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Fix Drop Tables = Fix Warframe [Pics]


notionphil
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The recent fiasco with DE banning datamined reward tables and mod drops strikes at the heart of a much larger issue. Literally, the only objective in Warframe is character progression through Hunting Mods (and weapons) - yet, there is no reliable way to do so.

 

Why So Serious?

The process of finding mods could not possibly be more frustrating and dissatisfying than it is currently.

 

There is no in-game (or reliable out of game) information about where any mods can be found, the tables themselves are horribly diluted, and unintentionally adding insult to injury; the datamined tables possessing that information can no longer be trusted due to DE's ban. This means the only objective (finding mods/items) in the game must be approached with zero certainty and no direct path to progress.

Thankfully, DE has recognized the need for drop tables in the form of a Codex. However, as I will show below, drop tables alone will not resolve the issues facing Warframe. We need a reliable, engaging way to Hunt Mods - so that the primary reason to play the game is not frustrating, but instead, fun.

How to Stop Grinding the RNG and Start Playing Warframe

The average enemy has 6-8 drops on their table! Why? Because we have over 200 mods and less than 40 enemies. Couple that with the fact that here is no reliable way to seek out specific enemies - because nearly all enemies spawn on every mission of their respective faction. So if you learn for example, that Flow drops from Corpus Techs, how will that help you? Hint, it wont.

Yes, we need a drop table, but A DE released drop table alone will do nothing besides tell you which faction to fight - you have no other control over your ability to hunt mods. This is terrible, considering the fact that Mods are our primary source of power. How do we rectify this?

We need a system that makes Mod Hunting require thought and effort instead of pure luck. Let's give this a shot...

1) Un-dilute the Drop Tables

 

Different levels of each enemy need to have their own drop table. Enemies can be separated into Low (1-20), Med(21-40), High (41-60), Champion(61-80), Elite (81+). *tier ranges warrant discussion*.

 

This will instantly un-dilute drop tables, separating the 6-8 mods that an enemy would currently drop across three different 'ranks' of that enemy. Many* enemies in game would end up with only 2-3 drops in each level range, making mod hunting substantially less pointless. A single mod might be both a very rare drop on a low level enemy AND a more common drop on an elite level enemy.

 

 

 

rGa3PeB.jpg

 

This has the incredibly helpful side effect of allowing DE to place mods in systems where skill-level appropriate players will actually find them. It even allows for incredibly rare/powerful mods to be located on only the highest level enemies (elite+) so that farming Rage for example, required a more skilled player and isn't just found by dumb luck (in most cases).

 

*Note - Enemies which tend to spawn in very large numbers (infested runners, lancers etc) would likely have more items in their drop tables as to keep opportunity for drop variance high. More rare/elite units would have smaller tables.

 

Revealing the drop tables themselves would be filled out by killing the enemies in that level range. A counter displaying how many kills are needed to unlock the next information would be displayed.

Separating out enemy levels will be helpful to reduce dilution, but without the ability to seek out a particular type of enemy, the hunt is still a wild-goose-chase.
 



2) Make each Mission have a Favored enemy type

Currently, every enemy type spawns on nearly every mission of that faction. Not only does this make every mission feel absolutely monotonous, it also makes it impossible to hunt a particular enemy. This is a lose-lose situation.

Each Mission needs to have a specific Favored Spawn. On that Mission, the specified mob type can spawn more than it normally does.

 

Spawns will replace others of their same 'class', eg: Corpus Techs aren't going to replace Crewman, but will spawn in place of Fusion Moas. The Favored Spawn rate will fluctuate from Normal Activity (no change in rate) to Increased Activity (+100%) to Heavy Activity (+200%). At Heavy Activity, patrols solely consisting of groups of that 'favored enemy' should even be found occasionally.

