It's not about difficulty. Warframe doesn't have a flagship content..

[AperoBeltaTwo]

32 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

When I invoke difficulty, I know precisely what I want. I want this game to demand high-action engagement based on its own core principles. Warframe is quick, flashy and really fast. Where most shooters have you plodding along the ground, Warframes pick off headshots as they sail through the air. Currently you can reduce the game to standing still (or holing the W key) and spamming a couple buttons through the majority of content with zero trade-off, which, since it is the most efficient way to play, a lot of us do. The fruits of this gameplay style really kill the engagement and turn it into a lazy farm game.

When I say I want Warframe to be difficult, I mean I want it to be more engaging, more stimulating than its low-effort-high-efficacy reductions. I want Warframe to make this cool gamefeel it's made actually matter. I want to be pushed intently toward high-speed, high-action combat in a similar way to how the Devil May Cry franchise pushes flashy combos, or the way Assassin's Creed pushes being sneaky.

Then we're mostly talking about the same thing.

[Gabbynaru]

9 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

We don't have that.

So you log into the game and you stare at a black screen. Gotcha.

Anyway, snark aside, I'm not sure you know what core gameplay actually means. So, indulge me for a few minutes and watch this video. It should start you at the relevant bit, but if it doesn't, skip to 5:48 and allow an actual game dev explain to you what primary gameplay loop (aka core gameplay) really is, cause we're not on the same level here, and we can't have a discussion like that.

[SenorClipClop]

15 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Isn't that One Punch Man in a nutshell?

It's also the premise of Deathnote.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

15 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

So you log into the game and you stare at a black screen. Gotcha.

No, I go to trade chat to get some plat, then pick a random weapon or warframe I got laying around, and go to Hydron to max it; then to simulacrum. And after a while I stop logging into the game.

15 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Anyway, snark aside, I'm not sure you know what core gameplay actually means. So, indulge me for a few minutes and watch this video. It should start you at the relevant bit, but if it doesn't, skip to 5:48 and allow an actual game dev explain to you what primary gameplay loop (aka core gameplay) really is, cause we're not on the same level here, and we can't have a discussion like that.

Dude... You're making me sad... Alright, if you insist on using a different term. For Warframe primary loop would be going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards. Our character being this space magic-wielding space ninja. This is the "primary loop". Ok? You agree with that?

1) Early Game
 Now, we log into the game as a new player. We have a whole bunch of quests and the starchart to work through. There's plenty of "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards". The rewards we get are new to us as well. We don't have any mods so everything seems useful or potentially useful. We get new gear, there's always something new because we don't know anything.

2) Mid Game
 Now, after playing for some time we got a few decent frames and can already do certain things. We're MR 9 or 12 roughly. We've already past the starchart and never doing that again, because we have everything there is to get on the regular starchart (I'll exclude SP for now). We're mostly done with the "open worlds", too, by that point, except for farming standings and all the timegated stuff like amps, arcanes and focus. We've got Kuva missions, Sorties,  Void fissures, SO, Arbitrations, Liches.

 You learned all normal starchart missions by heart by that point, Kuva missions became a routine of searching for the kuva syphon while ignoring enemies. Using your Operator to kill the syphon while otherwise mostly ignoring enemies. Slogging through the rest of the mission while definitely trying to ignore enemies as much as humanly possible. And only after that you're getting your reward in kuva with the rest of the starchart-usual junk you do not need. Oh, and if you're playing with other people, you just let them do most of the playing. Don't worry, there isn't much to do. Because there's only 3 spy nodes and only one capture target, while for some reason there's a maximum of 4 people in the squad. The mission doesn't stand a chance. In fact, if you want some gameplay, you have to run faster than everybody else and compete with your teammates for that. Because if you don't. parts of  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" are going to be missing for you. You won't be doing much even if you wanted to. 

 Sorties are good. They're fun high-level stuff you can't always do easily (especially back in the day when Sorties were just added to the game). Your build matters, your choice of weapons sort of matters, too, unless you're yoloing through everything melee-only. Enemies could actually kill you again. You've got the "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards"... Except, you can only get the rewards once a day and otherwise it's just the same starchart junk again. A little bit more credits, but you got plenty of credits by that point. ^{Oh, and if you're playing with other people, you just let them do most of the playing. Don't worry, there isn't much to do. Because there's only 3 spy nodes and only one capture target, while for some reason there's a maximum of 4 people in the squad. The mission doesn't stand a chance. In fact, if you want some gameplay, you have to run faster than everybody else and compete with your teammates for that. Because if you don't. parts of  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" are going to be missing for you. You won't be doing much even if you wanted to.} 

