Why does everyone NOT want better rewards for Hard Mode.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I don't really have a reason to fight anyone on this, I got what I wanted which was the Steel Path as it is, now i just wait.

I know my opinions are usually in the minority. I fully understand why people are upset though, so I hope DE does something to make you guys happy, because I currently am happy (once TSP drops on PS4). So I'll take what I asked for and go in my corner and shut up lol.

But I just know from experience some people are unpleasable when it comes to MMOs: they have too many "genius grand plans" and "ideas that are for "everyone" when they're clearly just for you or your buddies or your playstyle. 

Anything that's released they arent gonna like, and really just nothing will be good enough except a button to give them infinite plat and infinite currency to buy rewards on day 1 of any content release.

The only operator gear I want is in the Zephyr Prime Access, so I'll be using Kuva from Steel Path.

I think some people can't admit they're clearly addicted to kuva. I know this because I was addicted to Kuva. I got nothin to say but goodluck and I hope you find some peace. You guys dont need to horde plat, and you dont need to chase god rolls all day, they're rare for a reason. All you need is something that turns 1 mod into 2 mods, for the extra mod space.

I have 5 Tekko Prime rivens, all with different uses. None of them are god rolls. 

I think MMOs are a complicated world, and theres no real solutions to many problems. Any MMO you play, especially in the 3-6 year range, creates an odd environment, because you have people with too many conflicting ideas.

Just remember that a long time ago, some Eastern Philosophers had an idea, that if you spend all your time wanting something, you're gonna suffer.

After awhile, it's not gonna be DEs job to satisfy you, but your own.

[DeccanTraps]

If rewards are all you are interested in just take an N+1 job, work minimum wage and turn the post-tax income into plat bought from DE.

I mean that is almost certainly the optimal solution over time on a pure reward basis. Warframe, as played my Visa.

If that seems stupid boring and no fun, you've hit upon 'making it rewarding won't help' and the différance between intrinsic motivation (I want to do this) and extrinsic (Doing this gets me the thing I want).

Steelpath needs no rewards, if its fun, if it's not, it will not be improved by rewards. This is basic psychology. Giving a reward for a behaviour decreases the motivation to pursue it.

But lets say that Steelpath was balanced to be challenging as you the reader defines it, and to give real meaningful rewards you the reader who thinks this is lacking defines them?

Let us also say over a long and rewardingly arduous span you get all of those rewards, gold dust strewn beneath your feet and your brow weighted down in laurel crowns?

With those vaunted rewards you just ruined your own fun because that challenge you mightily rose too is now easier, gone, and the rewards are attained. You traded an intrinsic for an extrinsic motivation.

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Fomo doesn't work only on time limited content. When something new comes out like the Operator armor, fomo will make sure you want to hurry up and get that S#&$ as soon as possible.

Understandable, but that's still an issue on self-control that shouldn't dictate Steel Path being given rewards few people care enough about. 😛

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, DeccanTraps said:

If rewards are all you are interested in just take an N+1 job, work minimum wage and turn the post-tax income into plat bought from DE.

I mean that is almost certainly the optimal solution over time on a pure reward basis. Warframe, as played my Visa.

Real life wage-slavery is not the same as video game content where there's more difficulty with the same rewards, but you do you.

2 minutes ago, DeccanTraps said:

Steelpath needs no rewards, if its fun, if it's not, it will not be improved by rewards. This is basic psychology. Giving a reward for a behaviour decreases the motivation to pursue it.

Tell that to the Saryn and Mesa mains who mash their 4 to trivialize missions in order to maximize reward for as little time spent as possible.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

16 hours ago, BernieBlack said:

If they keep appeasing to casuals then we'll have the same issue we have now where players get to the end and find theres nothing meaningful to do, and most new players aren't going to bother getting over the wall that is this games intro.

Yea exactly, as evidenced by all the people saying "I don't like operators", which translates to "I have no intention of maxing focus." So they can then say the game is hard and ask for nerfs. 

Coincidentally, the people that dont like operators also cant do or dont like Eidolons....odd lol. They cant handle sentients....odd. lol

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

"Tell that to the Saryn and Mesa mains who mash their 4 to trivialize missions in order to maximize reward for as little time spent as possible."