 

For example, a player might want the Maglev mod, which drops from Mid level (20-41) Grineer Scorpions. Perdita on Uranus might have Scorpions as a Favored Enemy, so when Increased/Heavy Activity is present, that would be an ideal place for that player to hunt:

 

EX:

JKKB1mR.jpg

Because activity levels fluctuate, this isn't a guaranteed increased chance to get a mod. The goal is to give players some control over where to hunt and make them excited about finding mods, not just point them towards a faction and make them RNG grind as done currently. This also has the side effect of being a first step towards giving missions their own unique feel - something sorely needed.

 

3) Make Finding Mods Feel Like Hunting - Not RNG Grinding

Mod hunting is one of the key objectives of the game, it should be fun, not painful! The prior two suggestions have the potential to cut down the Grind time of finding a mod you want. However, we don't want to make mod hunting a trivial task - the challenge should be in finding the Mod, not grinding against the RNG aimlessly.

Every Mod needs a listing in the Codex with information on where it's located - the information will be general, pointing the player in the right level range and faction. However, once more specific information is revealed, the codex will be updated. A player should be able to "Track" his progress towards locating a mod by clicking a "Track this mod" button in the Codex. This would create a 'Tracker' on his system map

 



EX: Whirlwind might start out saying "Hunt Lv 20-40 Grineer /  Lv 51+ Infested".
-This gives the player the idea to begin hunting on planets where Lv 20-40 Grineer reside, say, Saturn.
-As he fills in his Lv 20 Grineer Drop tables by killing Grineer, the info will be revealed that Lv 21-40 Sawblades drop Whirlwind, and his tracker will update.

 

009vLuC.jpg

 

Don't Grind Harder, Grind Smarter

We need more than drop tables to fix mod hunting in Warframe - we need to turn bad (rng) grind to good (progress based) grind.

DE doesn't put grind in the game because they want us to suffer - they do it to extend gameplay. Without grind at all, we'd all have every mod/item and have quit the game from boredom a long time ago.

 

However, RNG grind is punative and frustrating. Feeling that there's nothing you can do to get the item or mod you want isn't likely to make you want to keep playing. But Progress based grind lets you know that each step you take is putting you closer to finding your desired item - the journey might not be easier*, but you're in control.

 

*

Note that my proposal is not an effort to shorten the time it takes to collect all mods - it would make you more likely to find the mod you are looking for, but less likely to find other mods that you are not looking for. Mod collecting should be a discrete action - you shouldn't be "farming" Split Chamber and end up with Rage and Shield Flux, but no split chamber. Each mod is an opportunity for challenge/reward for a player, diluting the drop tables gives mods as random prizes instead of hard-fought treasures.



The solutions presented here are middle ground options to give players a more engaging way to hunt mods than scaling a pure RNG grindwall but still require effort and time. They put us in control of our Mod destiny, while still ensuring that we explore the Warframe universe. They also have beneficial side effects of making existing missions more dynamic and diverse, and benefiting the new vs veteran player experience.

 

Please leave your thoughts and feedback on the Drop tables + RNG overhaul below. Thanks!

Edited by notionphil
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Since planets largely limit by faction and level, clearing any planet would be horribly repetitive if enemy/level combination dropped only 2-3 different mods. 

 

Combined, your 'favored enemy' concept won't work as you expect for similar reasons.  Since you've divided them up by level range, and planets are essentially fixed level range, you're limited to hunting a single enemy in a single tier.  If corpus techs are favored on pluto but I need something Low level Techs drop, I'm SOL.

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Since planets largely limit by faction and level, clearing any planet would be horribly repetitive if enemy/level combination dropped only 2-3 different mods. 

 

Combined, your 'favored enemy' concept won't work as you expect for similar reasons.  Since you've divided them up by level range, and planets are essentially fixed level range, you're limited to hunting a single enemy in a single tier.  If corpus techs are favored on pluto but I need something Low level Techs drop, I'm SOL.

 

You'd get a diverse a set of mods as rewards during the mission, you'd just get them from different mobs instead of the same mob dropping everything. Right now there is also tremendous overlap in what mobs of the same faction drop for some reason. That's why we all have 100 Slash Dashes, Reaches, and Well of Lifes.

 

3 drops per mob x 10+ mobs per faction in each level range = each mission has 30+ drops. That's not particularly repetitive IMO. Changing planets/tiers will totally change the drops as well.