 Sanctuary Onslaught. You bring Saryn, you do the thing, you leave. Or someone else brings Saryn and you chill in the corner. You do have the "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" part. But unless you're farming focus, you got your Khora and there's no reason to revisit this... Oh, right, there's braton and lato vandal, too... I almost forgot about those. ^{Oh, and if you're playing with other people, you just let them do most of the playing. Don't worry, there isn't much to do. Because there's only 3 spy nodes and only one capture target, while for some reason there's a maximum of 4 people in the squad. The mission doesn't stand a chance. In fact, if you want some gameplay, you have to run faster than everybody else and compete with your teammates for that. Because if you don't. parts of  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" are going to be missing for you. You won't be doing much even if you wanted to.} 

 Arbitrations are pretty good, a kind of novel challenge for you. There's definitely "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" present here. Except you can't choose what mission you wanna play and people tend to leave early so if you die there's noone to ressurect you. Your sentinel is dead, your pet didn't even try to live. So you don't have vacuum that you've been using EVERYWHERE ELSE ALL THE TIME. And you gotta awkwardly pick up colored specs of dust off the ground by walking over them. Eventually you run out of ammo and reduced to melee only. But fighting drones with melee is awkward. Because for some reason someone thought that drones that give enemies near them immunity to all damage was a good idea. So you either leave after a while yourself or die and leave anyway. But you can exchange local tokens for Kuva and you get a lot of Endo and statues here, so since you're yet to max out every single mod you've got I guess there's some merit to playing this.

 Liches. WOW SOME OF THESE WEAPONS ARE COOL. WOW, ENEMIES ARE HIGH LEVEL THEY'RE KICKING MY Behind. OH...wait if I do it this way, it'll take less time to kill a lich. And there's so many weapons, too. Oh, and the stats aren't maxed out, so I have to do this how many times to max everything out...? You certainly got your  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards". Wait, no? You only get rewarded at the end of the quest and with a random stat weapon that you can't refuse or just chancel the lich? So you're forced to play this no matter what, else this nuisance of a lich will talk to you every time you leave any mission or log into the game? And it will steal your rewards? I mean it is starchart junk, but it's mine!... And most of these weapons aren't actually that good?...   

 Void FIssures. Well, you don't have all the Warframes yet, so you need to farm a lot of stuff. And random players bringing their random relics is always welcome. Plus a lot of the stuff they bring is vaulted and you can't get it anywhere else other than the trade chat. And trade chat is terrifying. You seem to have the "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" here...Oh, and if you're playing with other people, you just let them do most of the playing. Don't worry, there isn't much to do. Because there's only 3 spy nodes and only one capture target, while for some reason there's a maximum of 4 people in the squad. The mission doesn't stand a chance. In fact, if you want some gameplay, you have to run faster than everybody else and compete with your teammates for that. Because if you don't. parts of  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" are going to be missing for you. You won't be doing much even if you wanted to. BUT IF YOU TRY AN ENDLESS MISSION IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND BECAUSE THEY COME HERE TO LEVEL UP THEIR GEAR. 

3) Late Game
 You've got all the mods. You've got all the warframes. You don't use most of your weapons. You don't use most of your warframes.

 Sorties usually take less than 15 minutes to finish. Less than 15 minutes of gameplay for a random reward once a day. So you often don't even bother doing them.

 Sanctuary Onslaught. Why? Got all the focus you need, or don't need any more focus.

 Arbitrations. Ok. You can get Kuva here too.

 Kuva missions. Ok. You can get Kuva here too.

 Kuva survival. Ok. You can get Kuva here too.

 Liches. Why?

 Void Fissures. Why?

 Railjack? Archwing? Wtf is that? You're funny. That's not even Warframe.

 Rivens. PULL ON THAT LEVER BABY. YES YEEEEES

"going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" Is that some euphemism for the ballroom simulacrum?

By this point gameplay loop had pretty much completely disintegrated. Enemies aren't worth your time. You so much as look at them sidelong they die. All your weapons oneshot everything. And what cannot be oneshot with firearms is overkilled with melee weapons. Using abilities is mostly unnecessary. Your warframe build is another overkill that you done because you had nothing else to do and Hydron was right there on the starchart. You go into a mission, you wait for the timer, you get out. If you're rewarded with Kuva, you can roll. If you're not rewarded with Kuva you're not doing that mission. When you roll something marginally interesting, you go Hydron, then you go Simulacrum. then you Log Out (or more like Alt+F4) and wait for a content drop hoping that something interesting would come along that will make all this time wasted actually worth it. You wait for a long time. You're still waiting.

P.S. I think I'm done here. Bye.