Do people realize they're showing a clear bias when they say things like this lol.....No attempt at an objective or cogent argument.

We're all using the same keyboards and controllers.....no ones mashing anything......and if we're mashing....how is a Bramma or nukor user not mashing anything lol. Only people that use the 4 ability can mash, never gun users......and never anyone except Mesa and Saryn (cause other nukes dont exist)

And....if someone doesnt want rewards.....how are they trivializing it to "maximize reward"? 

it's almost like you're attributing things to people's intentions that arent there.....

what if they just want to see how they're build holds up, or simply doing it for fun since they either farmed or paid plat to acquire said frame and put the time in to farm and put forma in it.

Nukes just dont "appear" in a person's arsenal when they download the game.....they worked for it just like someone works for their 6 forma rivened Nukor.

[Troll_Logic]

I have no idea why MR points aren't awarded. They were for the first time through. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Yea exactly, as evidenced by all the people saying "I don't like operators", which translates to "I have no intention of maxing focus." So they can then say the game is hard and ask for nerfs. 

Coincidentally, the people that dont like operators also cant do or dont like Eidolons....odd lol. They cant handle sentients....odd. lol

I remember one of those doing a lot of howling when Umbra came along. They insisted that it sucks because they "hate" POE and all that goes with it. They walked right into the quest, believing that they were an unkillable god who could do any piece of content, and had that illusion stripped away from them. 

I wasn't anywhere near completing the focus trees, but at least I'd made a start and had an decent amp. I won't lie and say that it was a piece of cake, but it's my own fault for not figuring out what to do in that particular showdown (I wasn't paying much attention to the instructions) but I did get it done. Once I did it I realized what I was doing wrong and was all 🤦‍♂️

 

 

[Pizzarugi]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

We're all using the same keyboards and controllers.....no ones mashing anything......and if we're mashing....how is a Bramma or nukor user not mashing anything lol. Only people that use the 4 ability can mash, never gun users......and never anyone except Mesa and Saryn (cause other nukes dont exist)

You play solo, as we've discovered from our last conversation in another thread. I play public matchmaking, and a large number of players I tend to run into play Saryn, Mesa, Ember, Equinox, or Volt. All of them have one thing in common: Extremely high damage combined with high range AoEs that is strong enough to kill entire rooms of enemies with one cast (2 in Equinox's case).

The only coherent argument I've seen for why this is done is because they're rushing through the same boring, easy content as quickly as possible to get the rewards. I don't expect to see too many of them in Steel Path because the rewards haven't changed, yet the enemies have gotten stronger. These people have no reason to engage in this content when it's far easier to stay in regular Star Chart and just 1shot everything. Them and almost everyone else for that matter.

Also, get back to me when a cluster bomb bow and a handheld Amprex can hit every enemy in a 40m+ radius and ignore LoS. You can't compare nuke frames with high DPS guns, there's no contest.

[JackHargreav]

36 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Understandable, but that's still an issue on self-control that shouldn't dictate Steel Path being given rewards few people care enough about. 😛

Yes fomo is the smallest issue regarding Sp. I agree with that.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

15 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You play solo, as we've discovered from our last conversation in another thread. I play public matchmaking, and a large number of players I tend to run into play Saryn, Mesa, Ember, Equinox, or Volt. All of them have one thing in common: Extremely high damage combined with high range AoEs that is strong enough to kill entire rooms of enemies with one cast (2 in Equinox's case).

The only coherent argument I've seen for why this is done is because they're rushing through the same boring, easy content as quickly as possible to get the rewards. I don't expect to see too many of them in Steel Path because the rewards haven't changed, yet the enemies have gotten stronger. These people have no reason to engage in this content when it's far easier to stay in regular Star Chart and just 1shot everything. Them and almost everyone else for that matter.

Also, get back to me when a cluster bomb bow and a handheld Amprex can hit every enemy in a 40m+ radius and ignore LoS. You can't compare nuke frames with high DPS guns, there's no contest.