 

Especially when right now, every mission of a faction has the exact same drops, with the same rarity structure - now that's repetitive.

 

RE: favored enemy.There are 239 missions in WF - enough to give every one of Warframe's 33 enemies a favored status across every level range.

 

EG: Corpus techs would be favored on 1+ mission at every level range. Right now you have no way to even find techs, nonetheless try to get a specific of their 8 drops.

 

EDIT - I had a typo in OP - I meant each mission would have a favored enemy, not each planet, thanks for pointing out.

Edited by notionphil
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Once very important point:

 

If i am looking for one specific mod, then a codex that only gives me that information after I have found it is effectively useless.

 

OP, excellent work, I just think we need to make this point absolutely clear, or we all know what DE will do with a codex

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I don't think each mission includes 10+ different kinds of enemies.

 

And you proposed favored enemies by planet, not by mission. 

 

Almost every mob of each faction spawns on each mission. The notable exceptions are Grineer Ballista (snipers) and their light melee units, and corpus elite crewmen - those seem to be level locked. However corpus and grineer still regularly have 10+ enemies without those variants.

 

Planet vs mission was a typo in the OP, fixed. Thanks for pointing out.

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Once very important point:

 

If i am looking for one specific mod, then a codex that only gives me that information after I have found it is effectively useless.

 

OP, excellent work, I just think we need to make this point absolutely clear, or we all know what DE will do with a codex

 

exactly, this is why we need the Tracker. It won't tell you exactly where that mod is, but it will help you find it.

 

009vLuC.jpg

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It's a bit more then that.  Grineer commanders and rollers are quite rare, only found in a few select mission.  Hellions, Eviscerators, and the map blocking drones don't spawn outside of phobos at all.

 

But this is more about the relative commonality of units.  Infested runners spawn in vast hordes anywhere the infested are, and you're going to end up really, really bored with their 3 drops.

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It's a bit more then that.  Grineer commanders and rollers are quite rare, only found in a few select mission.  Hellions, Eviscerators, and the map blocking drones don't spawn outside of phobos at all.

 

But this is more about the relative commonality of units.  Infested runners spawn in vast hordes anywhere the infested are, and you're going to end up really, really bored with their 3 drops.

 

Grineer have over 20 enemy types, so I'm confident they still have 10+ on avg in most missions. (and rollers are uncommon??? :P )

 

You do make a great point though - it's quite possible that the most common enemy types (runners, lancers etc) should have larger drop tables. My goal is not to limit drop diversity, it's to make seeking specific drops possible.

 

Thanks for feedback, that will end up in the OP.

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Well, this is actually a solid idea.  In addition to the intended benefit of giving players a way of searching out specifics mods they're after, it also lets us make the fundamental mods much easier to obtain for new players by having them common in the low level drop pool.

 

I'm not sold on the Tracker.  It's not that it's not a neat idea, I just figure that the moment anybody discovers the info, it will be up on the wiki.  Suppose it doesn't hurt, but I wonder if we shouldn't just unlock everything from the get go.

 

Oh, suggestion - Allow alerts to have their own favored enemies (randomly decided), and make favored enemies on alerts even more common then favored enemies on non-alerts.  Gives us additional reason to play credit only alerts, when an enemy/level who drops something we want is favored there.

Edited by Phatose
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All this changes wont help without releasing of drop rates. Drop rates tables solve 70% problems. Removing(nerfing to the ground) warframe skills modes from drops will solve other solid 25% of problems. IMO.

So you want to say that when we had these tables we had 70% less problems, right?

 

And thank you OP, for these really good ideas. Its nice to see people actually proposing solutions rather than qqing like pack of parrots.

Edited by Khranitel
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Well, this is actually a solid idea.  In addition to the intended benefit of giving players a way of searching out specifics mods they're after, it also lets us make the fundamental mods much easier to obtain for new players by having them common in the low level drop pool.