[Hypernaut1]

4 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

No, I go to trade chat to get some plat, then pick a random weapon or warframe I got laying around, and go to Hydron to max it; then to simulacrum. And after a while I stop logging into the game.

Dude... You're making me sad... Alright, if you insist on using a different term. For Warframe primary loop would be going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards. Our character being this space magic-wielding space ninja. This is the "primary loop". Ok? You agree with that?

1) Early Game
 Now, we log into the game as a new player. We have a whole bunch of quests and the starchart to work through. There's plenty of "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards". The rewards we get are new to us as well. We don't have any mods so everything seems useful or potentially useful. We get new gear, there's always something new because we don't know anything.

2) Mid Game
 Now, after playing for some time we got a few decent frames and can already do certain things. We're MR 9 or 12 roughly. We've already past the starchart and never doing that again, because we have everything there is to get on the regular starchart (I'll exclude SP for now). We're mostly done with the "open worlds", too, by that point, except for farming standings and all the timegated stuff like amps, arcanes and focus. We've got Kuva missions, Sorties,  Void fissures, SO, Arbitrations, Liches.

 You learned all normal starchart missions by heart by that point, Kuva missions became a routine of searching for the kuva syphon while ignoring enemies. Using your Operator to kill the syphon while otherwise mostly ignoring enemies. Slogging through the rest of the mission while definitely trying to ignore enemies as much as humanly possible. And only after that you're getting your reward in kuva with the rest of the starchart-usual junk you do not need. Oh, and if you're playing with other people, you just let them do most of the playing. Don't worry, there isn't much to do. Because there's only 3 spy nodes and only one capture target, while for some reason there's a maximum of 4 people in the squad. The mission doesn't stand a chance. In fact, if you want some gameplay, you have to run faster than everybody else and compete with your teammates for that. Because if you don't. parts of  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" are going to be missing for you. You won't be doing much even if you wanted to. 

 Sorties are good. They're fun high-level stuff you can't always do easily (especially back in the day when Sorties were just added to the game). Your build matters, your choice of weapons sort of matters, too, unless you're yoloing through everything melee-only. Enemies could actually kill you again. You've got the "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards"... Except, you can only get the rewards once a day and otherwise it's just the same starchart junk again. A little bit more credits, but you got plenty of credits by that point. ^{Oh, and if you're playing with other people, you just let them do most of the playing. Don't worry, there isn't much to do. Because there's only 3 spy nodes and only one capture target, while for some reason there's a maximum of 4 people in the squad. The mission doesn't stand a chance. In fact, if you want some gameplay, you have to run faster than everybody else and compete with your teammates for that. Because if you don't. parts of  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" are going to be missing for you. You won't be doing much even if you wanted to.} 

 Sanctuary Onslaught. You bring Saryn, you do the thing, you leave. Or someone else brings Saryn and you chill in the corner. You do have the "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" part. But unless you're farming focus, you got your Khora and there's no reason to revisit this... Oh, right, there's braton and lato vandal, too... I almost forgot about those. ^{Oh, and if you're playing with other people, you just let them do most of the playing. Don't worry, there isn't much to do. Because there's only 3 spy nodes and only one capture target, while for some reason there's a maximum of 4 people in the squad. The mission doesn't stand a chance. In fact, if you want some gameplay, you have to run faster than everybody else and compete with your teammates for that. Because if you don't. parts of  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" are going to be missing for you. You won't be doing much even if you wanted to.} 

 Arbitrations are pretty good, a kind of novel challenge for you. There's definitely "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" present here. Except you can't choose what mission you wanna play and people tend to leave early so if you die there's noone to ressurect you. Your sentinel is dead, your pet didn't even try to live. So you don't have vacuum that you've been using EVERYWHERE ELSE ALL THE TIME. And you gotta awkwardly pick up colored specs of dust off the ground by walking over them. Eventually you run out of ammo and reduced to melee only. But fighting drones with melee is awkward. Because for some reason someone thought that drones that give enemies near them immunity to all damage was a good idea. So you either leave after a while yourself or die and leave anyway. But you can exchange local tokens for Kuva and you get a lot of Endo and statues here, so since you're yet to max out every single mod you've got I guess there's some merit to playing this.

 Liches. WOW SOME OF THESE WEAPONS ARE COOL. WOW, ENEMIES ARE HIGH LEVEL THEY'RE KICKING MY Behind. OH...wait if I do it this way, it'll take less time to kill a lich. And there's so many weapons, too. Oh, and the stats aren't maxed out, so I have to do this how many times to max everything out...? You certainly got your  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards". Wait, no? You only get rewarded at the end of the quest and with a random stat weapon that you can't refuse or just chancel the lich? So you're forced to play this no matter what, else this nuisance of a lich will talk to you every time you leave any mission or log into the game? And it will steal your rewards? I mean it is starchart junk, but it's mine!... And most of these weapons aren't actually that good?...   