There's really never gonna be a game that doesnt have AOE. Everything in life progresses, that's why humans went from making spears to bombing whole neighborhoods. 

That's why games like Final Fantasy started with Fire 1 spells then graduated to Fireaga 5.

If or when DE decides to make a major change to Line of Sight. I can guarantee you there will be what's called a "Hallway race".

People will use sprint mods or speed enhancers to rush ahead of the group and kill the big spawn of enemies before anyone else because we've all played games with these rules before. 

I get it man, I go to Hydron to test out the feel of a new weapon to decide if I wanna put 6 forma in it, but I can't cause a Saryn dropped 3 E-pads in the middle and literally spammed 4, didnt even use spores lmao. Like what was his problem haha. But I understand that sometimes people dont wanna spend 7 minutes per 5 waves. 

At the end of the day, you can still go back to that same node every day all day.

I used to play a game where you played 1 instance, then you were locked out of receiving loot if you played it again. You had to buy "replay" tokens because they didnt want people just going to one raid and getting all the rewards in one day. Huge scam. It'd be like warframe only letting you play one node a day, to make people play all the nodes. Then you reset the nodes every day at 5pm or whatever.

If someone nukes your public match, just finish it quick and go back in with a friend or something, I dont know.

 

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Considering how easy normal Star Chart content is, that's a recipe for disaster if it got some of the rewards from Steel Path.

I can tell you some Regular star chart content is actually more demanding than standard Steel Path Nodes... so yeah it makes sense for someone to bum rush to unlock Steel Path Advantages only to go back and use them on things like Profit Taker or Eidolon Hunts.

Its going to depend on whats being offered and where.

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

There'd be even more reason to just play Saryn or Mesa and nuke the game at that point.

Yeah some people dont like those Warframes.

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Literally everyone can get the best mods, frames, and weapons available without any effort (unless you're gunning for primes and rivens anyway). This isn't like Path of Exile where you need to spend an insurmountable amount of currency to obtain something in order to get strong enough to handle endgame content. All you need to do is run a few derelict vaults for your corrupted mods, do some Lua missions until you get the Exilus mod challenges complete, kill a few bosses to get some of the better frames and weapons, complete some quests to also get some of the better frames and weapons (and access to rivens).

Exactly... it may not take any effort... but it will take Time... that's how getting #*!%ed by RNG Works.

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

This is real basic stuff. Surely you can do this to prepare yourself for Steel Path?

If you won't do it, that's nobody else's fault but your own, and hardmode shouldn't be nerfed to make you feel better about it.

I firmly Disagree. Feelings are the whole point behind playing a Video Game. I say nerf and buff whatever it takes to get those Good Feels Going 😛

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Well, leaving the current system as is certainly won't make it any better either. The vast majority of players aren't going to engage i7n this, veterans and endgamers alike, if there's nothing to encourage them to actually participate.

Exactly... I say let it die like conclave and vent kids. Let DE Worry about it... its not our problem. 

 

[LoneWolveYoutube]

17 hours ago, BernieBlack said:

Seriously, it's baffling. I've never seen a playerbase try to argue "Nooo don't reward our efforts. No engagement just grind."

who is saying this

[kgabor]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Calliber said:

Because by adding better rewards you effectively create a near permanent split between vets and casual, why would a vet even do a non-SP mission if the general rewards are better on SP?  

Isn't that what we are trying to achieve though?

Split these types of players so that low MR players would have nothing to complain about, because high MR's wouldn't map-nuke the same low level content they are playing.

Instead high MR's would play content with restrictions, like having to figure out better builds to bypass armor, in exchange for better progression.

The only problem i see with this is that many players don't even try to figure out these builds on their own and just copy one from a Youtuber instead, which is a cheap way to bypass this 'skillcheck'.

[Lutesque]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I remember one of those doing a lot of howling when Umbra came along. They insisted that it sucks because they "hate" POE and all that goes with it. They walked right into the quest, believing that they were an unkillable god who could do any piece of content, and had that illusion stripped away from them. 

I dont think they thought they were an unkillable god... they simply werent expecting a quest to be so demanding. After all... what other Quest before the Sacrifice required you to actually Optimize any part of your build for half decent performance ? As if Sentients werent annoying enough already.