 

I'm not sold on the Tracker.  It's not that it's not a neat idea, I just figure that the moment anybody discovers the info, it will be up on the wiki.  Suppose it doesn't hurt, but I wonder if we shouldn't just unlock everything from the get go.

 

Oh, suggestion - Allow alerts to have their own favored enemies (randomly decided), and make favored enemies on alerts even more common then favored enemies on non-alerts.  Gives us additional reason to play credit only alerts, when an enemy/level who drops something we want is favored there.

 

Agree about wiki.... However, there are two benefits of having a tracker

 

1) Many players prefer to play games without guidebooks. I think as PS4 launch happens, we'll see even more 'casual' gamers who simply don't use wikis etc. I'm a half-and-half-er. If I really want a mod i might wiki it, but if I'm just hanging around, the Tracker will give me stuff to do.

 

2) the codex revealing drop info will be the first step to a completionist type acheivement system in the game. (Grineer 18/20 Complete!). I didn't go into that here for "simplicity's" sake, but the goal is to make these things appeal to the collector in us all. Will put this in a 'addl details section' later.

 

Love your idea about credit alerts having the chance at an 'extreme concentration' of a favored enemy. Will add that in the 'details' section as well when i post it.

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We need a system that makes Mod Hunting require thought and effort instead of pure luck. Let's give this a shot...

I stoped reading on this place and downvoted cause of that. I don't want this game become another "VIRTUAL WORK". Without luck part i won't play this game, but it's just me.

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I stoped reading on this place and downvoted cause of that. I don't want this game become another "VIRTUAL WORK". Without luck part i won't play this game, but it's just me.

 

You might want to read the rest of the post then; luck is still a factor. It's just not the only factor.

 

To get what you want, you should be able to use your head in addition to benefiting from luck.

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I absolutely love the idea, but at the same time doubt DE is willing to do that. Note that I am not saying DE "cannot" do it, I just think they "will not". Reason is, I remember someone from their team said in one of their livestreams long time ago (I dont have link and I dont exactly remember the name, so bear with me for a while), that they prefer RNG system of mods because it gives casual players equal chance to get them compared to a _less-than-casual_ player.

 

Keyword is *equal* not *fair*. Fair is very subjective. Some say casual players having similar chance of getting stuff is fair, others may say a hardcore player deserves better chances cuz he/she puts more effort.

 

Thing is, no matter however you try to reduce RNG, you can only do that by some mixture of these two methods :

 

1. Adding more *time* requirement : Eg. Kill 50000 grineer for more information. This way a player has to complete one or more of a very tedious task. Not hard but tedious.

 

2. Adding more *skill* requirement : Skill can be reflex skill of player, like finishing dojo parkor room within X seconds (though RNG is still involved there), or skill can be just having better knowlege of game mechanics. A trivial example might be, bringing nyx or excalibur for mass CC if you gonna fight lots of high level railgun MOA cuz they can fire thru snow globe.

 

Now both of those ways _favor_ a hardcore player, who can give much more time to a game than a casual player can give, thus advantage in method #1 above, and he/she can practice or read wikis/guides etc to expand upon gameplay skills, thus giving advantage in method #2 above.

 

What I want to say is, if DE wants to keep the reward chances *equal* for both casual and hardcore, RNG (and F***IN LOTS OF RNG) is probably the only way, unless I am missing something.

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You might want to read the rest of the post then; luck is still a factor. It's just not the only factor.

 

To get what you want, you should be able to use your head in addition to benefiting from luck.

As for me, is already enough that DE have made ridiculously easy the way you obtain warframes parts. But i see your point, i agree with most part of your suggestions. But overal i just think that DE will fail to make this system righ and ppls start to obtain all mods they want in extremely short period.

Edited by Keetsune
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I absolutely love the idea, but at the same time doubt DE is willing to do that. Note that I am not saying DE "cannot" do it, I just think they "will not". Reason is, I remember someone from their team said in one of their livestreams long time ago (I dont have link and I dont exactly remember the name, so bear with me for a while), that they prefer RNG system of mods because it gives casual players equal chance to get them compared to a _less-than-casual_ player.