 Void FIssures. Well, you don't have all the Warframes yet, so you need to farm a lot of stuff. And random players bringing their random relics is always welcome. Plus a lot of the stuff they bring is vaulted and you can't get it anywhere else other than the trade chat. And trade chat is terrifying. You seem to have the "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" here...Oh, and if you're playing with other people, you just let them do most of the playing. Don't worry, there isn't much to do. Because there's only 3 spy nodes and only one capture target, while for some reason there's a maximum of 4 people in the squad. The mission doesn't stand a chance. In fact, if you want some gameplay, you have to run faster than everybody else and compete with your teammates for that. Because if you don't. parts of  "going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" are going to be missing for you. You won't be doing much even if you wanted to. BUT IF YOU TRY AN ENDLESS MISSION IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND BECAUSE THEY COME HERE TO LEVEL UP THEIR GEAR. 

3) Late Game
 You've got all the mods. You've got all the warframes. You don't use most of your weapons. You don't use most of your warframes.

 Sorties usually take less than 15 minutes to finish. Less than 15 minutes of gameplay for a random reward once a day. So you often don't even bother doing them.

 Sanctuary Onslaught. Why? Got all the focus you need, or don't need any more focus.

 Arbitrations. Ok. You can get Kuva here too.

 Kuva missions. Ok. You can get Kuva here too.

 Kuva survival. Ok. You can get Kuva here too.

 Liches. Why?

 Void Fissures. Why?

 Railjack? Archwing? Wtf is that? You're funny. That's not even Warframe.

 Rivens. PULL ON THAT LEVER BABY. YES YEEEEES

"going into a mission, killing enemies with guns and abilities, extracting and getting rewards" Is that some euphemism for the ballroom simulacrum?

By this point gameplay loop had pretty much completely disintegrated. Enemies aren't worth your time. You so much as look at them sidelong they die. All your weapons oneshot everything. And what cannot be oneshot with firearms is overkilled with melee weapons. Using abilities is mostly unnecessary. Your warframe build is another overkill that you done because you had nothing else to do and Hydron was right there on the starchart. You go into a mission, you wait for the timer, you get out. If you're rewarded with Kuva, you can roll. If you're not rewarded with Kuva you're not doing that mission. When you roll something marginally interesting, you go Hydron, then you go Simulacrum. then you Log Out (or more like Alt+F4) and wait for a content drop hoping that something interesting would come along that will make all this time wasted actually worth it. You wait for a long time. You're still waiting.

P.S. I think I'm done here. Bye.

Sounds like you've just beat Warframe. Congratulations! 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Sounds like you've just beat Warframe. Congratulations! 

*rolls his eyes* 

[844448]

17 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 

There's nothing saying "flagship" in it, just a disguise of wanting higher starting level with more reward which goes against what you said about play however you want since higher level will make gear restrictions so why not be honest and straight saying what you want instead of saying anything with nothing related to what you said?

[844448]

20 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Stop trying to make "flagship content" happen. It's not going to happen and no one really knows what you mean by it... Including you

It's not even "flagship content", it's just a disguise for higher level with reward that have nothing to do with the so-called "flagship content"

[Serafim_94]

Yeah, dude, you've beaten the game. You've probably wasted several hundreds of hours doing it. Congrats. What else do you expect to get? What more should there be?

What do you do in traditional MMO when you've cleared the hardest raid and geared out in top gear? Nothing. You entertain yourself waiting for the next content update to arrive. Or you leave the game because you've beaten it. No third option.

Funny thing this thread took 6 pages to arrive to old tired "sustainable endgame" whine.

[844448]

21 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

Funny thing this thread took 6 pages to arrive to old tired "sustainable endgame" whine.

Just one question from me and I'm sure they'll become toxic, and it's just a simple sentence

"Define "sustainable content" and explain how do you make it"

No one has ever given me an answer until now that I'm starting to think they have no idea on what they want or what they're talking about

 

[Serafim_94]

5 минут назад, 844448 сказал:

Just one question from me and I'm sure they'll become toxic, and it's just a simple sentence

"Define "sustainable content" and explain how do you make it"

No one has ever given me an answer until now that I'm starting to think they have no idea on what they want or what they're talking about

 

My sustainable endgame is polymer farming. Never enough 🧂  🧂  🧂

[Kontrollo]

20 minutes ago, 844448 said:

"Define "sustainable content" and explain how do you make it"

Dark Sector Conflicts, or more generally: Clan Wars. That's the easiest solution here, honestly.