47 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I wasn't anywhere near completing the focus trees, but at least I'd made a start and had an decent amp. I won't lie and say that it was a piece of cake, but it's my own fault for not figuring out what to do in that particular showdown (I wasn't paying much attention to the instructions) but I did get it done. Once I did it I realized what I was doing wrong and was all 🤦‍♂️

Good for you... I had no Amp and only Zenurik's Energising Dash as my Focus... 

If you want to blame yourself for DEs bull S#&$ then you do you. I most definitely will not take responsibility for having a bad experience on The Sacrifice because i didnt even know about The Quils and if that wasn't bad enough... Hunting Eidolons is #*!%ing Annoying anyway.

 

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

You got that one right. 

 

War Frame was designed around casual/poser bragging right gaming, apparel and placebo pill for insomnia gaming. 

 

If people really want challenge they would be doing other games. This is not a game that places challenge when War Frames are way too overpowered. 

Not many games succeed at being challenging. Most of the games claimed to have great challenge are just memory based in the end. They seem challenging at first but when you learn the fights they are as simple as anything. WF isnt much different, it starts out more "challenging" and then it dies off the more gear we get. We in essence have challenge in the eidolons, but when the fights are inprinted in out head we dont need to think about what we do, much like raids in WoW.

The only games I've found challenging are those I've faced other players in. I'm not sure which games you play if you find challenge.

People always seem to think that harder, difficulty and challenge are synonymous in games, they arent. What these types of games need would be harder or more difficult content, because challenging is something they'll never become. Steel Path is harder and more difficult, the old proven braindead frames dont work so well to faceroll with in there, we face far higher mob density in endless etc. a massive amount of extra ground clutter hazzards and higher damage output from the mobs.

[JackHargreav]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Yea exactly, as evidenced by all the people saying "I don't like operators", which translates to "I have no intention of maxing focus." So they can then say the game is hard and ask for nerfs. 

Coincidentally, the people that dont like operators also cant do or dont like Eidolons....odd lol. They cant handle sentients....odd. lol

You are absolutely wrong.

As I hate the operator but I still can Eidolon hunt. In fact that's I how got steel essence.

People mostly hate operators because it breaks the otherwise smooth gameplay. And focus schools are either really good or #*!%ing garbage.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

I dont think they thought they were an unkillable god... they simply werent expecting a quest to be so demanding. After all... what other Quest before the Sacrifice required you to actually Optimize any part of your build for half decent performance ? As if Sentients werent annoying enough already.

That's how I read the post. They were talking about how powerful their weapons were on other content. A LOT of grapes got called sour in that thread.

And believe me, I wasn't anywhere near optimal. I'd estimate that I wasn't sub average at that point. Since then I have completed the focus grind. 

 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Good for you... I had no Amp and only Zenurik's Energising Dash as my Focus... 

If you want to blame yourself for DEs bull S#&$ then you do you. I most definitely will not take responsibility for having a bad experience on The Sacrifice because i didnt even know about The Quils and if that wasn't bad enough... Hunting Eidolons is #*!%ing Annoying anyway.

 

I feel for you. A lot. But I know now that fight would have gone a lot more smoothly even if I was weaker if I had just paid more attention to the instructions/cues given. Yes it would have be even easier for me now that I figured out what to do and part of the reason is because I'm more powerful now, but the fight didn't actually require it based on what I saw since. 

The first phase would have been easier with a decent amp, but that's not where I got stuck. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

9 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

You are absolutely wrong.

As I hate the operator but I still can Eidolon hunt. In fact that's how got steel essence.

People mostly hate operators because it breaks the otherwise smooth gameplay. And focus schools are either really good or #*!%ing garbage.

I can say corners break the "otherwise smooth" game play as well. DE should just make long smooth hallways for us to slide through.

I can also say Ember is garbage, with no reason for forethought behind it as well. Probably isn't true now is it?

I use all schools for various situations. If you're not able, that just means you personally, think its garbage. It doesnt make it objectively garbage. Large difference.

