Even the Railjack enemies, whilst not exactly super taxing, do at least offer some degree of dogfighting options with regular weapons at least. Unfortunately some problems with nukes and whatever still persist in RJ, but still.

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10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Certainly, they'd not have let us do that at will. And they seem to have figured this out with Empyrean, given the conspicuous lack of elemental avionics meaning that a weapon's damage type is itself a draw, which encourages playstyle variety more (since optimising damage output will differ between factions, since you're encouraged to take mechanically different weapons). Even the Railjack enemies, whilst not exactly super taxing, do at least offer some degree of dogfighting options with regular weapons at least. Unfortunately some problems with nukes and whatever still persist in RJ, but still.

Railjack is definitely a step in the right direction. It has only 7 damage types (which I'd still argue is too many) with generally enemy-agnostic effects, it has more limited modding opportunities not freely handing out massively stacking damage buffs and it does - as you said - have some amount of gameplay complexity involved in actually fighting enemies. Unfortunately, it still falls short because it still has too many damage types with redundant effects, it still has health types with significant weaknesses and resistances and it still gives us large-scale AoE which ultimately replaces our guns.

DE wanted to use Railjack as a testbed for a potential damage system redesign, and I hope they're still planning to do that. For all the flaws that game mode has, it's still miles less broken than vanilla Warframe.

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Easiest thing to do is for every Mastery Rank level a player earns, the base toughness of the enemies they face should scale up (slightly) just to make things harder.

DE should then make an in-game credit item or forge item (with randomly cycling components) in the Market or Forge that lets these players suppress that difficulty creep for a few days.

The constant dribble of resources from veteran players should annoy the heck out of them.

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9 hours ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

Easiest thing to do is for every Mastery Rank level a player earns, the base toughness of the enemies they face should scale up (slightly) just to make things harder.

Have you tried The Steel Path ? 

The enemies maybe tougher but they arent actually Harder to Kill.

9 hours ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

 

DE should then make an in-game credit item or forge item (with randomly cycling components) in the Market or Forge that lets these players suppress that difficulty creep for a few days.

You are essentially just padding the game at this point. Having to grind a resource to brind down enemy toughness is pointless because whatever time you save making enemies die at normal speed get lost having to go out of your way to get said resource in the first place.

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The problem is binary ability and status effects. They need to program a secondary effect for every neutralizing ability and status in the game which will impact bosses, or player characters alike. Effects can be designed to interact with bosses the same way we would expect them to interact with PCs in PvP, or against the player in PvP.

One or two alternates for any untenable status effect, with either lower impact or alternate function.

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15 hours ago, Lutesque said:

You are essentially just padding the game at this point. Having to grind a resource to brind down enemy toughness is pointless because whatever time you save making enemies die at normal speed get lost having to go out of your way to get said resource in the first place.

Yup. I'm fine with the current difficulty of Warframe. If I want a challenge, I'll try and take out George Soros or COBRA.

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