Other than that you either need people to be on a more even playing field, or you make things tiered by design.

Or well, yeah, implement some kind of slot machine and maybe expand on that. That's where we already are, though.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 hours ago, 844448 said:

There's nothing saying "flagship" in it, just a disguise of wanting higher starting level with more reward which goes against what you said about play however you want since higher level will make gear restrictions so why not be honest and straight saying what you want instead of saying anything with nothing related to what you said?

You really stopped following the conversation, did you? Oh well.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Serafim_94 said:

What do you do in traditional MMO when you've cleared the hardest raid and geared out in top gear? Nothing.

Traditional MMO have PVP, or high-level raids\dungeons where you can farm gear for sale. You get new classes and gear with random stats. Sure there isn't gonna be pvp in Warframe, and that's not the point. You can design, within the framework of the existing game, a gameplay that would accomodate for the gear and mechanics we have in the game. The fact that so many people can't even accept the possibility of it is absolutely baffling. 

1 hour ago, Serafim_94 said:

Funny thing this thread took 6 pages to arrive to old tired "sustainable endgame" whine.

Funny how anytime you raise any issue some genius would immedeately attempt to discredit it as "whining". 

Anyway, this is counterproductive. I really should go.

 

[844448]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You really stopped following the conversation, did you? Oh well.

Now, you barely give anything "flagship", you only say higher starting level with reward worth the time and such which doesn't explain what kind of "flagship" it is.

First, higher level doesn't make things suddenly flesh out gears and mechanics or can you explain how?

Second, higher level doesn't promote your claim of "play however you want", it makes strict gear requirement that goes fully opposite of your word about "play however you want" where people will shift to meta instead of playing their way

Third, what kind of reward? This is not your kind of game where you chase "5 star legendary with top stat rolls" that drops from RNG as reward that worth the time when you spend 99% of your time getting garbage until you get the one that "worth your time"

So really, there's nothing of what you said shows any kind of "flagship content"

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Now, you barely give anything "flagship", you only say higher starting level with reward worth the time and such which doesn't explain what kind of "flagship" it is.

First, higher level doesn't make things suddenly flesh out gears and mechanics or can you explain how?

Second, higher level doesn't promote your claim of "play however you want", it makes strict gear requirement that goes fully opposite of your word about "play however you want" where people will shift to meta instead of playing their way

Third, what kind of reward? This is not your kind of game where you chase "5 star legendary with top stat rolls" that drops from RNG as reward that worth the time when you spend 99% of your time getting garbage until you get the one that "worth your time"

So really, there's nothing of what you said shows any kind of "flagship content"

I wasn't giving you a flagship example in that post ffs. I was describing current player experience and responding to your "gameplay loop" point, and how it disintegrates overtime. Jesus. Higher enemy levels simply allow more space for the game's mechanics to be fleshed out. It signifies transition from early game to later stages. Increasing enemy level is common practice. I don't know what's so complicated about it.

And yes, Warframe is the kind of game where you chase a 5 star legendary with top stat rolls. There's plenty of RNG in the game that could be used for the purposes of building a flagship content around it. Including a literal slot machine mechanic. Sure, it sucks that Rivens are in the game, but since it's a reality that's not going anywhere at this point, it's something that could be worked with. 

Dude, you're not following the conversation at all, and you're just in denial at this point. I don't really know what else to tell you. Go read back our exchange... idk, a couple more times? Until you get what the conversation you participated in was about? You do you. Cause at this point you're not really saying anything.

[Ender140]

On 2020-07-30 at 11:30 PM, Gabbynaru said:

So you log into the game and you stare at a black screen. Gotcha.

Anyway, snark aside, I'm not sure you know what core gameplay actually means. So, indulge me for a few minutes and watch this video. It should start you at the relevant bit, but if it doesn't, skip to 5:48 and allow an actual game dev explain to you what primary gameplay loop (aka core gameplay) really is, cause we're not on the same level here, and we can't have a discussion like that.

What his trying to say is- WHY BOTHER DOING STEEL PATH?! Are you that dense? Yes we got a more difficult node. That great... for people who likes doing difficult nodes. But I see a lot of players not doing steel path because, why the hell would they? Oh to look like Uncles Teshin obviously. My bad. Obviously EVERYONE IN WARFRAME wants to look like Uncle Teshin. Oh not what you want? How about kuva for 15 of those those essence? The things you farmed for about an hour to get ONE of.

Steel Path isn't even real difficulty. They are just bullet sponges that hits harder. Solution? HIT EVEN HARDER.