I can say steak is garbage, but I'm sure I could find someone on this planet of 7 billion who disagree.

You're obviously welcome to your opinion lol.

[Pizzarugi]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I use all schools for various situations. If you're not able, that just means you personally, think its garbage. It doesnt make it objectively garbage. Large difference.

I can say steak is garbage, but I'm sure I could find someone on this planet of 7 billion who disagree.

Just because a few people think garbage is good doesn't mean the garbage is good. It would be like if I argued that Mk-1 Braton is good and that I use it, meaning that it isn't garbage compared to everything else that comes after it. 😛

Good for you for wanting to use something else besides Naramon or Zenurik, but the fact of the matter is that those two far outshine the other 3 focus schools for having bonuses actually worth investing in. You can use them all you want, but just like us, what you say is also an opinion. An opinion that very few people share.

[Lutesque]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I feel for you. A lot. But I know now that fight would have gone a lot more smoothly even if I was weaker if I had just paid more attention to the instructions/cues given. Yes it would have be even easier for me now that I figured out what to do and part of the reason is because I'm more powerful now, but the fight didn't actually require it based on what I saw since. 

Are you sure...

I have a 2nd Warframe account with the same Weak Setup i had on my first Account and the experience was barely any better. Fact is Umbra has alot of Shields especially at the end and Mote Amp is rubbish... its better than Void Beam but its still Mote Amp.

I replayed the Sacrifice last month with a fully optimized operator. 

Klamora Prism

Virtuous Fury

Unairu Wisp

All Waybounds

Magus Vigor + Husk

Umbra folded like a Cheap suit in literally one second. It kinda ruined The Experience for me...

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Are you sure...

I have a 2nd Warframe account with the same Weak Setup i had on my first Account and the experience was barely any better. Fact is Umbra has alot of Shields especially at the end and Mote Amp is rubbish... its better than Void Beam but its still Mote Amp.

I replayed the Sacrifice last month with a fully optimized operator. 

Klamora Prism

Virtuous Fury

Unairu Wisp

All Waybounds

Magus Vigor + Husk

Umbra folded like a Cheap suit in literally one second. It kinda ruined The Experience for me...

 

Yeah, I know. And yeah it would have been a pain in the butt, but I would be able to deal with that. I literally got stuck up a tree taking his shields down repeatedly with a 111 or something, and asking "why don't you just die already", like an idiot. I don't want to say how long it took me to figure out what I had to do. 😅 😒

I'm dumb sometimes. 😓

Now that I've done all the focus trees, have better amps, and know more about the arcanes, (and very importantly because I know that I was an idiot and should have paid attention) it would definitely be a LOT faster. 

[BernieBlack]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

If you are driven primarily by rewards, then you are always going to find yourself disappointed in short order. 

Warframe's drop rates, aren't as terrible as some players make them out to be, some are downright ridiculously high. So if you are a hardcore grinder, you'll probably rapidly find that you have everything there is to own. At that point, given that you already have everything, there's no further reason to play. 

People often moan about not having a challenge, demand that they get it, and then refuse to play with it until they are given 'proper rewards'. I personally suspect that a large number of them don't want the added challenges, but like hearing themselves sound like real edgelords, or are just parroting some YouTuber/streamers. 

Since even rewards are never going to be enough to satisfy them, the work that was put in, languishes, and is abandoned because casual players are busy doing other things and didn't really want that added challenge anyway (at least not yetl), while those players go back to being wannabe edgelords, demanding more. 

No rewards, allows us to see how many people are actually interested in the additional challenge for their own sake, and how many are really just looking for an excuse to demand more rewards. 

Given the fact that all you did was moan about not wanting the rewards, and didn't say a single thing about enjoying the additional challenge, I guess we know what camp you fit in. 😐

Yes I'm driven by rewards, because its a #*!%ing LOOTER. Its literally the existence for this genre and the popularity for games like Borderlands, Destiny and Diablo. Guess what, you can want the challenge AND the rewards, they're not mutually exclusive. 