 

Keyword is *equal* not *fair*. Fair is very subjective. Some say casual players having similar chance of getting stuff is fair, others may say a hardcore player deserves better chances cuz he/she puts more effort.

 

Thing is, no matter however you try to reduce RNG, you can only do that by some mixture of these two methods :

 

1. Adding more *time* requirement : Eg. Kill 50000 grineer for more information. This way a player has to complete one or more of a very tedious task. Not hard but tedious.

 

2. Adding more *skill* requirement : Skill can be reflex skill of player, like finishing dojo parkor room within X seconds (though RNG is still involved there), or skill can be just having better knowlege of game mechanics. A trivial example might be, bringing nyx or excalibur for mass CC if you gonna fight lots of high level railgun MOA cuz they can fire thru snow globe.

 

Now both of those ways _favor_ a hardcore player, who can give much more time to a game than a casual player can give, thus advantage in method #1 above, and he/she can practice or read wikis/guides etc to expand upon gameplay skills, thus giving advantage in method #2 above.

 

What I want to say is, if DE wants to keep the reward chances *equal* for both casual and hardcore, RNG (and F***IN LOTS OF RNG) is probably the only way, unless I am missing something.

 

I haven't seen that exact statement but either way, RNG + current system still favors the hardcore.

 

If you have essentially a 0.5% chance of getting a Flow mod every time you run a Corpus mission (bc nearly same mobs are on every corpus mission) a hardcore player who plays more missions is more likely to get Flow.

 

I understand they'd want to give casual players a shot at getting the powerful mods and we'd be able to do that still - ex: rage can be a v. rare drop from a low level enemy, but rare from an elite enemy.

 

Either way, I really hope that DE's position isn't that a players time/effort/skill should have no relation to the rewards they gain in game. I can't imagine or believe they would feel that way. I know we've seen a few bumps in the road but I give DE more credit that that :)

 

Thanks for reading and feedback BTW :)

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I haven't seen that exact statement but either way, RNG + current system still favors the hardcore.

 

If you have essentially a 0.5% 

If to implement your system, 0.5% is extremely high chance it's only 200 mobs to kill. Even 0.05% is high chance in order if you kill only exact enemies that drop's this mod.

 

In example 30 mins survival is 2000+ mobs overal if you have a good party who kill them fast. Lets take in example that 50% of this mobs is same type which we hunt. With 0.05% chance to get our mod we need to kill 2000 mobs overal, that mean we need to run two survivals for 30 mins each, 60 mins total. So 60 mins to get exact mod(i think we talking only about rare mod now) that we need is top fast in my opinion.

 

The point of my chatter is to prevent too fast progress in this game.

Edited by Keetsune
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Mostly good ideas, though I would tweak a couple of things.

 

1) as was suggested, drastically reduce or remove frame abilities from the pool.  No one anywhere needs 300 Well of life.

 

2) Not sure I like the level restriction idea.  Sometimes its nice to farm things that you can just face roll, and sometimes you want to farm things that can be a challenge.  Currently, aside from a few level restricted guys (sawmen for example) I pretty much always have the choice of steam roll or actually engaging combat.  If I need a sundering strike from an infested runner,  I can run a low level infested mission or I can run xini up to some stupid level depending on my mood.  This suggestion would eliminate that choice.

 

3) Lets be honest.  If there is a codex that is only filled in after you find things, for very involved players, it wouldn't matter, because eventually it would all be on the wiki and they would just go there.  For casuals who don't use the wiki its useless because generally finding multiples isn't that important (some are due to sentinels, but not a huge deal). 

 

I would suggest a compromise of at least having them be a guild wide codex where you can upload anything you find to your team.

 

In reality I think it would be fine to unlock the codex entry for any given enemy after killing XX number of said enemy (like 100 for normal guys, 10 for bosses).  It would fill in well before you found all the rare mods (to help you hunt) but would feel like you were making progress.

 

I have also played games where the drops are by level, and when you select the level it just straight up lists all the stuff that can drop from that level, and never seen anyone complain about having too much info.

Edited by ShadowDreamer
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