In Destiny you get the loot to do the harder content to get the loot to do the harder content better. In FFXIV, you get the loot to do the content to get the mounts/loot to do the content better. In Borderlands, you get the guns to fight the raid bosses to get the guns to fight the raid bosses faster. And no ones complaining those games are unrewarding. No ones asking for nerfs to get their loot easier. No one's complaining about missing out because they don't want to do the harder content. 

Additional challenge "for its own sake" only gets a game mode so far. Go look at Anthem if you need an example. They added harder raids (or gambits or whatever they called it) with the same rewards as the easier raids. Guess what happened? People tried it once then left it behind because it simply wasn't rewarding. Now those modes are dead, along with that game (arguably for other reasons). Guess what's going to happen to this mode in a few weeks? 

Every game with a loot aspect has gotten this right before, but for some reason the playerbase thinks this is rocket science.

You think people will cry to DE to nerf SP? Don't listen to them.

You think you'll feel obligated to play the mode for the cosmetics? That's the point. If you don't want to do the mode, then you don't deserve the cosmetics.

You think the playerbase will be split between new players and SP players? GOOD! How many noobs are carried in this game by map nuking warframes and cry for a nerf? Look how useless ember became for a while.

I understand its a bit early to judge though. I'm just afraid if this doesn't get some attention DE will abandon this mode like every other mode they drop and we'll be left with another Lunaro/content island. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Just because a few people think garbage is good doesn't mean the garbage is good. It would be like if I argued that Mk-1 Braton is good and that I use it, meaning that it isn't garbage compared to everything else that comes after it. 😛

Good for you for wanting to use something else besides Naramon or Zenurik, but the fact of the matter is that those two far outshine the other 3 focus schools for having bonuses actually worth investing in. You can use them all you want, but just like us, what you say is also an opinion. An opinion that very few people share.

Thats no problem. In the meantime, I'll keep reviving bad players instantly with Vazarin, healing them with vazarin. 

Enjoying my 25% elemental and physical damage increase with madurai.

Lowering an enemies armor and attack strength with a single void dash.

And probably a bunch of other stuff I do without realizing. I'm not really gonna make an essay on the many uses of the Tenno schools. The wiki is there for everyone.

Toss in Vox Solaris and Quill arcanes and you have a pretty awesome Tenno. But you can only lead a horse to water lol.

[Lutesque]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'm dumb sometimes. 😓

I firmly Disagree... Warframe just makes you feel dumb because:

1) its constantly hiding information 

2) Changing the rules for no reason

3) Use one time gimmicks that just wind up getting thrown away.

For example... Why does Umbra see and attack me in void mode ? In literally ever other situation (except Harrow's Quest) Void Mode works consistently but for some asinine reason its 2 main Features are disabled without any explanations. 

I swear to god to this day I think its a bug simply because DE never explains why Void Mode doesnt work.

The same things happen in The Dead Lock Protocol.

Hidden Information, Change in Mechanics,  Throw Away One Time Gimmicks and even whole Currencies and Resources. 

Sorry but I cant let you or any one else feel responsible for how things turn out because of these Design Decisions.

6 minutes ago, BernieBlack said:

Yes I'm driven by rewards, because its a #*!%ing LOOTER. Its literally the existence for this genre and the popularity for games like Borderlands, Destiny and Diablo. Guess what, you can want the challenge AND the rewards, they're not mutually exclusive.

Atleast you admitted it... 🙂

7 minutes ago, BernieBlack said:

 

In Destiny you get the loot to do the harder content to get the loot to do the harder content better. In FFXIV, you get the loot to do the content to get the mounts/loot to do the content better. In Borderlands, you get the guns to fight the raid bosses to get the guns to fight the raid bosses faster. And no ones complaining those games are unrewarding. No ones asking for nerfs to get their loot easier. No one's complaining about missing out because they don't want to do the harder content. 

The thing with Warframe is that there actually are things people do just for fun and not for loot. Hell i didnt even know Warframe was a looter shooter when I downloaded it... for me the main attraction was the Co-Op and Ninja Flipping... i just wanted something to scratch that itch left by Lost Planet 2.

It seems like DE has accidentally made some parts of Warframe so intrinsically satisfying that its conflicting with the Looter Shooter design... it might have been an accident... who knows ?